Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Nefensis on June 24, 2008, 05:33:47 PM
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Hey i liked the idea, very much liked it, until it came true.
Now i see how nigh impossible with the -5 it will be for new crafters to even get anywhere.
Suggestion
1- Remove the system as it makes it extremely hard for beginers
2- Remove the -5 to new recipes
3- Addition of new items to give a slight bonus with crafting. (Recipe book, smith's hammer, curing knife, stirring spoon etc)
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Tie in the Character sheet Crafting skills, Add a Feat or a Background that gives you a boost, Recipe Items in game. Lot of little fixes which all would be good.
But leave the buffs out. 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration. Leave in the -5 because THAT, gets rid of the Fly by Night crafters that aren't serious about the trade anyway from an RP perspective, they just want the game engine effects of the results of the trade.
~Rex
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Tie in the Character sheet Crafting skills, Add a Feat or a Background that gives you a boost, Recipe Items in game. Lot of little fixes which all would be good.
Either one would work yes. Either the -5 has to go or some kind of bonus needs to be given or then it's overly difficult for everyone, even for those that rp being blacksmith student for years.
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I don't know. I started out with only +2 due to stats on herbalism, and I still managed to make the DC 15 potions.
I don't see a problem. It only takes one lucky success before you can start churning out potions in mass quantities.
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I don't remember -5 modifiers in smithing, but I do remember when I started that even copper daggers were hard to make with any kind of accuracy. And that was only after watching a bunch of smelting going horribly wrong before I started getting successes in making even the ingots. At least you don't have a second craft tied in like the other crafts do.
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Every craft, until you have made something the first time, i.e. an iron chain shirt, there is a -5 dc to the check, once you have succeeded it is no longer there. Buffs would essentially allow you to bypass that, but so does having the right stats. I personally like the change, it will encourage people with the appropriate "talent" to go into suitable crafts instead of people with good buffs. Might encourage more balanced builds. People also seem to be forgetting that crafting levels will eventually allow you to overcome any of these hurdles including bad stats, it just requires more dedication and perhaps resourcefulness.
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Yep. Stuff I used to be able to craft Smith wise without failure, now I have a chance of failure again as it took away 5 points. Which is silly in my opinion because the older crafters don't just forget how to make what they've been making :P
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But when those old crafters are using buffs to cancel out their growing infirmity and frequent arthritis, I'm not surprised that they suddenly have a tougher time when the buffs no longer work. :lol:
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Yep. Stuff I used to be able to craft Smith wise without failure, now I have a chance of failure again as it took away 5 points. Which is silly in my opinion because the older crafters don't just forget how to make what they've been making :P
There should not be a -5 if you have made something once already.
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The problem is that both new changes clash with each other, carry less ore = less chances to try, more trips, less time to craft = frustration.
More accurate augmentation like backgrounds and feats or items is what's really needed here.
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The problem is that both new changes clash with each other, carry less ore = less chances to try, more trips, less time to craft = frustration.
More accurate augmentation like backgrounds and feats or items is what's really needed here.
Smithing certainly looks to be in danger. Unless you are rich and can hire a team. Maybe this will give pause to the thought of revising the values of crafted goods with npc merchants since more people will be needed to actually complete the process, or new crafters will get discouraged and abandon the idea, hard to say at this point. No doubt about it though, smithing in particular and crafting in general got harder. Time will tell if it is a bad thing or not.
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Except that there's the serious problem that new crafters will never want to bother with the system since the old crafters had things so jolly-olly-smooth.
I wonder how many of our oldest crafters (the ones that didn't have to deal with the -5 penalty for receipes, and these two newest changes) would have bothered with crafting. I seem to recall playing James and having a good number of crafters going "Come here and give me Empowered buffs to help me carry this stuff and actually pass the DCs" in tells. :roll:
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Alright, it must be tested before judged.
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Smithing nor any other crafting is in danger. Let's not overreact here. There will be a shortage, maybe, but people fill those niches. When Dorin and Torgan went poof, other smiths came along. And others are still learning despite the -5 disadvanatage.
