Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: kenpen on October 14, 2008, 12:59:01 AM

Title: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: kenpen on October 14, 2008, 12:59:01 AM
Funny thing happened on the way to the high demonologists. After gathering a party, waiting around outside for everyone to get there, and painfully slugging our way through consumed demonologists, we got to the end and found the chests had already been unlocked, and parts of the loot (we'll have to assume they're the good parts) taken.

Now, I don't really mind ninja looting. What annoys me is that, somewhere along the way, the person had to have walked past us. Or, they had camped the place out and just logged on to loot the crap while we were in there, and didn't really know we were there. The second, I can forgive, but the first really annoys me. We had a decent party, only had one near-wipe, and it took us... oh, a little over two hours to get to the end of the middle section.

Yeah, maybe your character is evil and doesn't care about the party inside. But, have a little courtesy. You can always ninja it some other time, when no one's inside.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Bad_Bud on October 14, 2008, 05:49:31 AM
In my biased opinion, I think the server should implement more anti-ninja looting measures.  I do not have a problem with a rogue being able to be a sneaky rogue and sneak their way through a dungeon and do things the way a rogue likes to do things, but let's face it -- you aren't on your toes and having to deal with calming your own nerves and leaping from shadow to shadow as a real ninja or rogue would -- you hit a button and click where you want to go.  It's a mindless activity in Neverwinter Nights.

My biggest problem with ninja looting is the time difference it takes.  To be fair to the players, it should take a similar amount of time to reap the same rewards, but what we have are ninja looters being able to loot dungeons in 1/4 (and even much much less than that) of the time it takes a destruction party to loot the same dungeon, and most likely with less risk and cost.  Even then, one might argue that it's the nature of the class to let them rogue it and swipe the loot.  So be it, but realize that by spending exponentially less time in a dungeon gives the ninja looter extra time and allows them to loot two or three dungeons in the time it takes a fighting party to clear one dungeon only to find that the loot had already been swiped hours ago, and is now trashy low spawn loot.

I think we need to get past the ideas that ninja looting is fair simply because it makes sense for a rogue to do it.  It does not work well with the system of loot propagation we have on this server, and it is definitely biased, as is my view of it.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Aghila on October 14, 2008, 06:23:23 AM
Also keep in mind that the ninja looter spends 1/4 of time in the dungeon but he doesn't get any XP at all. I think we are speaking about two different concept here. Ninja looting is right for me.. is just one thing sneaky chars are good at, and its perfectly IC to do so. But what kenpen was saying, and has happened to me before, is something that goes into the OOC aspect of the game. Its OK to wake up at the inn, head to a dungeon, sneak past all monsters and get the loot. But its not OK, and I would consider it griefing, going to a dungeon, noticing theres other party and running invisible/hidden past them to get the loot. Same thing for the campers that log out/in again and again right at the chests/bosses. You are ruining the fun of other players doing that.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Helaman on October 14, 2008, 06:32:05 AM
As for Campers, DMs to try to track that - its been posted somewhere that Camping is bad and getting caught = consquences.

I'm ok on ninja looting but not when others are in the dungeon already - you want loot? join the party and take a fair split, otherwise be fair and go.

Its the equivilent of running past a bunch of adventurers tied up fighting werewolves, ignoring everything along the way to get to the big bad and his loot room and then saunter out as the bunch are cleaning up the mess left behind.

Sure you can do it but its really OOC and its terribly bad form.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Nefensis on October 14, 2008, 08:08:04 AM
Ignoring people in distress could be even a roll for a greed DP

but oocly i cant abide by people logging inside of dungeons, by the chests, waiting for the spawn to grown enough to be worth looting
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: ThAnswr on October 14, 2008, 08:38:56 AM
Also keep in mind that the ninja looter spends 1/4 of time in the dungeon but he doesn't get any XP at all. I think we are speaking about two different concept here. Ninja looting is right for me.. is just one thing sneaky chars are good at, and its perfectly IC to do so. But what kenpen was saying, and has happened to me before, is something that goes into the OOC aspect of the game. Its OK to wake up at the inn, head to a dungeon, sneak past all monsters and get the loot. But its not OK, and I would consider it griefing, going to a dungeon, noticing theres other party and running invisible/hidden past them to get the loot. Same thing for the campers that log out/in again and again right at the chests/bosses. You are ruining the fun of other players doing that.

Or living in the Barovian crypts. 
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: kenpen on October 14, 2008, 08:57:11 AM
Many dungeons will boot you out of the final areas if you log off there for more than the time it takes for the dungeon to reset. You'll get kicked to your last safe rest area.

Boss keys worked pretty well in the lich tower, but it was a pain because there were key problems and the bosses didn't always spawn.

