Post by: dutchy on August 15, 2008, 02:01:49 AM
factions are more organised and stronger thus harder to hit.
vardo example.
kill a vardo and expect to be permad end of the week, factions of hunters and experts at killing
but a faction can get to strong, all do respect its nice to see vardos beeing active but if they dominate to much people will have no room to team up and reteliate. (like the trade war vardo rule and boss crafters around atm if not they die)
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 02:25:04 AM
As a Vardo Captain for about a month now, I haven't given a single hit on any player. The only player that ended up being perma'killed was an infaction player, and it had alot of backing to it. (Well, I'm not including Bounties. Those are fair game. :D)
We haven't threatened any other traders (Non-Vardo) at all, and we've been working to be more cooperative with them. Hell. Lucian told one of the Merchants he saw, when they asked if the Vardo minded if he sold or not, that he didn't care. We're not oppressing anybody, in my opinion, it's all in your heads. :)
The Vardo has been in shambles for awhile, and it's just now starting to build back up, and it can grow to have some power if somebody wields it right. Though it just matters on how this power is handled, and right now, I don't personally see it being misused. We don't want to off any players right now, and I'd rather resort to other means. We actually have alot of neat events and plans being made that'll be entertaining to everybody. ;)
Post by: Nefensis on August 15, 2008, 02:37:07 AM
Post by: k_moustakas on August 15, 2008, 03:24:56 AM
I'm going to let my feelings roll and speak my heart. So if you don't want to read a lot of frustration, don't read further!
Spoiler: show
Actually, after posting all this, I feel as if a huge weight has been lifted off me. I'm not going to post again anything vardo-related and I'm going to keep quiet. See where the game will take us next. Please forgive me for writing with passion about a game I love.
Post by: Nefensis on August 15, 2008, 03:36:31 AM
OOC frustration is understandable but if the server comes just that, then it's not fun anymore. Leave the anger in game, don't let it torment you in your enjoyment of the game.
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 03:42:08 AM
Maybe all this is pent up feelings from what was happening before this last month.
This may very well be so, but either way, that's not the point I was making. People are/were pointing out what the Vardo was doing now, so I discussed the here and now.
Also. I'd strongly discourage planning the demise of a Faction completely OOC, or going through OOC methods to see it through IC. Just doesn't bode well with me. Always try to keep things IC at all times, no matter how frusterating they may be. If you start doing that, then what's the fun for the Vardo PCs? None. We had no way of getting information on a possible "War" as you liked to call it, because all of this was just planned OOCly. The Vardo rule on gathering information and using it.
There's a new generation of Vardo I guess you could say. Put your OOC frusterations and hostility about the Vardo behind you, and try to move on. Cooperating with the Vardo is by far more beneficial then going against it.
Cheers. :)
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 04:07:45 AM
There's a lot of paranoia going on fueled by ignorance and misconceptions (or misguidance by a few individuals). People often lack critical perception and tend to take things for granted. A situation that happens all too often on POTM (and in real life as well) is when someone hears a story from another player and takes it for granted without questionning it. There's always two sides (or even more) to a story and only picking one and going along with it (and often exagerating it), results in drama and incomprehension. How many times have you asked the other person in a conflict how he felt or what his motivations were? People instead jump the gun and assume a lot then tell others these assumptions that are turned into 'facts' that are then shared until they become some "truth" when initially it may have been a nothing but a small misundertanding.
This post has alot of Merit to it, and it deserves to be re-posted in this Topic. :)
Post by: engelfire on August 15, 2008, 04:10:38 AM
i asked dm's, but they didnt know anything becouse it was fully player ran situation. ic'ly vardo never interrogated vino, he was just dead in the basement for almost a week (yay) then ressed, patted in the back and escorted to guards, constantly gagged to prevent him from speaking what is happening and his own version of the story. maybe there were some time table issues but hey... many times i was online with vino as ghost, many vardos were online and pretty much idling or afking, ignoring my pleads to go onward with the situation
its silly to say imo, that you can go against vardo ic ingame, sure we can do that but, i think we all know what will happen. the basic vardo formula for this kind of things is that first time offenders will spend some time in their basement, being tortured. second time offenders are killed and fucked beyond imagination that the player gets frustrated and shelfs the character... woah see ? you dont need dm to perm anyone, all it takes is enough shit against someones character. in that kind of situations it is very hard to remain happy ooc and it is inevitable that there will be grief.
im sure many good rp'rs have been there, and of course eventually we get over it. note that i am not angry at anyone ooc, nor ic. what has happened, is in the past and go on with this rp he is in now *shrugs*
but to say that vardo doesnt perm people, is utter bull**** and everyone knows that.
edit to add:
vardo's arent supposed to be murderers, they are professional merchants who get to fill their clients needs. for now, vardo is doing verzi's job
Post by: Nefensis on August 15, 2008, 04:22:34 AM
Not everything always goes as planned, PCs go missing for a few days because they dont log in, it happens. All i can promise is whatever happens while im in the vardo, nobody will end up floating in mid air while dead for no reason. Denalie died for a shitty reason too and i decided instead to make sure that wouldnt happen again. I want this server to prosper and it wont happen is no one makes a OOC effort, because yeah, there is a LOT of effort in making things work, i bust my ass to do this work. BTW we're hiring if someone feels like making a non emosneakfreak that wants to play merchant. I could use the help.
Post by: engelfire on August 15, 2008, 04:34:30 AM
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Vardo might lead to perm players, yes, let's compare the Vardo the mafia here a moment. They call hits, they make money legally, illegaly, they muscle up competitors etc. and too they have the muscle they need to backup their barking. if a character is angry at that, well maybe he needs his own muscle to backup his barking, if not, he needs to back down with his whine. See where im going with this?
yeah of course i understand that, i know lot of vardo cause vino used to be one. but i guess things could be finetuned bit you know ? if vardo's actions cause so much ooc grief to large number of people, then i think it has nothing to do with gossip, especially since i doubt that people would just rally up against vardo unless they have good reason to do so.
vardo has already taken a wrong path when all this
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They call hits, they make money legally, illegaly, they muscle up competitors etc.is rather public. only thing that nonvardo people should see is their public legal moneymaking things. sure theres lot vardo keeps hidden which i wont mention here naturally. but i guess they have earned their bully reputation. perhaps in time they can earn that merchant reputation again and people will forget the nasty things about vardo.
it also tells others how corrupt the officials are when they allow such open criminal organisation to run free. i speak ic-wise now becouse im sure majority of characters know abouit vardo's reputation yup
Post by: Eledaar on August 15, 2008, 04:36:31 AM
It seems to me that a lot of *in character* and *in game* evils were perpetrated against individual characters by an *in game* faction, which happens to be despicable and evil. I mean, even Peasant90's OOC post here sounds like he's trying to get apprentices for the Dark Side.
Previously playing a villain elsewhere, I had similar complaints levied against *my* person as a player. That I had it in for this and this person, that I metagamed to do this or that... in all honesty, I never perma'd ANYONE (I simply would never single out a player and perma their character, unless maybe I was given express consent from the player weeks beforehand and the plot called for it... just not my style, no matter whom I am playing), yet these complaints were *still* levied against me. While I don't understand/know anything about the events that players are talking about here (and perhaps they were treated unfairly due to OOC reasons... or maybe someone just didn't log on for a few days) I will say this:
People do not like to have their social RP and their character's story broken up, even if it is by perfectly RP-oriented, IC events like that characters' death, torture or inconvenience. I mean, a player once hunted me down with three people (ICly, given... I was caught alone) - somehow I managed to kill all three of my attackers, and to prevent them coming right back after me (albeit one level lower), I looted their corpses. Apparently, to some this is griefing.
So, I guess when Peasant90 quoted EO, that just about sums up my thoughts on this matter in a most articulate fashion. Take a step back, and critically evaluate what's going on - even with your own characters.
Sorry, flame me if you must but that's this newbie's ignorant 2cp.
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 04:40:37 AM
lucian and other vardo pretty effectively killed vino and caused him immense pain he never fully recoverers. plus i was in verge of ripping my head of becouse it was so stressing. and to top of that i still havent got any real proof why vino was killed anyway. who knows... what has happened to him could easily be result of insane metagaming, be it accident or intentional, hard to say becouse i dont know the things that resulted in this happening with vino
i asked dm's, but they didnt know anything becouse it was fully player ran situation. ic'ly vardo never interrogated vino, he was just dead in the basement for almost a week (yay) then ressed, patted in the back and escorted to guards, constantly gagged to prevent him from speaking what is happening and his own version of the story. maybe there were some time table issues but hey... many times i was online with vino as ghost, many vardos were online and pretty much idling or afking, ignoring my pleads to go onward with the situation
its silly to say imo, that you can go against vardo ic ingame, sure we can do that but, i think we all know what will happen. the basic vardo formula for this kind of things is that first time offenders will spend some time in their basement, being tortured. second time offenders are killed and fucked beyond imagination that the player gets frustrated and shelfs the character... woah see ? you dont need dm to perm anyone, all it takes is enough shit against someones character. in that kind of situations it is very hard to remain happy ooc and it is inevitable that there will be grief.
im sure many good rp'rs have been there, and of course eventually we get over it. note that i am not angry at anyone ooc, nor ic. what has happened, is in the past and go on with this rp he is in now *shrugs*
but to say that vardo doesnt perm people, is utter bull**** and everyone knows that.
edit to add:
vardo's arent supposed to be murderers, they are professional merchants who get to fill their clients needs. for now, vardo is doing verzi's job
There was a Private Bounty issued to Lucian, by the -Guards-, to take Vino out and turn him in for -questioning-. I don't see Vino perma'ed, or anything of that nature, so most of your arguement and the example provided isn't really supportive. I have a life, like anybody else, and being one of the only Vardo that were active at the time it was hard to get the RP with Vino going for several reasons. My life at that time was pretty hectic as far as my schedule went, and since your on Euro time, it makes it all the more difficult. I remembe apologizing to you several times. :P
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but to say that vardo doesnt perm people, is utter bull**** and everyone knows that.
