Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Delphinidae on June 24, 2008, 01:53:38 PM

Title: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Delphinidae on June 24, 2008, 01:53:38 PM
Human mules. Would give some low level chars something to do.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: dutchy on June 24, 2008, 02:05:58 PM
human mules?   im a str based char...........this is even nerfing me badly, if you nerf/nerve (however spelled) somthing like this then compensate     thus make sure more str potions be around or pack mules to help, i cna carry 233 lbs without buffs yet i cant do much muling  cause i cant move.



its a nice system but needs compensation for the actual mules                    40 pieces of ore.......ain gonna work for lets say silver mines
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: EO on June 24, 2008, 02:06:56 PM
Don't carry insane amounts of weight. That's the purpose of the change. Instead of filling up your inventory with ore, just grab less each time and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Taty on June 24, 2008, 02:07:48 PM
 But if you want to force the realism of encumbrance on people to limit their abiltiy to exploit crafting, where is the counter realism of mules which should be available ? They certainly are not a complex addition to the system.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Ryltar/ Robert Archer on June 24, 2008, 02:08:20 PM
Human mules. Would give some low level chars something to do.

 :twisted: slavery!  :twisted:
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: dutchy on June 24, 2008, 02:18:46 PM
insane amounts?   i can carry 233   and 345 max................how is someone going to save people that died?   

isnt just ore
crafters they make armors and such yet got no permenant boxes to place thier stuff in  they are walking shops can only carry what 3 armors then they are doomed?


this effects more then just alot of ore, basicly the whole crafting is getting kicked in the butt, wich takes on the local market value of things wich will increase, everything still costs the same and no way of making fang.       these all be reactions tot he actions beeing taken.



even it out you add something this heavy then compensate with something else.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Delphinidae on June 24, 2008, 02:20:41 PM
Human mules. Would give some low level chars something to do.
:twisted: slavery!  :twisted:

No, seriously. Hire people to carry stuff. Sure, it won't be the same as what you used to carry before this current system, but it gives them something to do. You could pay them with fangs, discounts on items or bank their services until they can afford to buy something off your craft. If you do have an apprentice, have him/her carry stuff too.

As for mules and horses, I thought that wasn't supported and was going to be discussed with the 1.69 patch. There was a thread somewhere.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Delphinidae on June 24, 2008, 02:27:15 PM
insane amounts?   i can carry 233   and 345 max................how is someone going to save people that died?   

isnt just ore
crafters they make armors and such yet got no permenant boxes to place thier stuff in  they are walking shops can only carry what 3 armors then they are doomed?

this effects more then just alot of ore, basicly the whole crafting is getting kicked in the butt, wich takes on the local market value of things wich will increase, everything still costs the same and no way of making fang.       these all be reactions tot he actions beeing taken.

even it out you add something this heavy then compensate with something else.

Only carry goods or craft when you have an order. Make people pay at least 50% before crafting anything. That way you avoid carrying extra unwanted crafted goods and if the person doesn't collect after a set time, you can dump the armor in the trash or with a DM's help if you don't want people finding a free armor, you could smelt it (DM takes/destroys it) It won't hurt as much since you already got half of its worth.

As for the carrying people, yes, I told EO the same thing, but this will make it much more exciting and dangerous as the person who is carrying the other one will need to really have some cover/backup as he's taken along. Same applies to monsters who decide to leg it with a meal. It would also promote people into being more cautious when facing an enemy since they'll know it's harder to rescue someone.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: EO on June 24, 2008, 02:39:54 PM
You are all free to discuss it, but I would suggest waiting before giving feedback. The system is new and you are all unused to it. Give it a week or two then see how it feels instead of going with "worst case scenarios".
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: DarkWyvern on June 24, 2008, 02:45:03 PM
Quote
but this will make it much more exciting and dangerous as the person who is carrying the other one will need to really have some cover/backup as he's taken along.

I concur. I tend to reward folks who use backup while carrying a body rather than having this body slung over their shoulder and breaking into sudden battle with their sword and shield. Is the body dropped? Is it being used as a weapon? This change I think will enhance more Roleplay among the player base, instead of everyone going their own separate ways and going craft crazy :)
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Rex on June 24, 2008, 03:33:41 PM
Still trying to figure out why the thread went over to encumbrance and dead body carrying?  Buffs still factor in during the GATHERING phase right?  You can still haul 5000 pounds of Iron Ore on your back across the mountains.

I don't see what Nulling the Buffs during the crafting portion has to do with lugging the raw material around.

~Rex
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Chrisman888 on June 24, 2008, 03:40:10 PM
  You can still haul 5000 pounds of Iron Ore on your back across the mountains.

~Rex


Lmfao. Funny, and true
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Rex on June 24, 2008, 03:51:33 PM
Once you exceed your Max Drag heavy load, you should by Immobile.  completely, and taking damage.  Fixes that issue right off the bat.