I generally don't mind ninja'ing, but at a place like the demonologists where the last chests are pretty much the only chests, and where it's a long painful trip to get to the end, maybe it would be good to have some sort of keys for those chests, with key guardians that ALWAYS spawn and always have the keys. Or, at the very least, make the chests unninja-able by putting some magical alarms on the chests which can only be disabled with dispel magics. They're, what... level 27 wizards? Shouldn't be too hard. :-P
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Iconoclast on October 14, 2008, 08:59:53 AM
We did a term or two ago deal with the topic of ninja looting:


Ninja Looting

(http://www.angrygamergear.com/media/template/n13.jpg)

   As your players’ representatives within the Council, we are hoping we can reassure the player base that ninja looting is not as frequent, pervasive, or effortless as it may be perceived to be.  There is often a difference between perception and reality.  It is also not uncommon for entire groups of people to share a perception on an issue, such as ‘ninja looting,’ and have that perception not match up with the reality of the matter.  Players’ representatives have brought the issue to the Council, to discuss ‘ninja looting’ with the Development Team.  We’d like to share the salient points in the discussion and the outcome.
   The idea of creating a rule to forbid ninja looting was considered, but after consideration, creating a rule isn’t the route most think we should go.  The truth of the matter is that the Dev Team has good scripts and thought-out areas that are meant to either deter ninja looting or in the least make it an appropriate challenge.  A rule that forbids ninja looting, while perhaps stopping some players from exploiting certain treasure locations, would also be placing ooc limitations on perfectly legitimate role playing attempts of a rogue to loot a dungeon.  It is believable and understandable if a rogue wishes to take the risk to plunder a dungeon without engaging in a fight.  What is not acceptable though is anyone who makes a practice of logging in their rogue to loot, then logging out, and then waiting for the treasure to respawn then logs back in, and repeats again and again.  That is an exploit, that the Dev Team has scripts that do a pretty good job in preventing.  However, there are some improvements that the Dev Team is working towards implementing. 
   The Dev Team could give an explicit breakdown of how the scripts work to deter or make ninja looting a real challenge, but then that information could then be used by some to exploit the systems in place.  As your players’ representatives within the Council, we are hoping we can reassure the player base that ninja looting is not as frequent, pervasive, or effortless as it may be perceived to be.  But at the same time, the Dev Team is continuing to brain storm and revise the systems in place.  The Development Team has recognized that there are some treasure areas that are too easy.  So players can help in the process of making improvements.  If you perceive an area that you feel is too easily exploited by a ‘ninja looter,’ please send your concerns to the Council or straight to the Dev Team.  They do take this issue seriously, and your player representatives have stood witness to their continued effort to improve those areas still being too easily exploited.



If the chest area is too easily ninja looted in the demonologist dungeon, then perhaps the Dev Team would appreciate suggestions on how to make it more of a risk for the rogue. 
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Wids on October 14, 2008, 09:33:29 AM
Just a thought about dealing with the log-off-next-to-the-treasure-chest types: Would it be possible to...

A) Ensure that a boss monster always spawns next to the treasure chest around the same time that fresh treasure spawns inside the chest?
...and...
B) Insert a log-on script that disables Stealth Mode and spellcasting for the first five or ten seconds after logging in?

The way I see it, whenever your character logs off, he or she doesn't just magically vanish into the ether.  He's there sleeping, or wandering around, or reading a book, or staving off boredom some other way until the player logs back on and takes the character's reins again.  Now, if you were the Drowned Lady wandering around your treasure chest and you saw a rogue taking a nap next to your treasure chest, you probably wouldn't ignore it; you'd haul off and tear the rogue's gizzards out.  The ten-second stealth-and-magic delay could represent that.  "Welcome back!  By the way, while Keef the Thief was playing a 22-hour game of Solitaire on the Drowned Lady's treasure chest, she walked up to paste him and OMG THERE SHE IS RIGHT NOW, DROP THE CARDS AND RUN!"  *slap slap punt kill die*

That would discourage log-camping in a hurry, wouldn't it?  :P
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: failed.bard on October 14, 2008, 09:36:02 AM
We did a term or two ago deal with the topic of ninja looting:


If the chest area is too easily ninja looted in the demonologist dungeon, then perhaps the Dev Team would appreciate suggestions on how to make it more of a risk for the rogue. 

Un-nerf true seeing.  Ninja looting ends instantly.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Rex on October 14, 2008, 11:28:57 AM
We did a term or two ago deal with the topic of ninja looting:


If the chest area is too easily ninja looted in the demonologist dungeon, then perhaps the Dev Team would appreciate suggestions on how to make it more of a risk for the rogue. 

Un-nerf true seeing.  Ninja looting ends instantly.

Damn Skippy.