Past is past. In the past month we've only perma'killed one person. With a very valid RP reason, and it was somebody that was -in- the Vardo.
Just take a breather, tone it down a notch, there's no need to start getting angry over things that've occured IC. No harm was meant in anyway. We're all here to have fun, aren't we? :)
Post by: engelfire on August 15, 2008, 04:51:03 AM
its just silly to me that never was he interrogated or never was he given a chance to defend himself against the accusations. even noica didnt hear him out, only tried to look tough by whispering to his ear.
:offtopic: i know.. just makes me think about lot of stuff
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 04:54:22 AM
The Vardo are the lesser of the two evils, when compared to the Guard. Trust me. ;)
Post by: k_moustakas on August 15, 2008, 07:43:24 AM
Where was MY fun spending two RL weeks trying to find someone (thanks lorea *starts crying*) to pay 6,5k for a ressurection or being told: Oh no worry, if you rp it properly I can give you a hook instead of an arm, because I made fun of Vino? Not to mention I had just finally found Helaman in game and made an order after a month of trying, in which I couldn't afterwards get my items because I was a ghost and neither pay for them! And then straight up after a week of being alive going again through the whole torture thing/perma this time (to which I was totally bored and god knows why I hadn't thought of NOT returning to my body to save me the trouble), because I actually had a five minute conversation with a guard, to whom I told: ''No, I'm not going to testify anything, they are too strong, I'll try to go on with my life'?' That's at least how I felt at the time. Add the feeling of betrayal as at the time, I considered friends of mine (IC) at least two of the vardos, was on the verge of starting a supplying deal with them and the bloomy betraying guard... bloomy betraying guard lol!
Sounds very fun, doesn't it?
And Nef, that WAS my version of getting strongmen to avoid getting troubled again. What would be better than making sure no vardo's would EVER mess with anyone again?
The war was not meant to make the vardo's have fun, or anyone have fun for that matter. It was meant to ruin their gaming like they ruined ours (note the plural) and to somehow get rid of them. Hence I felt so guilty about it and we didn't go through with it in the end. I still feel somewhat guilty over thinking of going through with it. The last comment I remember was: But if we really do that, how are we better than them? Of course, it doesn't literally apply. Nobody's better than anyone and IC frustration has to remain IC and not pass on to OOC. In my situation, it flooded OOC, and I have already apologised. Now that I've let it out, I'll get over it too.
Just don't blame me for keeping things a bit tight for a while, or for not wanting anything to do with you lot until I do get over it.
Post by: failed.bard on August 15, 2008, 08:02:00 AM
Post by: Chrisman888 on August 15, 2008, 08:43:02 AM
Also I don't see the problem here at all, why are we fussing OOCly about how the Vardo perma people? I don't see no problem with people being scared of the Vardo, knowing that if they mess around or such.. they might just disappear. It's all IC. Why not solve it IC, or rp accordingly. If at this time in moment the Vardo are strong.. and powerful, don't think you can run up and stab a Vardo and get away with it, just like killing a guard.
We have to remember that this is Ravenloft, a dark place were evil is quite strong. Assassinations, and all that sort of stuff.. is all part of it. Your suppose to be feared, and if you don't want your character fearing the Vardo, and punching them here, making fun there, stabbing here, messing up there plans there. That's all FINE, your character, your RP, but there just may be consquences when a large powerful faction ((almost like the mafia)) strikes back.
And if we really look at perma killing I think guards take the cake. You kill a guard, run from a guard, cast witchery. Bounty for life bud. Your dead.
Post by: Iconoclast on August 15, 2008, 09:38:27 AM
The best way to have successful antagonistic role play, is to earn the trust of others as a player or dm.
I love the Red Vardo story as I've expressed it to those on the Council.
Evil in this setting in the end leads men and women to their own undoing. Julia Colds was a classic moral tale. Greed, unchecked ambition, and violence in the name of greed and ambition, will lead men and women to self-destruction, unless if they find redemption.
Julia chasing after coin that fell from someone's pocket, the way a dog would run after a french fry falling to the floor, said a great deal.
I think along the way, the Red Vardo have earned a reputation more as thugs than merchants. One of the first rules of business is "satisify the custumer." Another rule of business would be to build relationships with various segments of the community.
The Godfather wasn't about being thuggish. They had their muscle, but those in power mingled with the upper crest of society. They attended church regulary, had their children baptized, had dinner parties, rubbed elbows with politicians. They had eventually the money to run some legiitamate business. in the end though, all the sins of the past caught up to the Godfather, with the tragic death of his daughter. Even when he was trying to find redemption, tragedy befell his family, leading to great anguish. So when developing a character with similar themes, greed, ambition, violence to achieve wealth or prestige, keep in mind that a happy ending isn't likely, and the seeds are being planted along the way for self-destruction.
The Red Vardo now have a soiled reputation that hangs over them to this day, due to the sins of the past, or some of the sins of the day. Great story potential.
The more the Red Vardo resort to violence, the greater the challenge when it comes to public relations and building influence and trust among the community.
I'm looking forward to seeing where the Red Vardo story goes from here.
Post by: ThAnswr on August 15, 2008, 09:46:13 AM
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Alright, first off OOC planning against a faction is very very very wrong, and I can't even believe hearing that, even tho I had my suspicions before.
I'd say I'm shocked too, but I'll let Captain Renault (Casablanca) say it better than I ever could:
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Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
[aloud]
Call it OOC or call it a clandestine, off-premises private meeting. Regardless, players are publicly stating what they have been saying in private and I think it's time to listen.
Here's my take on it. I make it point never to deal with the Vardo since the Julia days. It isn't necessary to deal with the Vardo. Other than magic bags, every bit of the specialty equipment my char has was NOT obtained through the Vardo. If the Vardo are now the sole proprietors of speciallity equpment, and I doubt it, there's something wrong with the system.
However, having said that, I find it rather odd that a new crafting system spawned the very character and dynamics it was supposed to in a char known as Denalie, and she ends up dead. Was it the Vardo: Yes or no? If the answer is "no", my apologies for muddying the good name of the Vardo. If the answer is "yes", that's just plain wrong and completely against the very reason for the herbalism skill unless the intent was to place it in the hands of the Vardo.
Yeah, I know this is Ravenloft and that's the catch-all phrase to excuse anything. The fact is this is a community of gamers first and there are definitie rules and Soren posted those rules.
But, for all who are claiming that the Vardo is like the mafia forget one simple fact: The mafia is not a protected class. Anyone with the skill and guile and guts can kill a member of the mafia. Not all the mafia are "Don Corleone" or the head of the Gambino family. There are plenty of petty underlings who piss off the wrong person and end up dead. Btw, mafia dons end up dead too. Carmine Gallante ended up being shot while he was having lunch at an outdoor table. Albert Anastasia died in a barber's chair after the barber had to run in the back to retreat something. Still unsolved crimes basically because no one gave a crap. The point: They end up dead because they made enemies who plotted their undoing and carried it out.
Which brings us to the main point: If this is Ravenloft with it's morality tale, why are there protected classes who can't suffer the consequences of their actions except in the most stringent of circumstances? People are constantly told to solve their problems IC and ingame. Unstack the deck and that might actually have some meaning.
Post by: mayvind on August 15, 2008, 10:41:23 AM
But i also understand is hard to deal something icly beacause you not getting backup like you should. I have people go after me right and left buffing up while i stand there watching try to kill me so many times intend to harm and lead to perma me, they all lose get upset OOC for losing calling me cheater exploiters, unreasonable and hunger to have me kill and yet they losing nothing but theirs pride.....because 5 mins afterward they are back alive and forming a hunt party on me. If i make one misake iam dead and perma iam sure of it. But this is nothing news to me really, iam not a noob i have played and meet many people in ingame life time from this and other server, and some might say i bringing this on myself, which is true this is how i like to play it.
But can i perma someone who keep coming after me several times ? Nope, but icly i should be ... i would go down into the dwarf mine drop that guy into the molted pit of lava, but i never complaint about it i play and play to have fun if no longer fun iam no longer play.
