Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Holy_Rage on July 24, 2008, 02:26:48 AM
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Hello everyone. I don't know if it is a luxury to have or if it is easy to code or not, but at level up, at the last screen before confirming the level up , you got a line "Hit points gained: + xx ". It's the first line appearing in the level up summary box.
Now, I would like to see the "xx" number of hit points be made invisible, so we will avoid min/maxing with hp and for realism's sake. One may argue that one can easily end up with minimal HP gain after a 2-3 rolls. I say this is the more realistic and honest way to level up HP-wise, with not Cancel, start level up process anew until max HP is achieved for that particular level.
Thoughts?
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I'd rather we get automatic HP max roll at lvl up, as is doable in the new update.
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How are the Hit Points generated with the npc monsters that are faced in pvm?
Do they have max hp or is it random?
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Thats determined in the creator. You can make a monsters hp anything you want.
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I'd rather we get automatic HP max roll at lvl up, as is doable in the new update.
Not really in favor of this. One of the joys of levelling up is the unknown in that aspect, let the dice speak :)
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The hit dice already don't roll correctly. My sorceror always gets a 3 or 4 on the roll. My barbarian's fluctuates a lot more. I've also noticed the more con you have, the larger the roll's range is. Unless the rolls are fixed, doing something like that would just torture and punish the fighter classes. The rogue/fighters would end up with the same hp as a fighter.
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In a game where the attribute points are fixed , the hit points probably should be too. (imo)
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You roll a minimum of 55% of the d you are rolling.
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I am in favour of automatic max hit points. 90% of the people already roll and cancel until they get max.
On the other side, try a fighter that rolls 1 for hit points twice in a row and you have a wasted character.
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I am in favour of automatic max hit points. 90% of the people already roll and cancel until they get max.
On the other side, try a fighter that rolls 1 for hit points twice in a row and you have a wasted character.
A wasted character because of two bad rolls in a row? I'd hardly view it that way, sure it makes things a lot more difficult but it doesn't make the character unplayable.
If it's going to be fixed HP, I'd prefer the average die roll over max. HP. NWN2 uses maxed HP by default and it throws quite a bit of balancing out of the window.
If given the choice, I'd go for making the roll invisible like Holy_Rage suggested.
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I take my HP level rolls if they are 75% or higher, anything less is a waste and gets rerolled. Especially if you compare the damage output, the crit ranges and high AB of the creatures you face as you get stronger. Hit points for practically all classes (perhaps casters aside) are a reflection on your ability of resilience to damage.
For example a level one fighter taking an 11 hp dmg hit is either near mortally wounded or dead. Same fighter at level two who has had combat or enough field practise can take the same 11 point hit and survive, why cause he's learned to deflect, roll or avoid the majority of the blow. Either through prediction, premonition, or through reflexive response. The higher any martially skilled class gains in levels should be reflective of such measures.
So I for one would vote auto max HP on all classes, just for the sake of not having to reroll. OR forcible setup the function to set the roll for 50% class HPl + con to max class HP +con ratios.
just my 2 coppers on HP per level gain.
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Give monsters max HP, for their HD. Give the player characters the max HP, for their HD. That way, it's still balanced, and you won't get killed by a spitwad (unless you're Morgan.) There's enough extra randomness with the Constitution score.
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I'm with -not- cheesing the dice H. R. , [shrugs] I take what I get. Always. There is a feat if a few HPs are desired. In my experience here, the dice are random as should be, not fixed like others feel above. The thoughts to make all HPs maxed to me is like saying we should remove attack rolls to and take 10 on everything. Before everyone makes a bunch of comments about my opinion, please remember, that is all it is.
-Gilta-
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I say leave as it is, if you dont like re-roll then dont, if you want to reroll then do, freedom to choose.
P.S, personally i like max hp, because try re-roll it for hours it is booring !
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Give monsters max HP, for their HD. Give the player characters the max HP, for their HD. That way, it's still balanced, and you won't get killed by a spitwad (unless you're Morgan.) There's enough extra randomness with the Constitution score.