~Rex
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Delphinidae on October 14, 2008, 11:59:51 AM
Except True Seeing was never meant to auto spot hidden opponents, so it's not really nerfed. It's just another spell that Bioware overempowered.

d20 True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueseeing.htm)
NWNWiki True Seeing (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/True_seeing)

What can be done is have a setup like the vampire crypts to avoid the ninjaing, where a creature with True Seeing like the blasphemes (they have the overempowered True Seeing to replace a feat they should have like the oozes) that alert the others of the rogue. I don't know, maybe a special bat (with overempowered True Seeing replacing the Echolocation) that is in the same faction as demonologists alerting them since those monsters make rogues drop stealth.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Rex on October 14, 2008, 12:19:22 PM
Maybe something as simply then, as Not having a zillion ways to boost ones sneak level, up Past that which Greater Dieties of Thieves Have.  That is if we are talking about Over Empowered.  It's not so much that it would be cool to have True Seeing go back to Bioware Trump Card vs Stealth.  Stealth Isn't Supposed to be Usable without Cover, nor even in the presence of Casual Observation (per the same rules that point out True Seeings weaknesses), YET, Over Empowered Bioware, allows a sneak to stand right in front of you, Unseen (Again, aided by the God Like and Beyond Sneak Numbers the Sneaks get around here.)  Over Empowered True Seeing Standard, at LEAST allows a fighting chance against Over Empowered and then Enhanced bioware Stealth.

~Rex
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on October 14, 2008, 12:30:29 PM
To me ninja looters aren't as bad as solo'ers. Treasure respawns in timely fashion. Monsters and treasure do not.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Bad_Bud on October 14, 2008, 12:48:11 PM
Also keep in mind that the ninja looter spends 1/4 of time in the dungeon but he doesn't get any XP at all. I think we are speaking about two different concept here. Ninja looting is right for me.. is just one thing sneaky chars are good at, and its perfectly IC to do so. But what kenpen was saying, and has happened to me before, is something that goes into the OOC aspect of the game. Its OK to wake up at the inn, head to a dungeon, sneak past all monsters and get the loot. But its not OK, and I would consider it griefing, going to a dungeon, noticing theres other party and running invisible/hidden past them to get the loot. Same thing for the campers that log out/in again and again right at the chests/bosses. You are ruining the fun of other players doing that.

EXP is not any part of the issue.  In the time it takes to loot a dungeon, a player could easily go back to town and talk for thirty minutes and get more exp than they would have for levelling a dungeon.  The characters attacking dungeons (we're talking high levels) usually aren't there for exp.  Usually high level monsters get them excited, but the exp doesn't make much of a difference because the cap is so brutal -- and don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the cap by any means.

Boss keys worked pretty well in the lich tower, but it was a pain because there were key problems and the bosses didn't always spawn.

I'm unsure how the treasure looting regrowth system works, but I'm under the impression that when treasure gets ninja looted, the treasure level in the dungeon goes down.  So even if the boss chest, assumed to be the best chest, is unreachable, the rest of the chests would be looted which would lower the level of the treasure in the dungeon (unless both parties happened to be there at the same time doing this) and cause the boss treasure to suck, regardless of a key.

Perhaps a suggestion; and again I'm unsure of how the treasure system works, so I'm working on assumption here; would be to make separate treasure rates for boss chests and the rest of the chests in a dungeon.  Then there would always be a good prize at the end by the time a boss spawned.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Kaspar on October 14, 2008, 12:59:52 PM
Except True Seeing was never meant to auto spot hidden opponents, so it's not really nerfed. It's just another spell that Bioware overempowered.

d20 True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueseeing.htm)
NWNWiki True Seeing (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/True_seeing)

What can be done is have a setup like the vampire crypts to avoid the ninjaing, where a creature with True Seeing like the blasphemes (they have the overempowered True Seeing to replace a feat they should have like the oozes) that alert the others of the rogue. I don't know, maybe a special bat (with overempowered True Seeing replacing the Echolocation) that is in the same faction as demonologists alerting them since those monsters make rogues drop stealth.

This is an excellant idea, and since one of my characters is an "Epic Overgod Sneaker", I can accurately assure you this would hinder alot of ninja'looting attempts. In any case, I've seen alot of these ninja'looting threads pop up over the years and there's always the same opinions and points brought up that clash together until the thread gets locked. Not discouraging it, but if you want to see the results of some of the other ninja'looting threads look them up. I'll look for a few and post them if I can find them.

Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Ric on October 14, 2008, 01:43:16 PM
The fact of the matter is, when a party spends 2-3+ hours in a hard dungeon (Demonlogists, Alhoon, Ice Queen, etc.), and someone swipes what they should be rewarded with, that blows.  It's not entertaining and it only makes party-friendly people like me feel like avoiding dungeons altogether.  We don't gather 4-6 players together, enter a dungeon, and deal with the big challenge just to go "Oh well, someone's rogue just beat us to the loot while we were in here, better luck next time!"  It leaves a very sour taste in everyone present in the party.  I haven't been in a single party encountering this problem that didn't say "Oh well, Ninja-looting is only a fair balance to the server."  It's more like "God f***ing dammit, I can't believe this bull****!"

Once upon a time, I was told by EO to make a rogue and find out how hard it really is to ninja-loot.  Well, I have a rogue, and I found it pretty simple to enter ninja-looting mode.  All it involved was me taking all the stealth feats, getting all the decent stealth gear (by means of partying and patiently waiting to acquire the items), and hitting an appropriate base-level like 10.  I still don't ninja-loot, and I refuse to ninja-loot, becuase the amount of times I've been pissed off entering a dungeon that was swiped without me or anyone else in the party knowing, later to be screwed over, was enough for me to not bother.