As for player if you character feel oppressed and want to do something about it then RP Icly doing it get DMs attention and get yours hand dirty. OOC stress and worry is not good for yours health this is a game try to relax everyone.
Let get honest and say a forbidden word. DM or DMs favorite ... the rumor and gossip that is spreading around now is it true or it is false it is those person inside theirs heart to know what is and what not the true. As for the universal true we cant avoid it, Some DMs like certain players more then another it is a FACT of life. In RL teacher like some student more then another, father or mother favor a child more then another. It isnt fair i know, but belt up and LIVE with it.
Cheers.
Post by: Bad_Bud on August 15, 2008, 01:48:34 PM
Um, to be honest I'm not sure I should be posting on such a heated topic where I have no personal experience, being a new player, but on the other hand perhaps and outsider's perspective (and a brief anecdote) will help some people take a step back and look at this without so much vested interest.
It seems to me that a lot of *in character* and *in game* evils were perpetrated against individual characters by an *in game* faction, which happens to be despicable and evil. I mean, even Peasant90's OOC post here sounds like he's trying to get apprentices for the Dark Side.
Previously playing a villain elsewhere, I had similar complaints levied against *my* person as a player. That I had it in for this and this person, that I metagamed to do this or that... in all honesty, I never perma'd ANYONE (I simply would never single out a player and perma their character, unless maybe I was given express consent from the player weeks beforehand and the plot called for it... just not my style, no matter whom I am playing), yet these complaints were *still* levied against me. While I don't understand/know anything about the events that players are talking about here (and perhaps they were treated unfairly due to OOC reasons... or maybe someone just didn't log on for a few days) I will say this:
People do not like to have their social RP and their character's story broken up, even if it is by perfectly RP-oriented, IC events like that characters' death, torture or inconvenience. I mean, a player once hunted me down with three people (ICly, given... I was caught alone) - somehow I managed to kill all three of my attackers, and to prevent them coming right back after me (albeit one level lower), I looted their corpses. Apparently, to some this is griefing.
So, I guess when Peasant90 quoted EO, that just about sums up my thoughts on this matter in a most articulate fashion. Take a step back, and critically evaluate what's going on - even with your own characters.
Sorry, flame me if you must but that's this newbie's ignorant 2cp.
But we aren't discussing the other evil factions such as the undead or the guards. Guards come up every now and then, but guards don't feel like an invincible force. Deep down I feel that if I do anything to a Red Vardo, even if it is extremely well planned out and carried out in secret, I have a feeling that somehow, someway, they will have some kind of technology; a crystal ball that looks into the past and finds me guilty. I don't feel this way about any other faction.
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 02:09:46 PM
Um, to be honest I'm not sure I should be posting on such a heated topic where I have no personal experience, being a new player, but on the other hand perhaps and outsider's perspective (and a brief anecdote) will help some people take a step back and look at this without so much vested interest.
It seems to me that a lot of *in character* and *in game* evils were perpetrated against individual characters by an *in game* faction, which happens to be despicable and evil. I mean, even Peasant90's OOC post here sounds like he's trying to get apprentices for the Dark Side.
Previously playing a villain elsewhere, I had similar complaints levied against *my* person as a player. That I had it in for this and this person, that I metagamed to do this or that... in all honesty, I never perma'd ANYONE (I simply would never single out a player and perma their character, unless maybe I was given express consent from the player weeks beforehand and the plot called for it... just not my style, no matter whom I am playing), yet these complaints were *still* levied against me. While I don't understand/know anything about the events that players are talking about here (and perhaps they were treated unfairly due to OOC reasons... or maybe someone just didn't log on for a few days) I will say this:
People do not like to have their social RP and their character's story broken up, even if it is by perfectly RP-oriented, IC events like that characters' death, torture or inconvenience. I mean, a player once hunted me down with three people (ICly, given... I was caught alone) - somehow I managed to kill all three of my attackers, and to prevent them coming right back after me (albeit one level lower), I looted their corpses. Apparently, to some this is griefing.
So, I guess when Peasant90 quoted EO, that just about sums up my thoughts on this matter in a most articulate fashion. Take a step back, and critically evaluate what's going on - even with your own characters.
Sorry, flame me if you must but that's this newbie's ignorant 2cp.
But we aren't discussing the other evil factions such as the undead or the guards. Guards come up every now and then, but guards don't feel like an invincible force. Deep down I feel that if I do anything to a Red Vardo, even if it is extremely well planned out and carried out in secret, I have a feeling that somehow, someway, they will have some kind of technology; a crystal ball that looks into the past and finds me guilty. I don't feel this way about any other faction.
This Topic is meant to discuss -all- of the Factions, hence feedback on the current factions(Plural). In my experience, the Guard are quite invincible, and ICly I've seen how they'd act to portray that feeling. They have the law on their side, the Counts law.
Instead of complaining about how untouchable the Vardo is OOC, complain about it IC. And sorry if I used the wrong word, but complaining seem suitable at the time. The Vardo are meant to be feared along those lines, otherwise we'd be getting whacked every day. This is all IC fear carrying over to OOC frusteration, which shouldn't be happening.
Lets try to be a bit more constructive with our posts, and I'm not saying that in an accusing manner.
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However, having said that, I find it rather odd that a new crafting system spawned the very character and dynamics it was supposed to in a char known as Denalie, and she ends up dead. Was it the Vardo: Yes or no? If the answer is "no", my apologies for muddying the good name of the Vardo. If the answer is "yes", that's just plain wrong and completely against the very reason for the herbalism skill unless the intent was to place it in the hands of the Vardo.
I, personally, never had Denalie killed. I don't much like to resort to killing off players, when there's other more richful roads to be taken to expand both parties RP experience and fun.
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Let get honest and say a forbidden word. DM or DMs favorite ... the rumor and gossip that is spreading around now is it true or it is false it is those person inside theirs heart to know what is and what not the true. As for the universal true we cant avoid it, Some DMs like certain players more then another it is a FACT of life. In RL teacher like some student more then another, father or mother favor a child more then another. It isnt fair i know, but belt up and LIVE with it.
If your refering to EO as our "Favorite DM", then that's wrong. He's our Faction DM, nothing else. He treats us just the same as any other DM would, if they had our faction.
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But, for all who are claiming that the Vardo is like the mafia forget one simple fact: The mafia is not a protected class.The Vardo isn't really a Mafia, but it -can- act as one. They have alot of similiar qualties and traits, except the Vardo is big in the Market business. Or trying to be, once again. Things are in progress to start getting it ontrack for that. Like I said in the perma'death Topic. (If I have my topics straight.)
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Which brings us to the main point: If this is Ravenloft with it's morality tale, why are there protected classes who can't suffer the consequences of their actions except in the most stringent of circumstances? People are constantly told to solve their problems IC and ingame. Unstack the deck and that might actually have some meaning.
It's simple. Nobodies telling anybody to simply shelve their problems, though I'd always like to suggest they keep their IC problems IC and try to keep it there. The only reason why the Vardo aren't suffering any "Consequences", from past deeds most likely, is because nobodies taken a move to dish these out. That's not our fault at all, and I don't think we should be put on the hotseat like that. People are growing so frusterated that their PCs can't get back at us IC, that it's causing alot of OOC problems to occur.
We didn't do anything OOC to make sure that we were protected and safe guarded, we always keep it IC and deal with it there. I'd like to ask the same of everybody else.
Post by: Delphinidae on August 15, 2008, 02:25:03 PM
One thing you have to remember, and I speak as a former captain Vardo, is that the Vardo excel at information gathering and sneaking. Ric and Nef can back that up since they used to be Vardos too. I remember my captaincy having people paranoid because of all the information we kept getting on people and groups. And this does not mean stealth alone. People could be bought, betray others, do it for favors and so on. There was only one character at the time besides the Vardo who had such a veritable spy network and I'm not naming the character to respect his work and privacy. So Vardo finding about your plans or past actions is quite easy. You'd be surprised how much people speak of secrets and plans without even going into a locked room or thinking some way out of the way place was safe.
Also, I'll address this "favorism issue". It seems the job of a faction DM is seen by some like favorism and I think that's just a misconception. Perhaps a DM should explain what being a faction DM is about to the others players.
Now, what I do ask is the following:
If you feel like this, why hasn't there been these complaints been issued to the CC? The CC can't read minds nor can it act without complaints or issues being brought up to it.
Post by: ThAnswr on August 15, 2008, 02:35:22 PM
I sense a lot of hostility towards the RVT faction, mostly from the misguided idea that they're untouchable (they aren't, I know the undead faction could have taken them all out at one point and even the guard has made the Vardo suffer).
I think what people are saying is the Vardo are untouchable to the player who is not in the Guard faction or the Undead faction. Is that accurate or not?
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 02:47:03 PM
Post by: ThAnswr on August 15, 2008, 02:56:30 PM
It's not accurate at all. And the only reason why we may seem to be untouchable, is because of IC circumstances. Kill a Vardo, and the Vardo find out, be prepared to deal with consequences.
So in other words, the Vardo can be attacked by a lynch mob and the result may be permadeath for the Vardo?