As for the old smiths doing it without the "easyness" of the old system, I can speak for myself and say I'm willing to try. After all, Claire was only buffed once for leatherworking (Liam), and she had to relearn leatherworking twice since she had to be remade twice due to some silly bug. And if leatherworking taught me anything it was patience.
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Agreed Delph, I am learning it as we speak, got in at the wrong time, but I don't intend to give up, I will adapt. Expect price increases though, though that might be a good thing too.
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Except that there's the serious problem that new crafters will never want to bother with the system since the old crafters had things so jolly-olly-smooth.
Honestly, this is probably a good thing. The only thing keeping hordes of crafters from populating the server was the immense amount of time and money it often took to actually get good at it. If everyone is a smith, suddenly being a smith doesn't mean much. Only the truly dedicated should be able to master a trade. This is how it is in real life, and I think we are still trivializing the trades in game. I mean look at herbalism. Suddenly everyone was doing it, when in reality it should be a rare occurrence when you come across an herbalist.
I wonder how many of our oldest crafters (the ones that didn't have to deal with the -5 penalty for receipes, and these two newest changes) would have bothered with crafting.
They could've doubled the amount of CXP per level, or made me haul ore one at a time, and I'd still have gone through with it. I'm stubborn like that. (It must be the 1/8th Danish decent in me.) Getting through smithing is really hard, and you really must be dedicated. The higher levels of smithing and all the levels in gilding are horrendously expensive and you really must work to get good at it. Anyone on that path already, and staying true to it, won't allow something like this to keep them from mastering the craft.
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heh, Crafting is way easier then when my PC , Liam, learned. When he got most of his levels, xp for crafting was a mere fraction of what it is now. I think the new system is still a lot easier even with the changes.
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All I know is that I won't be learning smithing again with other PC's
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All I know is that I won't be learning smithing again with other PC's
Without the implementation of new bonus through backgrounds, it'll be nigh impossible for new PCs to begin a craft. If a PC is clearly decided to devote his time to a craft, he should take skills for it and be rewarded for it.
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All I know is that I won't be learning smithing again with other PC's
Without the implementation of new bonus through backgrounds, it'll be nigh impossible for new PCs to begin a craft. If a PC is clearly decided to devote his time to a craft, he should take skills for it and be rewarded for it.
Copper dagger is DC 15. Stats can offset the -5 modifier without buffs. Further crafting systems are far faster in gaining crafting levels comparitively. It's not "nigh impossible". One must do the time. Nothing more.
heh, Crafting is way easier then when my PC , Liam, learned. When he got most of his levels, xp for crafting was a mere fraction of what it is now. I think the new system is still a lot easier even with the changes.
Badbelly is 100% correct. Comparitively to the Daev, Yoshinaka, Dorin, Torgan, and Toli days of smithing the system is far faster to gain cxp.
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terrible moan, get over it really. so what if you cant use buffs to craft anymore, thats not the end of the world.
now you have reason to focus on the craft that best suits your talents, instead of trying to do all. now you have real good reason to start crafters hub where different people with rreal different talents have a purpose.
as mentioned, it is not impossible, it just takes time and dedication. i do not craft at the moment becouse there is no craft that would suit me. but once enchanting and scribing comes, ill tackle those
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Right, good luck, We'll hear you moan then unless something else is added meanwhile to counter balance it.
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uh ok.. ?
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Lets keep this civil and less rude and unnecessary attacks hmm?
Keep it constructive.
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Amazing. I REALLY like, the fact that now people that have the dedication that is required for WORK, will now be rewarded for that dedication while not being crowded by people looking for something easy to benefit them mechanics wise. This new system will weed out the Chaff right off the bat and leave a core of dedicated crafters that will add Piles of depth to the unique RP of the server.
