Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Amon-Si on July 07, 2008, 06:52:44 AM
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The current gilding system is far too difficult. Currently to gild anything with silver is effective DC 25 (base 20 and you get a -5 for any attempts until you succeed)
Considering the expense of gilding (300 fang a pop, not to mention collecting silver) I would like to see it revamped and scaled like all the other crafting systems.
Perhaps having a Base DC of 15 to start and then add the present item modifiers?
For example, +0 for a dagger all the way to +15 for a katana.
Or we could just remove the -5 for first attempts, or set the DC a little lower?
Right now a char with less than a +4 on their stat bonuses would have to expend a phenomenal amount of coin (30000 per craft level) in failures to gain enough skill levels to even have a 5% chance of success.
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In the alternative, maybe a lower DC to gild a cheaper metal weapon? Give smiths an actual use for all those copper daggers they have to make, for instance. That way they could snag a few crafting levels on silver/copper daggers before moving on to the big time.
(Of course, it could be that this is already how it works. No smiths I've asked have wanted to waste the fang on a "useless" item to find out if this is the case when the conventional wisdom is that it's DC 20 across the board... ;))
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Actually, I tried it with copper today. It doesn't work :lol:
I tried it both ways, gilding a steel weapon with copper: Improper or lacking ingredients
Gilding a copper weapon with silver: Works, but still DC 20.
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Didnt realize that much money would be invested in gilding, like Amon-Si and i were discussing last night, at this rate she has to gain a few levels off the XP gained off failures. And with the rate at which she gets silver, it's never going to happen. (I mine Murnu for silver ingots, so sue me :lol:)
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Hmm. That stinks.
More logically, it might also be possible to implement the inverse -- a lower DC to gild copper onto an iron or steel weapon. For obvious reasons that just wouldn't be in as much demand as silver, but it would give smiths a fighting chance to get those first few gilding levels, and it would also see master smiths returning to the copper quarry and mining alongside novices, which could lead either to fierce struggles over scarce resources, or mentor/apprentice RP. Either one could be fun!
(I'm honestly all for the scarcity of silver. I just think it would be less of a tease if smiths didn't have to waste a ton of time and money after going to all that trouble to get the silver.)
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As far as I know, silver, and gold especially, are the easiest metals to gild with. Copper would probably be a higher dc, not a lower one.
On the other hand, if it had +1 vs fey and elves/half-elves, instead of just fey, there would be a market for it.
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As far as I know, silver, and gold especially, are the easiest metals to gild with. Copper would probably be a higher dc, not a lower one.
On the other hand, if it had +1 vs fey and elves/half-elves, instead of just fey, there would be a market for it.
Oh sure, in reality copper is a completely different beast. I was just suggesting an idea to fit with the pre-existing internal logic of the crafting system.
I really like the idea of copper giving a bonus against elves and half-elves, but then you'll see a spate of wannabe smiths being hunted down and killed by assassins from Degannwy. I know I'd want to put down anyone who was about to spend a few months making a pile of weapons specifically designed to kill me just because they need the practice. ;)
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I say lower the dif, but if you lower the Dif, then lower it to the Stats that Silvered Weapons should have. Base damage. -1. +1 AB vs Shifters (aka counts as Material Silver for getting past DR.) Other things have been bumped to book levels in the name of fairness, and frankly, Silvered Steel of any large weapon makes mincemeat out of shifters to quickly. The Die adder needs to go.
~Rex
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I thought copper gave AB vs. Fey? Fey, as in nymphs and stuff.
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I thought copper gave AB vs. Fey? Fey, as in nymphs and stuff.
Yeah but the Fey you need it for, requires a +2. Crafting gives you a +1. Same with the Iron. +1, Where as what you are trying to hit, requires a +2. Still though it's Cold Iron that is the Magical Material that should be a "special" thing anyway.
~Rex
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I agree about silver weapons and damage, but could we keep this thread on topic please? :roll:
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Told you to PM it directly to Soren
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Silver gilding has always been a huge gold money pit. It's a very valuable craft, and the amount of money to even become average in it is rediculous (which I think is a good thing). The monetary requirements should chase off folks without the grit to grin-and-bear the costs involved.
Torgan must of spent 5-15,000 fangs per crafting level to get to where he is now. That puts him at around 100,000-200,000 fangs invested in gilding. Easily. I used to dungeon just to support his gilding. However, I never had to deal with that starting -5 thing.
As for Rex's recommendation: I only think solid silver weapons (like those found in the werewolf caves) should have the -damage on it. Gilding shouldn't effect the overall hardness of a weapon.
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Well, per the 3.5 rules, a "silver" weapon is one that has been alchemically treated/coated with silver in a process akin to gilding, rather than one made of solid silver. So logically the silver-gilded weapons are the ones the rules are talking about (and presumably a "silver" weapon like you're talking about is the same).
Still, I think the lack of a damage penalty on silver-gilded weapons the way they're implemented here is appropriate. It's such a pain for smiths to get to that point, especially now, to then yank back the advantage of earning that high smithing level is just weak. I can see that the damage bonus on a silver/steel greatsword is a bit crazy since it probably overcomes most weres' DR even without the gilding, but on the smaller weapons (rapier, shortsword) the bonus is far from overwhelming. Considering that by any reasonable standard the investment (in material, components and expended time) to produce a silver/steel weapon is far greater than what Murnu sells the equivalent silver weapon for, turning a silver/steel sword into effectively the same item (just with a silghtly lower weight) means that a smith at the pinnacle of his craft can never hope to compete and recoup his losses. The PC-based economy for weapons and armor that everyone talks about can't happen if it's based on such an economically irrational system. (See, for instance, why most people give up on leatherworking once they can cure hides.)
ETA: And no, I don't think removing the silver weapons from the random loot is the proper solution ;)
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Well, per the 3.5 rules, a "silver" weapon is one that has been alchemically treated/coated with silver in a process akin to gilding, rather than one made of solid silver. So logically the silver-gilded weapons are the ones the rules are talking about (and presumably a "silver" weapon like you're talking about is the same).
Still, I think the lack of a damage penalty on silver-gilded weapons the way they're implemented here is appropriate. It's such a pain for smiths to get to that point, especially now, to then yank back the advantage of earning that high smithing level is just weak. I can see that the damage bonus on a silver/steel greatsword is a bit crazy since it probably overcomes most weres' DR even without the gilding, but on the smaller weapons (rapier, shortsword) the bonus is far from overwhelming. Considering that by any reasonable standard the investment (in material, components and expended time) to produce a silver/steel weapon is far greater than what Murnu sells the equivalent silver weapon for, turning a silver/steel sword into effectively the same item (just with a silghtly lower weight) means that a smith at the pinnacle of his craft can never hope to compete and recoup his losses. The PC-based economy for weapons and armor that everyone talks about can't happen if it's based on such an economically irrational system. (See, for instance, why most people give up on leatherworking once they can cure hides.)
ETA: And no, I don't think removing the silver weapons from the random loot is the proper solution ;)
Replacing them with the crafted versions then would make them a lot more useful then as something you sell to Murnu. I think think combined with how dangerous it is to get silver (unless you are some munchkined out MMO machine), the difs should come down a notch. Unless silver becomes a touch easier to aquire then leave them alone otherwise EVERYONE jumps on gilding again. As it is, only the serious people tackle it.