And, yes we all understand actions have consequences. I think the point of this thread is to clear up the perception, rightly or wrongly, that certain faction members cannot be killed (which may lead to permadeath) except by certain other faction members.
Post by: Nefensis on August 15, 2008, 03:00:00 PM
It's not accurate at all. And the only reason why we may seem to be untouchable, is because of IC circumstances. Kill a Vardo, and the Vardo find out, be prepared to deal with consequences.
So in other words, the Vardo can be attacked by a lynch mob and the result may be permadeath for the Vardo?
And, yes we all understand actions have consequences. I think the point of this thread is to clear up the perception, rightly or wrongly, that certain faction members cannot be killed (which may lead to permadeath) except by certain other faction members.
Yes, any Vardo can be killed, permanently.
Post by: Iconoclast on August 15, 2008, 03:01:13 PM
Nobody knows what the outcome will be, but so long as folks can keep a cool head, without demanding we squeeze orange juice from an apple, the outcome will be productive and a benefit.
The task is to weed out the misconceptions from the valid concerns when we study formal complaints. One player might bring to us some very well thought out criticism that makes sense, that we can learn from, and then provide suggestions for improvement to the dm team, while another might be on an emotional rampage, prattling off about the failure of the admistration, and really taking things to an unhealthy level, where it almost seems the only thing that will please them is a "Yes, you are absolutely correct, and this place is awful, and please....become our leader and lead us from the darkness into the light!."
One question that I almost always ask, whether I am on the dm ship with a player and dm trying to resolve a problem, or in the forum, is ask the person upset this question: What would you like to see as the outcome here? Ideally, in the best of all worlds, what do you think is a fair resolution?
We also might have a player or more who just doesn't appreciate what PoTm is striving for, and when they don't get the reaction they want from the community, or dms, or the Council, they then suffer from conspiracy theories, or they place themsevles into the role of victum.
Red Vardo are not untouchable. However, they have resoruces and power. The Dwellers had been given a reason to wipe some of the Red Vardo out, but instead, other alternatives took shape, and the Red Vardo managed to buy their lives in time.
You see, with every power, there is a flip side. The Red Vardo depend upon being accessible. They own property that can burn down. They also can't go into hiding for long if they fear for their lives, since then they won't be able to sell their goods. So the Red Vardo, may have learned from experience, that using their heads instead of violence will be more profitable in most conflicts, because there will be a backlash.
The Dwellers' power isn't in money, so much as the fact they have nothing to lose. I mean...they live in the freaking sewers, in a place called the Drain. The fact they not much to lose, means that if anyone becomes their enemy, watch out.
The undead....well...the dynamic between the living and the undead takes shape. Having the undead factions, with some rather powerful characters among them, gives all the other factions a good reason to put their difference aside and work together towards protecting Vallaki.
If you look at the Red Vardo, Ml Cult, Guards, Church of Ezra, they do have an invested interest in seeing Vallaki protected and prosperous. A faction like the rebels can make things very interesting ethically for good aligned factions or characters. They are after all fighting for the liberation of thier people, against a tyrant, who is believed to be an undead witch.
Red Vardo can provide help to the guard in trying to blow the cover of any Gundaraktie Rebels. The Gundarakite Rebels can find some help secretly among the Cult of the Morninglord. And the play goes on and on.
So the factions ought to keep one another in some sort of balance or check. When one faction becomes too brutal, another steps in. If the Guard Faction becomes too dominating, despite the law on their side, they too will have a back lash. I think we've seen that just recently. The Barovians have the internal conflict of having to rely on some outlanders that they would rather not, in order to succeed in protecting Vallaki.
These are the things I appreciate about PoTm, and has made my summer vacation worth my while.
Post by: ThAnswr on August 15, 2008, 03:05:03 PM
It's not accurate at all. And the only reason why we may seem to be untouchable, is because of IC circumstances. Kill a Vardo, and the Vardo find out, be prepared to deal with consequences.
So in other words, the Vardo can be attacked by a lynch mob and the result may be permadeath for the Vardo?
And, yes we all understand actions have consequences. I think the point of this thread is to clear up the perception, rightly or wrongly, that certain faction members cannot be killed (which may lead to permadeath) except by certain other faction members.
Yes, any Vardo can be killed, permanently.
Thank you. That simple statement probably just extinguished half the frustration out there. :clap:
Post by: LawfulJoe on August 15, 2008, 03:43:59 PM
Heh... Thraxys has IC hatred of the Vardo and most likely never trust them for the things done in the past ICly. It is a persistant world, and it has IC history. That IC history cannot be conveniently buried. As for OOC, whatever... I am playing a game, and making stories, that is why I play. If the story has a happy ending or tragic, it's all good, but the actions of the past are part of that story, so to say, "those were bad times, lets move past them" doesn't work for me ICly, but OOCly, cool beans and I hope it makes for a kinder, gentler Merchant/Mercenary/Assassin Faction that is more friendly to players and contribute more to the overall enjoyment of the faction and the server.Maybe all this is pent up feelings from what was happening before this last month.There's a new generation of Vardo I guess you could say. Put your OOC frusterations and hostility about the Vardo behind you, and try to move on. Cooperating with the Vardo is by far more beneficial then going against it.
Cheers. :)
Luv ya OOC, IC... I would cheerfully strangle the life out of the vardo, all in the name of fun :D
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on August 15, 2008, 03:53:47 PM
The Red Vardo Traders have been getting hammered by DM's and other factions alike (with good RP reason!). I love how everyone assumes that everyone that beats them has some sort of connection or power- they don't. The Red Vardo have been, until recently, treading on very thin ice rebuilding their reputation which was shattered by the very characters who caused you to hate the Vardo in the first place. Characters who are now -dead-.
Don't pin your OOC frustrations on us. That just makes US frustrated. I've seen nothing here but misguided and misdirected hatred at what you don't understand- if you want to do that keep it IC, don't bring it to OOC and make it personal. As for the completly uninformed belief Vardo are bullet proof, More Vardo have been killed by OTHER VARDO then anything else. What other Faction kills it's own members? None except the guard on one or two rare occasions. Being a Vardo carries risk of being perma'd by your own faction more then any other- two captains and one advisory all killed for failing the family.
And for the record, ICly? The Current Vardo are trying to balance common sense and savvy over blatent violence. Julia Colds is gone. All the others are gone. The only ranking members are more or less new.
So keep your IC predjudices if you want, thats just roleplay. Don't complain OOCly because I'm working hard and getting things done though, it belittles our personal accomplishments.
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on August 15, 2008, 04:10:16 PM
It's not accurate at all. And the only reason why we may seem to be untouchable, is because of IC circumstances. Kill a Var do, and the Var do find out, be prepared to deal with consequences.
So in other words, the Var do can be attacked by a lynch mob and the result may be permeate for the Var do?
And, yes we all understand actions have consequences. I think the point of this thread is to clear up the perception, rightly or wrongly, that certain faction members cannot be killed (which may lead to permeate) except by certain other faction members.
Yes, any Var do can be killed, permanently.
Thank you. That simple statement probably just extinguished half the frustration out there. :clap:
For the record. No PC from any faction is untouchable, NP C's a differing matter we just can't kill Stared of as what would be the point of the server then. :P
Red Vardo is the current powerhouse faction with a ton of members. I guarantee that will change, it always does. :twisted:
Post by: Nefensis on August 15, 2008, 04:13:09 PM
Quote
Red Vardo is the current powerhouse faction with a ton of members. I guarantee that will change, it always does.
I don't think we're talking about the same faction here, we got 3-4 members top. And we have the same power that the faction has ever had at any point. The same power any faction has, in different means.
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 04:22:59 PM
Heh... Thraxys has IC hatred of the Vardo and most likely never trust them for the things done in the past ICly. It is a persistant world, and it has IC history. That IC history cannot be conveniently buried. As for OOC, whatever... I am playing a game, and making stories, that is why I play. If the story has a happy ending or tragic, it's all good, but the actions of the past are part of that story, so to say, "those were bad times, lets move past them" doesn't work for me ICly, but OOCly, cool beans and I hope it makes for a kinder, gentler Merchant/Mercenary/Assassin Faction that is more friendly to players and contribute more to the overall enjoyment of the faction and the server.Maybe all this is pent up feelings from what was happening before this last month.There's a new generation of Vardo I guess you could say. Put your OOC frusterations and hostility about the Vardo behind you, and try to move on. Cooperating with the Vardo is by far more beneficial then going against it.
Cheers. :)
Luv ya OOC, IC... I would cheerfully strangle the life out of the vardo, all in the name of fun :D
Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough! I was asking people to put their -OOC- hatred for the Vardo behind them. I wouldn't ask for that IC, as it's.. Well. Not cool. :P
Quote
I don't think we're talking about the same faction here, we got 3-4 members top. And we have the same power that the faction has ever had at any point. The same power any faction has, in different means.
Agree with Nef here. :thumbup:
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on August 15, 2008, 04:30:18 PM
Post by: kanedellesk on August 15, 2008, 05:13:28 PM
The Morninglordian Faction recently got slapped by the guard. Before that, the ML Faction slapped the Brood. Before that the Guard had been slapped by the Dwellers. The Dwellers got slapped around by someone before that. And the Rebel/Guard slap fight is continual.
