Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: failed.bard on June 22, 2008, 05:13:14 AM
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Assuming I have all the numbers right here:
Camouflage is a first level and gives +10 to hide. One with the land is 2nd level and gives +4 to hide and move siletnly. These spells stack.
Clairaudience is 2nd level and gives +10 to search and listen. True seeing is 4th/5th and gives +10 to spot. These spells do not stack.
Why do the stealth spells stack, when the detections ones don't? Either both types should stack, or neither type.
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Assuming I have all the numbers right here:
Camouflage is a first level and gives +10 to hide. One with the land is 2nd level and gives +4 to hide and move siletnly. These spells stack.
Clairaudience is 2nd level and gives +10 to search and listen. True seeing is 4th/5th and gives +10 to spot. These spells do not stack.
Why do the stealth spells stack, when the detections ones don't? Either both types should stack, or neither type.
Hell, I'll be mean and just say it. Someone somewhere decided that Sneaks, should be undetectable. By any means.
I do like that I am not the only one that noticed the same thing. The Detection spells SHOULD stack, like the stealth spells. I wouldn't take away the stacking ability of the Stealth Spells because I am a firm believer in that Sneaks SHOULD be able to sneak.
That's one of the cool things about sneakery.
But the detection spells and Items should stack just as well.
~Rex
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My character Liam, has no issues detecting sneaks, I don't see where the problem is. If you wish to detect sneaks, you need only invest in the right skills and feats. Sytem is fine and should be left alone in my opinion.
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My character Liam, has no issues detecting sneaks, I don't see where the problem is. If you wish to detect sneaks, you need only invest in the right skills and feats. Sytem is fine and should be left alone in my opinion.
System is broken and it takes Broken Builds in order to counter it. If Sneak Stuff, Stacks, So should Detection Stuff. Plain and Simple.
~Rex
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For purpose of fairness i think they should stack, unless the spell description says clearly it dosnt. OR make one with the land not stackable with camouflage.
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since all players already get a d20 added to spot and the sneaker doesnt get the same to hide (due to bioware cock up) the unstacking of spells is a minor issue
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Agreed with Ren on this.. players only need invest in one skillset +d20 roll to counter the move/hide ability. Which means a sneak cannot sneak until at min 10th level (without any gear) even then they are still chance to be spotted by a player under 5th level with a lucky d20 roll. Consider this a anti-sneak character 1st level build can start the game with an effective 16 spot and law of averages will dictate the +10 on a d20 giving them an effective 26 spot chance at level 1. Bioware has made spotting sneaks broken, with a level one character capable of defeating a level 8-10 rogues sneakery (in theory, no gear straight stats). Sorry Rex, while on some level I agree with you, I think increasing the spotting ability in PoTM with the already generous background talents to giving 3-6 ranks in certain skillsets already defeats sneaks, forcing them to stack as many bonuses that they can in order just to be capable of sneaking.
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I seem to recall seeing more then a few d20 rolls pop up on my screen when sneaking with my sneak. If Stealth adders Stack, then so Should the search/Spot material unless, as pointed out, the spell specifically states that it doesn't stack. Sorry but like a few other people I'm tired of the Invisable man. My +22 spot Ranger, can't find the Stealth Guy of the same level standing next to him fully half the time.
~Rex
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since all players already get a d20 added to spot and the sneaker doesnt get the same to hide (due to bioware cock up) the unstacking of spells is a minor issue
You got any proof of that?
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Ask any DM Ethinos. I already have and yes they get it. It's not presented in the CL. I had a 34 hide at 7th level and a level one player with a 14 spot saw me. I was told he made a 20 on his spot check roll (which is not shown in the logs, much the same as how the search rolls are hidden).
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On rare occasions I have seen the opposing Hide/MS rolls of PCs versus my PC on the right window. It only did them when I was near Radu and opened the door of the Lady's Rest, but what archonzero says is right. DC is set as d20 + opposing PC's Spot/Listen ranks vs. your Hide/MS ranks (no +d20 there).
You can also see the d20 + Spot/Listen Ranks vs player's Hide/MS ranks when you sneak pass monsters.
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Can Soren fix something like this, so that its a proper opposed roll? Because the server isn't balanced, and favors sneakers. Not only that, but "casual" sneaky folks are wasting skill ranks (and sometimes at cross-skill costs).
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Camouflage also stacks with Mass Camouflage and both stack with One With the Land providing a total of +24 to Hide and +4 to Move Silently skills.
Mass Camouflage is a 4th level spell and requires 15 Ranger levels or a Rogue with decent Use Magic Device skill so it is not available for most characters before medium levels.
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I used to be a sneak, and that's just too nasty. Mass camouflauge and camouflage shouldn't stack at all.
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as someone who is a sneak agreed that camafloud and MASS camo should not stack dont see why camo and one with land cant though but mass camo perhaps mass camo could be adjusted to just do what camo does but on an area of effect?
oh and blacky rose all someone needds to cast ranger scrolls is one lvl of ranger
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My character Liam, has no issues detecting sneaks, I don't see where the problem is. If you wish to detect sneaks, you need only invest in the right skills and feats. Sytem is fine and should be left alone in my opinion.