~Rex
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Id like to be able to smelt down silver weapons and maybe get a ingot or two out of it.
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Id like to be able to smelt down silver weapons and maybe get a ingot or two out of it.
Rather smelt down Rusty Stuff and get ingots out of it. Rather used to that as a function of the crafting system another server another time. Gives a USE for Rusty garbage.
~Rex
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Silver gilding has always been a huge gold money pit. It's a very valuable craft, and the amount of money to even become average in it is ridiculous (which I think is a good thing). The monetary requirements should chase off folks without the grit to grin-and-bear the costs involved.
Torgan must of spent 5-15,000 fangs per crafting level to get to where he is now. That puts him at around 100,000-200,000 fangs invested in gilding. Easily. I used to dungeon just to support his gilding. However, I never had to deal with that starting -5 thing.
As for Rex's recommendation: I only think solid silver weapons (like those found in the werewolf caves) should have the -damage on it. Gilding shouldn't effect the overall hardness of a weapon.
Huge money pit, no question, but excessive much?
To correct my previous post. To gain a gilding level with 0% chance of success will in fact cost 60,000 fang per level.
That is 300 fang per attempt, approx 200 attempts.
300x200=60000.
Can you say... no chance?
15k a level was pretty bad, but times it by four and strip out any chance of increasing your success chance (reducing attempts and gaining more successes) with buffs and you're in dire straits.
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Rather smelt down Rusty Stuff and get ingots out of it. Rather used to that as a function of the crafting system another server another time. Gives a USE for Rusty garbage.
Now that would be neat! I imagine it would be high DC/low efficiency in order to get an ingot (thus keeping the availability down a bit), but that would be a nice option for a high-level smelter to avoid the giant ore-haul from the mines. A good work-around in keeping with the new encumbrance system. Since so much of the rusty stuff winds up at Murnu's, there could actually be people working in the Vallaki smithy for a change, too! :shock:
(All of this applies to Nef's silver suggestion too.)
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Rather smelt down Rusty Stuff and get ingots out of it. Rather used to that as a function of the crafting system another server another time. Gives a USE for Rusty garbage.
Now that would be neat! I imagine it would be high DC/low efficiency in order to get an ingot (thus keeping the availability down a bit), but that would be a nice option for a high-level smelter to avoid the giant ore-haul from the mines. A good work-around in keeping with the new encumbrance system. Since so much of the rusty stuff winds up at Murnu's, there could actually be people working in the Vallaki smithy for a change, too! :shock:
(All of this applies to Nef's silver suggestion too.)
Wouldn't it be easier? It's already pure iron, aside from the rust. Maybe you could dunk it in some CLR before you melt it down.
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Wouldn't it be easier? It's already pure iron, aside from the rust. Maybe you could dunk it in some CLR before you melt it down.
Well, it depends on how rusty it is. If we're just talking a little minor and easily removed corrosion, it probably doesn't even warrant the gear's minuses. But it doesn't take long (relatively speaking) for a RL piece of iron that's not properly cared for to rust right through. A game ingot weighs about 5 lbs, right? That means that even assuming a perfect conversion with no loss of ruined material and literally pure iron, it would take 5 rusted daggers to make a single iron ingot. And more likely we'd want to have it make a lump of ore (or be the equivalent of a lump of ore) to make steel from, so that would be more like 10 or 11 daggers. And that's for daggers and swords, which are almost all metal. Consider there are also rusted axes and polearms and the like, which have a substantial wooden component. So that's less usable material by weight. Even the high-weight rusty items (rusted tower shields? rusted chain shirts?) have a substantial non-metal component that has to be removed.
So for OOC reasons, I could see a higher DC and low efficiency for this process put in place to keep the Dvergeheim mines relevant to crafters -- you have to go there to learn to work with iron before you know the tricks to salvage it from old ruined weapons and armor, or if you want reliable large quantities of iron. It would be justifiable for IC reasons too -- it takes a lot of time and effort to separate all the still-usable scrap iron from the rust, wood, fittings and decorations, or it takes extra time and skill to remove all the dross.
Doing this for the silver weapons would/should be a bit easier compared to the regular DC for smelting silver, since tarnishing is a slower and less destructive process than rusting, and is easier to remove. And OOC, silver weapons are uncommon enough (and useful/valuable enough right out of the loot) that it's unlikely they'd completely supplant mining as a source of silver the way rusted gear might for iron.
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Huge money pit, no question, but excessive much?
To correct my previous post. To gain a gilding level with 0% chance of success will in fact cost 60,000 fang per level.
That is 300 fang per attempt, approx 200 attempts.
300x200=60000.
Can you say... no chance?
15k a level was pretty bad, but times it by four and strip out any chance of increasing your success chance (reducing attempts and gaining more successes) with buffs and you're in dire straits.
If you have a 0% chance of success, you'll never get the first level, so I must be missing something in your argument. With buffing being out the window for crafting, if your attributes don't support a reasonable level of success in gilding, you might just want to admit that its not something your PC is capable of learning. I lucked out with Torgan in smithing and gilding because he has above average traits in STR, CON, DEX, and INT, which wasn't intended at character creation because I never planned on crafting.
The only thing I see maybe at issue is the starting -5 modifier, if there is no way to get past that with something like being trained or apprenticed.
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There is a great unfairness between the players that could buff out of the wazoo and the new players that begins crafting. Now to even have a slight chance they have to go farm the hell out of the server so they'll get enough money AND perhaps high enough level to gain a few extra ability points to help themselves out.
Suggestions:
-Items (tools) to improve the bonus
-Apprenticing with NPCs or PCs
-Character creation background bonus
-Bring back the buffs
I don't see a problem with using buffs to increase your natural abilities, Roland with 20str crafts much better than XYZ with 16, if player XYZ buffs to 20str he SHOULD be able to used this new found strength to the same extend Roland is using. Those spells ARE there for that : to enhance your capacities.
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A stronger blacksmith won't necessarily make better goods than a weaker one though. Natural talent only takes you so far, and then from there experience is key. That's why buffs were removed from the equation, I believe.
But some form of true apprenticeship (I mean coded in, or tracked by the game) would be cool.
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A stronger blacksmith won't necessarily make better goods than a weaker one though.
but right now the system makes it so a stronger smith is better. Buffs or not.
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A stronger blacksmith won't necessarily make better goods than a weaker one though.
but right now the system makes it so a stronger smith is better. Buffs or not.
And that's a good thing, since now the guy that can swing a hammer all day, pump bellows, stand in the heat, haul material, and maybe after 15 hours of that, pause to drink a beer, Is going to start off with a better chance then a poindexter?
Must be a reason why the burly guys good with metal get into smithery, while the poindexters good with metal get into making jewlery, or doing the detail work.
Maybe gilding would be better served as a skill, by making it more independent of the physical stats. After all, pounding an anvil is one thing, dealing with Acid washes and platings, that takes brains and dexterity. Got the scars to prove both. :D
~Rex
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A stronger blacksmith won't necessarily make better goods than a weaker one though.
but right now the system makes it so a stronger smith is better. Buffs or not.
But only in the beginning. Like natural talent, your stat modifiers only take you so far. Remember, a master smith has 40+ levels in smithing, so the bonus's from the two stats does little compared to experience at that point, which I think is quite reasonable.