By my count, only ones who haven't gotten ripped a proverbial new one are the ezrites. Though don't think it may not be coming. :twisted:
Point is, when a faction gets too big for it's britches, they always manage to piss off the wrong person and will pay the piper for it. No faction is immune from it, I promise.
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 05:16:09 PM
Post by: Ryltar/ Robert Archer on August 15, 2008, 05:17:31 PM
The Morninglordian Faction recently got slapped by the guard.
that was unintentional honest! :lol:
Post by: kanedellesk on August 15, 2008, 05:25:27 PM
Non-Faction players can also "Slap around" a Faction, and they have, if it's done right. Even if their may be consequences.
This is highly true. I remember when one character, who was not uber powerful in levels, nor anything like that pretty much single handedly took down a very powerful faction completely on her own. It was one of the strongest factions around, then when she got through they were pretty much short of members. And the character in question was not a PvP powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination.
The character and player in question did that by highly smart and sophisticated role play. Destroying a faction doesn't always come down to who has the highest AB/AC or who can cast the highest level spells. ;)
Post by: Taty on August 15, 2008, 05:27:45 PM
If you feel like this, why hasn't there been these complaints been issued to the CC? The CC can't read minds nor can it act without complaints or issues being brought up to it.
Actually the Council has received several complaints in recent weeks on this very topic. A good many are based on speculation and rumour, some have had more substance. The issue of the RVT in particular is being looked at as well as other faction dynamics.
Many of the issues are in fact based on perception. The RVT get blamed for a great many things that they are in fact not responsible for. The perception that they can perma kill at will is also quite inaccurate. They do require the verdict from a higher power, DM EO.
Speaking from experience as both an officer of the Red Vardo and a former semi rival there are many ways to deal with them.If you wish to be in direct opposition to them you must have other powers behind you, but it is possible. I remember early in my time on POTM thinking they were this terrible thing, that they controlled everything and that they ruined peoples fun. In time I developed ways to keep them at bay and eventually had some degree of protection by them. It was very daunting when I was a 2nd lvl vampire with a handful of allies, I was simply out classed. However when I had an organization that was actually as large if not larger than theirs it became a much less oppressive relationship. Also the Vardo is quite capable of compromise, many players are not.
As Nef stated, at present you are really only talking about 4 people. The faction is in a shambles and are the most vulnerable I have ever known them to be. Members have left in large number and they are regrouping. They get dumped on by the Count, by the guard and by their NPC leaders, this is not an insurmountable force. It is true that as a faction they have the power of perma killing, but that does not mean one cannot enlist the aid of other factions to do the dirty work for them. A little manipulation, a little bargaining and many things can happen.
In summary, the staff are looking at setting a better balance, the factions power is greatly overstated and much of this can be dealt with IC, it just takes some imagination. Not everything you hear in game is true, and some happily let the Vardo get blamed for things they have done. If your characters are feeling bullied or harassed then think about the situation IC. Nef herself recently had an organization that rivaled the Vardo without the faction benefits, I have done the same as have others before me. This is actually an exciting opportunity in game at the moment. I see so many possibilities for people that want to fight back, all it takes is the belief you can and to find a few like minded people, which clearly there is an abundance of.
~Taty~
Post by: Kaspar on August 15, 2008, 05:32:46 PM
The character and player in question did that by highly smart and sophisticated role play. Destroying a faction doesn't always come down to who has the highest AB/AC or who can cast the highest level spells. ;)
Nor does it always mean you have to go and hunt down those Vardo/Guard members, and outright perma'kill them. There are other methods to abide by, most more fulfilling and fun. Methods that I myself would rather go by. :)
Post by: Taty on August 15, 2008, 05:38:10 PM
Non-Faction players can also "Slap around" a Faction, and they have, if it's done right. Even if their may be consequences.
This is highly true. I remember when one character, who was not uber powerful in levels, nor anything like that pretty much single handedly took down a very powerful faction completely on her own. It was one of the strongest factions around, then when she got through they were pretty much short of members. And the character in question was not a PvP powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination.
The character and player in question did that by highly smart and sophisticated role play. Destroying a faction doesn't always come down to who has the highest AB/AC or who can cast the highest level spells. ;)
And it was fun too :)
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on August 15, 2008, 06:35:10 PM
Post by: ethinos on August 15, 2008, 06:38:41 PM
Post by: Taty on August 15, 2008, 06:47:23 PM
The Morninglord Faction was never powerful either. The delusion that any faction is 'powerful' is just that- a delusion, a vanity.
Powerful is a relative term and power comes in many forms. If you do not consider a group with some near epic characters and decent numbers powerful I suppose you are difficult to impress, but when compared to other factions they are in physical power. Just as the guard while possesing few high level characters has the power of the law behind them, the power to bounty and to execute, to me that is power. Compare any faction to a lone individual who has few contacts and little money and they are more powerful, they can cause more effect on the world than the invidual. It is not vanity, it is realistic in relative terms.
Post by: LawfulJoe on August 15, 2008, 07:21:33 PM
I see this in many ways like the Vardo. They have connections and resources, but their out reaching power is an illusion. There is strength in numbers with any group, but with the Vardo, they are the one standing up and waving theri arms saying "Look how much influence I have!! You are helpless against us!" and as long as we believe this is true... it is. ;) Which in my opinion is cool! :D
Peasants over throw kings, Unions crush Megacorps, Mobs bring down the vilest of killers. Alone, a Vardo, undead, Dweller, etc. is weak, but as a group, united and together, noone will stand against you and survive.... etc another group, that is unite and together.
Believe me, Thraxys was ready to start stacking up Vardo like cord wood, but the repercussions for such an act would have been his undoing. The character is a survivor, not a killing machine, and he logiced out that if he avenged his friends against the Vardo, he could not bring down the organization, only a few individual Vardo. To him the organization was vast a massive, a total IC and OCC impression I got from RP and experience. The example used was "it would have been like stabbing a red dragon in the toe, serving only to draw the attention of the much more dangerous fire breathing end." Whether the Vardo were true this powerful I will never know, but it did appear that. Had me jumping at shadows and thinking that anyone could possibly be a Vardo operative. I did not even know there was an OCC inititive to bring them down, it was all IC as far as I knew, and an on going plot... which simply went away. I was looking forward to gang warfare, and seeing if the new or old vardo would come out on top. But alas, this did not come to pass... and messed up the story :P Anyway, moving on, watching Lucian like a hawk when he and I am around and thinking that the Vardo are everywhere, even if OOC they are not. :P
Post by: Inviktus on August 16, 2008, 02:50:50 AM
Honestly, all the factions have enough 'power' and 'influence' to permakill an enemy of the faction. The Vardos are simply more openly antagonistic. Personally, I think the Undead factions are more deadly than the Vardos ever could be.
I'm pretty sure the undeads have done some nasty purges of the vardo ranks. From what I've heard.
Post by: Nefensis on August 16, 2008, 08:04:18 AM
Post by: ThAnswr on August 16, 2008, 09:46:48 AM
Cherry, Lila, Danielle, were all killed by the Vardo, then again i think Ileanna spent some times in their clutches too, Vardo are not immune
No, Lila was killed during the battle between the ML faction and the Undead.
Post by: failed.bard on August 16, 2008, 10:19:08 AM
Cherry, Lila, Danielle, were all killed by the Vardo, then again i think Ileanna spent some times in their clutches too, Vardo are not immune
No, Lila was killed during the battle between the ML faction and the Undead.
It was mainly vardo in the room when Lila died, though, and it was probably a vardo that ended up killing her, so... still mostly correct in whar Nef said.
Post by: ThAnswr on August 16, 2008, 11:26:05 AM
Post by: EO on August 16, 2008, 11:29:40 AM
Post by: Kaspar on August 16, 2008, 11:31:50 AM
Post by: ThAnswr on August 16, 2008, 11:36:50 AM
Let's stop the code right here. :lol:
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on August 16, 2008, 03:12:55 PM
And all of them Red Vardo Pc's, all of them of rank 2 or higher.
Post by: Bad_Bud on August 16, 2008, 07:58:45 PM
I think this might be why noone is raising concerns about the guard faction, because everyone knows in character who gets killed and why, giving the story an ending, instead of people forever wondering if the victim jumped off a cliff, found a way out of the mists, or became a werewolf's dinner.
Ileanna Antropov? No one knows and no one has a reason to talk about her abnormal absense.
Post by: Kaspar on August 16, 2008, 08:07:34 PM
Post by: Iconoclast on August 16, 2008, 08:13:03 PM
I had the idea the other day of creating a thread in the Accouncment section to list all missing persons reports. It might make things interesting.
Post by: failed.bard on August 16, 2008, 08:14:51 PM
For a good reason.
I'm pretty sure what Bad_Bud is saying, is that there is an enormous difference between an ending, and actual closure to a story.
Post by: Bad_Bud on August 16, 2008, 08:17:03 PM
For a good reason.