~Rex
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: EO on June 24, 2008, 03:52:26 PM
Try the new system Rex. ;)
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: ethinos on June 24, 2008, 04:10:06 PM
Once you exceed your Max Drag heavy load, you should by Immobile.  completely, and taking damage.  Fixes that issue right off the bat.

~Rex


Yep, something like that has been implemented.

I've tried smithing, smelting, gilding, woodworking, carpentry, hide curing, leathermaking, and leather boiling with Torgan. The only "buff" ever available to me was Rage, which only affects Str and Con, and then not even for long compared to a true buff spell/potion. I've mastered smithing, smelting, and gilding. I've gotten pretty good with carpentry and woodworking, and am a bit n00bish at leathermaking simply because of the hassle of getting all those hides together. If I can make it without buffs, so can anyone.

Torgan has something like 10 magic bags, with the majority of them being the -60%. This is how I can have multiple suits of armor, always have at least 5-10 ingots of silver on me, and more weapons than I'll need in Torgan's life and still have room to spare. And yes, only craft what you know you can sell.

The only thing I see this doing is that you can no longer fill your entire inventory up with metal ore, and try and make it back to a smithy. Which I think is probably a good thing since there was no logic in it. (Even though I've seen some smiths RP having a wagon or cart with them...)

As for corpse carrying, they too fit in magical bags.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: dutchy on June 24, 2008, 04:16:59 PM
you are imobile rex.

these things are made so that you cant walk when heavely encumbered.    wierd thing is its dex based.........now we all seen some hulk guy pull a train or a big ass truck right?              truly those aint dexers   

and ive seen such things beeing implemented on other servers. results  crafting became to hard as folks play this game for fun and stopped dooing it, wich ment less cash on the market and the crafted items that were around where priced out of the roof.


also if this is made to make it more realism, then why is it dex based     and why dont i gain xp then? i mean i carry loads of stuff daily irl il tend to get more muscle, yet ingame i dont gain a thing.     


and ethinos as i said make bags available to everyone then to compensate, now its only for mages to buy  (so ive heared)  implement oxes  or carts or whatever.


ps: let it be clear ia gree its stupid to havea  inv full of ore and still be able to walk whistling like its a nice summerwalk in the woods
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: ethinos on June 24, 2008, 04:21:57 PM
I have no idea why the system would be dex based. Odd indeed.

However, if you need a magic bag, ask your local, friendly Vardo.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Serevain on June 24, 2008, 05:07:49 PM
*pets his 22 dex* We can lug those corpses up the mountain to drop down a slope, now CAN'T we..?
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Rex on June 24, 2008, 05:17:38 PM
Try the new system Rex. ;)

Uggh I didn't know a new carry system had been implemented, but that explains why this turned into a two topic thread.  I'll give it a shot and see though.

~Rex
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Zarathustra217 on June 25, 2008, 02:48:21 AM
Dex based? Huh? Not really based on anything but your max encumbrance that's strength based, read from the encumbrance.2da.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Rex on June 25, 2008, 02:58:48 AM
Dex based? Huh? Not really based on anything but your max encumbrance that's strength based, read from the encumbrance.2da.

Max Encumbrance via PnP or something in the game?  Max in PnP is considerable.  Max Drag for a 12 Str for example (off the top of my head, 5 hours before drive to a 5 day convention, and a touch inebriated) close to or just over 600 pounds, drag/dead lift.  With serious reduction in movement obviously.

~Rex
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Zarathustra217 on June 25, 2008, 03:31:34 AM
This is the table. First column is the strength score. Values for weight are in tenths of pounds.

Code: [Select]

2DA V2.0                           
                                   
           Normal    Heavy
0          0         0             
1          60        100           
2          130       200           
3          200       300           
4          260       500           
5          330       600           
6          600       700           
7          660       800           
8          730       900           
9          800       1000           
10         860       1100           
11         920       1150           
12         1000      1300           
13         1100      1500           
14         1160      1750           
15         1330      2000           
16         1530      2300           
17         1730      2600           
18         2000      3000           
19         2330      3500           
20         2660      4000           
21         3060      4600           
22         3460      5200           
23         4000      6000           
24         4660      7000           
25         5330      8000           
26         6130      9200           
27         6930      10400         
28         8000      12000         
29         9330      14000         
30         12130     18200         
31         14930     22400         
32         17730     26600         
33         20530     30800         
34         23330     35000         
35         26130     39200         
36         28930     43400         
37         31730     47600         
38         34530     51800         
39         37330     56000         
40         48530     73400         
41         59730     90800         
42         70930     108200         
43         82130     125600         
44         93330     143000         
45         104530    160400         
46         115730    177800         
47         126930    195200         
48         138130    212600         
49         149330    230000         
50         160530    247400         
51         171730    261400
52        182930      275400
53        194130      289400
54        205330      303400
55        216530      317400
56        227730      331400
57        238930      345400
58        250130      359400
59        261330      373400
60        272530      387400
61        283730      401400
62        294930      415400
63        306130      429400
64        317330      443400
65        328530      457400
66        339730      471400
67        350930      485400
68        362130      499400
69        373330      513400
70        384530      527400
71        395730      541400
72        406930      555400
73        418130      569400
74        429330      583400
75        440530      597400
76        451730      611400
77        462930      625400
78        474130      639400
79        485330      653400
80        496530      667400
81        507730      681400
82        518930      695400
83        530130      709400
84        541330      723400
85        552530      737400
86        563730      751400
87        574930      765400
88        586130      779400
89        597330      793400
90        608530      807400
91        619730      821400
92        630930      835400
93        642130      849400
94        653330      863400
95        664530      877400
96        675730      891400
97        686930      905400
98        698130      919400
99        709330      933400
100        720530      947400