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A stronger blacksmith won't necessarily make better goods than a weaker one though.
but right now the system makes it so a stronger smith is better. Buffs or not.
But only in the beginning. Like natural talent, your stat modifiers only take you so far. Remember, a master smith has 40+ levels in smithing, so the bonus's from the two stats does little compared to experience at that point, which I think is quite reasonable.
Yeah but the Detractors want it EASY and they want it NOW.
~Rex
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"Easy Buttons" are for Staples, not crafting. :lol:
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DC for Steel Full Plate is 50. If you want to be a master smith you require 49 ranks not including stat buffs. This will take you many months OOC to achieve. Few are willing to put in the longterm effort to achieve being a master smith or fletecher/bowman.
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DC for Steel Full Plate is 50. If you want to be a master smith you require 49 ranks not including stat buffs.
Don't forget about the d20, so you can actually hit full plate once you hit level 30. Granted, the chances aren't good but its possible. I consider someone a master crafter once they've hit 40, because even masters still have some room to grow.
This will take you many months OOC to achieve. Few are willing to put in the longterm effort to achieve being a master smith or fletecher/bowman.
And maybe few should make it to that kind of level. Being a master crafter is something to be proud of and not something that should be easily earned.
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And maybe few should make it to that kind of level. Being a master crafter is something to be proud of and not something that should be easily earned.
That is exactly the reason the system is not setup to allow a person to powercraft to lvl 50 in smithing overnight. ;)
as for the 49, it will mean the crafter will never fail at crafting. 40 or 49 matters little. It's getting there that is the challenge.
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So far the old crafters with all their levels are happy of the new system, aint that precious.
What about the new crafters that CANT get a lvl, save off of failure?
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It was harder before than it is now to level in smithing. I'm sure the old crafters like Torgan and Dorin remember how much of a pain it was when you needed to make a bazillion weapons to get a single level, and that was a bazillion successes.
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So far the old crafters with all their levels are happy of the new system, ain't that precious.
What about the new crafters that CANT get a lvl, save off of failure?
Six months OOC time to get to lvl 40. The rest was gravy. Admittedly the char was a powercrafter to boot. failure meant lost resource and template with no cxp. New crafters lvl so incredibly fast in comparison that if it's hard to get started perhaps they are not meant to perform the craft. ;)
Recent changes in the market have change IC with undercutting of costs to make some coin. The old crafters set reasonable prices based upon the effort required to get to that point and recover the start up costs to become a smith/guilder.
To make one silver guilded axe having to get all of the materials will take a few hours OOC just to collect the materials. Not including risking your chars existence by having to head into the Wagner Silver Mines or into the deep recesses of Dverghiem to get coal and Iron. Add that you require an Handle and you've spent a ton of time.
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=10547.msg120261#msg120261 (http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=10547.msg120261#msg120261)
When the Red Vardo believed the prices listed above were reasonable and worked within that framework of pricing you should know there is a reason. ;)
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It was harder before than it is now to level in smithing. I'm sure the old crafters like Torgan and Dorin remember how much of a pain it was when you needed to make a bazillion weapons to get a single level, and that was a bazillion successes.
Add Yoshinaka, Daev (and Karine) and a dwarf named Toli to the list. All became master crafters in the old system which was 10 times harder to level each lvl. Feel like making 500 daggers? There is your first level in smithing. Wash and repeat.
Crafting is a challenge specifically for the reason that if it wasn't then everyone would be doing it. Right now it seems Herbalism is to simple since everyone is a herbalist.
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None of the above plays on a regular basic, i cant find anyone online at any hours to gild anything. That shows how right now the system is poor for new crafters. Everyone i've talked to told me they gave up since they cant get enough silver and dont feel like farming 60k to gain ONE level off failures.
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Costs. Copper smithing sell at 1 fang per item to merchant to recover costs.
~500 Dagger templates @ 5 fang a piece. - 2500
2 lvls - 5000
~300 Shortword templates @ 7 fang a piece - 2100
2 lvls - 4200
~100 Chain Shirts - 25 a piece 2500
2 lvls - 5000
~80 Chain Mail - 30 a piece -2400
2 lvls - 4800
25 banded - 80 a piece 2000
2 lvls - 4000
10 lvls in smithing costing 23,000 all sunk costs since you still cannot make anything which a PC will pay for.
Bronze, repeat costs above.
Iron you can start to make some steel items with a DC of 25 to recover costs and sell to PC's.
By the time you can make most steel items you have sunk far more then the mystical 60k you are referring to. It's closer to 150k. If you turn around and sell an item which costs 350 fang to make at 700 when it costs 60k - 150k in start up costs how long will it take to recover your costs?
Think in terms of business and start pricing goods according to supply and demand. Since no supply demand is high. Ask for 5k for a silver guilded longsword. Someone will pay it if the demand is great enough. If supply is to readily available many selling and cutting costs to underbid others just to make a sale at 700 fang I'm far from surprised the guilder gave up and closed shop. The market forces were at work. One less crafter prices can go up.
From what I see, the cost is of start up is far from the issue. It's the expectation of the market set by some middlemen merchants whom are not following the rules of business. Recover your start up costs, price to manufacture, time, effort and cost of skill to make and set a price higher and if need be offer a slight discount if someone is hedging. If anything the prices listed in the post from Dorin are to low given the benefit of steel and silver guilded steel weapons.
The reason the lady in blue was created is b/c their were crafters whom could not get ahead because the master crafters cornered the market. Now the master crafters are no longer around and start up costs are to great when in comparison to smithing they are roughly equal. The master crafters had reasonable costs set and agreed to so that supply and demand would work reasonably well. IMHO if anything with the prices they charged, they were to low.
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I'm sorry, but this thread was meant for gilding only, I didn't really want to get into the nitty gritty of the -entire- smithing system. The purpose of this thread was to indicate that, currently, guilding difficulty is (In my opinion) out of sync with the other crafting systems.
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The thing is we Vardo took the pricing of the old Master Crafters you are pointing to, specially Dorin, who is the one who you linked to. I know this is because originally I am the one who made our prices as I didn't want to undercut the other crafters
And yes I know I have had it easy compared to most crafters being a lvl 15 War cleric with more ability buffs than most have access to. The fact is the buffs are only good to tip the balance in your favour, at my current level it was only usefull to guarantee finishing a Full Plate so as not to lose a template, and to guarantee gilding.
What really helped was the fact Escher had a 6 digit bank account to help me get started
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...man this is like arguing with a wall. The price i charge people for thing isnt the problem, the problem is that it makes no sens to gain experience off of XYZ amount of failure. Without someone online to DO the gilding that already can, NOBODY new is learning it because it makes no sense to do so.
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...man this is like arguing with a wall. The price i charge people for thing isnt the problem, the problem is that it makes no sens to gain experience off of XYZ amount of failure. Without someone online to DO the gilding that already can, NOBODY new is learning it because it makes no sense to do so.
Then the reward in selling goods to others is not seen as worth it. Guilding for any item is a straight 20 DC. Dagger, Two Handed Sword, Great Axe, Mace. Makes no difference. The system IMHO is set up to show the challenge it takes to get started. After a character has his first success he's laughing all the way to the bank. 60k will mean nothing if he's charging a reasonable price for the item. But if the middleman is pricing the goods at such a ridiculously low price so as to make the investment unworthy of time. 60k selling 24 items at 2500 is a quick return on investment. 60k selling 85 items at 700 a piece is a fools task given the number of players on the server. So, I ask once the initial investment is completed and they can mint money, should the start up costs be lower?