To me ninja looters aren't as bad as solo'ers. Treasure respawns in timely fashion. Monsters and treasure do not.

Ninja looting is soloing.  The spawn may not take a heavy blow, but it's the same thing.  Pure greed with the goal to get gear before anyone else can get their hands on it.  In fact, I'm willing to argue that I'd rather see someone wipe out all the monsters.  Why?  Becuase I'd rather see an empty dungeon than a dungeon at maximum spawn, only to end up realizing after going through all of it that there's nothing waiting for us but a chest labled "Ninja wuz h3r3, L0Lz!"
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Fallen on October 14, 2008, 02:05:56 PM
Quote
The fact of the matter is, when a party spends 2-3+ hours in a hard dungeon (Demonlogists, Alhoon, Ice Queen, etc.), and someone swipes what they should be rewarded with, that blows.  It's not entertaining and it only makes party-friendly people like me feel like avoiding dungeons altogether.  We don't gather 4-6 players together, enter a dungeon, and deal with the big challenge just to go "Oh well, someone's rogue just beat us to the loot while we were in here, better luck next time!"  It leaves a very sour taste in everyone present in the party.  I haven't been in a single party encountering this problem that didn't say "Oh well, Ninja-looting is only a fair balance to the server."  It's more like "God f***ing dammit, I can't believe this bull****!"

I know its frustrating but why go OOC about it?

Quote
To me ninja looters aren't as bad as solo'ers. Treasure respawns in timely fashion. Monsters and treasure do not.

That is Shadow's personal opinion and mine is so what if someone wants to solo?  Not every character is fit to be part of the gang and certainly not every character can tank his way through a dungeon so he uses what he has which is his ability to do it unseen.  As others have said however this argument has been hashed over and over in the past and I know its frustrating to find empty chests but if it were me I'd be setting traps for that 'thief' and dealing with him or her IC. ;)


Spoiler: show
But I feel your frustration!  :ahem:
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Kaspar on October 14, 2008, 02:16:37 PM
Reminds me of when my Dvergeheim dwarf ran into a ninja'looter one time and obliterated them. (He was a powerful wizard)

Anyways, back on topic. How long did it take you to make and level up that rogue, Ric? It does take alot of hard work to be able to ninja'loot a dungeon in the first place, though once you overcome that it pays off. Also.

I've noticed that, when I'm quite confident I'm the only person in the dungeon, on multiple occasions some chests are unlocked and loot isn't present. Yet other chests would still be locked right next to it. Could be something like that, and if it isn't then there isn't really any progress being made by flaming the alleged ninja'looter that commited the insidious crime.

Quote
Spoiler: show
But I feel your frustration!
 


Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Ric on October 14, 2008, 02:34:37 PM
Actually, it takes just as long as raising any other character. 

There's no added difficulty to raising ninja-looter and raising a normal party-goer.  It's the same game of waiting.  And there is no pay-off to this.  It's "Congratulations, you now have the option to be a douche to your community or you can continue to party."  Raising my last characters to level 15 and raising this one to 15 with the ability to ninja-loot (He's been able to ninja-loot since level 10, mind you) didn't show any difference of difficulty.  And what payoff are you talking about?  The payoff of letting everyone know that I've obtained sick loot, therefore I'm somehow an awesome guy?  Or the payoff of letting everyone know that I'm now ninja-looter #xx, therefore they best beware the utter annoyance that is my awesome ability to right click on a chest, click 'unlock', wait for the small hide/ms penalty to vanish, and then open the chest and slowly (repeating the penalty-wait deal) pick items out of a chest?
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: kenpen on October 14, 2008, 02:45:20 PM
Giving Boss Keys to the uber chests at the end would preserve at least some of the chests for people who bring a party. Like the last chest at the pit fiend. And the last chest at the alhoon.  Give the head demonologist four keys, one for each chest. The loot there is retardedly easy to swipe anyway, with the demonologists tending to clump in the final room more often than not. There are plenty of nice ninja-lootable dungeons to raze. The hard dungeons ought to be, well... hard. It's good the demonologists have loot now, but it sorta defeats the purpose of putting it there as a reward for the work, when the work of ninja'ing it involves nothing.

Here's a question I've always wondered: why does opening a lot of chests in invisibility break the invisibility after it rolls a failed move silently roll? That really makes no sense. Being loud in invisibility, ie walking around without sneaking, doesn't normally break invisibility, but a lot of chests randomly have it set up to force the roll. Not all chests, mind you, but a lot. That makes absolutely no sense. I know it's intended to prevent even easier invisible ninja looting, but I'd rather see that carried over to actual stealthed looting. Compared to bashing chests (in order to promote partying) stealthed ninja-ing hasn't really taken the same hit. You figure, an unlock is a "take 20", and only a minor negative (-10, I think?) to the stealth roll to unlock. Compare that with having to roll, over and over again, to bash a chest, almost ensuring the contents are broken, especially when there's nothing to boost strength rolls. The crowbar doesn't really help, still breaks items unrealistically, and is generally 15 lbs while the good sneak gear gives much larger bonuses.