It might be that it's better to set the maximum for longer distances to 2x normal weight limit  - still a new implementation, and, of course, will have to be tuned. The main problem before was that if you were willing to move around max encumbered, there was virtually no limit to how much you could carry, besides the amount of inventory slots you had.

Think I'll split the encumbrance system posts into a seperate topic though... Hang on.
Title: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Zarathustra217 on June 25, 2008, 03:34:14 AM
As you've likely noticed by now, we've implemented a new encumbrance system that will cause you to become immobile if you walk around heavily encumbered over longer distances. Once you've been 'marked' as moving a long while heavily encumbered, you will either have to drop enough items to get below that bar, or rest up.

This topic is for discussion this new system.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Nefensis on June 25, 2008, 03:42:28 AM
Another system is needed to overcome this, rather than forcing characters to max out their strength and make unbalanced characters. The idea of adding more magical bags is on the plate, but i'd like something more set toward crafters, like the idea of donkeys (basically bags of holding type, maybe 80% reduction, that would fade after let's say an hour irl and drop the ore into the inventory.)
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: DM Macabre on June 25, 2008, 04:06:00 AM
Personally I favour player donkeys. My old character Marjiana e.g. once used Soren Nexus as one. Worked perfectly well! You don't need STR for this but CHA! ;)
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: Nefensis on June 25, 2008, 04:21:40 AM
Personally I favour player donkeys. My old character Marjiana e.g. once used Soren Nexus as one. Worked perfectly well! You don't need STR for this but CHA! ;)

Ah! Resorting in using other characters, unreliable to boot, it's difficult enough to provide herbs for three herbologist already. We'll see what happen next.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: JipK on June 25, 2008, 04:31:37 AM
Well, if you need some bags, ask me, I can use some Fang  :roll:

Anyways, you can either find bags or buy them of a Vardo. 60% weight reduction is a whole lot already.
Title: Re: Craft Modifiers & Null Buffs
Post by: engelfire on June 25, 2008, 04:36:56 AM
Yus insert deer Gran'tak mouth !! Gran'tak carry pebbles !! HRAAAGH !
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: dutchy on June 27, 2008, 09:40:55 AM
beena  few days    and still dotn like it
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Bad_Bud on June 27, 2008, 09:53:54 AM
Barbarians are the body rescue squad.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: failed.bard on June 27, 2008, 10:00:10 AM
If you see an umber hulk stomping around, it's just wilhelm hauling ore into vallaki.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Bad_Bud on June 27, 2008, 10:09:12 AM
If you see an umber hulk stomping around, it's just wilhelm hauling ore into vallaki.

Haha, I never thought about it like that.  Damn mages are going to be the mules.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: failed.bard on June 27, 2008, 10:14:10 AM
If you see an umber hulk stomping around, it's just wilhelm hauling ore into vallaki.

Haha, I never thought about it like that.  Damn mages are going to be the mules.

With a good buff and polymorph I think he can hit 800 pounds base.  With vardo bags he could still carry over a ton.  The system just needs some creativity to adapt to it.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Bad_Bud on June 27, 2008, 10:15:08 AM
Or more druids.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: LawfulJoe on June 27, 2008, 12:49:51 PM
Picked up a body last night... and I could not move.

Now, Realisticly... if a 100lb lady in the military in full gear, can do a shoulder drag on a man twice her weight, also in full gear (not real fast mind you), I think an elf, with a 12 strength should be able to do the same.

Sollution, can we lower the weight on bodies?

I understand wanting to curb people from carrying tons of ore about, but that's why extrademensional bags were made for. We want to carry more than our weight in stuff without burden, in a world of magic, we applied the art to accomplishing that, much as we do in reallife. We want to fly like the birds, we invent a plane. Magic is the Technology of the Fantasy world. The difference, Magic is not hindered by the laws of physics, so in a magic wold there is actually more room for abuse, Mules with Extradementional saddle bags.

Heh, makes me wonder how many of the "Witch Burners" fear their magic bags of holding.

"EVIL BAG! It holdeth a suit of armor, 2 longswords and 700 arrows... BURN IT! Burn... it, wait a moment... That bag holds a lot of stuff, at half the weight, This is AMAZING, so much that... um... it can't be witchcraft, it must be, um, holy... Yes, These are blessed bags of mass holding, Tell it on the Mountain!! The Gods have blessed us with a grand gift... only 1500 fangs from your local Red Vardo Traders."