No, it unfortunately doesn't work that way. Everything in D&D is balanced around average HP values: weapon damage, critical hit multipliers, spell damage, etc.
Changing that requires a lot more work than just giving creatures full HP as well, that would accomplish nothing but:
a) Make battles unnecessarily longer
b) Make it a lot more difficult for low levels
c) Make casters slightly weaker (actually a good thing, but not worth the trade-off in my opinion)
There are also effects that are specific to the NWN engine, such as having to manually adjust every creature's CR in the toolset as NWN seems to calculate CR partially based on HP.
For example a standard skeleton in the toolset has a CR of 0.5 and 6 HP (D12 hit die for undead), raising the HP to 12 (maximum for a 1 hit die skeleton) will raise the CR to 1. While it can then be lowered manually to 0.5 again, the skeleton (if employed in the same numbers as before) will be much more of a challenge than it is supposed to be.
Using maxed out HPs for player characters in a heroic setting where the PCs should feel epic and powerful from the beginning might be ok, in a setting like Ravenloft where you should have to constantly fear for your life it would be rather detrimental to the atmosphere.
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Maxing out HP has always been at DM's discretion in PnP, we did it because we liked stronger characters and like Ken said, so we don't get killed by a spitwad. In a computer game i don't see why not taking advantage of what we can get, there's no sense in making your character weak on purpose, some weaker points for rp's sake yes but survival is important. Damn famished wolves at lvl 3, trying to eat my measly 21hp q.q
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Give monsters max HP, for their HD. Give the player characters the max HP, for their HD. That way, it's still balanced, and you won't get killed by a spitwad (unless you're Morgan.) There's enough extra randomness with the Constitution score.
No, it unfortunately doesn't work that way. Everything in D&D is balanced around average HP values: weapon damage, critical hit multipliers, spell damage, etc.
Changing that requires a lot more work than just giving creatures full HP as well, that would accomplish nothing but:
a) Make battles unnecessarily longer
b) Make it a lot more difficult for low levels
c) Make casters slightly weaker (actually a good thing, but not worth the trade-off in my opinion)
There are also effects that are specific to the NWN engine, such as having to manually adjust every creature's CR in the toolset as NWN seems to calculate CR partially based on HP.
For example a standard skeleton in the toolset has a CR of 0.5 and 6 HP (D12 hit die for undead), raising the HP to 12 (maximum for a 1 hit die skeleton) will raise the CR to 1. While it can then be lowered manually to 0.5 again, the skeleton (if employed in the same numbers as before) will be much more of a challenge than it is supposed to be.
Using maxed out HPs for player characters in a heroic setting where the PCs should feel epic and powerful from the beginning might be ok, in a setting like Ravenloft where you should have to constantly fear for your life it would be rather detrimental to the atmosphere.
Eh. If I wanted to get killed by a single big hit, I'd go play Call of Cthulhu or something. Regardless of Ravenloft being more scary, and low magic, it's still DnD, and this is still a NwN engine that can be very unforgiving. It's not a story-telling engine, and the fear you get from thinking some monster being run by an AI can smack you once and obliterate isn't the same fear as you'd get during a table-top game, with a DM always there tweaking and promoting the atmosphere the entire time. Not killing someone when you can and letting them run (especially here) is a thousand times scarier than dying. Crappy hit points = more chance to be outright slaughtered, and there's no "fear" involved when you pounded into the dirt in two seconds. There's just the inevitable "oh, I'm dead." And then wondering if it's going to be permanent and how long you're going to be out of commision. The real fear disappears the minute you die and can't RP anymore, since the decisions from that point on are totally out of your hands until you're raised.
I'd rather people have max hit points if they want them, and have more of a chance to run like scared children. I'm never scared when I get obliterated by some one shot nonsense (wee, greater ruin!) I'm just REALLY irritated. I'm scared when I'm getting pounded and can see my steady decline, having time to consider if I should run, or hold out through greed and stubborness and maybe fail due to my own stupidity and not just sheer bad luck. Fear is running for your life, praying you don't die and your weapons don't get stolen, and you don't sit around for an hour waiting for a resurrection. Fear isn't the part where you die from a single 80 point crit from a greater broken one champion, without having had time to consider how screwed you could be.
