Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Nefensis on June 24, 2008, 05:30:36 PM
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From what i understand you cannot walk overencumbered for a long time anymore without resting. Now speaking from experience, Roland took up crafting with his 19 str and even then i was overly encumbered after 20 piece of ore. Since there is no system to hire donkeys or npcs to help you carry this crap up, i think the half an hour it took me to get from the copper seems to the mine was enough of a drawback without on top of that having to waste a rest.
Suggestions:
1- Remove the new system, very unwieldy and gives hell to crafters on top of everything else.
2- Donkey merchants. Purchase donkeys (bags with 100% weight reduction) that will last up to 1 irl hour before disapearing from your inventory.
(i personaly love the donkey idea)
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I know I wouldn't like to see the donkey disappear with ore in its inventory...
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True, i guess could it be possible to have the donkeys drop the ore in the inventory when they dissipate?
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I've got to test this one out yet but if it's In Line with what one gets as info from the encumbrance rules of the books, then I am All For it.
~Rex
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Hire Sedrik. He can carry the world.
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Gotta figure, a smith loaded with ore wont be able to cross the dwarven smithy without resting twice, drop the ore you say? Right,with how long it took to get it all here, not gonna let a server crash make it all go away.
Im not a big fan of the idea altogether.
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If you save your character while you're holding the ore, you won't be losing anything.
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Thats the point, if you put it down so you can walk inside the smithy, you can lose it with a crash. If you keep it on you, walking across the smithy requires 2 rests
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I like this system I think.
~Rex
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Eh, when doing leatherworking, I already used to hire low level PC's to get the hides for me. I guess if I need to do some heavy smelting/smithing, I'll hire some day labor to haul my ore for me.
Likely, I'll whack the ore veins, and have them take the ore back, 10 at a time or whatever.
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I think a lot of you are under the impression that we are an MMORPG with 100+ players, giving plenty of room for all crafters to have their own pack-mule PCs.
We don't.
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I'm under no such impression, and have never lacked in the ability to find cheap labor. In fact, I'd promote this kind of system, since crafting is such a lonely and isolated deal.
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If such a system was implemented, the donkey-bags should not be 100% weight reduction, as that would more or less return things to the old system, in which crafters carried insane amounts of components. Donkey's should have a weight limit. They're donkeys not a storage compartment. The idea of renting Donkey-bags is to work around the problem of not having an actual donkey follow us. 80% weight reduction sounds more than reasonable to me.
And I agree with ethnios. I'd prefer people doing carrying stuff. Could start a delivery system for lowbies or anyone regardless of level or place ads in the market district.
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It promotes partying over soloing, and that is never a bad thing. You want to go and clean the coal mines out of coal? Fine, but if you want to be able to carry it out you'd better have friends and/or hired help.
I bench press almost 300 pounds, and from what I'm told this is well above average. And there's no way in hell I could carry 1500 pounds of anything on my shoulders for more than a step or two. I wouldn't be able to drag it either without resting every little bit. What would I do if I had to lift something heavy like that, move it, and a forklift wasn't available? I'd call friends.
Plain and simple, Party Up.
I like the system.
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Im already having enough problems finding people to gather herbs for me, even by paying them as much as i possibly can afford for a non farming character. I think to an extend it'll promote farming to gather money to pay people to do half your job. I like the idea of crafting being semi solo with the supplying from other people, A box full of herbs is easy enough to carry around (about 12lbs) but there's 20 potions, 12 lbs is 2 chunks of ore = 1 sword.
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Once the system has had a chance to walk its legs, then the feedback based on the experience folks are having with the system will have more value than feedback only on the idea of the new system.
In the meantime, there are rp options to look into. The Church of Ezra values silver for obvious reasons, so if someone wants to go mine in the Silver Mines, see if an expedition can be arranged.