This ad was paid for by the Red Vardo Traders, Red Vardo, We sell all your adventuring needs... [slits an independant merchants throat as the spokesman walks by] and noone else!
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Badbelly on June 27, 2008, 01:07:01 PM
If you see an umber hulk stomping around, it's just wilhelm hauling ore into vallaki.


If you see a archer shooting arrows at a Umber Hulk, Its just Liam doin his job.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: k_moustakas on June 27, 2008, 01:08:57 PM
No worries, I'll personally make sure the umber hulk is invisible and hasted :p
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Ellana Twiggy on June 27, 2008, 03:56:23 PM
well, its 125 lbs actually, the gear weighing about 75 to 100 lbs as well, and the position is a shoulder carry. Lean down, scoop up, and swing over ones shoulders, and then run.  Even with all the gear on I could run with a 185lb person, 200 lb person I had to walk. Almost fell over scooping them up too.  Heh. . .of course I don't really factor in the weight of the equipment either on the people, so it was probably more than just their weight.

Realistically, with a good bag, I could move about oh. . .150lb of stuff i think on my back and still be able to run fairly well, moving people is a bit different, usually adrenaline is there and you don't notice the weight. Still, in training you do, and it is still possible to do in training.

But thanks for the compliment, if you were calling me thin :-P
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: ethinos on June 27, 2008, 04:59:40 PM
Sollution, can we lower the weight on bodies?

Actually, the bodies were made heavier sometime within the last year because they were too light.

I think Soren is still going to make a slight alteration to allow for slightly more load before being overencumbered. Until then, just grin and bear it since the system is still being tweaked.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: LawfulJoe on June 27, 2008, 05:10:53 PM
Oh I will, but I won't be bringing any found corpses back to the Church for proper burial until then. Just a service offered by my Drow. It's not because he is a nice guy. It is because found bodies could potentially rise again (RP minded) without the proper rituals and I figure the Morning Lord priests would know how best to keep the dead... um... Dead.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: LawfulJoe on June 27, 2008, 10:25:49 PM
OH MAN! This is an annoying system. 52 lbs over, trying to get another PC back from the baratak mountains top the church for raising, and I can go very short distances before having to rest. Is it realist, perhaps, but is it fun... not at all. With limited time for playing, if lugging a corpse down the mountain takes hours, I will most likely not help anyone again unless they ar e a map or two from a church. I am writing this while I wait the 2 in game hours to rest again, so I can move a few more feet down the mountain... UGH!
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: ethinos on June 27, 2008, 10:27:34 PM
Next time, bring a hulking fighter with you. Or a rez scroll. :lol:

Still, nice knowing that folks may think twice about being suicidally over-aggressive on dungeon runs or during DM events if they know that folks may not bother with corpse retrieval.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: shadymerchant on June 27, 2008, 10:31:41 PM
Oh yeah, the res scroll you can't buy from Ezrites, and it's fantastic when you, the hulking fighter dies. It's wonderful when your companion can't go 30 steps without needing to rest, postponing movement for 3 hours. It's awesome when ater 15 minutes you've managed to get 20 feet down Baratak. Whoo, this script is just a blast! I love when a "realism" script completely ruins my experience.

More more!
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: ethinos on June 27, 2008, 10:35:16 PM
After hearing all these complaints, I think I'm going to set up the "Adventurers Corpse Insurance Policy Company".

I'll have a bunch of hulking calibans, humans, and dwarves hired to run and grab corpses in exchange for a sizable, monthly premium. :twisted:

(I remember buying the rez scrolls from someone besides the Ezrites though...*shrugs*)
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: LawfulJoe on June 27, 2008, 10:42:38 PM
I have a sollution, sit in the Lady's Rest and Drink... get all your XP from RP, you might see 10th level by 2009. Oh wait, I play a drow and get killed if I go in the Lady's Rest and noone will want to lug my corpse across the yard because you will have to rest half way there to get there. Ok... I better stop. I am annoyed an venting. Bad script... needs ALOT of Tweaking.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: shadymerchant on June 27, 2008, 10:48:04 PM
Since I'm not going to rely on you being on, I'd say this is a pretty glaring hole in the whole idea. I find it hard to even post right now (productively) I'm so frustrated by this. If dying wasn't a good enough end to the ordeal, it's going to take hours, or 2500 + in gold and scrolls to even get back up and playing again.

This is not a good script. It is a terrible script.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: failed.bard on June 28, 2008, 12:54:28 AM
  The weight over at which it kicks in needs to be changed, and the way it's applied seems off.  It seems like the moment the game clock ticks to the next hour whether it's been 5 seconds or 5 minutes you're stuck..  I could be wrong on that, will need to test more, but that's how it seems at the moment.

  The way it is now, I think I might stop smithing with Wilhelm for a few days and spend the week-end running all over the place doing body grabs with him.  Death is a growth industry you know.


  I think it was Jerv that had suggested (in a tell conversation in game) a daze effect be added to the characters when they had gone too far with too much, instead of a total stop in movement.  Perhaps after a longer period of slow movement and not being able to defend yourself the total immobility could kick in.  This would show the character getting tired, instead of suddenly being to exhausted to move.