I think not.
I'm sorry, but this thread was meant for gilding only, I didn't really want to get into the nitty gritty of the -entire- smithing system. The purpose of this thread was to indicate that, currently, guilding difficulty is (In my opinion) out of sync with the other crafting systems.
Smithing and guilding are closely linked. Since a guilder cannot do so unless they have 30 ranks in smithing. It IMHO is not out of sink given the smithing system to master is 2.5 times the levels. There is significantly more challenge to start in guilding but once you do level it becomes humorously easier to lvl up and you can laugh all the way to the bank.
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Okay, let's look at it another way. Here are a bunch of different factors that go into a smith making his/her first silver-gilded steel weapon:
availability of iron ore
availability of silver ore
stats
gilding roll
time and opportunity cost
That's quite a lot right there that has to work in balance. Two months ago the way things worked was such that a new gilder stood a decent chance of doing well in the craft if he or she had already put in the time to become a smith. It still wasn't attractive enough that everyone and his brother became a gilder, though. The problem is, the rapid changes that have been made in the past two months have each had a negative impact on gilding. The change in encumbrance (even the revised version) has effectively reduced the amount of iron and silver ore available, since it has reduced the amount that a smith can haul back to the nearest forge. Removing the effect from stat buffs effectively drops every prospective gilder's abilities by two points or so. The addition of the -5 penalty effectively raises the DC of the gilding roll out of the "I can just get lucky" range. Each of these things is a great idea (or not, depending on who you ask) on its own, but they have a cumulative effect. Especially on an apex craft like gilding, which requires two additional crafting skills plus an agonizingly slow resource haul even to attempt -- in that case it's more like multiplicative. (The three other factors I could think of, availability of coal, cost of weapon pattern, and cost of mercury haven't changed that I'm aware of.)
And ultimately it comes down to time. Each of these changes has made smelting take longer to master. When smelting takes longer to master, smithing takes longer still. When smithing takes longer, then so does gilding. The gold cost isn't (in my mind) the main complaint. It's just the odometer that tells you how much time you're spending. It also sends up a flare about the opportunity cost, since each coin you flush down the gilding basin is 1) one that you could've spent elsewhere, 2) one that you could be out re-earning through a dungeon run or three, and 3) a reminder that while you're working on the craft you probably aren't getting much RP in. Mastering a craft is a major sacrifice of scarce free time.
Frankly, I don't think silver gilding should be cheaper or easier than it was. It would be silly if it were possible to flood the market with enough silver-gilded daggers new characters could consistently buy one along with their worn winter cloak from Petre. But it's also silly to act as if these changes had no major negative effects. What had been a craft that was very challenging to become good at has now become a craft that is absurdly uneconomical and impractical to get into at all. A functional PC-driven economy requires competition, not virtual market protection for the few who've already mastered the craft.
That's why upthread I suggested having some gilding variations. My favorite example is copper onto iron, to create a light-weight version of the standard copper weapon. Not something game-changing by any stretch, but an interesting practice item. Right now gilding is (almost*) the only craft that doesn't require you to grind through RL days of making useless items before you even stand a chance of making the good stuff. Irritating as that process is, it's the model the other crafts are built on to make you earn your crafting levels. Gilding doesn't give that opportunity at all, and it suffers for it.
* Herbalism on the other hand gives you useful stuff right away, and is overall almost too easy. I still maintain that the DCs of all the recipes except the cure n wounds potions should be 5 higher, considering how powerful they are. But that's a topic for another thread.
Edited: Me fail English? That's unpossible.
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None of the above plays on a regular basic, i cant find anyone online at any hours to gild anything. That shows how right now the system is poor for new crafters. Everyone i've talked to told me they gave up since they cant get enough silver and dont feel like farming 60k to gain ONE level off failures.
I've been a bit absent in game recently, I do admit, but if you need something crafted/gilded, send me a PM and I'll try and meet up in game to handle your (or any others) requests.
As far as smelting taking longer, because of the new encumberance rules, smelting always leveled far faster than smithing anyways... And don't forget to hire some PC pack mules. Those big burly guys can be useful in more ways than just swinging a heavy instrument of carnage.
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None of the above plays on a regular basic, i cant find anyone online at any hours to gild anything. That shows how right now the system is poor for new crafters. Everyone i've talked to told me they gave up since they cant get enough silver and dont feel like farming 60k to gain ONE level off failures.
I've been a bit absent in game recently, I do admit, but if you need something crafted/gilded, send me a PM and I'll try and meet up in game to handle your (or any others) requests.
As far as smelting taking longer, because of the new encumberance rules, smelting always leveled far faster than smithing anyways... And don't forget to hire some PC pack mules. Those big burly guys can be useful in more ways than just swinging a heavy instrument of carnage.
Now is as good a time as any: did you get my armor order? :mrgreen:
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the dc and the silver is mainly the problem costs can be compensated in more ways then 1.
as for iron you need to be lvl 7 to go into the mines (mostly) and a higher lvl if you want to beat certain spawns, means your a higher lvl higher lvls can pack more stuff and go on loot trips now and then, thats one way to compensate beside selling.
but yes the dc could be lowered for gilding or take the -5 out for it. makes no sense to simply make a char with stats so he can just gild
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Right now, gilding is DC 20 for everything. Maybe if instead it was changed to DC 15, plus the weapon modifier, similar to how smithing works, it may be easier to at least start gilding.
Still, gilding should never be easy, and maybe you should have to make a character with certain stats to be a gilder. After all, some classes require the same thing, so why not.
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IS it really that needed. Seriously all it gives you is a +1 vs shape shifters. Once enchanting kicks in, I see guilding vanishing from the interests of most of the gilders.
~Rex
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Hard to say. Given how challenging Silver gilding is, will enchanting be harder? Only Soren knows.
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Hard to say. Given how challenging Silver gilding is, will enchanting be harder? Only Soren knows.
I have nightmares of Enchanting being as easy as Herbalisim, and a server over run with elemental damage having weaponry in about a week.
~Rex
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Rex, you say that like it's a bad thing. :lol:
(Just kidding. That could be a pretty bad thing.)
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aslong i have an axe for every elemental dmg type befor they up it im good :mrgreen: hell go ahead call me cheezy but good gear makes a better melee character.
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My point is, that in a low magic setting every magic item should be a named item of consequence. Not just Genericus Sword 23 Flame damage adder +2 churned out by the dozen since it's a speed bump to Not so Genericus Sword Flame Damage Add +1d6.
Much like how POTIONS, aren't supposed to be this Fish Tank of Uberness even in a high Magic setting.
As for a revamp of Gilding idea, I've got a Giant post for another thread, maybe tomorrow if I make it back from work with my car having fits as it is.
~Rex
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IS it really that needed. Seriously all it gives you is a +1 vs shape shifters. Once enchanting kicks in, I see guilding vanishing from the interests of most of the gilders.
~Rex
Given I will have NO chance of enchanting, it will become the poor mans (pfft 2k is poor?) weapon of choice and its lustre will fade.