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Poll added. A friendly reminder to everyone, this is Holy_Rage gauging interest about it, nothing more, nothing less.
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Don't fix what's not broken, there's enough else to be worked on
Too, nothing forces you to max your HP and that others do so, changes nothing to my personal RP experience.
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Hide the number. There is a reason Hitpoints are Rolled, it's supposed to be one of the variables that sets folks apart. I take whatever the machine gives me, and I do look down my nose in a snooty manner at those that don't. In short, it's one of the differences between a ROLE PLAY mechanic, and a Strict Computer Game or Board Game mechanic. This is also one of the reasons that 4th Ed got rid of rolling hitpoints all together, to get rid of the Muhammad Ali, rope a dope factor when 8 con Charlie (who maxes all of his hitpoints per level) can outlast Forkbeard the Enduring (20 con dwarf that rolls average). Now, you GET the average as a static, modified by class level and feats, and start with more hitpoints at a lower level as well.
Most of the servers I have played on, Hide that number. It's always worked out extremely well.
~Rex
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The hit dice already don't roll correctly. My sorceror always gets a 3 or 4 on the roll. My barbarian's fluctuates a lot more. I've also noticed the more con you have, the larger the roll's range is. Unless the rolls are fixed, doing something like that would just torture and punish the fighter classes. The rogue/fighters would end up with the same hp as a fighter.
He nailed it. The range between minimum and maximum roll is a lot more troublesome as your character gets more hit points to play with.
If you want my opinion, I'd rather just have it auto-max, since there's a lot of new players to NWN that always randomly come out saying "Crap, I didn't know you could max out, I'll do that next time." Majority of players favor maxing, it's always been that way, and the current status of the poll is starting to show that, too.
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You can set it to Give the Average of the Roll plus Con as well. Regardless, I haven't noticed any disparity between my low hit die PC's and my high hit die PC's. Of course there is a range difference since the lower the hit die, the lower the range.
Having taken the time to sit down and actually measure this effect on a level up with each hit die, I can assure you, AVERAGE, is what comes up the majority of the time.
~Rex
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I'll give you a good example: I have a character that has massive AC, but low HP. 99% of the time, things have to roll a 20 to hit him, so in the end, the time speant actually fighting depends on his HP.
HP is important, it just depends on your other stats. If you have terrible AC/Saves but high HP, it's more or less not going to mean anything to have HP.
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I think it would be smart to hide the HP rolling. That, or max everyone. I max my HP only because I know other people max HP as well, so that if I get caught in a PvP situation, I know at -least- in terms of HP we are on equal grounds. Little bit unfair for my 5th lvl 60hp barb to duke it out with another 5th lvl Barb with 30hp, at least in my mind.
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Unless you both have the same exactly equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if the 30 hit point one bested the 60 hit point one.
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I think it would be smart to hide the HP rolling. That, or max everyone. I max my HP only because I know other people max HP as well, so that if I get caught in a PvP situation, I know at -least- in terms of HP we are on equal grounds. Little bit unfair for my 5th lvl 60hp barb to duke it out with another 5th lvl Barb with 30hp, at least in my mind.
I don't Max my hitpoints and I can think of at least 5 other people that don't either. Therefore, folks are not on equal ground with you. As for the fair thing, Let's see if I can translate something over from my MMA hobby for you.
There are MASSIVELY skilled fighters, that simply can't take a hit. There are complete No Skill having HACKS, that win matches based on the fact, that they can take a beating like a brick wall. Just because two are Eqaul in experience, doesn't mean two should be equal in durability. Some things just are not supposed to be fair.
~Rex
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I don't max hps because its munchkin-ish.
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I always maxed HP. If you don't want to, don't, it's your choice.
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(http://www.giftwala.com/images/product_images/FMDN102-m.jpg)
*munch munch*
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Hiding hips points on level up is one of the BEST features in this new update.. I am all for using it.. Lets get some variety instead of the cookie cutter PCs we have now. There is no good RP reason to be able to max hitpoints.
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There is no good RP reason to be able to max hitpoints.