  Another option would be to add the daze effect immediately on exceeding 1.5x the max encumbrance, and have it removed once you dropped under the limit again.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Helaman on June 28, 2008, 07:52:34 AM
I think 1/2/3/4  is best

1 - Unecombured
2 - Encoumbered
3 - heavily encumbered (you can still move)
4 - You got to be kidding me - stop moving and shed wieght
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: ThAnswr on June 28, 2008, 08:24:48 AM
I'm going to send this OT, but so be it.

The "wise old sage" advice around here is "party up".  Considering you have players from multiple time zones, that is NOT always an option.  Should we tell our European friends "log on during US mainland" time to get the most from the game?  I've been on this server in the early morning when there were 6 people on.

Let's use our heads here and not grab for the "same old/same old" advice.  It isn't always feasible. 

****stepping off the soapbox****
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: kenpen on June 28, 2008, 08:34:34 AM
I'm going to have to agree; this system needs some overhaul.

In the spider caves, hit with strength poison. Instantly, I'm jammed up. Despite having used a restoration potion and immediately gotten my strength back, I can still no longer walk because - for a split second - I was heavily encumbered. Restoration potions should really fix all of that.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Chrisman888 on June 28, 2008, 11:21:25 AM
I'm going to have to agree; this system needs some overhaul.

In the spider caves, hit with strength poison. Instantly, I'm jammed up. Despite having used a restoration potion and immediately gotten my strength back, I can still no longer walk because - for a split second - I was heavily encumbered. Restoration potions should really fix all of that.

That's bad. I guess crippling strikes rogues are the king of the server now.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Lyrithean on June 28, 2008, 07:05:39 PM
I'm going to send this OT, but so be it.

The "wise old sage" advice around here is "party up".  Considering you have players from multiple time zones, that is NOT always an option.  Should we tell our European friends "log on during US mainland" time to get the most from the game?  I've been on this server in the early morning when there were 6 people on.

Let's use our heads here and not grab for the "same old/same old" advice.  It isn't always feasible. 

****stepping off the soapbox****

Also considering the factioned atmosphere of the server, partying up isn't always a viable option for players. Guard can't find another guard to party up with so decides to party up with one of the undead faction. If I see it I'll shoot you and so should DM's or there should be some heavy RP consequences for partying with a conflicting faction. Seriously, with the multiple faction setup on this server the "lets all get together in a big party and go kill stuff together and sing songs" togetherness that other servers push just isn't right, coupled with timezones and the like, level differentials etc etc.. sometimes finding people to party with is just.. nearly impossible. Either people need to back off on their need for constant conflict between factions or IMHO we need to back off on the systems that make soloing or small party groups nearly impossible.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: failed.bard on June 28, 2008, 08:49:12 PM
  Nobody particularly likes the new system the way it is, I understand that.  WIlhelm has started using spells he didn't before, and I can get around it with him.  If people would give some actual feedback on the system, and what they thought could be done to improve it, it would be more likely to get some changes made to it than simply complaining.

  I posted the suggestion Jerv had, helaman had one for changing the ratios they kicked in at.

  There's also an issue with having to drop and pick up an item in order to move again once you're under the limit due to restoration or strength boost that needs to be addressed.

  The script isn't a bad idea (I've had characters over 3000 pounds overloaded before, simply because I didn't want to make multiple ore trips), it just needs to be tweaked, and ideas are more useful than rants for that.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Ellana Twiggy on June 29, 2008, 03:13:21 AM
maybe something more sensible.  even if heavily encumbered one can drop things to keep moving at a slow pace.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Zarathustra217 on June 29, 2008, 10:33:24 AM
I realise this system has come off as very harsh, and I apologies for all unnecessary grief it has caused. I'll flat out admit that I had not imagined that people this often moved around heavily encumbered. The issue that was targetted with this was primarily people who set their PCs to mine while going AFK for half an hour, then got back and filled their inventory to the brim. If preventing that makes crafts like smithing too hard, then I'd rather regulate it at the other end, making it more easy - but otherwise, we'll have it balanced toward endless trivial mining.

A solution could be pack animals - which would be a nice implementation for the roleplay purposes of it too - but for now, I think I'll simply regulate the values and add more stages of over-encumbrance, determining how fast you go into the state of complete exhaustion.

In the spider caves, hit with strength poison. Instantly, I'm jammed up. Despite having used a restoration potion and immediately gotten my strength back, I can still no longer walk because - for a split second - I was heavily encumbered. Restoration potions should really fix all of that.

If you have any effects applied that increase your strength or remove penalties, leaving you outside the heavily encumbered range, simply drop an item and pick it up for the system to record it. This is a limitation to the system that will have to be lived with - otherwise, we should alter every point in the game that a strength effect might be applied, which isn't very practical.



Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on June 29, 2008, 12:11:23 PM
An observation, most characters walk around with less then 20 pounds free capacity in their inventory. Carrying a companion automatically increases weight capacity to heavily burdened in all but the strongest characters. Add more then one companion and your done.
Typically when a smith is "Powercrafting" with a full load of ore it is around 800 pounds of ore. As a suggested increase to allow for the carrying of bodies, X 2.5 for the immobility with 1.0 being existing weight capacity. This will allow for a buffer where people will still move at the heavily encumbered weight rate.

Spiders right now have considerably increased in nastiness. High DC for first effect where it lowers str by a few points, then second hit or effect over time and the pc drops down to 4 or 5 str. No matter the weight restriction there will be little escape. The reason is because of less then 20 pounds free capacity.

To provide the answer as to why everyone carries so much, lack of permanent storage. Everyone must carry everything at all times. I realise permanent storage is not available for overhead reasons on the server and a thread should not begin to discuss it as it's a flogged horse already. But since everyone has to carry everything they own, weight capacity is a constant challenge. Many PC's carry magic bags to aid in inventory management but with maximum 60% bags which aid in bearing more of a load, irregardless inventory management and weight restrictions can cause significant impact on the experience people have while playing as people find more gear and wish to keep certain gear for certain dungeons where that gear is the difference between life and death of their PC's.

I think the idea is a sound one, with some minor tweaks it will add to the enjoyment and suspense.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: ThAnswr on June 29, 2008, 01:20:29 PM
An observation, most characters walk around with less then 20 pounds free capacity in their inventory. Carrying a companion automatically increases weight capacity to heavily burdened in all but the strongest characters. Add more then one companion and your done.
Typically when a smith is "Powercrafting" with a full load of ore it is around 800 pounds of ore. As a suggested increase to allow for the carrying of bodies, X 2.5 for the immobility with 1.0 being existing weight capacity. This will allow for a buffer where people will still move at the heavily encumbered weight rate.

Spiders right now have considerably increased in nastiness. High DC for first effect where it lowers str by a few points, then second hit or effect over time and the pc drops down to 4 or 5 str. No matter the weight restriction there will be little escape. The reason is because of less then 20 pounds free capacity.

To provide the answer as to why everyone carries so much, lack of permanent storage. Everyone must carry everything at all times. I realise permanent storage is not available for overhead reasons on the server and a thread should not begin to discuss it as it's a flogged horse already. But since everyone has to carry everything they own, weight capacity is a constant challenge. Many PC's carry magic bags to aid in inventory management but with maximum 60% bags which aid in bearing more of a load, irregardless inventory management and weight restrictions can cause significant impact on the experience people have while playing as people find more gear and wish to keep certain gear for certain dungeons where that gear is the difference between life and death of their PC's.

I think the idea is a sound one, with some minor tweaks it will add to the enjoyment and suspense.

You have hit the nail squarely on the head:  People carry weight because they need the equipment. 

Every potion, every scroll, every gauntlet, and every item that make this game playable has weight.  Even herbs have weight.  Every mushroom, bit of mold, bit of grass, etc., weighs 5.28 oz EACH.  For realism's sake, that's in fantasyland.

Here's a very simple solution to solving the weight problem:  Implement real magic bags with 80% - 100% weight reduction. 

It'll never happen.  It doesn't fit in with the vision. 

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. 

I'd give Rex an opening with "End of story", but he's not here   :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Vespertilio on June 29, 2008, 01:55:10 PM
The suggestion that you become dazed, not utterly paralyzed, sounded like a good one to me and a decent compromise.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Ric on June 29, 2008, 02:31:43 PM
100% weight reduction bags are a bit beyond, but I would like to see 80% bags as rare loot.  I'm pretty sure a lot of people would treat 80% bags on par with +2 gear in terms of value.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: cptpatriot on June 29, 2008, 04:46:38 PM
Since there is no storage system, of course there are gonna be carrying issues.

Here is a list of some of my characters and what they typically carry around in weight:

NameWeightClass
Mileena Soto
75
Monk
Kellia Tannor
73
Fighter
Tairan Shawson
74
Fighter

Yes, the lack of a storage system is a problem, but bags of holding can be abused, I think there should be a system set up to convert items into a data object that can be stored on the PC. Make an object that gives the PC the option to convert their items back and forth.

Until then,
I think that this system can be tweaked by simply calculating in extra weight to handle the normal overhead associated with a character, say 100 pounds.
Then add that much to the weight a person can carry.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: failed.bard on June 29, 2008, 09:11:12 PM
  Found one flaw in the system, where you can carry massive loads even after you've become immobile.  Will PM Soren details.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Rex on June 29, 2008, 09:27:12 PM
  Found one flaw in the system, where you can carry massive loads even after you've become immobile.  Will PM Soren details.

Easy Fix......  *Codes in Critical Mass to the load system.....Steps back to watch the Boom*

~Rex
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: shadymerchant on June 30, 2008, 12:01:47 AM
  Nobody particularly likes the new system the way it is, I understand that.  WIlhelm has started using spells he didn't before, and I can get around it with him.  If people would give some actual feedback on the system, and what they thought could be done to improve it, it would be more likely to get some changes made to it than simply complaining.