While catching looters might be fun, it's ultimately pointless. They're not going to be likely perma'd, and that just means eventually they'll just visit pain and destruction later on the offending PCs... and, then go back to doing it later.  And one would have to constantly provide the threat of catching them in order to keep them from doing that. A bunch of PCs, constantly helping monsters protect their loot from other PCs. That's silly. ;) Those level 27 consumed demonologists can protect their own loot, darnit. That's where the threat of being caught should come from, really. The actual monsters who can beat the snot out of most PCs, but who oddly enough can't manage to see sneakers despite their uber spells, demon-eyes, and everything else.

Some dungeons respawn the loot back to level, after ninja'ing. Some dungeons the treasure and the spawn rates seem to be on different tracks, so once it's ninja'd you're screwed in terms of getting the treasure back to a high level. The dungeons have been changed a lot, so it may vary even more now.

In the end, ninja looting is fine by me. Makes sense for sneakers to do it. It hasn't had nearly the same focus to prevent solo'ing that the bash system has had, though. And the boss chests should be better protected, especially when you've got all these priests and wizards who should be able to cast magical wards that go off when someone walks over them.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Kaspar on October 14, 2008, 02:55:29 PM
Actually, it takes just as long as raising any other character. 

There's no added difficulty to raising ninja-looter and raising a normal party-goer.  It's the same game of waiting.  And there is no pay-off to this.  It's "Congratulations, you now have the option to be a douche to your community or you can continue to party."  Raising my last characters to level 15 and raising this one to 15 with the ability to ninja-loot (He's been able to ninja-loot since level 10, mind you) didn't show any difference of difficulty.  And what payoff are you talking about?  The payoff of letting everyone know that I've obtained sick loot, therefore I'm somehow an awesome guy?  Or the payoff of letting everyone know that I'm now ninja-looter #xx, therefore they best beware the utter annoyance that is my awesome ability to right click on a chest, click 'unlock', wait for the small hide/ms penalty to vanish, and then open the chest and slowly (repeating the penalty-wait deal) pick items out of a chest?

I never implied that there was an added difficulty to raising up a sneaking character, merely that it doesn't happen over night. You can level up a Mage to level 10-15, the same way you can raise up a sneaker, and they can do what a sneaker can more effectively. I can understand how pissed you may be, but your comments are getting a little brash and offensive Ric, tone it down a little. It's just a game, however irritable it may be at times.


Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: ThAnswr on October 14, 2008, 03:04:55 PM
And this is why most servers have rules against ninja-looting.  This server just doesn't happen to be one of them. 
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Fallen on October 14, 2008, 03:05:10 PM
Quote
While catching looters might be fun, it's ultimately pointless. They're not going to be likely perma'd, and that just means eventually they'll just visit pain and destruction later on the offending PCs... and, then go back to doing it later.  And one would have to constantly provide the threat of catching them in order to keep them from doing that. A bunch of PCs, constantly helping monsters protect their loot from other PCs. That's silly. Wink Those level 27 consumed demonologists can protect their own loot, darnit. That's where the threat of being caught should come from, really. The actual monsters who can beat the snot out of most PCs, but who oddly enough can't manage to see sneakers despite their uber spells, demon-eyes, and everything else.

Good point, it really would be a tough situation to actually carry out IC as you said the offending pc wouldn't really be permanently killed in that situation.  I'll bring up this at our next dev. meeting as some of your suggestions here are pretty good and may help us find some semblemance of a balance. :)
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Rex on October 14, 2008, 03:19:54 PM
If I had a dollar for every time I was Ninja Looted or Out Grinder-ed, by someone that says they "Never Do that!", I could rename myself Warren Buffet.  Brash or Offensive or not it's Annoying, to Log in, look at the Player list, spot three names, and KNOW, that EVERY treasure chest, garbage heap, sarcophagus, and box in all of Barovia will be Empty.

Just look at the XP cap threads and notice that you will see, the roughly paraphrased "I just go Dungeoning for the Loot." statement.  A lot.  In a Lot of threads.

Thing is, You NEED, certain Stuff, to go Certain Places, to prevent from an ooc point of view, complete Boredom of being chained to one Spot.  Everyone, wants to advance and Grow, and in order to do that it requires a mix, of the Talk RP, the Rol Crawl RP, and the Grind RP (YES, Hacking up a monster is part of the Role Play, for certain people that are PLAYING THAT ROLE).  Unfortunently, if you Can't Get the Stuff, you are Stuck in a Rut.  You Can't get the Stuff, because a Certain Minority of People, Either Camp, Ninja Loot, or Strip Mine the "Dungeons" on a regular cycle like clockwork, so that those folks (like myself and a few others) that can't be in game 24/7, never ever ever see anything of value.

Ninja Looters prevent that from happening.  So do Grinders and Campers.  Killing them, probably doesn't do anything for the issue in the long run.

Outing them in public on the shout channel, that tends to shake them up a bit.  Some Legit Perma Death would also solve this issue, If you didn't have Infinite Get out of Death free, a Lot of the Supreme Powered Ninja Looters would wither away due to attrition, or perhaps never reach the skill level required to be such a PITA in the first place.