In character, yes, but using out of character logic for the in character enjoyment of other players, I think it sucks when people disappear. It's not just the Vardo, but I know the Vardo are involved in several disappearances.
Post by: Kaspar on August 16, 2008, 08:25:10 PM
Post by: Bad_Bud on August 16, 2008, 08:31:35 PM
And I was simply stating that there was a good reason behind a certain disappearance, if it were to occur. We don't just off players. Alot of things happening in the background that you might not be privy too.
Ugh, yes, I know, but that's not what my point is.
I don't care if there's a good reason or not.
My point, and also I believe the consensus of the original topic, is that death should have a large impact on the world, not constantly be teased. I take that consensus and conclude that death should be something that impacts a majority of the server; by causing a death and having nearly every player on the server "not be privy" to that event makes the death, in my opinion, somewhat of a waste.
Edit: We had a topic not too long ago where players expressed their concerns that they wished they could make more of an impact on the game world. A snuffing of a character is a lack of an impact to the game world. To the character causing the death there is probably a large impact, but to everyone else, without proper closure, there is none. They might as well be another Jeggred Mason and stop logging on to the server (or at least with that character). The impact is the same.
Post by: Kaspar on August 16, 2008, 08:34:41 PM
I understand your point, and I just don't agree with it.
Post by: JayeAeotiv on August 16, 2008, 09:11:33 PM
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on August 16, 2008, 09:22:03 PM
:arrow: With the removal of Illianna of the Red Vardo the 'discussion' on a guild being established fell apart.
:arrow: With the removal of Danielle the players behind a group set out to take over the Red Vardo fell apart. Further they could have been instrumental in discussions on a guild.
:arrow: With the removal of Father Celurion died the Morninglord faction floundered for months OOC'ly. It has only recently begun to flourish again.
:arrow: With the removal of Callous the vampires hunting the outskirts have diminished.
:arrow: With the removal of Tagdar, nice statue by the way, the dwarven rebellion has floundered.
:arrow: With the removal of Lila the Morninglordians gained entry into the undead factions old base for a massive battle of PC forces among many other impacts.
:arrow: With the removal of the vampire Tatyana fewer evil PC's are uniting to fight together as a force. Most of the server was actively involved in hunting the one PC.
:arrow: Drudoc, Samira, and Dribo has significantly decreased activity of "The Blood God" cultists.
I respectfully disagree the quiet removal of a player has no significance.
Post by: failed.bard on August 16, 2008, 09:58:46 PM
Quote
:arrow: Drudoc, Samira, and Dribo has significantly decreased activity of "The Blood God" cultists.
I'm not sure about Drudoc's and Samira's executions, I wasn't there for them, but Dribo's was /quite/ public. There must have been at least a dozen people that very pointedly got the message to not side with undead, witches, and the like.
I think that's more the situation most players are comfortable with, as opposed to just simply disappearing. Odd, really, considering how Dribo died.
Post by: dutchy on August 16, 2008, 10:09:11 PM
while i know some stuff ooc that went on behind the scenes of the vardos, i agree they do things acording to the factions nature.
its true its not about ab and ac.........i think i can place a bet here that most complains the CC gotten where from crafters.
might be 4 vardos left but crafters are mostly low lvls and easy to bull around.
as much i dislike how the new leadership of the vardo thinks and works, they actually do a good job...4 poeple 30+ are scared *aplauds*
the vardo is and always will be a touchy faction, why? simpel they are meceranaries that kill maim and torture, and there has been a perma kill death toll rising on the server in the last few weeks and the vardo had a hand in them.
but lets review whats also happening, its easy to point ahead then point in all directions.
the server is going trough a new era........look around alot of people shelve old chars or some old chars have died new people join and alot of new chars have been made, these are all things that also effect factions.
the gaurds: beside the npc's pretty weak atm most lvls are at 3-9
vardo: low membership decent lvls
ezrites: ......any left?
dead ones: they are in hiding as they to have low numbers
new era new problems, but old feelings and habbits die slow. cause nobody ever gotten to really hand out thier frustrations towards the vardo, they WERE imune.
Post by: Bad_Bud on August 16, 2008, 11:29:15 PM
The disappearance of people does have impacts on the community:
:arrow: With the removal of Illianna of the Red Vardo the 'discussion' on a guild being established fell apart.
:arrow: With the removal of Danielle the players behind a group set out to take over the Red Vardo fell apart. Further they could have been instrumental in discussions on a guild.
:arrow: With the removal of Father Celurion died the Morninglord faction floundered for months OOC'ly. It has only recently begun to flourish again.
:arrow: With the removal of Callous the vampires hunting the outskirts have diminished.
:arrow: With the removal of Tagdar, nice statue by the way, the dwarven rebellion has floundered.
:arrow: With the removal of Lila the Morninglordians gained entry into the undead factions old base for a massive battle of PC forces among many other impacts.
:arrow: With the removal of the vampire Tatyana fewer evil PC's are uniting to fight together as a force. Most of the server was actively involved in hunting the one PC.
:arrow: Drudoc, Samira, and Dribo has significantly decreased activity of "The Blood God" cultists.
I respectfully disagree the quiet removal of a player has no significance.
I don't know a whole lot about half of the people on that list, but most of what I see are not exactly quiet removals. Like Failed Bard said, Dribo's was public; the destruction of Tatyana as well, if the entire server was hunting her, I wouldn't consider quiet; Tagdar... well, has a statue, so his death isn't a mystery; and the rest were either quiet, or before my time.
It looks like most of the impacts listed are sudden endings of groups or aspirations. I might even wager that the impacts made were due to a lack of impact because of the fact they were dead, rather than if we were to kill someone like Strahd, because Strahd is already in power, with his position already secured. I read over the list and I see "decreased", "diminished", "floundered", "fell apart", etc. This is what I think of when I think of a lack of conclusion. Plots tend to get clotheslined when there is a quiet removal. You've listed the quiet assassinations of activists.
Post by: Delphinidae on August 16, 2008, 11:35:49 PM
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simpel they are meceranaries that kill maim and torture, and there has been a perma kill death toll rising on the server in the last few weeks and the vardo had a hand in them.
Vardo are mercenaries, bodyguards, merchants, information gatherers and body/item recoverers. I'm sorry to say, but in the past few months (not weeks, because saying weeks seems like there's a supposed Vardo permadeath at least once each week for the last month), most permadeath's in the past months were guard related, not Vardo. Dribo, Samira, Drudoc, Eowary, Bad_Bud's halfling, Tagdar, Lorea, (I can't recall who killed Neithu) and I'm missing one or two. Vardo's count in that time is two: Denalie and Illeanna, oh and Regno. So your previous statement, as DMs, and Vardo players have said previously, does not stand.
Quote
. . .cause nobody ever gotten to really hand out thier frustrations towards the vardo, they WERE imune.
I'm sorry, but no. This is a big misconception. I'm getting tired of repeating this, but no one was ever immune. In any faction. Yes, it's harder to take down people in the upper echalon's (I mean rank, such as Noica, Lucian) but it can be done. The only ones who are immune, and to a certain degree I might add, are NPCs (NPCs have been killed off before).
DMs, current Vardo and former Vardo have already explained this conception of immunity is not true. Right now such a train of thought is merely a misconception or malinformation, but if does continue it will be considered slander.
I also understand that most of this misinformation is because people are not privy to all the OOC and IC happenings of the factions and can only react and speak on what they know, but please be careful on what you say. There is no reason why three different DMs would lie to you.
Post by: Bad_Bud on August 16, 2008, 11:41:56 PM
Post by: Vespertilio on August 16, 2008, 11:44:24 PM
Post by: Iconoclast on August 16, 2008, 11:55:04 PM
However, we do find some people making outrageous claims at times, that sometimes threatens to overshadow the very good and constructive criticism made. In other words, some of the criticism people make about the Red Vardo is born from misconception, while some of the ciritcism is very good and constructive, and we're making a point to learn from it, and we've made constructive suggestions to the dm reps.
I am confident that some of the suggestions that have been born from these discussion will help matters.
Post by: Delphinidae on August 17, 2008, 12:00:23 AM
I do agree with you that the silent assasinations do leave a bad taste in the mouth, but in some cases (I'm not saying the past cases, just some cases), they will get done. Someone will eventually rub someone the other way and hire an assassin to take said character out. That is why assassinations really fall under the Ba'al Vertzi's jurisdiction. Personally I feel the Vardo are free to take down their own agents for the safety of their organization, but to target outside people, I'd hire a Vertzi. It would still probably leave you with a bad taste in the mouth, but while this isn't really a comfort, for someone to hire a Vertzi to take you out means you're a special case since they had to hire the best assassins there are as opposed to regular ones.
Oh, and Icono beat me to the "claims born from misconceptions".
Post by: dutchy on August 17, 2008, 12:18:50 AM
and vardo WERE untouchable due to thier numbers and secrecy, poeple fear them so dont group up vs them so that makes them imune.