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IS it really that needed. Seriously all it gives you is a +1 vs shape shifters. Once enchanting kicks in, I see guilding vanishing from the interests of most of the gilders.
~Rex
Given I will have NO chance of enchanting, it will become the poor mans (pfft 2k is poor?) weapon of choice and its lustre will fade.
Wait till you see my proposal Helaman. Provided Yoshi isn't stuck behind a sarcophagus somewhere,
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I've watched this thread with interest, though I've let Koopa do most of the crusading on it for me. My main PC, Corvin, is a good enough Smith to tinker at Gilding. He's currently at level 2 as a gilder. Might be 3, I've forgotten. My purposes getting into the entire crafting aspect of smithing / gilding was mostly to be able to rearm my own own PC, in the likely chance he gets his shiny steel & silver sword disarmed or taken on death by, OH, I don't know, say, NEGNAR. :D (Seriously, a werewolf dashing up and disarming and running away really cracked me up, I loved it)
From my perspective, silver gilding should be plenty damn hard. And it is. I don't much mind that my PC can't advance easily at it. Corvin was originally a farmer, he may have become good at slinging a hammer, but he's really not that smart. Mastering the process of acid etching and gilding silver should be pretty much beyond him. I can still turn around and hammer out some nice weapons and armor.
That said, I would try to master gilding more, at least to the point of being able to rearm myself with about a decent success rate. The cost doesn't phase me, the process of selling silver weapons off would provide money for it, and its not terribly hard to get hold of fang anyway. But the silver! The idea of making that many trips to the Wagner Silver Mine, or even down below Dvergeheim... I'd rather just not master it, and instead just spend more time RPing, goofing around, and being target practice for various evil-doers. Hours of ore-carting just doesn't appeal to me. (not even considering the encumbrance problem of ore these days... I really want to contract a druid to turn into a pack-bear for ore carting)
Oh, here's a thing, mildly unrelated, that I thought would be nice. Gilding armor, with say, silver or gold, to produce something like "Silver-etched Steel Plate" or "Gold-etched Steel Plate" Even platinum, though I'm not sure of the viability of the metal for such a process. Toss on a minor influence bonus or some such on the armor. Or something like that. Just an idea.
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I'm willing to wager you got your first lvl using buffs and not with a 1000 failures, that is the only issue I have with guilding.
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I'm willing to wager you got your first lvl using buffs and not with a 1000 failures, that is the only issue I have with guilding.
Not everyone, achieved their 1st level with Buffs.
~Rex
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Anyone that got to get levels in it without the -5 penalty don't count, in the unbuffed category. Wilhelm can gild now, and needs a 20 to get a success for the first one. Under the old system, without the -5 and buff, he would have needed an 11 for the first try, and a 10 after that. Having stats suited to it, and dropping from a 50% chance to a 5% chance really only protects the market for the players that can already do it. Yoshinaka could most likely never gotten a success under this system, and my guess is most of the smiths doing it now couldn't either.
It would be nice if a Dev could comment on the original proposal, where the DC would be scaled to the item crafting DC.
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I just did some math with Dorin last night. I have +4 from stats so I need 1 lvl to hit the 25-5=20. At a cost of some 260 fang a try and at 1 xp a failure that is 260,000 fang for on lvl of guilding. After that I need to hit my 20 and I will have a 5% chance each attempt. How many players can afford 260k . Guilding has become something only people with very sprecialised stats (min/max) or people that spend wayyyyy tooo much time killing rats can possibly acomplish. Why make such an excellent crafting system and then do so much to discourage people from doing it ?
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I just did some math with Dorin last night. I have +4 from stats so I need 1 lvl to hit the 25-5=20. At a cost of some 260 fang a try and at 1 xp a failure that is 260,000 fang for on lvl of guilding. After that I need to hit my 20 and I will have a 5% chance each attempt. How many players can afford 260k . Guilding has become something only people with very sprecialised stats (min/max) or people that spend wayyyyy tooo much time killing rats can possibly acomplish. Why make such an excellent crafting system and then do so much to discourage people from doing it ?
You get to level one off your first failure. Wilhelm has 3 from int, and one from con, so +4 base, and +1 for gild 1. The 20 will get rid of the -5, and then he only needs a 15 to succeed. Even at that, law of averages and all, that's still 20 attempt, and it cost him a little over 300 for the materials. 6k isn't bad, but for the people that are master smiths, but have +3 or less, they won't bother even trying.
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Ohh, well that isnt so bad at all, my mistake. thank god, that seemed insane, instead its just me :P
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though I still pity anyone who does not get at least a +4 from stats.
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Thats me! Corvin doesn't have the stats to support gilding, but he's a master smith. And like Failed.Bard said, I'm just not going to try at the gilding with those chances.
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Let's face it, not everyone can master EVERY trade. Jack of all Trades master of none.
~Rex
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Actually, if the character was a jack of all trades, they could master all of them.
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Yeah, Rex' response is right. Our system is designed and built around the ability modifiers for a reason. Characters aren't supposed to be masters at everything. If you have a high wis/con character, then herbalism may be for you, but if you're more str/con, then it's smithing, etc.
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but now a char good at smiting is potentially horrible at gilding, and since you cant gild without smiting, it's a weird situation. I still think the system needs something else to add to it.
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but now a char good at smiting is potentially horrible at gilding, and since you cant gild without smiting, it's a weird situation. I still think the system needs something else to add to it.
Nonsense, Torgan's modifiers for smelting are +7, smithing +5, gilding +5.
Edit: Honestly, the only folks that will have trouble getting reasonable modifiers in the necessary stats are ones that do some ridiculous character creations with 20's in prime skills and leave the rest at 10 or less. I have one ten, one 8 (Charisma), but all Torgan's other stats are nice and healthy. He's pretty well-rounded, and while that means he's not flexing 20+ muscles, he's capable of learning most of the crafts.
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but now a char good at smiting is potentially horrible at gilding, and since you cant gild without smiting, it's a weird situation. I still think the system needs something else to add to it.
Might have an answer for that..........may post it saturday when I'm done with these plans.
~Rex
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I just did some math with Dorin last night. I have +4 from stats so I need 1 lvl to hit the 25-5=20. At a cost of some 260 fang a try and at 1 xp a failure that is 260,000 fang for on lvl of guilding. After that I need to hit my 20 and I will have a 5% chance each attempt. How many players can afford 260k . Guilding has become something only people with very sprecialised stats (min/max) or people that spend wayyyyy tooo much time killing rats can possibly acomplish. Why make such an excellent crafting system and then do so much to discourage people from doing it ?
Not much to compare, but the sentiments are sounding eerily like those expressed about herbalism. Why create it if the next big push is to discourage folks from using it by making it more expensive and difficult? Why waste the time?
This boggles my mind. Why bother?
I'll answer my own question as to why this happens constantly: There are people in this world who truly believe the only path to growth is through suffering, adversity, defeat, and the godlike ability to persevere. Baloney. More often than not, you end up with bupkis. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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I am not for revamping the system. I like the idea of craft skills being hard to master. For the right build, guilding can be mastered in a short time.
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This boggles my mind. Why bother?