~Rex


Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: EO on October 14, 2008, 03:45:13 PM
Is the issue ninja-looting or the balance of ninja-looting? What I think would be logical is that it'd take a high level rogue to ninjaloot a high level dungeon, is that the case?
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Rex on October 14, 2008, 03:49:16 PM
Is the issue ninja-looting or the balance of ninja-looting? What I think would be logical is that it'd take a high level rogue to ninjaloot a high level dungeon, is that the case?

I think it's an issue of Both.  Ninja Looting and it's associated Cousins disrupt the static balance altogether.

~Rex
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: kenpen on October 14, 2008, 03:54:02 PM
I think the issue is more the balance.

If you've got a high level party, there's still a chance of wiping in a high level dungeon. It doesn't take any longer to build a sneak and level it than it does any other character, but with a high level sneak, there's no chance of actually getting caught ninja'ing currently. In the coal caves, you might have a chance of getting knocked out of stealth. I'm not sure. But, otherwise, not much chance of getting caught.  You get a -5 penalty for removing an item from a chest, right? And it goes away after a few seconds if you don't remove any items and let it wear off. -5, against sneaks with 50+ isn't really a big deal.

Throw some sounding wards around the chests if there are high level wizards involved. Throw some boss keys on the main loot. With all the efforts made towards insuring people have trouble solo'ing to get the best stuff, and beating the bosses alone, or cracking the chests alone with their massive troll strengths,  it seems a bit odd that the stealthed looting aspect was so overlooked when the newer dungeons and remodels were put into place.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Nefensis on October 14, 2008, 04:48:10 PM
I dont mind if someone does the whole dungeon, but if i personally take my time and effort to do a dungeon, i like my reward at the end.

Quote
Insert a log-on script that disables Stealth Mode and spellcasting for the first five or ten seconds after logging in?

This is a great suggestion, also if you log out while in stealth mode you re-log in stealth mode, a script to disable that would be nice.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: JayeAeotiv on October 14, 2008, 05:12:11 PM
Everyone must now listen to the song Let It Be by the Beatles. 

Some people ninja loot, some people don't.  If you can spot the ninja on your way in, all the better.. you can kill, threaten, or rob him/her.  I don't think boss keys are the answer, I mean if there's a key hole there should be a chance to pick it.  Could make a boss key AND make the chest harder to pick.  I do think that placing traps around the chests and other such things to make getting to them harder for someone in stealth might be sufficient.  Think Indiana Jones, he is definitely a ninja looter, and it sure isn't easy to do.

I honestly don't feel anyone's pain though. Most of my characters are constantly in poverty and all.  I imagine most of the loot you all are talking about is way beyond anything I've ever seen as far as value goes.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Rex on October 14, 2008, 05:22:52 PM
I dont mind if someone does the whole dungeon, but if i personally take my time and effort to do a dungeon, i like my reward at the end.

Quote
Insert a log-on script that disables Stealth Mode and spellcasting for the first five or ten seconds after logging in?

This is a great suggestion, also if you log out while in stealth mode you re-log in stealth mode, a script to disable that would be nice.

Easier to do one that simply, doesn't let you save location in a Dungeon.  I think some one else brought up something along those lines.  Log Out, you log back in at your last safe location.  At least then it adds some effort as a repercussion.

Been standing outside a Dungeon Waiting for the Group to catch up and had people Log in and CHARGE!  (Yes it was screenied and reported).  Logging back in at Safe Locations would resolve a chunk of that.

~Rex
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Bad_Bud on October 14, 2008, 05:23:04 PM
Is the issue ninja-looting or the balance of ninja-looting?

Balance.  I think it would be a shame to place strict rules on acts like ninja looting.  Ninja looting will always happen; it's only disappointing because of how easy it is to pull off.

What I think would be logical is that it'd take a high level rogue to ninjaloot a high level dungeon, is that the case?

That is not the case, in my opinion.  A mid to high level rogue (10-15), as already pointed out, can loot the highest level of dungeons.  A level 20 fighter, however, no matter how good his gear is, most likely cannot solo the demonologists and reach the end without getting their ass handed to them.  If they did manage to reach the end, it would either take around 50 healing potions or so many bandages and rests that the dungeon would take forever... And even if this solo fighter did reach the end, they still cannot open the chests and get the loot.  I understand the need for partying, and with the most recent changes to the server I don't take my character on solo ventures anymore because it's not worth it, yet still somehow a rogue can spend 30 minutes in a dungeon, assuming that's how long it takes to walk across the dungeon in stealth mode, and walk away with all of the marbles.

Keep in mind that when I have soloed places with my fighter, I often spend 2-3 hours doing only part of a dungeon, because it's so difficult.  I usually walk out of that place moderately rewarded but damned exhausted (at least I used to feel moderately rewarded back when I could bash chests open).  I do not see the same level of challenge to successfully complete this task with a rogue.  Walk in, open, walk out.  Fast, easy (all the player is relying on is the build, not on any serious amount of character control), and yet more rewarding than the poor fighter.

I do not mind the changes that prevent me from soloing, because I have gotten more interaction with other players and characters because of it.  I wish the same went for rogues, so that they are not able to do a complete loot on their own without massive amounts of trouble.

=====================================

I would like to restate one of my ideas, and then introduce a few others:

Boss Chests
I think boss loot should progress separately from the rest of the loot in the dungeon.  Even with constant grinding and ninja looting, once the dungeon hit a level high enough to produce a boss monster, anyone with enough brawn to take him down would still be able to be rewarded.

Minibosses?
I think it would be nice if a few minibosses were also set up in the same way, also having their own chests.  This would allow small parties of a moderate level with no lockpickers present to hit up some dungeons and walk away feeling accomplished.  Minibosses, of course, would not make sense for every dungeon, but would make sense for a few, I feel.  The lich tower already has minibosses set up, but they are easier than the base monsters in the place and their keys don't work.

Looting Difficulty
There are some areas, such as the shadow cave, that can be ninja looted without even needing a rogue!  I hope there are measures that can be taken to help ensure that this isn't possible.

There was one instance where my small rogueless party of moderate level characters and my high level fighter got delayed and ended up not being able to have enough time to clear the dungeon before I had to log off.  One of the players had died because they had looked at one of the treasure piles while getting mobbed by shadow spiders, and told me that there was a magical shield and a nice pair of boots there.  So I guzzled an invisibility potion and a potion of cowardice, and I was able to get the treasure without any trouble.  I could have hit the whole place, and the uber monsters I don't have a chance at being able to kill wouldn't have been able to stop me from doing it, all because the loot is on skeletons.  So... even a fighter and a potion of cowardice can perform ninja looting.

I would bet, and could possibly prove if someone gave me access to a character with a high enough lockpick skill to pull it off, that I could loot the last four demonologist chests without using stealth at all.  They take a lot of time perparing before they fight, and in that time a player could open a chest, swipe the treasure, and haul ass back out of the area until the demonologists reset all of their spells, at which point you could go back and do it again... it would take a bit of time to do this, but it wouldn't even require the ability to hide.

Finally, an example of a reasonable change specific to the demonologist temple:


I think those specific suggestions for the demonologist temple would satisfy both parties.  Ninja looting would still be something that could be accomplished, yet not something that would ruin the dungeon for another party.  It does not prefer one side over the other, and still manages to give the greatest rewards to those who go in with diverse parties.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Anarcoplayba on October 14, 2008, 05:27:53 PM
Ok, just my two cents.

This is a game. I understand that the developers may direct the players experience to some extent, but I don't like seeing the game forced in one direction.

What I mean: Everyone LIKES one class more than others. If I want to play a rogue, I know that I'll receive a helluva skill points, d6 dit die and a crappy attack base.

If I want to play a fighter, I know I'll get d10 HD, and tons of feats.

If I play a caster I know that I'll receive d4, but I also know that, if I can keep the distance, I can put the world on fire.

If the developers nerf the spells, give extra feats for every class or make the dungeons umpillageble "for the sake of partying" all they will get is the same database of players who can party with consistency improving.

That's what you want? Fine, but people like me who have day jobs, and other problems to solve will simply feel unmotivated to play the game. See, I'm from Brazil and and started to play with another friend. For lot's of personal reasons he reached level 12, while I'm still at level 8. His dungeon is not my dungeon, and if I want to be an useful player, I must be able to solo to try to catch up to him.

If I'm a rogue and I want to play I must:

1) Solo as I can (what pretty much means Ninja looting).
2) Be prepared to play this game until 3:00 AM, and spent my day as a zombie in front of my computer at my office.
3) Make an "outstanding" roleplay of "hummmm... I see you are going to the alhoon... would you mind if me, a strange you never met follow you to somewhere I could easily backstab you and steal your money and weapons?" "Of Course!"

Well, I really expect that everyone here have other priorities here that makes nº 2 stay out of question.

Now we have to priorize between 1 and 3.

And no, I don't play a rogue that goes ninja looting (tough I pretty much solo).

My point is, all I see is people pointing fingers to the other side ("the game is too easy for casters", "Oh, they ninja-looted my dungeon!", "Oh, the box of herbs is too pricy, there is people earning money just for walking!")

I wasn't planning to talk about it now, but anyone choose the class they want to roleplay. If you want to be a treasure hunter, go ninja looting! If you want to be a undead hunter, go cleaning the catacombs! If you want to be a hunter, go be a ranger and hunt werewolves! The game needs hard core areas to party, but the game also needs easy areas to solo, because not everybody can have a schedule to play with other players (I try to log at least one houer each day just to not be left behind).

And, since I touched the subject, in my opinion, changing the rules to adress a class of players will just make the server restricted: If you can play consistently with a broad schedule to party, then you will develop your character. If not, you will be always behind other players. It's a matter of choice: you may create a server friendly to those who play to have fun and can't dedicate themselves that much, or you can create a server to those who can schedule big dungeon crawling parties.

If you chose the later, you will also have the advantage of reducing the lag, since players like me will feel compelled to abandon the server.

And this rules/expectations things are specially true regarding spells and stuff. I was SO happy when I discovered that summon creature lasted in round, not in hours, after creating a Cleric of Animal domain. And I'm SO happy to see that turn undead only tickles most of the undeads. And I'm SO happy to see that the buffs (bull's strength, specially) was nerfed in its duration too. It's all a matter of expectations: set them and DON'T CHANGE.

It's simply frustrating to creat a PC oriented to one purpose and them discover that he is USELESS just because some people decided to rebalance the game and change the rules in the middle of the game.

(In the end, my two cents sere more like ten dollars).
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Aghila on October 14, 2008, 05:43:20 PM
Why not make bosses drop better loot and lower the loot in chests? Ninjas would still be able to get some loot, but there would still be a nice reward for those killing the bosses.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Wids on October 14, 2008, 05:48:18 PM
I dont mind if someone does the whole dungeon, but if i personally take my time and effort to do a dungeon, i like my reward at the end.
We are all little white lab mice, the dungeons are our mazes, and if we poke our way through to the end of the maze, then someone had better damn well give us our effin' cheese.   :x

Quote
Insert a log-on script that disables Stealth Mode and spellcasting for the first five or ten seconds after logging in?

This is a great suggestion, also if you log out while in stealth mode you re-log in stealth mode, a script to disable that would be nice.
Nef alone acknowledges my greatness.  The rest of you are all Philistines!  :P

Everyone must now listen to the song Let It Be by the Beatles. 

Some people ninja loot, some people don't.  If you can spot the ninja on your way in, all the better.. you can kill, threaten, or rob him/her.  I don't think boss keys are the answer, I mean if there's a key hole there should be a chance to pick it.  Could make a boss key AND make the chest harder to pick.  I do think that placing traps around the chests and other such things to make getting to them harder for someone in stealth might be sufficient.  Think Indiana Jones, he is definitely a ninja looter, and it sure isn't easy to do.
Indiana Jones usually gets the loot after alerting every Thuggee guard and setting off every trap in the place.  That's hardly a ninja looter.  :P

But the super-high lock DC would be more realistic than the key-only "specific key" approach, but ten will get me twenty that at least half the ninja looters who have uber stealth have uber Open Locks as well.  Why not just sit the chests right on top of a big Deadly trap with a really high DC to disarm and/or a script which allows the trap to return after a few seconds (which is something I did with multiple Slow traps in that one module I whipped up)?  Then add a script to disable the trap for, say, 10 minutes upon the boss' death.  And for an added anti-ninja bonus, surround the trap and the chest with guard monsters and make the trap a kind which won't harm them (poison gas trap/construct or undead guards, fire trap/fire elementals, et cetera).  While the trap's whammying the looter and kicking him out of stealth, the guards are shrugging off the trap's nasty effects and moving in to deal with the interloper.

Traps can be our best friends here.   :twisted:

Easier to do one that simply, doesn't let you save location in a Dungeon.  I think some one else brought up something along those lines.  Log Out, you log back in at your last safe location.  At least then it adds some effort as a repercussion.

Been standing outside a Dungeon Waiting for the Group to catch up and had people Log in and CHARGE!  (Yes it was screenied and reported).  Logging back in at Safe Locations would resolve a chunk of that.
I believe it is possible to make certain areas No-Save locations, so I have to go with Rex on this idea too.  Back to my idea about logged-off characters not vanishing into the ether, this could be explained as "the monsters caught you while you were sleeping on the boss' treasure chest, so you hauled ass out of the dungeon and didn't stop running until you were in the next county".  :?

As long as something gets done about the ease of ninja-looting, I'm all for it.  Empty treasure chests after a mile-long battle = suckage.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Nightmare on October 14, 2008, 07:32:08 PM
Drop a clove of garlic, or a single gold coin at the entrance to a dungeon you just Ninja'd.

Gives people who do the dungeon all the way through the chance to realize, oh, hell, its been Ninja'd. At least we didn't waste 2 hours and a near-wipe going after a possible reward.

I mostly dungeon for the fun, the excitement.. and because I get dragged into it >.>

But as wids said, I like my cheese.

The only problem I have with Ninja looters is the plain lack of courtesy most have for anyone else, up to and including, sneaking past the group while they are in a fight and getting the loot, then leaving. If you see a group fighting, hey, unstealth! Join the party. You may not get ALL the treasure, but you might make some allies/friends and still get some nice gear.
Title: Re: Systems - Ninja Looting
Post by: Chrisman888 on October 14, 2008, 08:09:11 PM
This may be off topic, but I dono who the heck thinks leveling a rogue is the same.

I'm around level 15 Rogue type I think now, and ever since then I have had to party up -all- the time. The only way one could lvl up easy with a rogue is if they went Shadowdancer and abused HiPs over and over.

I also have a dwarf fighter at 10 now I think, and I leveled him way more faster, and easier. I could solo the orphanage  without a problem.. and gain -allot- of exp, on my lower level times.