System is broken and it takes Broken Builds in order to counter it. If Sneak Stuff, Stacks, So should Detection Stuff. Plain and Simple.
~Rex
So taking skills and feats in spot and listen make a broken build? I don't thinks so. If you wish to be a good sneak, you need to dedicate yourself to that course, likewise if you want to be a good anti-sneak. The mod is already too suited for the lone ranger- do it alls, The more things are specialized the better, makes for better RP and a more balanced world. lets make changes that encourage a diverse group of PCs, instead of the one we have now where half the builds on the server are basically the same.
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My character Liam, has no issues detecting sneaks, I don't see where the problem is. If you wish to detect sneaks, you need only invest in the right skills and feats. Sytem is fine and should be left alone in my opinion.
System is broken and it takes Broken Builds in order to counter it. If Sneak Stuff, Stacks, So should Detection Stuff. Plain and Simple.
~Rex
So taking skills and feats in spot and listen make a broken build? I don't thinks so. If you wish to be a good sneak, you need to dedicate yourself to that course, likewise if you want to be a good anti-sneak. The mod is already too suited for the lone ranger- do it alls, The more things are specialized the better, makes for better RP and a more balanced world. lets make changes that encourage a diverse group of PCs, instead of the one we have now where half the builds on the server are basically the same.
Fighters do not get spot or listen as class skills, and only 2 skill points per level. They will never be able to detect even a moderate sneak. The gear is unbalanced, the DPs are unbalanced. The whole hide in plain sight computer engine handling of stealth is unbalanced.
Regardless, this topic is purely about the spells, whether it's balanced to have one type stack, and the other not. The skills and items have been discussed ad naseum already.
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A fighter is not supposed to spot a sneak.
A sneak is not supposed to beat a fighter in pure melee.
What is unbalanced?
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A fighter is not supposed to spot a sneak.
A sneak is not supposed to beat a fighter in pure melee.
What is unbalanced?
ok i'll go off with my own build with calson he's a ranger rouge backgrounds with stealth and child of the wild (i was told child of teh wild gives bonus to listen but i'm not certain) he's got 16 wis half-vistani and every feat for stealth and listen plus he has a helm of the bat which gives +5 and has no DP's in total he's got unbuffed a 36 listen and he rarely can spot folks his same lvl of stealth focus which ok fair enough is hit or miss but when i look at the amount of stealth gear, scrolls, vs detect gear either spot/listen, and scrolls that wont stack the way teh stealth scrolls do well....honestly there's teh problem if you ask me
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A fighter is not supposed to spot a sneak.
A sneak is not supposed to beat a fighter in pure melee.
What is unbalanced?
Sneaks do beat fighters in pure melee. That's the problem.
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With 36 listen at your level, you could have seen Julia and most sneaks of the same level as you. Of course, you could add the DP's, but guess what, there is a DP that gives spot/listen as well, so it's a moot point.
Anyhow, rather tired of that debate. It's a pointless one and arguments were stated in other topics and it is a result of ignorance more than anything since most don't know how the system works or what it's like on both sides and make bold claims based on hearsay most of the time.
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edit: And no, a pure sneak doesn't beat a fighter in melee. What beats a fighter in melee is a fighter/rogue, but that's both a melee build and a stealth build and is usually the best build you can make for a fighter and for a rogue, hence why most of our rogues and fighters tend to be fighter/rogues.
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With 36 listen at your level, you could have seen Julia and most sneaks of the same level as you. Of course, you could add the DP's, but guess what, there is a DP that gives spot/listen as well, so it's a moot point.
Anyhow, rather tired of that debate. It's a pointless one and arguments were stated in other topics and it is a result of ignorance more than anything since most don't know how the system works or what it's like on both sides and make bold claims based on hearsay most of the time.
while i understand what your getting at eo on topic here if you compare JUST scrolls of stealth that DO stack VS the scrolls that do spot/listen i'm pretty sure of course you can correct me if i'm wrong the stealth scrolls will give more bonus's then the spot/listrne scrolls
because last i checked amplify and clarivoyance dont stack so just by using the camo/mass camo/one with land trio of scrools a stealth can out hide a listener
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Amplify and clairvoyance do stack actually.
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Didn't someone say when you roll spot/listen it add D20, and hide/ms DOES NOT?
So if that's true, if you have 36 spot and I have 36 hide, you will spot me every single time. So really I think hide/ms should always be higher then spot/listen. Thus being more... items and scrolls to use to get it more higher then spot/listen, because if there was no hide/ms skill + items, and no spot/listen skill + items. Then spotters.. would win.. all the time.
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Both sides add 20. Spot/Listen and hide/MS
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Amplify+clairaudience+helm of the bat+ selected feats and backgrounds will beat most MS builds. Topic is about Clairavoyance and true seeing not stacking while camoflauge and one with the land do. Lower level spells shouldn't beat out higher level spells.