Losing the buffs does not make the Task unsurmountable. It makes it Work, instead of a Hand Out. Besides let's get down to the simple ROOT, of 90% of fantasy. The Guy that had a REAL job, became an Adventurer, because the Real JOB, was a JOB. Tedious, Tiresome, Annoying, Difficult. You don't want to dedicate yourself to crafting, go gather, go adventure.
Current system Rocks. Nothing worthwhile, is ever given, it's Earned.
~Rex
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For some reason, I'm very worried after Rex's comment.
Rex actually LIKED something? Backup all our characters somewhere!!!
The only thing I can comment on is: I had a tanner, and used to ultra buff him, and he became very good very fast. It still took me a great amount of time
though. And in the end I decided even that wasn't worth it, seeing as how I lost all the levels in a remake and I couldn't care less.
But I also think the new system is better. I like how if you do one thing over and over, you become really good at it.
And yeah: backgrounds, skill points, something should be there to help.
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Here's something curious I found.
Gilding = int + con, right?
DC for gilding anything is 20, right?
So, take the -5 into account
unless you have a total combined int and con bonus of +5 it is impossible to succeed (at level 1 CR). Each failure costs 300 odd fang and is worth 5 CXP.
I can only say... Ouch. For Rane (con+int = 3 which is not terrible for a cleric who was designed to be a generalist) to even have a 5% success chance she needs 2 craft levels (technically one, since the first is free)
That means 200 failed attempts. Guaranteed. That's 60,000 fang.
Just putting it out there. If you ever want to gild get yourself 18 con and 18 Intel (+8, 20% chance of success at CR level 1) or it's going to take RL years.
Yes, it has pretty much crippled my chars plans and RP.
Needless to say, even thinking of gilding saps the fun from my very soul right now. Yes, I am going to keep smithing. No, I'm not going to gild. Yes, I may find someone to do the gilding for me and have Rane starve to death in a street somewhere... actually... *makes a note of that plot line* Anyway.
Rant of bitterness over.
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//So bitter to even blow Sedrik off!
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My dwarf paladin had been learning to smith without buffs, even without these changes. Losing the buffs will drop Wilhelm backa little because he'll fail a little more on the steel armours he's making, but since he's not onto half and full plates yet the failures are all cheap.
Logging out in Dvergeheim with 500 pounds of steel ore before the changes will make the trip to vallaki more interesting though.
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Think it's a step in the good direction. Although it might need some revision. For example the silver gilding is probably too hard now, as there are very few characters with high int/con. A good idea might be some in-game recipes ect, maybe handed out by DMs after proper rp with master artisans (npc/pc) that a give small bonus to some of the crafts that suffer.
Keeping buffs out of the process is a good one. Maybe it makes crafting harder, but it also makes much sense, to me at least.
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The logic doesn't make sense. If you buff someone's strength, they can carry more and do more damage, but they're hammer to an anvil does not change.
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If we have to keep things like this though, there needs to be something to counter-balance. Skills/Feats/Tools.
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Buff durations, even extended, are far less than the time needed to realistically make many of the items, and some of the buffing that was being done was of the sort that would have been entirely counter-productive, like Rex's oft mention rage fuelled smelting. It's a small inconvenience, but only sets you back 3-4 days if you're serious about the craft you're doing.
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Well now you're contradicting yourself. If we're trying to go for "Realism", then why are all the craft process done so quickly? You're saying that if I take a level 10 caster and use extended buffs (26 minutes), it's less time than it would take to craft items realistically, except that in 26 minutes, my herbalist could make 50+ potions, and I know blacksmiths could have a full batch of smelted goods in that time limit as well.
If you want to do 'realism', then you'd have to make crafting times last a hell of a lot longer than they currently do.
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Well Im not sure if one can talk about realism and NWN in the same sentence anyway... :ontome:
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The logic doesn't make sense. If you buff someone's strength, they can carry more and do more damage, but they're hammer to an anvil does not change.
Saying one blacksmith is stronger than another, and that makes him a better blacksmith is also silly. In crafts, experience and natural talent play a bigger role that the person's attributes. Besides, after you get past level 15 or so in any craft, your crafting levels start becoming a bigger factor than your attributes anyways in the successful completion of goods.