  I posted the suggestion Jerv had, helaman had one for changing the ratios they kicked in at.

  There's also an issue with having to drop and pick up an item in order to move again once you're under the limit due to restoration or strength boost that needs to be addressed.

  The script isn't a bad idea (I've had characters over 3000 pounds overloaded before, simply because I didn't want to make multiple ore trips), it just needs to be tweaked, and ideas are more useful than rants for that.


The obvious solution for that would be for DM's to instakill players caught doing it since it's cheesy, or outright make a rule against it. I didn't offer any suggestions to the system because I think it has very little benefit to begin with and it's far better simply removed. Implimenting scripts to fix problems with multiple factors has worked just about never.

My problem wasn't even that I was soloing. It was that I died and my party quite literally could not get me down the mountain. In the end he burnt my corpse to turn it into ashes, than 8k was paid for a ressurection.

Someone suggested making corpses lighter. Corpse weight has always been fine, so why alter it for the sake of a new, flawed system?

The intent may have been good here but unless there is some kind of wonder solution, it's worth more trouble than the benefit of policing cheesy crafters. I don't craft and yet it's already had negative consequences for me.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Nefensis on June 30, 2008, 01:17:47 AM
From what im seeing, the new system makes it harder on people that aint the ones the system was implemented for. Granted miners cant "powermine" anymore, but everyone is in troubles now.

Another suggestion would be to make the ore veins carry less ore, like 4-10 each max.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Heretic on June 30, 2008, 01:34:52 AM
Another suggestion would be to make the ore veins carry less ore, like 4-10 each max.

There's the rocks (Big pleaceable) and the Seams (The invisible placeables that give a lot of nuggets), the Ore seams give way too much ore. The Rocks give just the right amount of ore. The veins should only be carrying the same amount as the rocks are. Removing the seams is an idea.

That should balance it some more.

Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: failed.bard on June 30, 2008, 01:47:04 AM
If you didn't have to make thousands of weapons to get to a decent level, you wouldn't need so much ore at a time.  There was a reason crafters took so much at a time.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: KoboldMafia on June 30, 2008, 03:38:43 AM
reduce the amount of exp required to lvl up then.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: failed.bard on June 30, 2008, 03:59:46 AM
reduce the amount of exp required to lvl up then.

They apparently upped the amount you get per success, and you still need to make thousands of weapons, or hundreds of armours.

What needs to be done, is make the manufacture multi stage, needing a success for every ingredient in it, and giving XP for every success along the way.  Then something like a suit of full plate would truly be an accomplishment, especially with the buffs gone.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Zarathustra217 on June 30, 2008, 05:23:52 AM
Easy now...

A lot of the concerns brought up in the latest posts has already been explained a few pages ago. Yes, it needs to be tweaked, but the positive aspects remain (for those of you who've forgot, refer to the first pages of this topic). It's overboard to simply label the entire system as flawed. Let's try to get back to a sober discussion.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Nightmare on June 30, 2008, 09:55:41 AM
Agreed.

This is getting to be a rather virulent discussion. I personally do not mind the script, but that might be because half of my characters are fighter-tank types >.>

Anyways, I have yet to test the system out myself but I think that the main complaints about the system would be that, the distance is too short for travel time. Maybe increasing the distance that you are able to traverse before collapsing from sheer exhaustion, or inserting some kind of fatigue script to drain a CON point if they 'push' themselves.

Either way, I have yet to experience the system myself, so I cannot really give criticism to it. I do like the idea though.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Badbelly on June 30, 2008, 12:08:15 PM
In R/L, gurneys are used to carry the injured/dead. Perhaps we can have them as well? alot easier to drag on body suspended on two poles behind you then over your shoulder.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Iconoclast on June 30, 2008, 12:40:15 PM
I think the ooc frustration that has given this thread some heat has resulted from players feeling that the relationship between 'realism' and 'fantasy game' isn't what it should be, based on their experiences as players in game.  I'd also caution to expressing too much passion though in posts, since there will always be folks in every pw community who will disagree on what the relationship or balance ought to be between 'realism' and 'fantasy.'  So share your experience and post feedback as neutrally as possible, though at the same time, when players' frustrations are peaking through, give a little room since the frustration is also due to the fact that they are the ones who may be experiencing the systems day after day.

I think players see that an effort was made to use a system to fix a problem with crafters, but has resulted in a lot of time being devoted in game to players trying to overcome a death situation.  One could argue that not being able to carry a body down the mountain, could also foster some role play.  But that form of argument, while looking good, can't be sufficient.  The amount of ooc time a player has when logging in is a crucial factor I believe to balancing a game.  The time needed to run down a mountain such as Ghakis, which is gigantic, and the time it would take to find a cleric or a strenght buiild to come back to tend to the fallen, while perhaps fostering some nice role play, also brings things to a hault, and also can be very time consuming.  The str needed in the new system to carry a corpse might also leave out all the other role playing options.  In Shady's situation, his fighter build was the one to die, and even though he had companions with them, they could not use their combined strength to carry his body down the mountain.  We've seen it movies probably, where someone rigs up something to drag a body behind them. 