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Hm I thought someone said was just spot/listen... :P
lol Ok my last post makes no sense now.. *Coughs and runs off*
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Both sides add 20. Spot/Listen and hide/MS
only if youve added a server side fix in the haxs as in the hard code bioware missed the d20 to hide rolls well known and well documented
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Both sides add 20. Spot/Listen and hide/MS
only if youve added a server side fix in the haxs as in the hard code bioware missed the d20 to hide rolls well known and well documented
Ren is right. Atm as far as i know there is no hak inn place to give sneakers that +D20 so atm its.... (If in detect mode or an elf) D20+Spot/Listen vs Hide/MS
But considering the sneaker gear and spells that kinda works out (only thing that is not then seen is DP's and lack of listen/spot gear, but thats a dev issue)
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Aren't they on the tenth patch now? How could they miss that nine times in a row?
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Since I'm falling behind to Failed Bard in this, I'll make it up now. If the Sneak Stuff Stacks, so should the Detect Stuff, unless within the description of the detect stuff does it state that it does not stack.
Someone show me this Sneaks don't get a d20 thing cause this is the first I've heard of it. Granted I don't play a lot of sneaks but as nit picky as I am I'm sure I would have spotted that. Guess I'll test it when I get time.
~Rex
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I used to be a sneak, and that's just too nasty. Mass camouflauge and camouflage shouldn't stack at all.
As a sneak I agree with this.. those two should not stack. Since they are in effect the same spell.. one is simply a radius spell as opposed to single target.
Both sides add 20. Spot/Listen and hide/MS
When was this changed/remedied. I was informed a few months back that it was D20+spot/listen ranks vs. hide/ms ranks by many others. Cause I did test this out earlier ( a month or so ago) a lvl 1 with 14 spot saw my sneak who had a 34 hide (the listen vs ms scores were not comparable beaten hands down even with a natural 20), not a fade but plain as day. So if you are saying it is and has always been (d20 + listen spot vs d20 + ms/hs) then I will have to say you may be wrong in your understanding, since even if I rolled a 1 on my check I would have beaten the spotter.
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There are situational modifiers to the stealth rolls that could have made a difference. Moving, for one.
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Situational modifies affect Hide/MS which would grant the Spot/Listen person a better chance then just straight d20 plus skill.
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Passive (default) mode
Trap detection radius: 3.33m (~11ft)
Trap detection rate: 6 seconds (every round)
Trap detection roll: d20 + full skill (in version 1.68, probably a bug)
Spot/listen roll: d10 + half skill
Active (detect) mode
Trap detection radius: 6.66m (~22ft)
Trap detection rate: 3 seconds (twice per round)
Trap detection roll: d20 + full skill
Spot/listen roll: d20 + full skill
Stealth checks
Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
Player rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds
NPC detects stealth: 4 seconds
NPC rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds
All I could find.. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Detect
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For the Fifth time for people to argue with the basis of facts, here are the Stealth and detection modifiers as per Bioware.
Basic Mechanics
Passive (default) mode
Trap detection radius: 5ft
Trap detection rate: 6 seconds (every round)
Trap detection roll: d20
Spot/Listen roll: d10
Active (Detect) mode
Trap detection radius: 10ft
Trap detection rate: 3 seconds (twice per round)
Trap detection roll: d20
Spot/Listen roll: d20
Stealth checks
Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
Player rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds
NPC detects stealth: 4 seconds
NPC rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds
Modifiers and conditions
Listen/Move Silently:
* Automatically cannot detect silenced creatures
* Can only detect invisible (or when you're blind) creatures within the max attack range.
* Cannot hear sanctuaried creatures
* If there is something between you and the target (including creatures) there's a modifier of +5 DC for every 40cm of thickness in outdoor areas
* In indoor areas, if the LOS is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles (dfs search) there's a modifier of +2 DC
* Area listen check modifiers
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* +1 DC for every 3 meters of distance to the target
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses
Spot/Hide In Shadows:
* Automatically cannot detect invisible creatures
* Automatically cannot detect anything while blinded
* Area spot check modifiers
* During Night, if you do not have a light on you (including weapon lights and darkvision) there is a +5 DC modifier
* During Night, if the target has a light on them, there is a -10 DC modifier
* For stealthed players only, there is a +5 DC if they are in the back arc
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses
Stealth and detection are fine, not worth the effort in discussing this for the 10th time.
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For the Fifth time for people to argue with the basis of facts, here are the Stealth and detection modifiers as per Bioware.
Stealth and detection are fine, not worth the effort in discussing this for the 10th time.
I think players can decide for themselves what's worth discussing and what isn't.
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Nowhere on that chart does it say why here it was decided that the lower level sneak spells shouls stack to give a +24 bonus to hide, while the higher level detect spells don't stack, and only give +10. That is the topic, not the sytem.
We really need Soren's opinion on this, or another member of the Dev team, as to why it stacks for one and not the other.
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I thought it was made clear a while ago that some detect spells do stack such as Clairvoyance/Amplify which gives a +30 bonus to listen, a bonus that can't be matched by any + Move Silently buffs.
Either way, Mass Camo and Camo aren't supposed to stack and that will be fixed, but there is no reason why Camouflage and One With the Land wouldn't stack.
Locking this topic since it has served its purpose and such debates ultimately lead nowhere but to more animosity towards certain classes.