Torgan's smithing is in the mid-high 40s. His +5 from his attributes is almost meaningless at that point.
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The logic doesn't make sense. If you buff someone's strength, they can carry more and do more damage, but they're hammer to an anvil does not change.
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If we have to keep things like this though, there needs to be something to counter-balance. Skills/Feats/Tools.
DnD people bring that up all the time. Ask ANY real metal worker, especially those still in the trade of blades. It has NOTHING, to do with how hard you Hit a piece of Work, it's in How, and what. To Much Power can easily destroy even a Horse Shoe fitting much less a Sword.
Smiths tended to be big and burly not so much from the constant pounding on things with hammers, most of which are rather small (did 4 summers in a forge), It's the working of the Bellows and the Hauling of the raw Supplies and Stock that made for the "legendary" brawn of the smith.
Also, the Greatest Novels dealing with Magical Swords, EVER, Involves a Mortal and A GOD. Casters didn't Rate. Skill was needed, the real deal not the FAKED stuff.
~Rex
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Let's give these threads a rest, Soren is working on the system.
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Here is an idea BUT it does require a DM... AND assumes that while Spell Buffs don't work, DM buffs do. If DM buffs don't work then remaking PC's with Crafting levels is impossible.
If you are STRUGGLING to make your first potion, Suit of Plate or Gild your first sword, how about have a 'Master' do some RP with you with a wee bit of supervision from the DM... the DM then gives a +5 stat buff for one or two attempts... negating the -5 for a brief period.
It gives Masters some value.
Once again, it assumes that GM buffs do work. If they don't then you may also want to look at certain races that get an IN game adjustment (ie some elves get an Int bonus of 2 but it doesnt reflect in earned skill points or spell slots)
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Here is an idea BUT it does require a DM... AND assumes that while Spell Buffs don't work, DM buffs do. If DM buffs don't work then remaking PC's with Crafting levels is impossible.
If you are STRUGGLING to make your first potion, Suit of Plate or Gild your first sword, how about have a 'Master' do some RP with you with a wee bit of supervision from the DM... the DM then gives a +5 stat buff for one or two attempts... negating the -5 for a brief period.
It gives Masters some value.
Once again, it assumes that GM buffs do work. If they don't then you may also want to look at certain races that get an IN game adjustment (ie some elves get an Int bonus of 2 but it doesnt reflect in earned skill points or spell slots)
I think they can modify your base stat if they have to.
I do think there should be a system in place where it adds half or a quarter of the crafting level of a second character clicked on the work station, to reflect mentoring and helpers. Nothing beyond a second person though, the old "Too many cooks" principle.
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Here is an idea BUT it does require a DM... AND assumes that while Spell Buffs don't work, DM buffs do. If DM buffs don't work then remaking PC's with Crafting levels is impossible.
If you are STRUGGLING to make your first potion, Suit of Plate or Gild your first sword, how about have a 'Master' do some RP with you with a wee bit of supervision from the DM... the DM then gives a +5 stat buff for one or two attempts... negating the -5 for a brief period.
It gives Masters some value.
Once again, it assumes that GM buffs do work. If they don't then you may also want to look at certain races that get an IN game adjustment (ie some elves get an Int bonus of 2 but it doesnt reflect in earned skill points or spell slots)
I'll Trump that. Code a small Charged Item, of various levels (+1, +2, +3, +4, +5), that a master can REWARD a student with. More RP tools less "I was a Smith for 56 years before the mists sucked me up!" *starts trying to boss the Master Smiths around*
~Rex
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anyone tried crafting while polymorphed yet?
ps: I know smiths cant smith while polymorphed, but everything else should work with the enhanced attributes that seem to be inherent and not buffs.
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You can't use items while polymorphed, so you can't craft. Tried it to see if it needed to be pointed out as an exploit, since I was hauling ore in umber hulk for to the smelter anyways.