I'll answer my own question as to why this happens constantly: There are people in this world who truly believe the only path to growth is through suffering, adversity, defeat, and the godlike ability to persevere. Baloney. More often than not, you end up with bupkis. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Your opinion is fine and no one is trying to force anything else upon you - but I'm sure you're aware that this doesn't make it universally true. The fact that many do bother confirms that atleast some seems to enjoy the challenge and find it rewarding in the end.
Also keep in mind that taking active part in the crafting is entirely optional - you can always just trade with the crafters to get a part of the produce it offers. It's intended as an option for those that like the challenge it pose, not something forced upon the entire experience. As such the system can only be labelled as flawed if it turns out to be too troublesome or hard for anyone to bother. Right now, it seems there's plenty of people who find it suiting (despite still needing a lot of balancing).
As for the gilding, it is the intension that there'll be more alternative ways of specializing within the smithing trade, and other directions will be more suited to other types of characters.
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There is no new gilder being created at this time. None. The only characters able to gild were the ones created when buffs could be used and they would find themselves hard press to do the same again without the buffs. No one is willing to put that much effort into it because it feels 1- unrewarding 2- it's an incentive to farm money/levels 3- would rather be rping than wasting time in a mine about to fall down on their head
Did i say there is no new gilder being created at this time? There's none.
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Only because Wilhelm is too poor to gild right now. If someone wants to give him a bag of silver to go with the four ingots he has, and another bag of gold for the other parts, I'll do all the gilding I can for people.
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there is no new gilder being created at this time?
Who says that everyone needs to be a guilder? Who says that everyone should have availability to a weapon which is better then a base weapon? It's lighter and does more damage, and when gilded affects lycanthropes. As a matter of balance, these weapons should not be easy to get or afford.
The only characters able to gild were the ones created when buffs could be used and they would find themselves hard press to do the same again without the buffs.
That's your opinion. Can you say they wouldn't have gone through the effort without the buffs? They became master smiths with 40+ ranks in smithing. They took the time to get there. Why would they find it unrewardng when they had already found the smithing system as is rewarding enough to put 6 months of time in to get that much experience? It would simply be a new system to strive to master. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes, such as olympic athletes. Others do not. Not everyone has what it takes, nor should they.
You get to level one off your first failure. Wilhelm has 3 from int, and one from con, so +4 base, and +1 for gild 1. The 20 will get rid of the -5, and then he only needs a 15 to succeed. Even at that, law of averages and all, that's still 20 attempt, and it cost him a little over 300 for the materials. 6k isn't bad, but for the people that are master smiths, but have +3 or less, they won't bother even trying.
If an auto fail means a person gets their first rank in the craft then all they require is +3 in stats to have a 5% chance to succeed. 1 for the d20, 1 for the 1st rank, and +3 in stats = success on a 20. I've seen people win fights with monsters with those odds. Some people just get lucky. Also since the DC stays at 20 without changing for any items, the system will always get easier.
Why bother?
Isn't personal choice a wonderful thing? I say that if people do not believe there is enough reward in doing it, then don't do it and quit complaining. Others have worked through a more costly and harder crafting system. One with no reward for failure and less CXP per item crafted. If you find it unrewarding I ask you why are you doing it then? Crafting is not for everyone and personal choice allows you to not do it.
Think of this. How many smiths would support a small town? Two, maybe three depending on the size of the town. For our server how many smiths are there? How many gilders are there? What is the population of players and how frequently do they require new steel or gilded weapons? Weapons never break down so unless they get swarmed by oozes, the item is lost in PVP, or a DM takes them in an event where the item is destroyed. It's extremely rare occurrence.
I am not for revamping the system. I like the idea of craft skills being hard to master. For the right build, guilding can be mastered in a short time.
:thumbup:
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I wonder why you are so hard press in saying no to any kind of middle ground. People are obviously having an issue and telling them to deal with it has never made anyone happy, never.
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I wonder why you are so hard press in saying no to any kind of middle ground. People are obviously having an issue and telling them to deal with it has never made anyone happy, never.
For the record I do speak from experience as do Badbelly and Ethinos. We have been there and done it, and since you have decided to speak to me specifically, I would ask have you? To answer, your PC's aren't smiths nor are they gilder's. You speak from a point of second hand on behalf of a group of people whom are experiencing challenges with the system. I appreciate the challenges they are facing. I have been there and done it. It's a challenge. But it is not insurmountable.
I and others whom have worked through the system believe crafting should not be easy, it's not for everyone, nor should it be. People do not need to become masters overnight for this would cause imbalance. You state your opinion of doom and gloom for some illustrious "people" for the craft while I state one of moderation and the possible for other "people". Glass half empty vs half full.
Is the system perfect? No. Is the system impossible as you make it out to be? No. Is it a challenge as it would be in real life. Yes. Do some people enjoy working against the challenge. Yes.
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compensation doesnt kill anyone. i side with nef, she might not be a crafter, but you need to be a high lvl to gild (to get proper stats) nobody makes just a char for crafting and gilding as youl run out of cash and materials must be harvested, and you cannot harvest without proper lvls to beat the spawns.
i agree it shouldnt be easy, but compansating a bit wouldnt hurt anyone iether.
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Here's the problem in a nutshell: What happens when that gilder or bowmaker or weaponsmith goes on hiatus as has happened numerous times? What happens then?
No one is saying go to extremes. What people are saying is they want a middle ground. Sorry, but I don't see the problem with that.
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actually Shadowspawn, Nef has tried smithing, Roland was at it when Samuel started
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But where is the middle ground? Some want the game even more hardcore, some even less. Who's to say we aren't at middle ground already? I hear a few people speaking as if it was behalf of the majority of the server - but doing a quick count, I hear as many, if not more, saying it's not an issue. It doesn't really make me worry that it's us lacking the perspective. The system is still in development, but I don't feel there's any reason to panic over balance just yet.
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This isn't panic ........... this is conversation. Italian-Americans understand that instinctively. ;)
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Roland is lvl 22 smith, i know what im talking about. Roland will never be able to gild, ever. I laugh at the mere thought.
Im against people making power build just so they can choose a craft, not saying anyone did but that's what the new system aims for. Mix maxing their stats so they'll have a slightly better chance at being a crafter without wasting hours clicking on the damn anvil, im sorry yes it's boring and no i dont HAVE to do it, but i do want to do it and i dont think it needs to be as tedious as it is, we're supposed to enjoy this game, right? I think the system needs something to add on to it.
We suggested in game training either by PC or NPC, which could give the new crafter some type of bonus, or to adapt the backgrounds so the PC will start off with a beginner's bonus due to their background. What's wrong with those suggestions?
FYI the majority of people saying "it's fine" already have their levels, so their opinion is somewhat biased. From experience, there is no new gilder around, none. All the smith PCs gave up a while ago.
This isnt panic Soren, this is feedback.
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Saying that there's no reason to bother gilding, that it's impossible to do and there's no one doing it is very close to inciting to panic...
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Saying that there's no reason to bother gilding, that it's impossible to do and there's no one doing it is very close to inciting to panic...
Lock the thread, you have the yay, you have the nhay. All we're doing atm is arguying the same points over and over again. The ball is in your camp.
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Regarding providing the funds that a character might need to pursue gilding, that could be some fun. The Church of Ezra for example if approached or if they see someone who they deem to be an honest worker, someone they would like to see succeed, the might want to invest in that person's career, help pay for their training in the craft.