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I have a feeling smithing/smelting is likely the biggest trade affected by the new changes. Granted, I've mastered it and likely won't have to try and do full hauls of ore any more unless something special comes up. But considering that you can get iron one level down, or at worst, two levels down, all this means is that you are making more frequent trips if you don't hire help.
Sure, you either pay folks to keep at the regular place of smithing/smelting, or you do it solo and not quite as fast. Still, magic bags will double the amount of ore you can haul. Invest in some. This isn't a game breaking change.
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As a crafter who mines ore (for arrow/bolt tips), i must say i love the changes. It never felt right carrying so much weight. I would RP dragging a sled behind me as a plausible reason but this alleviates that issue.
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It does make dragging BODIES, not ore, a problem as well.
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It does make dragging BODIES, not ore, a problem as well.
Repeat after me: "Magic bags, magic bags!"
Even the -20% bags will help with corpse moving. And be glad we don't have to actually lug around the character PLUS their entire inventory's weight. I'm sure between the corpse and his inventory, my dwarf weighs near 400 pounds all together.
But maybe Soren can implement a dismemberment script... :twisted:
Seriously though, dragging bodies should be a problem, and until now has been pretty much shrugged off. Adds another reason to not charge into battle foolishly. Your friends may just not bother lugging you back to town for that raise...
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But maybe Soren can implement a dismemberment script... :twisted:
:lol: :roll: :lol:
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After discussing with a few crafters it's not too hard to get around it. Keep a minimum of ore on yourself and when order comes around we'll go get whats needed at that moment. It's to get to that point that's going to be a pain.
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After discussing with a few crafters it's not too hard to get around it. Keep a minimum of ore on yourself and when order comes around we'll go get whats needed at that moment. It's to get to that point that's going to be a pain.
I keep a bag of coal, and just get the iron on demand. The only ingots I usually hold on to are silver, and then no more than 5 or so at a time, and stored in a -60% bag so that's only about 11 pounds. If I'm doing a bunch of running around collecting materials (oak, silver, steel, and hides for example) expect an additional surcharge, because sometimes that can take nearly a full RL hour collecting crap.
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alright, the encumberance system needs fixed, this is rediculous when I am tryign to carry people out of a dungeon doing fine, and then all of a sudden i can't walk, and sense the creatures follow through transitions now, i die because i am trying to escape. nwn has a walking encumberance system for a reason. heck, you can pull several hundred pounds behind you in reality, why can't i drag my party members out of a dungeon with out getting half way out then all of a sudden for some reason I can't move and get killed by the five million things which followed me up through transitions and more?
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I agree.. with the system, I also agree with Ric tho.
We don't have 1000 players, to choose from... people are doing there own thing 80% of the time.
Edit: Also looks like instead of the pain, of dragging him back... clerics are going to making errands around the server for raises. :lol:
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This new system is going to require us all to come up with new strategies and techniques for some of the things we took for granted. Give it time, as changes always have growing pains associated with them.
And in a near TPK (total party kill) scenario, you may now actually need to raise a new group to rescue the old ones.
Honestly, one of the silliest things I ever saw was when I was with a group of 6 or 7 calibans, and only the wizard lived. Grabbed 6 corpses or so, single-handedly, and walked us all back. This new system prevents that from happening. (Come to think of it, I might've been the wizard too...)
Last edit, I swear:
I've watched, and read through the archives about a lot of major changes that this server has went through over the course of its life. From new rest systems, to new death systems, to nerfs, and more. Almost 99% of them receive major negative feedback, but after a few weeks everyone was used to the new systems and stopped making complaints because they weren't as much of a nuisance as originally thought.