There's no good RP reason for someone getting better HP who spends his days drinking and levels through chatting than someone who'd eat, work and train regulary.
I'm definitely for automatically maxing HP. If HP is randomized, ability points should be too. Other thing is that if it was randomized, new chars would be in huge disadvantage to old chars. By average a Barbarian with fully random HP could have 100 HP less at level 20 than someone who always maxed. :roll:
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Hiding hips points on level up is one of the BEST features in this new update.. I am all for using it.. Lets get some variety instead of the cookie cutter PCs we have now. There is no good RP reason to be able to max hitpoints.
What i don't understand is how the amount of XP received at level affects in any way shape or form, your gaming experience. Not for my by any means, when i roleplay with someone, the degree of his health and how many times does it take for a mummy to hit me before i fall, never actually comes up.
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By that token, you could say that playing characters with 20's in all their stats, also doesn't come up in roleplay. This game wasn't designed with max hps being taken into account, and by maxing your hps, I believe you cheapen your experience.
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By that token, you could say that playing characters with 20's in all their stats, also doesn't come up in roleplay. This game wasn't designed with max hps being taken into account, and by maxing your hps, I believe you cheapen your experience.
Completely different situation, HP are numbers crunching, you cant really explain why you have 21 hp instead of 20 through rp mechanics, ability scores affect your altogether appearance and skills. Too they comes in limited amount, you get 1 every 4 levels, HP is dice based, random or maxed, it changes nothing to how i roleplay my character.
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i just go with the rolls, never redo level up just because of hp, what i get is what i get. I certainly know ellana isn't maxed out, with a 14 con, toughness, at level 14- 7 rogue/6 fighter/1 cleric. . .maxed i would have about. . .eh. . does math.
154 i think, yes. But, just going with rolls she has about 138 or 136. . .granted the few hp might be a little helpful, but i honestly don't think it matters. For those constantly training there is toughness, though thats as far as it goes with out epic levels.
It is possible, of course, to allow such feats, but that is up to the dev team i think if they want to make such available to people under lvl 20.
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I don't max hps because its munchkin-ish.
Exactly. Hit points are the variety meant to represent varying degrees of endurance and toughness. To max it, ALL the time, is the act of munchkinism.
I always maxed HP. If you don't want to, don't, it's your choice.
Yep my choice to be surrounded by Munchkins that will sit there for an hour in the middle of a scene, leveling their PC till they get Max hit points. You get lucky, more power to you. You just reset, re-roll, rinse, repeat, Not much variety behind that at all. Sort of like the Baldur's Gate days when the same sort of player would sit there and re-roll till they got all 16's or higher. Seems to me to be contrary to the "goals" of a Role Play Server to let a handful of numbers dictate the law.
By that token, you could say that playing characters with 20's in all their stats, also doesn't come up in roleplay. This game wasn't designed with max hps being taken into account, and by maxing your hps, I believe you cheapen your experience.
Completely different situation, HP are numbers crunching, you cant really explain why you have 21 hp instead of 20 through rp mechanics, ability scores affect your altogether appearance and skills. Too they comes in limited amount, you get 1 every 4 levels, HP is dice based, random or maxed, it changes nothing to how i roleplay my character.
Hitpoints, are as much a part of your ability scores as any other Stat. They are just the only ones the game let's you roll randomly. Attributes were reduced to the point spend system because no one would want to play in the land of everyone sat there and rolled straight 18's before they jumped into the PW. Sure, point spending tends to turn those same munchkins, into Dump Stat-ers, but I'd rather deal with Josie I'm a Hot chick Wood Elf with a 6 Charisma, then Captain Americlone 576.
Unfortunently, that Number (hitpoints) DOES effect the way those kind of People Play. If it didn't, there would be no people trying to mount a defense against the hiding of a number.
~Rex
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Love how this thread's become another "Your RP sucks becuase you do this" discussion.
:clap:
:roll:
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Do I have to explain why I locked this thread? Thread is no longer a discussion on whether the HP given are to remain hidden or visible. I let it derail to getting max HP because I considered it a valid arguement in the "visible and non visible HP" debate. Locked.