Post by: Bad_Bud on August 17, 2008, 12:20:33 AM
The toll was given to respond to the Dutchy's quote, Bad_Bud. Dutchy said: "...there has been a perma kill death toll rising on the server in the last few weeks and the vardo had a hand in them." That's why I gave the numbers, just to show that this rising toll is not mostly Vardo.
Sorry about that...
I do agree with you that the silent assasinations do leave a bad taste in the mouth, but in some cases (I'm not saying the past cases, just some cases), they will get done. Someone will eventually rub someone the other way and hire an assassin to take said character out. That is why assassinations really fall under the Ba'al Vertzi's jurisdiction. Personally I feel the Vardo are free to take down their own agents for the safety of their organization, but to target outside people, I'd hire a Vertzi. It would still probably leave you with a bad taste in the mouth, but while this isn't really a comfort, for someone to hire a Vertzi to take you out means you're a special case since they had to hire the best assassins there are as opposed to regular ones.
I had a large discussion with several people (mostly friends, but with some random passers by as well ;)) about how the game's presentation of consiquences can be problematic, and this is going to be off topic from a faction discussion...
Consiquences in the real world don't translate well into the game:
1) You can't maim a person because they can always find a way to heal.
2) Death is not to be feared because you can always be brought back.
Most people already knew those two things and that they cause trouble when it comes to lasting consiquences and punishment, or so I hope. ;)
My bigger concern is that these two things create a quiet death problem. I wouldn't be pissy and whining if we had political assassinations, because those are cool! Drama, rallying, revenge! Heck yes, aren't these things awesome fuel for passionate roleplay? Too bad this isn't the way things can be. Due to the fact we cannot shoot the president, so to speak, and leave the corpse there as a message, or leave Dagris to sway in the wind at noose's end, causes snuffings of characters, rather than glorious defeats. We have to burn and dispose of bodies for fear of them coming back, and thus it almost has to be quiet or a secret for someone to be permanently killed. I'm no assassination expert, but I don't think anyone is sending a squad to kill a druglord with the expectation of the man being burned and bottled to that no remains will be left behind.
Sadly, I have no suggestion that could solve this problem aside from dramatically altering the rules of healing within the world of Ravenloft.
Post by: LawfulJoe on August 17, 2008, 12:20:54 AM
The disappearance of people does have impacts on the community:
:arrow: With the removal of Illianna of the Red Vardo the 'discussion' on a guild being established fell apart.
:arrow: With the removal of Danielle the players behind a group set out to take over the Red Vardo fell apart. Further they could have been instrumental in discussions on a guild.
:arrow: With the removal of Father Celurion died the Morninglord faction floundered for months OOC'ly. It has only recently begun to flourish again.
:arrow: With the removal of Callous the vampires hunting the outskirts have diminished.
:arrow: With the removal of Tagdar, nice statue by the way, the dwarven rebellion has floundered.
:arrow: With the removal of Lila the Morninglordians gained entry into the undead factions old base for a massive battle of PC forces among many other impacts.
:arrow: With the removal of the vampire Tatyana fewer evil PC's are uniting to fight together as a force. Most of the server was actively involved in hunting the one PC.
:arrow: Drudoc, Samira, and Dribo has significantly decreased activity of "The Blood God" cultists.
I respectfully disagree the quiet removal of a player has no significance.
Do not forget the 4 hour torturing (real time) or Trish, her assassination, then left for dead. She hid out for a month or so (real time) only to come out of hiding to confess to the guards, be tortured a little more and then again... Disappear without a trace. Many knew Trish on the Server and bought stuff from her. Some had personal relationships with her (IC) and her situations sent people into a freny. I know I personally will never trust the Vardo after that (IC) and have taken a severe beating (IC) from one of the people she had relations with. The death of one PC can effect the stories of other PCs. When the whole thing went down with Denalie, Trish and the "New" Vardo, the feeling was tense and it seemed that the "Old" Vardo was about to have a reckoning. (I did not know this was an OOC vendetta, so all of my impression stem from IC experiences) The Vardo headquarters got raided, seemed like some wrists got slapped and life went on.
Next time I encountered the "New" Vardo, it was as if it never happened. I am not sure as to what happened behind the scenes, but I know this was very disappointing IC to not have closure to the story. Like reading an intense story full of intrigue and deception, only to find out the final chapter was torn out. Then Denallie "Disappeared" and that was that. No more talk of it, Trish is gone, and as far as I know for good, so the story ends in a massive "?"
I move on to other stories which has be greatly entertaining, thank you to Dragon Mystique and Nefensis as well as the many other PCs that have come in from time to time (you know who you are and thank you :) ), but it is an unfortunate effect of offing quietly a PC involved in a pretty major plotline that those of us involved as well, never know what happened.
Oh well...
As a side note, I had no idea so many PCs had been Permed... YIKES!!
Post by: failed.bard on August 17, 2008, 12:44:16 AM
Quote
As a side note, I had no idea so many PCs had been Permed... YIKES!!
Dribo had met all of those people, so that's just the last 8-9 months, and I doubt it's all of them from that span, even if you include Trish, who I thought was simply retired as opposed to dead.
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on August 17, 2008, 01:18:46 AM
As a side note, I had no idea so many PCs had been Permed... YIKES!!
Far from complete list. This was a subset of whom I could think of off the top of my head. ;)
Post by: failed.bard on August 17, 2008, 01:21:58 AM
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on August 17, 2008, 01:59:38 AM
Quote
Vardo's count in that time is two: Denalie and Illeanna, oh and Regno. So your previous statement, as DMs, and Vardo players have said previously, does not stand.
At the risk of revealing information I learned as a DM, I cannot elaborate- but I can say that it was NOT the Vardo that killed Denalie. She was killed, but it was by another faction inteirly, and no Vardo PC arranged for it to happen.
The Vardo aren't untouchable, and they NEVER WERE. You just don't know everything thats going on. Why don't you know everything thats going on? Your PC's. "But not knowing whats going on upsets us!" Yes. Thats the point of the gothic theme. Your not supposed to understand everything that happens.
Want me to throw out some examples? Several Vardo pc's lost their souls and were extorted to do jobs for a certian group. At one point, Julia was geased by Strahd to never be able to betray him and forced to do his bidding. The difference is when something bad happens to the Vardo they close up and keep it within the family, as opposed to telling everyone about it.
Fact of the matter is, the Vardo do what they do because they do it in a smart enough way to get away with it. When certain tactics stopped working, there was a backlash and they had to change strategies. Everyone HATED the Vardo for a good few weeks- ironically, not because of any true IC activities, because Denalie was never actually activly threatened by the family except perhaps by someone like Illeanna going off the handle. It was all derived from pure OOC bias from players who had tendencies (I wouldn't be so dramatic as to say someone had a thought out vendetta) that caused them to be antagonistic to the RVT faction group.
And that practice also countinues to this day- I know players with whom EVERY character they play makes it their mission to frustrate the faction and attack it. If this was IC I would have no problem with it, but people are just frustrated OOCly. I am becoming very frustrated with having to be constantly suspicious of everyone metagaming or meta-factioning (I invented a new term!)
The Vallaki Guard are the ones who permakill most players. For the most part the Vardo are simply a mechanism for another factions dynamics- they are used by all the other factions to do what they themselves cannot, so they tend to be the 'hand' of events. They are a MECHANISM for death, not the cause in the majority of situations.
Post by: Nefensis on August 17, 2008, 02:04:01 AM
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on August 17, 2008, 02:08:20 AM
Post by: Kaspar on August 17, 2008, 02:08:55 AM
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on August 17, 2008, 02:12:27 AM
Post by: Nefensis on August 17, 2008, 02:20:33 AM
Ugly practice = giving you ic info on this forum to justify anything. Nobody needs to justify anything, if there's a problem with a faction, their faction dm can handle it throught the proper channels.
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on August 17, 2008, 02:21:22 AM
I don't know a whole lot about half of the people on that list, but most of what I see are not exactly quiet removals. Like Failed Bard said, Dribo's was public; the destruction of Tatyana as well, if the entire server was hunting her, I wouldn't consider quiet; Tagdar... well, has a statue, so his death isn't a mystery; and the rest were either quiet, or before my time.
My point, and also I believe the consensus of the original topic, is that death should have a large impact on the world, not constantly be teased. I take that consensus and conclude that death should be something that impacts a majority of the server; by causing a death and having nearly every player on the server "not be privy" to that event makes the death, in my opinion, somewhat of a waste.
In the end most permadeaths are the result of two character in PvP with one beating the other, or sometimes its a group effort against the one. Not everyone is given a public execution such as is given by the guards.
Also note. Those cool political assassinations you spoke of in another post can and do occur and in truth are the primary reason for any perma death. Someone or some group has upset someone else or other group enough that they are going to spend a significant portion of their RP towards the removal of the other character from the game. IC reasons, IC actions, IC results.
Post by: failed.bard on August 17, 2008, 02:26:36 AM
OOCly, I know who authorized her death, and who did it. ICly, there are probably two or three NPCs and one PC who know the truth.
Post by: Iconoclast on August 17, 2008, 02:27:29 AM
Lets be cool. When the topic turned to the Red Vardo, I was a bit concerned since I didn't want things to get ugly. But for the most part, folks have been decent to one another.