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ok lets role play here.
bob,joe,and curtis go to a dungeon last map big guy kill bob and curtis
joe cant carry them both...so one has to be left behind, mind you once trough the portal he cant return he has to do the whole dungeon AGAIN to retrieve the one he left behind.
poeple dont have the time to deal with these things like this some do but not everyone.
and in reality i can drag a few corpses not carry but sure can dragg....wait its a game theres no dragg option.......a game.......game engine......feth forgot this aint PnP were subjecated to what the engine can handle, yes theres always some stuff beeing sleazy most folks look the same due to the head models......everyone is as tall as the other, names flaoting above heads, truly theres no realistic game and this cant be made into one, now alot is made and added nicely and balanced well, but this freeze cause your to heavy is just kicking a man when hes down already.
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The salvation of people will be a harder task now, since no 2 characters can carry the death weight of one person together, nor actually drag it.
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Bring a 4th, high strength man to stand by as an emergency body grabber. :P
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mind you once trough the portal he cant return he has to do the whole dungeon AGAIN to retrieve the one he left behind.
The dungeon doesn't respawn the instant you leave it. Chances are, you have plenty of time to grab several members of your party before it maybe respawns, at a lower level than you originally went in.
Bring a 4th, high strength man to stand by as an emergency body grabber. :P
More reasons to bring a fighter along? Rex will like that.
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yes well i can carry 233 total use bags i can carry 2 people. do we want a flood of str based chars or a mixture of str dexers for the mining?
orrrrrrrrrrrrr do we want diversety? nobody wants more then one rogue hell opena box thats all they good for strong hulks we want yes cause they can do a good punch AND dragg bodies.
i wanna know who thought of this and WHY
bags work i agree, you payin? easy to talk if you mastered your crafts already and are above 400lbs.
also explain how lowbies can farm ore for you
lvl 2 doesnt have that much lbs choice............here 16 ore pieces as you asked for
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my lv 2 tribal barbarian i made to aid sivius in ore carrying can carry *peep*loads of ore before he gets encumbered. and unana knows, whenever he needs ore he can just send me a tell and my tribal comes running, he is so simple that he works for food
i dont see what the problem here is, you people are bitching over nothing
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Last edit, I swear:
I've watched, and read through the archives about a lot of major changes that this server has went through over the course of its life. From new rest systems, to new death systems, to nerfs, and more. Almost 99% of them receive major negative feedback, but after a few weeks everyone was used to the new systems and stopped making complaints because they weren't as much of a nuisance as originally thought.
:thumbup:
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i dont see what the problem here is, you people are bitching over nothing
Dont need this kind of comments, really dont.
Anyways, i dont feel like making min max chars to beat the system, i'd rather have some new scripts (dont smite me Soren) to make the system more balanced in -realism- if that is what we're trying to mimic here.
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well yeah that comment was perhaps too extreme. but, you dont need min/max chars :D just few willing to make a mule character. i dont think thats really forbidden. like slaves or something :D
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Anyone making a char to hold crap for you, aka stand in the smithy and log when your buddy smithy needs it, is a mule, it shouldnt be legit.
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whenever he needs ore he can just send me a tell and my tribal comes running, he is so simple that he works for food
Lmfao, I thought of that in my head.. and I laughed quite hard. I unno why...
Back on topic...
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then i suppose crafter are stuck to haul the ore back to smithy by themselfs. thought i dont see anything wrong in a ore carrying pc that works for the smith. theres rp involved, and the orecarrier wont hold anything to the smith once he is gone, he just gets hired by the smith to carry stuff from mine to smith
its same as the smith pc goes to outskirts and hires 5 pc's with medium str to carry the ore for him. they get paid and they get to rp. its same as the current trend of people gathering herbs for the herbalists. herbalists log off sometimes and herb gatherers still have herbs in their bags.. aka .. muling... am i wrong ?
if that herb gathering for herbalists is wrong, then perhaps it should stop also
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An IC Mule and Muling are two different things. If a person chooses to make a PC to be a mule or slave for a crafter that is not against the rules so long as there is roleplay behind the character and not just login, carry/hold, logout.
Lets try and keep this all constructive hmm? Development is going to skim through complaints, and look for constructive ideas. :)
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I’ve experienced on myself how the new system can be annoying dragging a corpse BUT:
1) It makes people more and more scared to die in a dungeon and be more careful in that -> good
2) It makes people avoiding to drag in themselves “their full home” like a turtle in the shell -> good
3) It creates a new regular job for some low level characters helping in deliveries -> good
And at any rate, with the new system of rest, you can rest after like 1 hour meaning 6 minutes and it’s not a long time.
In spite of that, I must admit also that it could be found a compromise way like the idea suggested by Nefensis about the donkey or some small wagon since I’ve never figured a miner with all the bags on himself going out from a mine, without a sort of help of that kind. I guess something might be done. Anyway let’s wait for more feedback.
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I think the idea of having other people help you carrying stuff is a very good one and also realistic.
You will more likely party up with people -----> good
The system might be annoying at a first glance, but it has great advantages IMO over a long run, which have already been mentioned.
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I get the impression this stuff starts taking effect as soon as you become heavily encumbered. My suggestion is based on that understanding...
I think this should take place PAST becoming heavily encumbered. I think this should be the third stage of encumberance: so bad you can't move.
You become encumbered after you exceed your weight capacity W. You become heavily encumbered after you exceed 3W/2. I think this stop moving stuff should happen after you exceed 2W, twice your weight capacity. I think that would allow it act as more of a feature than a "weight nerf".
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I like it so far. Will have more thoughts on it when I get back from the convention and settled into the new job.
~Rex
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I get the impression this stuff starts taking effect as soon as you become heavily encumbered. My suggestion is based on that understanding...
I think this should take place PAST becoming heavily encumbered. I think this should be the third stage of encumberance: so bad you can't move.
You become encumbered after you exceed your weight capacity W. You become heavily encumbered after you exceed 3W/2. I think this stop moving stuff should happen after you exceed 2W, twice your weight capacity. I think that would allow it act as more of a feature than a "weight nerf".
This is not a bad idea at all mate - nice
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Ok... this is my situation as of this moment.
Took on some resources, became heavily encumbered and unable to move.
I then buffed... not encumbered, still unable to move.
Is this how it's meant to work? If so... that's 2 Game hours of sitting around that can't be avoided if you've rested recently.
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Try dropping a single item after you've buffed then pick it back up.
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Last edit, I swear:
I've watched, and read through the archives about a lot of major changes that this server has went through over the course of its life. From new rest systems, to new death systems, to nerfs, and more. Almost 99% of them receive major negative feedback, but after a few weeks everyone was used to the new systems and stopped making complaints because they weren't as much of a nuisance as originally thought.
So let me if I understand this:
1) Major changes are made in the hopes of getting chars to play the game the way the PTB think the game should be played.
2) Players complain
3) Players get used to new changes, but basically their game hasn't changed
4) Back to point #1
I've been here nearly over a year. I haven't seen any of the "major" changes make a bit of difference to how people play the game. Dungeoners dungeon, adventurers adventure, fighters fight, casters cast, BS'ers BS ................. so what's the point?
Maybe the point here is that people will play their game the way they want and not the way someone else thinks they should play their game no matter how hard they're "guided".
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What about all those poor Vardo Traders, carrying around everything that you might buy. Breaking their backs for you.
But nooo, nobody doesn't even think about that!
Self-centered bunch of corpse haulers and cave diggers!
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Last edit, I swear:
I've watched, and read through the archives about a lot of major changes that this server has went through over the course of its life. From new rest systems, to new death systems, to nerfs, and more. Almost 99% of them receive major negative feedback, but after a few weeks everyone was used to the new systems and stopped making complaints because they weren't as much of a nuisance as originally thought.
So let me if I understand this:
1) Major changes are made in the hopes of getting chars to play the game the way the PTB think the game should be played.
2) Players complain
3) Players get used to new changes, but basically their game hasn't changed
4) Back to point #1
I've been here nearly over a year. I haven't seen any of the "major" changes make a bit of difference to how people play the game. Dungeoners dungeon, adventurers adventure, fighters fight, casters cast, BS'ers BS ................. so what's the point?
Maybe the point here is that people will play their game the way they want and not the way someone else thinks they should play their game no matter how hard they're "guided".
The server is in beta state. It's not finished yet, and probably will never be. Changes will be made, changes will be changed and perhaps those changes will be changed as well. It's a constant process of changes; balancing things out, implementing new systems, improving the atmosphere, improving realism, enhancing the roleplaying experience and many more changes. Just try to think progressive, instead of conservative, or sooner or later you'll loose your head.
Anyways, let's get back to the topic at hand. If you want to discuss the lack of effect of changes, open another thread if you wish so.
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The change is being discussed both ingame, on the forum, and in the OOC areas.
The effect or lack thereof regading this change in relation to the effects of the other changes is most certainly part of the discussion.
And motion isn't progress.
I'll get off the soapbox.
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I'm going to do more testing tomorrow, but it does seem like there's going to need to be some tweaking done. WIll post suggestions/observations once I've seen it in play a little more.
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well, now that i've taken a breather, the encumbrance system is a good idea I admit. But, practicality and sensibility are not in favor with game mechanics.
If I can carry a max of 200 lbs with an 18 str, i have 6 or so bags at 60%, and I still can't carry 2 corpses at 130 lbs or such because they put me 30lbs over the 200lb max then it seems kind of silly to me.
Monsters wont wait for the whole 3-5 seconds it takes to drop added weight so you can carry your companions to safety, where in reality you could instantly drop a large bag of junk if you needed to to move faster.
I spent a year and a half in iraq, and trust me, if you need to pick up your companion and run to move out of harm while you are already carrying 130 lbs of weapons and lead vest along with radio you move. It has very little to do with strength and more to do with the urgency of the situation. One can take care of their companions in situations when needed.
Shouldn't have to be sending tells to clerics around the server to help a party because everyone died due to encumbrance , nor have to try and find another group to come rescue the first, mainly because either way it leads to meta gaming.
Maybe if there was a "body bag" or something which could be used as a dragging cart for bodies, though I am not sure that that wouldn't be exploited for other uses as well. So, it brings into the picture, why not have horses and such available to carry things in situations like this? Cep 2 is in, so we have the capability, and it would make a practical sense now to have a pack horse or mule for such situations as death or mining, and would still keep it all ic.
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Bare in mind that carring two bodies is a massive feat and only the strongest should be able to handle that (since carrying one body is meant to be bloody hard)
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Bare in mind that carring two bodies is a massive feat and only the strongest should be able to handle that (since carrying one body is meant to be bloody hard)
I agree on this point, mechanic wise or not. Holding a body, fighting or doing anything other than simply moving them out of harms way is a tremendous feat, let alone carting two bodies... or more. Yet I also see the validity of Ellana's post, it will (while realistic) make more difficulty for those parties that succumb to issues of lag, bugged moments where the party is 75% wiped.
As for metagaming clerical aid, rescue parties and the sort, this already does go on. Considering that many players fear server crashes during these moments of death, most merely look hopefully at being cared for before these situations arise. Which can often lead to bugged corpses, removed corpses, loss of gear etcetera etcetera.
One can hope that the increased encumbrance ruling, might lead to smarter group compositions, less risky solo ventures into dangerous turf returning laden with loot alone, less odds that a greedy character/player will burden themselves with overlooting. It is something yet to be seen. I am neither ranting against the idea, but merely voicing my thoughts as to the pro's and cons that come to mind considering the styles of play and my limited knowledge of the NWN game mechanics.
*steps off the box*
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Of course I'm guessing due to the nature of the script,undead pc's will also find themselves getting tired. Is that true? because the dead aren't supposed to need to stop for breathers.
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Bare in mind that carring two bodies is a massive feat and only the strongest should be able to handle that (since carrying one body is meant to be bloody hard)
I agree, being a fire-fighter.. carrying a 170lb dummy out a house is, brutal.
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Of course I'm guessing due to the nature of the script,undead pc's will also find themselves getting tired. Is that true? because the dead aren't supposed to need to stop for breathers.
But their arms might snap off.
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Oh,Snap!
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well everyone says youl adapt and get used to it
been a few now just like to say i still dislike the system
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well everyone says youl adapt and get used to it
been a few now just like to say i still dislike the system
as someone whos got characters of varying str ranging form 6-15 unbuffed i got to say the system seems well balanced now since the new update. The points thing is a good step in the right direction, though the duration of as they tag on points i think needs to be increased just slightly. Otherwise its good
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Got to play with it a bit finally since I found a pile of dead bodies in the sewers. I like it. Bring on more stuff for it.
~Rex
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i haven't read the whole thread yet, but a few things to consider.
Encouraging team play is a good thing - nothing to say against that.
Smithing progress is slowed extremely and prices for weapons and armour will go up. Is that good?
Dungeoneering needs much more time now. One has to consider that a part of the party might die and has to be dragged out. That alone might take several hours, since now even more than before another party might be required to do that. I usually have only 2 hours per day, so i won't have much opportunity to visit dungeons any more.
A long time that's required for actions increases the risk of losing expensive weapons to server resets - with increasing prices, the effect on low level characters is devastating.
There will be many more effects, but until now i can see only one winner of the system. Really high-level smithies. Yes, they will need more time.
I'm playing DnD and other RPGs since the late 80s and i learned that an increase of realism in a system might increase the experience of some, but nearly always punishes those that do not have the time to play excessively.
A common problem in DnD is limitation of high level characters without kicking the low levels in the face.
Yes, as a limitation of high level characters the system might work. It depends on how hard you want low levels to pay for that limitation.
edit: my characters strength is just above average. if you focus your measures on str 18+, you do something wrong. with a regular capacity of 116 pounds, the basic equipment weighting about 70 pounds and without a place to leave stuff behind, even carrying one other character means that i am dead as well, since i have no way of running from danger any more. As soon as i have dropped my burden, i am close to death. Or, given the circumstances leading to the death of companions - i already was when i picked up the body.
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So don't pick up the body. Honestly I don't see what the big deal is, I have Next to no time to play and the more "realism" that's added the happier I am. It gives more reason for getting other people to go along.
I would like to see some sort of persistent storage though. Also another "realistic" thing, but I'm sure the detractors of Realism wouldn't circle their wagons against THAT.
~Rex
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****Changed my mind. Just isn't worth it****
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Permanent storage for PCs is not yet possible from what Soren explained many times.
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Permanent storage for PCs is not yet possible from what Soren explained many times.
Well post a link to one please.
Back to the topic though, My main PC's is incredibly weighed down by a lot of extraneous crap at the moment, and even hauling around a couple of dead bodies at a shamble, it wasn't that much of an issue for me, and yes, I was retreating from monsters at the time to (mobats).
I can See it screwing over a Spell Caster or a Dexer though but then, Checks and Balances. You guys get Dungeon Access. Big Fighter or Barbarian Guy gets to haul dead bodies around a touch easier. *shrug*
~Rex
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The storage idea was nixed due to it being a server wide limit of 100 items, if I remember right.
I think a fair compromise to the would be a 100% bag of holding that could only have things put into it/taken out using an option in the safe rest zone menus. Not entirely realistic, but unless it could be scripted to only open in one particular rest area it still seems fair.
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I don't foresee 100% bags ever going in. . .maybe making 80% findable some how would be nice, though I of course see such things poping up where they most likely would not be found.
Though, i foresee once the enchanting system is in place that most things which can be found will most likely become more scarce and you will have to seek a priest or mage to make your fine items and bags of holding.