Real churches do that. The principal at the Catholic High School I worked for in Samoa, had her entire college, both undergraduate and her master's program, paid in full. That involved flying her across the Pacific to the West Coast in the U.S., and that isn't a cheap ride when you add it all up for tuition, airfair over the years, and living costs.
Nell, if a laymen of the Church was known to desire to become educated in a trade, she would work towards offering that character church grants. There might be some strings attached, or not.
So some crafts and trades will be expensive, especially in the beginning, just like it is in reality. That 'realism' aspect though is a positive force in conflict and story development. It makes our characters and the factions more dependent upon team work and less solo based.
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no soren were not on the middle ground, this is a hardcore server, go anywhere else and 80% of the systems are easyer then it is in potm, and this isnt panicking this is discussing and asking for a little slack on the gilding system.
and making a char pure for crafting is kind of limeting one's role play experience by force in my eyes, a crafter char could never go on hunts effectively, all they can do is maybe mine a little not to adventerus wich i think for most is not that exciting, they wont see any dm quests they wont havy any good stories, all in all pure crafter charecters would be boring.
i also think that alot on this server stick to a few chars like 3 max or so and pour alot of time and effort into them so making a boring crafter only char wont be much of an option.
now soren i ask you try our boots and sit where we are and give us a review about all this, instead as your position as TEH soren.
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Some feedback and a suggestion which many will appreciate. For the record my belief is the -5 should be -4 to start for all crafts including gilding.
Stats required for each:
Smelting: STR CON
Smithing: STR DEX
Gilding: CON INT
Reasoning, it means a person must be 14 for all stats if they are to be a Smelter/Smith/Gilder. I speak of all three as they are interrelated. Smelting of ore to smith. Require min 30 ranks in Smithing to Gild. A person should not have to be the perfect well rounded 14 stat char in 5 stats to have a chance at success. Some people are not naturals or naturally gifted at performing a task, but go on to master it. More so then the supposed natural/gifted person since it came with extra effort to achieve it.
My belief that for all crafts it would aid in minimizing much of the noise around the difficulty in starting, still make it a challenge while excluding those with no stat preference what so ever towards the craft, while allowing those whom have some stats but say only +3 between the two stats not to be excluded.
The other alternative is to remove the -5 for first learning and slow down the amount of CXP per success. My preference is for the prior example though with the -4 to first learn a template.
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:think: ... I feel a bit like hitting a brick wall here.
I think we have a good example of a gilder that doesn't have to have the entire character centred around it and even pose a nice roleplay story and interaction. Not every smith would fit as a gilder, but you don't have to design your character exactly to be a gilder either. At some point, even, there'll be other options of specialization within the smith trade, and those will other stats would get an advantage there.
Now, concerning the panic, my point was exactly that it isn't just the large crowd of players with the developers on the other side ignoring them - but that we already are at a point where, within our excellent community, there's people on both sides. Claiming otherwise is, in my humble opinion, unneeded dramatizing and inciting to panic. We could of course, simply lock the topic, but I much prefer to kindly encourage people to mind the constructivism of their argumentation... :)
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Roland is lvl 22 smith, i know what im talking about. Roland will never be able to gild, ever. I laugh at the mere thought.
Gilding isn't for everyone, nor should it be. As it is, its way too easy to learn all the crafts, which I think is very unrealistic.
Im against people making power build just so they can choose a craft, not saying anyone did but that's what the new system aims for. Mix maxing their stats so they'll have a slightly better chance at being a crafter without wasting hours clicking on the damn anvil, im sorry yes it's boring and no i dont HAVE to do it, but i do want to do it and i dont think it needs to be as tedious as it is, we're supposed to enjoy this game, right? I think the system needs something to add on to it.
Nef, I'm pretty sure that you "power build" and "min/max" your stats on all your characters already. (And I'm not trying to say anything is wrong with this.) What is stopping you from setting up a characters stats to become a gilder as well? Heck, if you put in a 14 in CON and STR to start with (which is common anyways) and start with a 12 INT, just put the level 4 and 8 bonus points in INT and voila, by that time you'll likely be ready to start gilding. It's funny though, since Torgan isn't min/maxed and has the stats to master all the smith skills. He was created long before I even knew about crafting. And his available "buff" has only ever been Rage, which doesn't effect all the required stats and honestly lasts only a few moments. So, for the most part, I've only had part-time buffs. I've went into woodworking and leatherworking too, and Rage is near useless there. The only reason I haven't mastered those two yet is because I got bored... :oops:
We suggested in game training either by PC or NPC, which could give the new crafter some type of bonus, or to adapt the backgrounds so the PC will start off with a beginner's bonus due to their background. What's wrong with those suggestions?
I'd love this, but only because I'd want it to be even harder to try and do the craft solo otherwise. But no one seems to like forced RP to get through skills, so I'll just stay quiet on the subject.
FYI the majority of people saying "it's fine" already have their levels, so their opinion is somewhat biased. From experience, there is no new gilder around, none. All the smith PCs gave up a while ago.
PC smiths give up all the time. Most give up way before they can even gild anyways. Staying the course requires a person with a lot of patience and determination. The crafts shouldn't be changed because some folks simply aren't capable of dealing with the nature of mastering the crafts.
Here's the problem in a nutshell: What happens when that gilder or bowmaker or weaponsmith goes on hiatus as has happened numerous times? What happens then?
What happens is that those items become more demand than supply. Prices jump, and the items become more valuable, until a new crafter or an old one floods the market again. To me, this gives the market a certain dynamic that keeps things interesting.
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Here's an anecdote, maybe a bit unrelated but it demonstrate my feelings on the server's economic system.
Back in the days Cherry n Jimmy were star Vardos, selling their items left and right, Ric bitched me out because i was selling items for too *low* price. "Oy you could have gotten 10k for that etc etc" and i replied "The idea isnt' to force the player to farm rats for a week, meanwhile some higher level farmer can buy it ten times, the idea is to create an interaction between the merchant and the buyer." and that is what i believe in. Price inflation and deflation etc is only a natural process, i don't stock up on potions, i don't limit how many people can buy. Why? Because they'll always buy what i have and won't if i don't. It makes little difference if i sell ten today and none tomorrow. I can try and be fair, but in the end, it's the interaction that matters. The roleplay.
Here we have a crunching number system that's bothersome and terribly irritating to new players. *forcing* the ones that want to be a gilder/smith, to spend so long in their smithy that they either give up or never see the light of the day. It's easy to say they aren't forced to do it, but what if they want to? Since when the server has been about winning? It's easy to say nobody can be as awesome as xyz, but if this game is still about having fun and enjoy the roleplay, and not about farming ore and LFG SILVER MINE NEED ROUGE, well, the system should be more friendly toward all the players.
I'm done with this anyways. Like someone said, since i don't smith it's not my problem, right?