The details around Denalie though, I would rather see no discussion of too much, because the impact is still in play. Was just a day ago when the memmorial service was held for her. It isn't as if it is actient past, unless if someone has a short attention span.
We'll have those Red Vardos attending Church every Fifth Day. :mrgreen:
Edit: Jeesh, fast postings here, might indicate tempers flairing....or not. :|
Post by: failed.bard on August 17, 2008, 02:30:47 AM
Quote
Edit: Jeesh, fast postings here, might indicate tempers flairing....or not.
It's been pretty civil for a thread that's this potentially inflaming. I think part of the number of posts is due to people not really being able to dungeon, and more people in game following the forums at the same time they're on, as opposed to after they're done playing.
Post by: Iconoclast on August 17, 2008, 02:33:21 AM
In the case of the Denalie situation, the character felt threatened, all the people around her understood this, and when she disappeared, it was assumed, based on in character knowledge, that the only group that would benefit from her disappearance was responsible for it. Saying that is in any way based on OOC bias is just wrong. It's based on assumptions based on the tendencies people had seen, again, in character, of the vardo at that time. The fact the vardo had kidnapped and tortured the merchant before Denalie that competed against them, again, learned about in character by most people, only strengthened the belief they were behind it.
OOCly, I know who authorized her death, and who did it. ICly, there are probably two or three NPCs and one PC who know the truth.
Very good point. That is one thing so tragic about the Red Vardo story, is that their past hangs over them. Even if the Red Vardo had no part in Denalie's murder/disappearance, due to their history, and the whole crafting guild agenda, the Red Vardo would suffer the blame of it one way or another. Denalie had made many friends in various places and so her story involvment with the Red Vardo ended up impacting all those people, and the friends of those people.
Only so many people can go missing in a village the size of Vallaki before all fingers point in the same direction, regardless of the facts.
Quite a fun story to take part in.
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on August 17, 2008, 02:36:36 AM
Post by: k_moustakas on August 17, 2008, 02:57:59 AM
nobody remembers Rage... he was klilled by the vardo too...
*quietly weeping*
Post by: Delphinidae on August 17, 2008, 03:00:35 AM
QuoteEdit: Jeesh, fast postings here, might indicate tempers flairing....or not.
It's been pretty civil for a thread that's this potentially inflaming. I think part of the number of posts is due to people not really being able to dungeon, and more people in game following the forums at the same time they're on, as opposed to after they're done playing.
I have to agree, and as long as it remains civil it stays open. Guys, please do not make me lock this thread or you will not be allowed to express your concerns.
Post by: failed.bard on August 17, 2008, 03:03:23 AM
*starts crying*
nobody remembers Rage... he was klilled by the vardo too...
*quietly weeping*
That's because he's not perma'd. Undead isn't dead, and we were only listing the dead.
Post by: k_moustakas on August 17, 2008, 03:07:16 AM
Post by: archonzero on August 17, 2008, 03:08:58 AM
Point of fact main reason I left the Vardo was simple. I felt the issues of a few months past were more than IC related or even enjoyable for some of those involved. The growing tensions and pressures on the Vardo seemed to be more and more OOC related, grudges seemed evident despite methods used IC to repair/mend or push on from. Not saying either side in particular is to exactly to blame as it's a failing on each side for not communicating clearly or allowing personal issues to cloud IG judgement. Though as time progressed and these elements continued as well turned up with fresh faces with posturing towards a faction(s)/group(s) it did become apparent it wasn't an IC or IG issue ... and to me it blurred the line of enjoyment of being Vardo.
I removed myself from association even though I had a partial hand in one of the events that led up to the growing discontent/issues. I felt I had stepped into the middle of something that was already over my head and less than IC ... the backlashes from it I've done my best to steer around ... more so because I felt the situation wasn't true to the gaming environment or enjoyable for myself and felt to be punished ICly for something that carried a heavy scent of OOC issues I have no desire to be part of.
Yes there are consequences characters should be liable to deal with.. but I really felt that the consequences tied to that atmosphere were more OOC than IC and not worth jeopardizing my own enjoyment/stories. Factions for me was fun for a moment, a bit of prestige.. that really turned sour on my tongue. I miss the entire Danielle leadership ... and the disappearance really didn't make sense to me IC.. though I knew the reasons OOCly.
Post by: failed.bard on August 17, 2008, 03:16:32 AM
yeah but he only became undead because he was permakilled!
He became undead /instead/ of being permakilled. I remember you posting at the time saying how it worked out made perfect sense for the character, based on the story up to that point. Whether or not the character is suited for dungeoning or not is really irrelevent, as monster templates are primarily intended as roleplay enhancers.
Post by: DM Tarokka on August 17, 2008, 04:43:56 AM
Post by: DM Tarokka on August 17, 2008, 06:48:47 AM
F.
Post by: Helaman on August 17, 2008, 08:36:17 AM
Post by: k_moustakas on August 17, 2008, 10:49:52 AM
About Okaris and Okaris' : *slightly off topic*
Spoiler: show
Actually my half application was saying in many different words how I plan to accomplice that. The OOC stuff was totally irrelevant to him. Up until being told to call it off by the undead faction (and the last person I wanted to mess with going off limits), I was trying very hard to accomplice it. True, once it all went poof, I got bored with my undead and stopped playing him. If what all the vardo's say about their faction being in shambles is true, he more or less accompliced that goal and he can rest in peace. Rest assured, if trouble starts again he'll show up 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About the vardo's in general and those associated with them: *slightly off topic*
Spoiler: show
On the subject of guards: How many times has an execution being carried out on someone who wasn't a criminal worthy of being executed? And this is a question, not innuendo or ironic question. I personally know only one, but then I never really played someone antagonistic to the guards. I'd like to hear more.
*To Helaman* More or less why I run away from the morninglordians. The IC story with Bel gave me a good opportunity. Couldn't leave the undead really and it was suggested to me I was getting privy to too much OOC info (by someone outside both factions, all respect) What would I do if some faction thing broke out? Who would I play and how? Still, if something does break up, rest assured neither character will get involved at all.
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Post by: DM Shadowspawn on August 17, 2008, 11:09:32 AM
Post by: nakedxXbeauty on August 17, 2008, 11:26:16 AM
Post by: Badbelly on August 17, 2008, 11:55:07 AM
Post by: Iconoclast on August 17, 2008, 12:00:41 PM
To be honest, I can't even fathom why this topic is still open. In my opinion, all it's doing is giving people a reason to get angry at each other. Any character, technically, can be killed by another character/faction. It happens, and it's probably going to keep happening no matter how much people whine and cry and throw tantrums. We are all playing a game, that's all this is. You can get as pissed off as you want because little level 15 cast happy Bob was perma killed. That isn't going to make you feel any better. Sure, you can moan on the forums all you want, but in the end, you can make another "Bob". I don't understand why people get SO angry about factions, or their character being killed. Sure, after leveling Joslyn for however many months I've been leveling her, I'd probably be a little disappointed that she's dead. That being said, I have other characters, and even if I didn't have fun with them, I could always make another. What people need to get through their heads is that this -is- just a game. It's made for people to have fun with, and I don't see people having fun when they're making posts on the forums about how unfair it was that their character was killed. If you're going to take a game that seriously, maybe you really shouldn't be playing it. This is to the point where I know for a fact the ooc ranting of players is making the game not so fun for people who just want to have a good time. It needs to stop. People need to back the hell off, and grow up. Play the damn game the way it was meant to be played!
It would be a mistake to categorize or imply anyone who has constructive criticism as just moaning or whining. Also, using language such as "People need to back the hell off, and grow up" is inappropriate and also counter productive.
If such a tone continues I imagine this thread will be locked until the tempers behind such posts are calmed.
Post by: Delphinidae on August 17, 2008, 12:12:43 PM
To be honest, I can't even fathom why this topic is still open. In my opinion, all it's doing is giving people a reason to get angry at each other. Any character, technically, can be killed by another character/faction. It happens, and it's probably going to keep happening no matter how much people whine and cry and throw tantrums. We are all playing a game, that's all this is. You can get as pissed off as you want because little level 15 cast happy Bob was perma killed. That isn't going to make you feel any better. Sure, you can moan on the forums all you want, but in the end, you can make another "Bob". I don't understand why people get SO angry about factions, or their character being killed. Sure, after leveling Joslyn for however many months I've been leveling her, I'd probably be a little disappointed that she's dead. That being said, I have other characters, and even if I didn't have fun with them, I could always make another. What people need to get through their heads is that this -is- just a game. It's made for people to have fun with, and I don't see people having fun when they're making posts on the forums about how unfair it was that their character was killed. If you're going to take a game that seriously, maybe you really shouldn't be playing it. This is to the point where I know for a fact the ooc ranting of players is making the game not so fun for people who just want to have a good time. It needs to stop. People need to back the hell off, and grow up. Play the damn game the way it was meant to be played!
I have to agree with Iconoclast. There are better ways to express this. Anyway, locking this thread till people cool off. Please refer any concerns you may have to the CC.