Could there be an item that could be specifically used to drag someone or something behind them?  I gues the issue then might be couldn't someone drag ore behind them, and maybe one the purposes of the new system was to limit the amount of ore to slow down the pace of crafters mastering their trade. 

Well, I'm confident Soren and the Dev Team will work something out to help ease the players' frustrations they're experiencing when it comes to trying to carry corpses. 

 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Ellana Twiggy on June 30, 2008, 01:55:29 PM
indeed, this is why there is a dev team.   :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: dutchy on June 30, 2008, 03:37:18 PM
cant you think of somthing else to make crafters craft less like   heretic said reduce the amount of ore .

that way not every one gets a bullet, but just to those who it whas intended for.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: dutchy on June 30, 2008, 05:25:09 PM
....also if the dead bodies do get reduced......make women and men difrant wiegths?   i mean a lass doesnt way as much as a lad mostly
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: ethinos on June 30, 2008, 05:34:36 PM
I'm pretty sure the bodies won't be reduced, as they've been increased in the not to distant past. Also, I do believe race, and gender are already taken into account when body weights are considered. The last female halfling I came across was only like 50 pounds. I could've put her in a pocket and forgotten about her.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Ellana Twiggy on June 30, 2008, 06:06:56 PM
heh, the last hin i picked up. . .about a week or so ago. . .weighed 220 lbs.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: ethinos on June 30, 2008, 06:57:35 PM
heh, the last hin i picked up. . .about a week or so ago. . .weighed 220 lbs.

The only thing that should weigh that much is a male half-orc/caliban.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Ryltar/ Robert Archer on June 30, 2008, 07:22:11 PM
heh, the last hin i picked up. . .about a week or so ago. . .weighed 220 lbs.

The only thing that should weigh that much is a male half-orc/caliban.

true but did that halfing got full plate armor on? and does it also take into account there pack of things they carry?
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: ethinos on June 30, 2008, 07:31:37 PM
Doesn't matter, and no it doesn't, so be glad for that at least. :lol:
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: EO on June 30, 2008, 07:36:46 PM
Yeah, if things were overtly realistic, you'd be tugging 200-300 pounds of gear along with that fighter.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Serevain on June 30, 2008, 10:21:29 PM
Yeah, and your bag would have 'bout... 10 squares. What fun.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Lyrithean on June 30, 2008, 11:15:24 PM
lol.. actually I'd love to see containers that only fit certain things.. like quivers that only fit arrows, a scabbard only big enough for a sword but only takes up maybe 2 slots..
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Iconoclast on July 01, 2008, 05:19:49 AM
Was with a corpse, standing in waist high water, and the message said, at least I think, that I had to rest before being able to move.  So I had to rest under water oddly enough, since moving to the side out of the water wasn't possible due to being stuck.  Icly, it didn't make sense that without any warning you can't move.  I'm sure a point comes where one can't move, but you sense it coming with fatigue, and in that  situation in the scrag cave, icly Nell would have dragged the corpse out of the water to the ledge, but was forced to rest in the water so as to then move.

Just a wierd a situation.



Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Zarathustra217 on July 01, 2008, 05:33:41 AM
In your case, Icono, you could have dropped the corpse and should then have been able to move.

Either way, I've been revising the system. You'll now get an encumbrance score that's reset every rest and the immobility won't kick in before reaching a score of 10. The system checks once every minute, and if your encumbrance is more than twice what you can normally carry unencumbered, you'll get a point. If you have more than thrice what you can normally carry, you'll get two points - four times, three points etc. You'll get messages as you are gradually feeling exhausted.

This also means that you will be able to walk around as long as you like heavily encumbered as long as you don't get above the two-times your normal to heavy encumbrance limit, which is considerably higher. You'll also be able to walk around ten minutes within the two to three times normal encumbrance range. It should be much more lenient.

You'll see the changes as per next update, than I'm uploading at the moment.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: Arch_Angel00 on July 01, 2008, 10:44:10 AM
heh, the last hin i picked up. . .about a week or so ago. . .weighed 220 lbs.

The only thing that should weigh that much is a male half-orc/caliban.

I weighed 217lbs when I checked myself at the gym last night, and I am definitely no half-orc.


But yeah, for the halflings, I figured they would be <100lbs.
Title: Re: New heavy encumbrance system.
Post by: ThAnswr on July 01, 2008, 11:13:29 AM
heh, the last hin i picked up. . .about a week or so ago. . .weighed 220 lbs.

The only thing that should weigh that much is a male half-orc/caliban.

I weighed 217lbs when I checked myself at the gym last night, and I am definitely no half-orc.


But yeah, for the halflings, I figured they would be <100lbs.

Quote from Ruxandra after an adventure in the werewolf caves where 2 hins died (Nonna & Loudo) and she was carrying them out: 

"What are they feeding these hins?"   :lol: