Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Nefensis on July 07, 2008, 09:31:34 PM
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A few days into the new changes, no more potions available in stores, no more dwarven armor and weapons or elven bows and armors.
The lost of most of the potions and of the weapons and armors isnt too terrible, it's actually helping a lot the crafters. Thumbs up.
The lack of healing in the form of potion is painful to the people that adventure. Clerics and other healers usually keep their slots for buffs.
As the major potion distributor, i can say without a doubt that i cannot provide for half the server with the potions i receive from my crafters. Personally i can blow through as much as 20 medium wound potions into a dungeon, because they used to be so widely available but now it's down to none or so. And that is a problem.
I saw Mad Dok dosn't sell his potions either, without a crafter in the drain, it becomes very very limited where the outcasts can get any kind of potion supplies. The NPC still dosn't even raise unless a dm is present, dosn't cure disease or cure level drain either. They have to tempt the devil by going to the church of the Morninglord.
I believe cure light wounds and cure medium wounds should be still available in certain stores, leave Mad Dok with his old brews and it would be easier for everyone. People still bought the healing potions from me while they were available in the stores.
FYI : Now i really didn't post this feedback to get comments on how i should handle or plan ahead my resources while in dungeons. These are observations made simply by roleplaying my merchant. When an NPC approached me, i could barely give him 5 potions of cure light wound, because that's all i had. And i have 3 providers of potions.
-edited to correct a detail
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one thing i'd like to see if herbalism crafters able to make insta heal kits! ala mad dok like i dont understand why mad dok can fashion those but an herbalist cant make them....
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I agree this is one instance where 'reality' is hurting the game experience.
Not everyone has access to a friendly healer... and the morninglord cyrpts are something I feel guilty about as I raid for potions.
No healing potions = death. With the new rest system you get ONE shot every 6-12 minutes to heal... meaning that if healing reserves are stretched and you hit a bad run of luck you will need to pull out or wait 2 to 3 healing periods to continue... in once sense, cool... in another? that could suck.
Also while I am in a way supportive of some of the nifty store stuff going, will they find their way into loot tables? Or be lost to the mists?
Because I haven't seen ironwood armours or DeSzeo's (the trap armour) drop EVER.
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There are other NPC's that can give you healing potions, more potent ones than the morninglord ones.
Won't spoil it more.
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I could have sworn I saw a cauldron in the Drain. *shrugs*
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lol I start to just hide (scared to be injuryed) , when in dungeons with people.. hardly helping.
Then again im undead... see where you can find potions for that ;).
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There are other NPC's that can give you healing potions, more potent ones than the morninglord ones.
Won't spoil it more.
Another potion that requires a farming of some sort to get some healing potions, at lvl 12 i don't go farm the crypt so i can get access to some potions. Those should be reserved for low levels, then again those stronger potions available, requires some potions of their own to aquire the material to get to them. It's a vicious circle.
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There is a cauldron in the Drain, but it is of very limited use for three reasons.
A: There needs to be someone who USES the cauldron. We currently have only one PC Caliban that does that.
B: There has to be enough ingredients to make a quantity of potions large enough to satisfy the demand, which there isn't.
C: Players will only devote so much time to crafting. They want to RP too, they are not just endless potion machines.
This is all very limiting on the availability of any type of potion nowadays.
Personally, I say remove the higher end potions, sure, but leave the ones up to Cure Moderate wounds, at least, so that people hace some recourse in lieu of finding a crafter.
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The Drain crafter is on break, the new systems are demoralizing. Another thing to point out, we cant always rely on PCs to be around to fulfill our needs.
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I think some time needs to be given first to this. If an in game shortage of healing supplies begin to effect most characters, then lets see what characters working together can do about it. An ingame plan could be made involving a few of the cooperative factions, towards the gathering of healing ingredients and the brewing of.
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What I don't understand is that back when we were discussing the idea of PC mules for storage, the common agreement from the devs was that we didn't want to put reliance on PC, since that would become a problem if the PCs lost interest.
How is that different from the current setup we have? Right now, if all PC crafters stopped playing, we'd lose our ability to get healing and equipment.
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The Drain crafter is on break, the new systems are demoralizing. Another thing to point out, we cant always rely on PCs to be around to fulfill our needs.
Yeah - always been a problem that...
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I think pc crafters will come together then, based to some fun role playing involving a lack of healing supplies, and these herbalist for example, could be healers and such from various factions, working together using their faction resources and strengths towards ensuring that healing is provided to those in need.
If Nelll is informed of a healing potion shortage, she might reach out to other herbalist, to the Cult of the Morninglord, and see if a group effort to provide the healing can be made.
This change might taste sour at first, but there is at least some positive role playing that can result.
Conflict brings characters together. Healing supplies, a serious lack of, can be a conflict that brings many together.
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Issue handled easily if you would get a potion of cure light wounds instead of a cloth belt, a potion of cure moderate instead of a tarnished wedding band, etc etc etc.....
Honestly though. I play a gimpy fighter. I can get into two Dungeons maybe three if I'm lucky. Got no gear to speak of, and yet, I can find another non caster to trade and buy a few potions from, and I am never in a situation where I need 30 something potions to complete a goal. If you are in that situation you are someplace you should not be.
While a touch annoyed at the practice of Removing stuff before implementing the replacement (To me this is sort of like coming out with a new brand of tire, so to prepare, people go steal all the wheels off your car, leaving you on blocks for a month before the tire shipment arrives), I'm actually MORE affluent in potions now, then I was when you could go buy them. So many people selling them (though most need to take an economics class or 6 so they can understand marketing and margins), Otto actually turns people away.
Play smarter, don't be running around with the "Beer Hat" on so you can swill down potions like an extra in the movie Beer Fest, and not being able to buy the potions from a store becomes a non issue. Speaking for a few others (hmmm funny, all non casters non sneaks), we're actually getting along quite well. People wouldn't need so many potions if they weren't all out trying to swim in the deep end before they are qualified to dog paddle (Check some of the screen shots lately. 17th level, 18th level, 15th level, Wait....there they are, two or three 6th to 8th level people tagging along. Or worse, a 2nd.).
Right now it's at about that point where the lightweights are getting annoyed with the crafting, the herd is thinning so to speak which is a good thing since that will open the door to those more seriously interested in it.
Hell combined with the new rest system, I actually do Better, since I play a lot smarter now. Still don't know what people are crying about in regards to the rest system, if you time your crawls right, you can actually rest more often without having to run for the nearest tavern. I don't think the new systems are demoralizing at all. Being a gearless Fighter in a server of Sneaks with more Sneak then Mask, and Casters that One shot Pit Fiends is demoralizing. Having to actually work at a trade that's basically, insanely cheap, with a captured audience later to sell the stuff to, seems like a pretty good deal.
Yeah there is a cauldron in the drain, actually considered using it with one of my Ban's but there are IC reasons for that PC as to why I'm not doing it. May change soon though. Still waiting for some rebuild/move stuff from the DM's so I can ditch feats and skills that are no longer in use by the server. Not like any other 'Ban can step up and give it a go I suppose.
The root complaint in this thread seems to me to be more related to MONEY, is Easy to Get, and it was EASIER, to Buy 50 billion gallons of Potions, then it is to Find a crafter or craft it themselves. Have to say, I don't really miss those potions since really, couldn't get them at those places anyway and when I bought a potion, it was usually something from Bervis.
Uping Potions as Treasure though, would take up this slack everyone keeps talking about.
Last word, Up to me I'd make it more difficult to weed out all the wimps. But then I would also make casters Use components so they don't spam spells with multi thousand GP value gem's as a power source. Over all I think the crafting system is on the right track but then I am used to a PC driven economy. It's not that difficult.
~Rex
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I'll cut right through the BS: With all the stuff that's been removed from the stores, the loot drops that are a joke, etc., the only RP being generated is sleep. The game has become a snooze fest.
I don't see anyone at Murnu's or at the Degannwy merchant anymore. There was a time when you could run into 3 or 4 chars and shoot the breeze while browsing their goods. No more because there's nothing to buy. How many plots were furthered there? How much information was passed along as gossip and converstaion. That RP just didn't matter or was it the wrong kind of RP?
Quite honestly, in my line of work I often see things that have me shaking my head while saying to myself "what the hell were they thinking"? These recent changes are one of those times. I haven't heard one person say "wow these changes are great and really add to the game". The only thing I'm hearing from most (not all) is that they're bored.
And for those who love the changes because it adds to their "immersion" and sense of "realism", heres'a dose of reality: This is a fictitious story, in a fictitious place, with fictitious characters. Yes, I really do understand the game in that it is supposed to be entertainment.
However, for those who do need their reality in this setting, they could've played their game with or without potions/weapons/scrolls if they so chose without impacting anyone else's game. Anyone could've played this game bare butt and without weapons if they wanted to and could take a squat in the bushes when the need arose. No need for a gamewide change or any pontificating how someone else should be playing their game or which crafter should make it a full time job.
This latest round of changes has only added to the frustration of new players who can't get healed, older players who've figured out there's no loot to be had out there so why bother gathering a party for an adventure and the general population that has nothng to buy/browse/equipment to dream about/etc. When healing and the pursuit of healing becomes a major endeavor, something is out of whack.
Btw, It's the little things that make life interesting both ingame and in RL and not some grand scheme of "what's supposed to be". Folks are always saying that players should drive the game. Good idea: Let's start by having players decide if they want to buy something, craft something, hunt something and stop shoveling people into a certain style of approved play.
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:clap:
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Lets limit ourselfs to constructive forms of feedback. We should not expect the Developer's not to experiment with new systems. It is how the process works, when a community or server is thriving. Things change. Give some time to experience these changes, and see what comes of it. The feedback will then help the Dev Team determine what further changes may be best to help improve the role playing experience.
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Uh.. one question. If it effects the playerbase, if it is for the playerbase. If it is the playerbase who is going to be the ones enjoying/unenjoying there time with it.
Why wasn't there some sort of toll, or survery to send PM's to someone, on what all the community thinks if this dramatic change comes into play?
Unless there was and I just missed it then, I retract everything I just said.
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Let's point this thread out to the Dev team and wait. Rome wasnt built in one day.
To continue the conversation (everything but potions) -> http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=11956.0
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Speaking for myself, I don't think a poll was necessary. The process is that the Development team work together on giving shape to the module. Some ideas will work, some won't. What makes a good developer is that they're able to process the feedback we give them, towards making the changes.
Developers come up with ideas together, they then give their time to work on it, and then they implemenet it. They do take care and use forethought in the process. They also understand that some develpments will always anger a segment of the community, being that that is the nature of things within any community of diverse perspectives.
So all that we really need now is to give these changes some time to breath, then provide feedback that will help the Developers. That is the player bases' role in the process. I think many can think of a time when something in the game was changed, and before we even tried it, we made up our minds, but then eventually came to appreciate and accep thte changes. While at other times, some of the changes required more revision, or reverting back to a previous setup. That is how the cookie crumbles.
Direct some energy to finding the rp potential that can result from needing to rely more on player interaction for healing than npcs. At this point, I'm not even arguing one way or the other. All I'm saying is that give things a try, and then let the feedback, not the ranting, but the constructive feedback have it's place in the process of revision.
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Speaking for myself, I don't think a poll was necessary. The process is that the Development team work together on giving shape to the module. Some ideas will work, some won't. What makes a good developer is that they're able to process the feedback we give them, towards making the changes.
Developers come up with ideas together, they then give their time to work on it, and then they implemenet it. They do take care and use forethought in the process. They also understand that some develpments will always anger a segment of the community, being that that is the nature of things within any community of diverse perspectives.
So all that we really need now is to give these changes some time to breath, then provide feedback that will help the Developers. That is the player bases' role in the process. I think many can think of a time when something in the game was changed, and before we even tried it, we made up our minds, but then eventually came to appreciate and accep thte changes. While at other times, some of the changes required more revision, or reverting back to a previous setup. That is how the cookie crumbles.
Direct some energy to finding the rp potential that can result from needing to rely more on player interaction for healing than npcs. At this point, I'm not even arguing one way or the other. All I'm saying is that give things a try, and then let the feedback, not the ranting, but the constructive feedback have it's place in the process of revision.
FYI, my post is feedback. It's spelling out what many in the player base are saying.
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One thing I'm going to point out for reflection's sake, is that while none of my characters had yet been told or made aware of a possible shortage in healing supplies, the possible ic lack of healing supplies was given ooc focus instead of ic focus.
Now if a concentrated group effort and rp effort in game is made to provide the healing supplies, and it turns that there there isn't enough healing still, then we can look for solutions.
One idea would be to provide more ingredients for the stronger healing potions so as to make them more plentify, that is if it turns out that the current offerings are too skim.
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Clerics and other healers usually keep their slots for buffs.
You know, I've always found this to be rather contrary to the premise of a "healer" type character. :?
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Clerics and other healers usually keep their slots for buffs.
You know, I've always found this to be rather contrary to the premise of a "healer" type character. :?
Clerics don't all heal, Tempus and Sharess etc. Not as their primary function.
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Clerics and other healers usually keep their slots for buffs.
You know, I've always found this to be rather contrary to the premise of a "healer" type character. :?
Clerics don't all heal, Tempus and Sharess etc. Not as their primary function.
Clerics are intended as support characters. Their Primary Function, according to Game design, is to HEAL the Party, Followed closely by Dealing with Undead, and Providing Buff Support.
Even Clerics of Tempus and Sharess, can bring back the dead, heal the wounded and cure the sick. Now weather or not it's something their Dogma ADVOCATES, that's different, and is defined by the Domain powers. For example, in the Greyhawk Setting, Pelor, is the ONLY God, with the Healing Domain. Healing is a Forte of his Clerics. Yet, ALL clerics CAN heal, Pelors just does it BETTER.
In THIS particular environment, Clerics are not really healers. Due to the structure of the behind the scenes elements of the server, the Cleric and Mage types are the Front Line troops, so therefore, they reserve their slots for the Buffs they need to approach the one thing the Fighter and the Barbarian have going for them. AB and sometimes depending on the feats, AC. Mostly though it's all about the Buffs.
When a Cleric steps back into the support roll (As I have shown with both Bela and Volstagg to a few parties), a Party is Nigh Unstoppable. You don't end up having to chug 40 potions in an encounter, or using 23 raise dead scrolls, because the cleric is actually doing what he is structured to do. It's not that hard, when your doing it right.
~Rex
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As muich as I might also want to partake in the discussion of clerics, and the concept of a healer, lets try to keep this on topic.
As Carrion, who has been moderating the past few months (Or longer, time flies!), as Carrion Flower is busy and unable to devote much time to moderating the forum, we're making a group effort to keep the forums in good shape. :mrgreen:
So not trying to play the role of a tough guy, just asking to take a discussion of clerics to another thread. You'd think we'd have a thread on cleric concepts, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. :?
By the way, I do see how the topic of clerics is relevant and came up, but I also know that sometimes if not put back on course, the thread can get off topic and stray.
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I don't think the cleric issue is really a different topic. Having a large availability of potions has the potential consequence, as Rex points out, that the healers don't have to serve as healers. I feel this is actually the very essence of this change.
I don't believe DnD was ever balanced toward an availability of potions where you basically chug it down every other time you are hit. In my mind, the ideal balance of potions available in a DnD based system is when you have them available for the exceptional or dire situations only, not as a standard gear to work as a portable healer like in games like Diablo etc. The game simply isn't balanced toward that - and it would come to me as a bit too high fantasy too.
I've played on many servers where it was paramount to go to the hardest places to have a diverse group - brutes for the front, buffers and healers behind them and ranged in the back. Not only does it promote teaming up, but also a more tactical form of play where the healers have to be ready to back up the front, and the front might need to fall back occasionally. It makes combat more daring, more tactical, less casual. To my own experience, that has a positive immersion impact.
On the other hand, though, if the game has proven to become too hard in this way, we aren't (I think to many people's surprise, eheh) sadists. I'd rather cut some slag in the other end though, and still further the complexity of the game.
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At the moment, some of the healing potion shortage is being role played out and organized effort is starting to shape up icly to gather the herbs necessary for healing, getting into the hands of the herbalist and then the seller and buyers.
As I said, of course clerics is relevant, but I was cautioning agaisnt the thread becoming a battleground over balance and clerics compared to other classes.
With my own cleric, I love having faction members to buff, especially a fighter build. Some of the best adventuring moments I've had has been due to having Daeros at her side, and with him not using a shield and sacrificing his AC, Nell often has, including greater restores and full heals, up to six full heals. I also love that Nell can partake in the Church tradition of herbalism, along with other Wardens such as Deneve.
So I'm curious to see how the ic efforts to deal with a healing potion shortage will play out, now that efforts are being made icly to help alleviate it all.
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I don't think the cleric issue is really a different topic. Having a large availability of potions has the potential consequence, as Rex points out, that the healers don't have to serve as healers. I feel this is actually the very essence of this change.
I don't believe DnD was ever balanced toward an availability of potions where you basically chug it down every other time you are hit. In my mind, the ideal balance of potions available in a DnD based system is when you have them available for the exceptional or dire situations only, not as a standard gear to work as a portable healer like in games like Diablo etc. The game simply isn't balanced toward that - and it would come to me as a bit too high fantasy too.
I've played on many servers where it was paramount to go to the hardest places to have a diverse group - brutes for the front, buffers and healers behind them and ranged in the back. Not only does it promote teaming up, but also a more tactical form of play where the healers have to be ready to back up the front, and the front might need to fall back occasionally. It makes combat more daring, more tactical, less casual. To my own experience, that has a positive immersion impact.
On the other hand, though, if the game has proven to become too hard in this way, we aren't (I think to many people's surprise, eheh) sadists. I'd rather cut some slag in the other end though, and still further the complexity of the game.
Not all clerics are healers and not all clerics wish to be healers. I had to get rid of my Healing domain becausue it was not one of the domains of my diety. Do I get it back now?
I'm very happy that some clerics find their RP satisfaction however, wherever, and with whoever they find it and more power to them. But not all players find that same satisfaction. And it's not just the clerics. Not every fighter is a power dungeoner nor is every mage a fireball throwing powerhouse. To me, class was a first step and not a way to box onesself in as to destiny. I would bet more than a few among the playerbase feel that way.
Are we moving towards the idea that class is destiny and the door is shown to those who don't wish to follow that predetermined destiny? Is this the direction things are moving in? Is Sam Wraith going to be told "you're a healer and not member of the Vardo? I'm sorry, but I'm mystified here and there's plenty of that among the player base who's trying to figure what's happening. Here's the confusion: OTOH, players are encouraged to expand and RP towards that end and at the same time players are told "hey, you're a healer so heal". I'm a bit confused. Anythng to clear up the confusion would be more than appreciated.
The idea of partying is all well and good but it isn't always feasible. If anything, the European players know that best.
Btw, here's the way I see things shaping up: Removal of the healing potions from the stores will NOT have the desired effect of furthering RP except in the most limited of circumstances and only with a few players. Potions and the control of potions will concentrate that power in the hands of a few to the detriment of new players. That's how it works in RL and we're all products of our RL.
Certainly the PtB have every right to steer their server in whatever direction they wish. But there's also the law of unintended consequences and what really looks good on paper does not turn out to have the desired effect. Predetermining destiny based on class and creating the potential for monopolies do not generally create a dynamic world.
It seems to me that the supposed expansion of a craft such as herbalism was in reality a method of social engineering to a specific path and not an expansion at all. But, since the PtB own this server, they're certainly entitled to socially engineer chars/players/classes/etc to their vision. Rock on. :D
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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I don't think the cleric issue is really a different topic. Having a large availability of potions has the potential consequence, as Rex points out, that the healers don't have to serve as healers. I feel this is actually the very essence of this change.
I don't believe DnD was ever balanced toward an availability of potions where you basically chug it down every other time you are hit. In my mind, the ideal balance of potions available in a DnD based system is when you have them available for the exceptional or dire situations only, not as a standard gear to work as a portable healer like in games like Diablo etc. The game simply isn't balanced toward that - and it would come to me as a bit too high fantasy too.
I've played on many servers where it was paramount to go to the hardest places to have a diverse group - brutes for the front, buffers and healers behind them and ranged in the back. Not only does it promote teaming up, but also a more tactical form of play where the healers have to be ready to back up the front, and the front might need to fall back occasionally. It makes combat more daring, more tactical, less casual. To my own experience, that has a positive immersion impact.
On the other hand, though, if the game has proven to become too hard in this way, we aren't (I think to many people's surprise, eheh) sadists. I'd rather cut some slag in the other end though, and still further the complexity of the game.
Not all clerics are healers and not all clerics wish to be healers. I had to get rid of my Healing domain becausue it was not one of the domains of my diety. Do I get it back now?
I'm very happy that some clerics find their RP satisfaction however, wherever, and with whoever they find it and more power to them. But not all players find that same satisfaction. And it's not just the clerics. Not every fighter is a power dungeoner nor is every mage a fireball throwing powerhouse. To me, class was a first step and not a way to box onesself in as to destiny. I would bet more than a few among the playerbase feel that way.
Are we moving towards the idea that class is destiny and the door is shown to those who don't wish to follow that predetermined destiny? Is this the direction things are moving in? Is Sam Wraith going to be told "you're a healer and not member of the Vardo? I'm sorry, but I'm mystified here and there's plenty of that among the player base who's trying to figure what's happening. Here's the confusion: OTOH, players are encouraged to expand and RP towards that end and at the same time players are told "hey, you're a healer so heal". I'm a bit confused. Anythng to clear up the confusion would be more than appreciated.
The idea of partying is all well and good but it isn't always feasible. If anything, the European players know that best.
Btw, here's the way I see things shaping up: Removal of the healing potions from the stores will NOT have the desired effect of furthering RP except in the most limited of circumstances and only with a few players. Potions and the control of potions will concentrate that power in the hands of a few to the detriment of new players. That's how it works in RL and we're all products of our RL.
Certainly the PtB have every right to steer their server in whatever direction they wish. But there's also the law of unintended consequences and what really looks good on paper does not turn out to have the desired effect. Predetermining destiny based on class and creating the potential for monopolies do not generally create a dynamic world.
It seems to me that the supposed expansion of a craft such as herbalism was in reality a method of social engineering to a specific path and not an expansion at all. But, since the PtB own this server, they're certainly entitled to socially engineer chars/players/classes/etc to their vision. Rock on. :D
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
No, I think they're saying that in general, cleric is supposed to be a support class, but it seems like no cleric plays that role. Not that every cleric should, but it doesn't seem like any do. They're all "battle priests".
Clerics can be powerful, but Rex is right, when a cleric is supporting, the party is unstoppable.
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From the 3.0 player's handbook:
"Good clerics heal, protect, and avenge. Evil clerics pillage, destroy, and sabotage. A cleric uses the bower of his god to make his god's will manifest. And if a cleric uses his god's power, that's to be expected too.
Clerics are masters of divine magic. Divine magic is especially good at healing."
And that's it. Never does it say, in the entire entry, that clerics are meant solely for support and healing. Yes. They do heal. But not all of them choose to because it may not be the will of thair god. If it was an Ilmateri, then yes there's no reason for them to be a battle cleric. But for more militaristic gods, like Torm or Tyr? You bet those would be battle-clerics.
Anywho back on topic.. So far as I know, the potions are coming from two groups.. Denalie, and the Vardo. What if they aren't around? n00bs, which I think are the most hard-hit by this, will be SOL. I mean, think, if you were a brand new player, would you want to play on a server where you can't even survive the rats or crypts because you have no healing?
Depending on players is a good thing in theory.. But as I said, not all those people can be around all the time.
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I don't think the cleric issue is really a different topic. Having a large availability of potions has the potential consequence, as Rex points out, that the healers don't have to serve as healers. I feel this is actually the very essence of this change.
I don't believe DnD was ever balanced toward an availability of potions where you basically chug it down every other time you are hit. In my mind, the ideal balance of potions available in a DnD based system is when you have them available for the exceptional or dire situations only, not as a standard gear to work as a portable healer like in games like Diablo etc. The game simply isn't balanced toward that - and it would come to me as a bit too high fantasy too.
I've played on many servers where it was paramount to go to the hardest places to have a diverse group - brutes for the front, buffers and healers behind them and ranged in the back. Not only does it promote teaming up, but also a more tactical form of play where the healers have to be ready to back up the front, and the front might need to fall back occasionally. It makes combat more daring, more tactical, less casual. To my own experience, that has a positive immersion impact.
On the other hand, though, if the game has proven to become too hard in this way, we aren't (I think to many people's surprise, eheh) sadists. I'd rather cut some slag in the other end though, and still further the complexity of the game.
Not all clerics are healers and not all clerics wish to be healers. I had to get rid of my Healing domain becausue it was not one of the domains of my diety. Do I get it back now?
I'm very happy that some clerics find their RP satisfaction however, wherever, and with whoever they find it and more power to them. But not all players find that same satisfaction. And it's not just the clerics. Not every fighter is a power dungeoner nor is every mage a fireball throwing powerhouse. To me, class was a first step and not a way to box onesself in as to destiny. I would bet more than a few among the playerbase feel that way.
Are we moving towards the idea that class is destiny and the door is shown to those who don't wish to follow that predetermined destiny? Is this the direction things are moving in? Is Sam Wraith going to be told "you're a healer and not member of the Vardo? I'm sorry, but I'm mystified here and there's plenty of that among the player base who's trying to figure what's happening. Here's the confusion: OTOH, players are encouraged to expand and RP towards that end and at the same time players are told "hey, you're a healer so heal". I'm a bit confused. Anythng to clear up the confusion would be more than appreciated.
The idea of partying is all well and good but it isn't always feasible. If anything, the European players know that best.
Btw, here's the way I see things shaping up: Removal of the healing potions from the stores will NOT have the desired effect of furthering RP except in the most limited of circumstances and only with a few players. Potions and the control of potions will concentrate that power in the hands of a few to the detriment of new players. That's how it works in RL and we're all products of our RL.
Certainly the PtB have every right to steer their server in whatever direction they wish. But there's also the law of unintended consequences and what really looks good on paper does not turn out to have the desired effect. Predetermining destiny based on class and creating the potential for monopolies do not generally create a dynamic world.
It seems to me that the supposed expansion of a craft such as herbalism was in reality a method of social engineering to a specific path and not an expansion at all. But, since the PtB own this server, they're certainly entitled to socially engineer chars/players/classes/etc to their vision. Rock on. :D
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
No, I think they're saying that in general, cleric is supposed to be a support class, but it seems like no cleric plays that role. Not that every cleric should, but it doesn't seem like any do. They're all "battle priests".
Clerics can be powerful, but Rex is right, when a cleric is supporting, the party is unstoppable.
Then I guess the cleric who chooses to play only a support role will be the most in demand. ;)
I can see it now: "Please Mr. Cleric, don't use that spell slot for Max Searing Light/Max Hammer of the Gods/Harm/etc. or any buffs for me or you. Save it for "Cure Light/Mod/Serious Wounds".
OTOH, I guess Mass Heal still falls under the job description when dealing with the undead.
I'm sorry, I'm still laughing over the woman who shot herself while trying to kill mice. :lol:
(see Tavern post)
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From the 3.0 player's handbook:
"Good clerics heal, protect, and avenge. Evil clerics pillage, destroy, and sabotage. A cleric uses the bower of his god to make his god's will manifest. And if a cleric uses his god's power, that's to be expected too.
Clerics are masters of divine magic. Divine magic is especially good at healing."
And that's it. Never does it say, in the entire entry, that clerics are meant solely for support and healing. Yes. They do heal. But not all of them choose to because it may not be the will of thair god. If it was an Ilmateri, then yes there's no reason for them to be a battle cleric. But for more militaristic gods, like Torm or Tyr? You bet those would be battle-clerics.
Funny, you say that since "heal" pops up first in their scope of work. Considering that of all the classes in PotM, that only Druids and Clerics can really heal (since Bards aren't really that good at it I think), I'd consider that they should focus on this. No one else can heal as part of their class skills, and by ignoring it you create a huge need for healing potions. And the problem is that none of the clerics I've come across ever really tries to heal anyone. D&D (regardless of edition) has always been about a party with a lock-picker, a spell slinger, a basher, and a healer.
If I remember right, you can sacrifice a spell slot to cast the basic healling spell of that level. So you can heal without even memorizing heal spells. But no one does.... ever. This isn't a comparison of clerics to other classes, this is simply a focus of what the current clerics AREN'T doing, and as a result, our over dependence on healing potions.
Anywho back on topic.. So far as I know, the potions are coming from two groups.. Denalie, and the Vardo. What if they aren't around? n00bs, which I think are the most hard-hit by this, will be SOL. I mean, think, if you were a brand new player, would you want to play on a server where you can't even survive the rats or crypts because you have no healing?
Depending on players is a good thing in theory.. But as I said, not all those people can be around all the time.
Don't forget the ML healing potions. Everyone under level 10 can benefit from those potions. I think the gypsy lady still makes potions, as do some more apparently as mentioned by EO. But if folks partied up with clerics that actually healed their party members, this issue wouldn't be such a problem.
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From the 3.0 player's handbook:
"Good clerics heal, protect, and avenge. Evil clerics pillage, destroy, and sabotage. A cleric uses the bower of his god to make his god's will manifest. And if a cleric uses his god's power, that's to be expected too.
Clerics are masters of divine magic. Divine magic is especially good at healing."
And that's it. Never does it say, in the entire entry, that clerics are meant solely for support and healing. Yes. They do heal. But not all of them choose to because it may not be the will of thair god. If it was an Ilmateri, then yes there's no reason for them to be a battle cleric. But for more militaristic gods, like Torm or Tyr? You bet those would be battle-clerics.
Funny, you say that since "heal" pops up first in their scope of work. Considering that of all the classes in PotM, that only Druids and Clerics can really heal (since Bards aren't really that good at it I think), I'd consider that they should focus on this. No one else can heal as part of their class skills, and by ignoring it you create a huge need for healing potions. And the problem is that none of the clerics I've come across ever really tries to heal anyone. D&D (regardless of edition) has always been about a party with a lock-picker, a spell slinger, a basher, and a healer.
If I remember right, you can sacrifice a spell slot to cast the basic healling spell of that level. So you can heal without even memorizing heal spells. But no one does.... ever. This isn't a comparison of clerics to other classes, this is simply a focus of what the current clerics AREN'T doing, and as a result, our over dependence on healing potions.
Anywho back on topic.. So far as I know, the potions are coming from two groups.. Denalie, and the Vardo. What if they aren't around? n00bs, which I think are the most hard-hit by this, will be SOL. I mean, think, if you were a brand new player, would you want to play on a server where you can't even survive the rats or crypts because you have no healing?
Depending on players is a good thing in theory.. But as I said, not all those people can be around all the time.
Don't forget the ML healing potions. Everyone under level 10 can benefit from those potions. I think the gypsy lady still makes potions, as do some more apparently as mentioned by EO. But if folks partied up with clerics that actually healed their party members, this issue wouldn't be such a problem.
Anyone who feels that the current clerics just don't know their place should feel free to start up a new cleric char devoted to healing and only healing. Have at it.
Funny how fast this turned into class warfare ................ again.
FYI, this cleric used the readily available potions to heal party members while simultaneously lending a hand with combat including buffing the party with GMW, Death Ward, Pro from Evil and the rest of the buffing spells required to walk into a high level dungeon. This cleric never heard any complaints nor was a buff ever refused. Hell, most of the time party members asked for those buffs. Btw, no one offered to reimburse the cleric for the cost of those Healing potions either.
Again, feel free to start up a cleric char solely devoted to healing.
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Drudoc used to do nothing BUT healling and support for the longest time then everyone was like blah blah blah fire off spell etc etc and a bunch of other stuff
meh anyhow i stil say if herbalism could make insta healing kits too thta would be great
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There is no class warfare here, nor did I say clerics should focus solely on healing. You don't need the Healing domain to heal someone. However, I can't remember the last time a cleric bothered to save a few slots for healing magic. I think Wirth heals folks with his spells more than any cleric he ever buddied up with.
I'd start up a cleric but I prefer more of a challenge in my roleplaying, and there are already waaaay too many. :?
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There is a difference between our experiences and reality. I've no doubt that in some player character's experience, they don't encounter a cleric as healer very often, while I've no doubt, based on my own experience, that in reality there are clerics as healers who do make it their cheif role to keep everyone alive. When the Ezrites go on a quest, all those in company are taken care of when it comes to healing. Although due to canon, some Anchorite/healers will only provide healing to those of their faith. :mrgreen:
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Funny, you say that since "heal" pops up first in their scope of work. Considering that of all the classes in PotM, that only Druids and Clerics can really heal (since Bards aren't really that good at it I think), I'd consider that they should focus on this. No one else can heal as part of their class skills, and by ignoring it you create a huge need for healing potions. And the problem is that none of the clerics I've come across ever really tries to heal anyone. D&D (regardless of edition) has always been about a party with a lock-picker, a spell slinger, a basher, and a healer.
As I said yes they do heal, but that isn't all they do. They do what's right by their god and dogma. They aren't necessarily meant to be just healing machines. If there are clerics of deities with an emphasis on healing not healing, feel free to smack them. Lumping all clerics into one pile isn't sensical since there are so many gods. "You're a cleric of Loviatar! WHY AREN'T YOU HEALING!?" :P
Don't forget the ML healing potions. Everyone under level 10 can benefit from those potions. I think the gypsy lady still makes potions, as do some more apparently as mentioned by EO. But if folks partied up with clerics that actually healed their party members, this issue wouldn't be such a problem.
A lowbie cleric can't always be found. Even if one could be found, it might not make RP sense to party up. Or, the cleric just might not feel like adventuring at the time. And if they have no cleric and no potions, how are they supposed to be able to kill undead and beetles? As I said depending on other players is fine in theory, but theory is a treacherous thing since it can break apart like a biscuit raft(props if you know where I got that). How about, only cure light potions are put in stores for emergencies/lowbies, but anything higher has to be purchased from herbalists?
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There is a difference between our experiences and reality. I've no doubt that in some player character's experience, they don't encounter a cleric as healer very often, while I've no doubt, based on my own experience, that in reality there are clerics as healers who do make it their cheif role to keep everyone alive. When the Ezrites go on a quest, all those in company are taken care of when it comes to healing. Although due to canon, some Anchorite/healers will only provide healing to those of their faith. :mrgreen:
agreed here with icono in my times with rping with nell deneve heck even jadin all for the times he's pushed calson away and what not never could complain with a decent sense of team work at play. though i will grant i see FAR to many 'battle priests'
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How about, only cure light potions are put in stores for emergencies/lowbies, but anything higher has to be purchased from herbalists?
agreed here why not? that way then you got CLW availbe in shops, CMW from the vistani anything else like that or stronger y ou go to an herbalist sounds good to me :)
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As I said yes they do heal, but that isn't all they do. They do what's right by their god and dogma. They aren't necessarily meant to be just healing machines. If there are clerics of deities with an emphasis on healing not healing, feel free to smack them. Lumping all clerics into one pile isn't sensical since there are so many gods. "You're a cleric of Loviatar! WHY AREN'T YOU HEALING!?" :P
I never said a cleric had to heal and only heal. But what I often see is that they never heal, as they save all their spell slots for buffs, with the oft exception being Heal. However, Heal seems to be memorized more to combat undead than to actually use on a living person. Like I said, no one else can truly heal folks, so this ability to heal is an important part of being a cleric and shouldn't be neglected. I'm not trying to tell clerics how to play their characters, but this is one of the reasons folks have to depend on magic healing so much. The Ezrites may indeed be what I'm looking for as the more classical archetype of the cleric, but somehow I can never find them with Geoffrey. :?
A lowbie cleric can't always be found. Even if one could be found, it might not make RP sense to party up. Or, the cleric just might not feel like adventuring at the time. And if they have no cleric and no potions, how are they supposed to be able to kill undead and beetles?
I have folks that almost never have heals on them. Just ask Grimshackle about adventuring with Torgan. The damned dwarf never has heals on him. Still, this doesn't stop him from adventuring. He just needs to be careful and plan on resting when he gets weak. No "easy button" to recoup hit points, a la healing pots. Beetles though, eat Drobita on the way through. I do. 8)
All this talk of magic healing though, makes me wonder if we should focus more on natural healing through the Heal skill set. Maybe some method of a minor return in hit points immediately, with more after resting? Would help keep us from focusing so much on healing potions and kits and folks may actually take ranks in Heal for more than just RP reasons.
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Maybe some method of a minor return in hit points immediately, with more after resting? Would help keep us from focusing so much on healing potions and kits and folks may actually take ranks in Heal for more than just RP reasons.
i and i know many others have said this tons of times nothing ever htough comes of it the ability to use healing kits to return say 1d4+1hp to a postive hp person or stabalize a 0-9 negative hp person would be great also with enough points in heal and lore to cure certain disesase too
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No one is forcing anyone to play their character in any way. We are just assuring the natural balance of advantages, not forcing anyone into any mold. The way you roleplay the personality is still the key defining factor of the character. I honestly feel it's a bit far fetched to say this is compromising anyone's way of roleplaying.
All we are trying to do is strengthening mutual dependencies to foster roleplay, not enforce it nor how it's done. The advantage of forming alliances has always been a driving factor for many great stories, but as always, we still leave it as your choice. On the other hand, not having to make any priorities just leaves you with indifference - and personally, I think that forming a fragile alliance, somewhat reluctant, but based on necessity, is much more interesting than no alliance at all.
Revising the healing kit might be an idea - I'll make sure we consider that... :)
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Yes, but my point is the folks who sell potions/heal aren't going to be around always. Having only CLW in stores would help with that.
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Cleric NEVER, has to actually memorize/pray, for a Healing spell. You load up on the one you think you need for your Junior Soloing Crusader special, and you quickslot a few healing spells because, funny thing for something that's "Not Just a Healer!!!!!!", Clerics all seems to have this ability to cast heal spells at will by "sacrificing" a prepared spell of equal level.
I'll HAPPILY start up a cleric thread, if I get clearance from a higher up to actually voice an opinion without having the Care-A-Lot security forces charge my house.
Zarathustra pointed out the nifty thing of a mixed party, but Here, well I'll include that in my Cleric thread.
Point of Order though. I play a fighter. No Gear, rarely more then a mix of a half dozen, maybe ten potions or so on me, all different. I have no gear to speak of, can only do maybe 2 dungeon possibly three, If they haven't been raped to death by the Farmer crowd.
Getting along actually a bit better then I was before the potion change, even if I have to duck and cover from all the people shrieking about the change, that are either Casters, or some sort of sneak. The element of that shriek seems to be that with the new system it's Harder, Yet as someone way way way way way at the bottom of the food chain do to the environments allergy to Fighter types having gear, I'm actually doing a touch BETTER, under this system, as opposed to being over shadowed by min maxed munchkins, under the old. You would think that if it's harder for Sir Castalot, Priest of Uber Power, and Poofta the Mighty evoker of all that is leet and cool, that Joe Schmuck the Fighter types, should be playing cards in the Fugue plane and looking for the next bag of Doritios to be brought in.
It plays, and I haven't even noticed this so called shortage. But then, I play according to the character sheet. Not according to some 50000 gallon potion tank I keep in my back pack.
Even in High Fantasy High Magic settings, Potions are not meant to be that available. They're supposed to be the ace in the hole, the crutch, the surprise. Not something you see 50 people sloshing about town with. I'd like to see potions show up instead of the LAME *insert list here then balance it with a set of 4 pound fans* in treasure maybe. Also a topic for another thread. To get back to this one, as the lowest of the low (a fighter) in a place designed to screw certain classes (fighters and barbarians, Rangers up to a certain level), I'm actually still not seeing either this shortage (since I have to turn away sellers all the time), or the issues associated with the new systems (think crafting is to hard, don't CRAFT).
~Rex
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Cleric NEVER, has to actually memorize/pray, for a Healing spell. You load up on the one you think you need for your Junior Soloing Crusader special, and you quickslot a few healing spells because, funny thing for something that's "Not Just a Healer!!!!!!", Clerics all seems to have this ability to cast heal spells at will by "sacrificing" a prepared spell of equal level.
I'll HAPPILY start up a cleric thread, if I get clearance from a higher up to actually voice an opinion without having the Care-A-Lot security forces charge my house.
Zarathustra pointed out the nifty thing of a mixed party, but Here, well I'll include that in my Cleric thread.
Point of Order though. I play a fighter. No Gear, rarely more then a mix of a half dozen, maybe ten potions or so on me, all different. I have no gear to speak of, can only do maybe 2 dungeon possibly three, If they haven't been raped to death by the Farmer crowd.
Getting along actually a bit better then I was before the potion change, even if I have to duck and cover from all the people shrieking about the change, that are either Casters, or some sort of sneak. The element of that shriek seems to be that with the new system it's Harder, Yet as someone way way way way way at the bottom of the food chain do to the environments allergy to Fighter types having gear, I'm actually doing a touch BETTER, under this system, as opposed to being over shadowed by min maxed munchkins, under the old. You would think that if it's harder for Sir Castalot, Priest of Uber Power, and Poofta the Mighty evoker of all that is leet and cool, that Joe Schmuck the Fighter types, should be playing cards in the Fugue plane and looking for the next bag of Doritios to be brought in.
It plays, and I haven't even noticed this so called shortage. But then, I play according to the character sheet. Not according to some 50000 gallon potion tank I keep in my back pack.