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I'll toss my few cents in here as i've gotten a pc thats starting to delve into the craft though not to gilding yet obvious :D
percy has the following stats atm
str 16
dex 13
con 14
int 14
wis 10
cha 8
Now his stat points will be going towards str all the way to 20 IF he gets there of course :D in either case i've worked alongside neffy here with woodworking and bow making and while wood working IS easy enough for percy he's REALLY gotta dump time and money into the bowerying part due to lack of dex and wis :) which aint a problem really it just means more time and effort on my part to get anywhere decent at it.
i've also started the smithing too non success yet despite his stats. In some ways it does come to luck on the part of the rolls. I know that my other pc florence who've i'm dumped TONS of hours into herbalism is barely beyond lvl 2 in teh craft and has ok stats for the craft yet she has failed baszillons of time likely due to just simple bad rolls its frustrating belive me heh
now my thoughts on this whole min maxing thing. I'll admit to a certain degree I DO min max a few of my pcs though its more often then not related in some fashion to a story that fits it. My feeling though is that one shouldnt have to min max there stats to get really good at a craft I'll agree here with Shadowspawns suggestions of maybe putting that -5 down to -4 least then its easier and if someone has a +2/+2 to the craft in questoin then all they need is a 20 to get by it.
I'm sure there's more i'll come up with but atm i cant think of anything else to add currently
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Shadowspawn mentioned that it takes 6 months to become a master smith and master gilder. It probably took me two, maybe three, with making steel full plate in meerly two weeks. But that's because I had spent those two weeks straight, doing nothing but practicing my smithing and smelting for 10+ hours a day. And as soon as I got to gilding, I did heavy duty, hardcore grinding on silver gilding utilizing my large bank balance to finance it.
Back then, I had two Rages, that last about 10 seconds or so. So to say that it barely influenced my crafting would be honest. I have largely done all my smithing un-buffed. Anyone that bought steel full plate probably saw Torgan getting mad at the anvil, but mostly it was to guarantee an auto-success on that specific suit of armor because wasting my thousand fangs on the template, and the characters 15+ minutes customizing the suit kind of sucks.
The point of this is that I did smithing basically unbuffed, with the current system. If I can do it, anyone with the same mentality and determination can. Nothing needs fixing. Folks just need to approach the crafts without the expectation of buffs speeding their progress along.
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Shadowspawn mentioned that it takes 6 months to become a master smith and master gilder. It probably took me two, maybe three, with making steel full plate in meerly two weeks. But that's because I had spent those two weeks straight, doing nothing but practicing my smithing and smelting for 10+ hours a day
Do you mean 10+ in game hours, or 10+ real life hours. It may be a silly question, but I am completely serious in asking.
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10 real hours.
10 game hours is a bit quick.
~Rex
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What happens is that those items become more demand than supply. Prices jump, and the items become more valuable, until a new crafter or an old one floods the market again. To me, this gives the market a certain dynamic that keeps things interesting.
No what happens is that player who happens to arrive at the wrong time doesn't have access to better equipment. Sure, they can wait for whoever to get into playing or someone new to come (maybe), but wow what a welcome.
As this server moves more towards a player based economy, it will only work if the crafter playerbase stays ingame. Otherwise, it doesn't work or just creates more hoops for a player to jump through. This is game, not a competition.
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Shadowspawn mentioned that it takes 6 months to become a master smith and master gilder. It probably took me two, maybe three, with making steel full plate in meerly two weeks. But that's because I had spent those two weeks straight, doing nothing but practicing my smithing and smelting for 10+ hours a day
Do you mean 10+ in game hours, or 10+ real life hours. It may be a silly question, but I am completely serious in asking.
Definitely real life hours. That's a lot of boredom and monotony, and is an example of the effort required to become a master smith. I did this largely unaffected by buffs, and that's why I disagree that any of the crafts need to be made easier or more accessible. (In fact, I think Herbalism needs to be made harder.) Torgan was in high demand before my hiatus, and I made a good deal of money fashioning suits of armor and crafting silver gilded weapons. But I earned that place up top.
No what happens is that player who happens to arrive at the wrong time doesn't have access to better equipment. Sure, they can wait for whoever to get into playing or someone new to come (maybe), but wow what a welcome.
On the flip side, maybe silver gilded weapons were too easily purchased before. When I got here, no one could gild. Silver scimitars were the thing to get. Now, everyone has gilded weapons (or can purchase them from the handful of gilders present).
As this server moves more towards a player based economy, it will only work if the crafter playerbase stays ingame. Otherwise, it doesn't work or just creates more hoops for a player to jump through. This is game, not a competition.
Dorin and I are still around and willing to take orders. Just PM us.
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Shadowspawn mentioned that it takes 6 months to become a master smith and master gilder. It probably took me two, maybe three, with making steel full plate in meerly two weeks. But that's because I had spent those two weeks straight, doing nothing but practicing my smithing and smelting for 10+ hours a day
Do you mean 10+ in game hours, or 10+ real life hours. It may be a silly question, but I am completely serious in asking.
Definitely real life hours. That's a lot of boredom and monotony, and is an example of the effort required to become a master smith. I did this largely unaffected by buffs, and that's why I disagree that any of the crafts need to be made easier or more accessible. (In fact, I think Herbalism needs to be made harder.) Torgan was in high demand before my hiatus, and I made a good deal of money fashioning suits of armor and crafting silver gilded weapons. But I earned that place up top.
No what happens is that player who happens to arrive at the wrong time doesn't have access to better equipment. Sure, they can wait for whoever to get into playing or someone new to come (maybe), but wow what a welcome.
On the flip side, maybe silver gilded weapons were too easily purchased before. When I got here, no one could gild. Silver scimitars were the thing to get. Now, everyone has gilded weapons (or can purchase them from the handful of gilders present).
As this server moves more towards a player based economy, it will only work if the crafter playerbase stays ingame. Otherwise, it doesn't work or just creates more hoops for a player to jump through. This is game, not a competition.
Dorin and I are still around and willing to take orders. Just PM us.
Otto doesn't have a guilded weapon, plus, he thinks Dorin is a nancy boy in poofy underwear, and thinks Torgon needs an acid bath. But those are just RP issues :D Need, an Ugly, Human, Crafter that can ICly cater to all. That's something that missing a bit from grafting in general is that whole IC thing, Lot of PM me this and that, watched full blown ooc conversations that last hours while folks twiddle around with it.
As for Guilding, It should be hard though I think it should be a seperate craft. I have to get that proposal finished and posted I think you'll like it Ethinos.
Care Bears will hate it. Maybe the Smurfs and the Care Cousins to. Snorks and fraggles will think it rocks though.
~Rex
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the only thing i would really like to see changed in all honesty . . . is cold forged iron added, which i've heard in rumors is in the works. Otherwise, i t hink it is fine. Having done some smithing, leather working, and herbalism now, it does take a lot of time, patience, and resources. One ruins sooo much when learning, and it does take hours upon hours to do. Especially now that buffs don't work, but then. . .none of my chars really have any buffs. . maybe my new cleric, but otherwise no.
I mainly gave up on crafting due to the fact that if you ever need a rebuild, you loose hours of practice in a craft and then have to redo it all. As for master smiths, i don't think there really are many of them.
I've noticed as well, that the majority of things which can be made don't equal or match the things which have vanished from the merchants of late either. The rogue armors, bows from deganway, and so on and so forth. I'm sure they are in the drops now though, as i've noticed the drops have been really nice lately. . well, if you survive to get to them. :P
Maybe something like adamantium? Not even sure if such can be found in the core, will have to do some research. I have found platinum, but if i recall nothing can be made with it just yet, then of course, not sure what it would be good for other than enchanting if mixed with something else as an alloy.