Even in High Fantasy High Magic settings, Potions are not meant to be that available. They're supposed to be the ace in the hole, the crutch, the surprise. Not something you see 50 people sloshing about town with. I'd like to see potions show up instead of the LAME *insert list here then balance it with a set of 4 pound fans* in treasure maybe. Also a topic for another thread. To get back to this one, as the lowest of the low (a fighter) in a place designed to screw certain classes (fighters and barbarians, Rangers up to a certain level), I'm actually still not seeing either this shortage (since I have to turn away sellers all the time), or the issues associated with the new systems (think crafting is to hard, don't CRAFT).
~Rex
Knock yourself out. :mrgreen:
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Yes, but my point is the folks who sell potions/heal aren't going to be around always. Having only CLW in stores would help with that.
The problem with availability in stores is that it allows for high levels to have a virtually unlimited supply, and we would be more or less back at where we started. There are currently great ways for lowbies to obtain cure light wounds potions by trading unique ingredients with NPCs. It's my experience that this works out quite well, allowing most low levels to always carry a few, though please correct if I'm wrong.
And Rex, I'm starting to worry about how much I've been agreeing with you lately... ;)
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The problem with availability in stores is that it allows for high levels to have a virtually unlimited supply,
What stops farming of said places though from high levels to get unlimited supplies anyhow? Easier for them to wipe everything out by themselves and stock up, leaving the lowbies in the dust.
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The problem with availability in stores is that it allows for high levels to have a virtually unlimited supply,
What stops farming of said places though from high levels to get unlimited supplies anyhow? Easier for them to wipe everything out by themselves and stock up, leaving the lowbies in the dust.
Nothing stops high levels except an honor system. ;)
However, as resources become scarce, I can almost guarantee players will get what they need when they need it. And it won't involve waiting until one's favorite vendor logs on.
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The problem with availability in stores is that it allows for high levels to have a virtually unlimited supply,
What stops farming of said places though from high levels to get unlimited supplies anyhow? Easier for them to wipe everything out by themselves and stock up, leaving the lowbies in the dust.
Easy. Once you get well over a hundred hit points, those ML heals are pitifully weak. Torgan won't bother to farm knuckles because getting 5-10 hps out of a potion is worthless in a truly heavy battle. Even a Cure Moderate is only mildly effective. Higher levels are going to be wanting Cure Serious/Criticals or better. Anything less is only useful between battles, and now with the ability to rest more frequently, you don't even need them.
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Also, a single place can't aggressively be visited repeatedly without it becoming empty, and as such won't provide enough healing to be relevant for high levels. :)
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Conflict is the material of good story.
When there are limited resources, the need or desire for those resoruces can be a source of conflict.
Now how a character reacts and behaves within a conflict, is what determines their moral fiber. Ravenloft is about morality, in the tradition of the Morality Plays that were put on by our ancestors, and continue today in some modern variations.
These changes could be a very good things for role playing, and for some exciting stories waiting to be acted out and enjoyed.
Take initiative, and invest your energies into more positive avenues, or not. :mrgreen:
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Haven't looked yet today, but I'm pretty sure you can still buy cure lights. That solves the low level characters problems.
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Stack up on honey, i have.
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Haven't looked yet today, but I'm pretty sure you can still buy cure lights. That solves the low level characters problems.
Where is this?
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Will send as PM
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christ's sakes dont tell him! :lol:
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The noobs can still farm vampire hearts. :lol:
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The noobs can still farm vampire hearts. :lol:
Along with the vampire fangs, that was another side quest that disappeared. It was fun, it was exciting ......... and it's gone poof. :?
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It's still there.
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It's still there.
The quest in the Mage tower that started with fangs, then hearts and so on? Admittedly it's been a while, but the last time Kane and I were there, there was an impossible quest involving a "building". That's all I'll say.
I do believe the quest that started with 10 vampire fangs in exchange for information to 10 elite vamipre hearts in exchange for more information and so on is gone.
Maybe I'm wrong.
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It's still there.
The quest in the Mage tower that started with fangs, then hearts and so on? Admittedly it's been a while, but the last time Kane and I were there, there was an impossible quest involving a "building". That's all I'll say.
I do believe the quest that started with 10 vampire fangs in exchange for information to 10 elite vamipre hearts in exchange for more information and so on is gone.
Maybe I'm wrong.
no your right the orginal way it was is gone now its got the potions quest thing which is nice i admit though for when it was as it orginally was then a group went and got all that was needed only to fnid out that 'gasp' suddenly its changed was a bit of a downer though i can understand WHY it was changed :)
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Hah, yeah, those potions are still there. At 31 coins for each cure light, though (the crappy ones that tend to give you only 3-5 hp every time) you're better off buying Bervis' honey from the beekeeper, or scavenging for skeleton knuckles down in the crypt.
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Hah, yeah, those potions are still there. At 31 coins for each cure light, though (the crappy ones that tend to give you only 3-5 hp every time) you're better off buying Bervis' honey from the beekeeper, or scavenging for skeleton knuckles down in the crypt.
uhh bad_bud the potions the tower lady gives are a restoration potion and greater restoration less it was changed recently
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Hah, yeah, those potions are still there. At 31 coins for each cure light, though (the crappy ones that tend to give you only 3-5 hp every time) you're better off buying Bervis' honey from the beekeeper, or scavenging for skeleton knuckles down in the crypt.
What's that work out to about 5 or 6 rats?
~Rex
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Hah, yeah, those potions are still there. At 31 coins for each cure light, though (the crappy ones that tend to give you only 3-5 hp every time) you're better off buying Bervis' honey from the beekeeper, or scavenging for skeleton knuckles down in the crypt.
uhh bad_bud the potions the tower lady gives are a restoration potion and greater restoration less it was changed recently
Cure light wounds. You can still buy them. 31 coinz.
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Yeah so 5 rats = one CL.
~Rex
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Hah, yeah, those potions are still there. At 31 coins for each cure light, though (the crappy ones that tend to give you only 3-5 hp every time) you're better off buying Bervis' honey from the beekeeper, or scavenging for skeleton knuckles down in the crypt.
uhh bad_bud the potions the tower lady gives are a restoration potion and greater restoration less it was changed recently
Cure light wounds. You can still buy them. 31 coinz.
If it's the same place I told Soren about, they'll be gone in the next update. Also, my characters get them for 18 fangs and under.