Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Thoraion on June 17, 2008, 04:30:33 PM
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i have the impression that the economics of crafting could use some tuning...
there's absolutely no market for bows or leather armour - so learning to craft is nothing else than an IC-hobby consuming large amounts of coin.
And even if sometime somebody buys a bow or a set of armour, the process of advancing in the craft means that a few hundred bows and sets of armour have been produces for the trash bin.
What to do with those? sell them to the merchants for a handfull of fang, that is even less than a template?
If one does, those products will never be sold, since those products are then available from the merchants at a ridiculously better price than their regular bows.
To me, it seems that crafting of wood and leather is nothing more than a way to spend money in a completely useless way - to reach a level at which one can compete with the masters means spending thousands of fang and days of real life time.
is that intended?
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don't let me get started on that again...
You're absolutely right by the way
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I made a character especially to help crafters sell their best assets. Hook me up in game, we'll talk.
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All the crafts are basically money pits till you hit the high end, desired commodities. The crafts require the devotion of a lot of time and money before you get to that point.
With woodworking, the most sought after items are going to be the Steel arrows/bolts (which are consumables, so always in demand), and the white stag bows. So to say that there is no profit potential is a little strange.
Granted with leatherworking, there really isn't anything that great in the higher ends considering that better leather armor can either be purchased or found in loot elsewhere. Maybe with future improvements and additions, leatherworking will be more feasible.
The best paying craft has always been smithing, but to be honest, its also waaaaaay more costly to get good at it. Especially when you start needing to make steel full plates to get decent CXP. And I won't even touch on what it costs to level in Gilding. :shock:
Honestly, though, I've always viewed crafts as simple diversions for alternative play and roleplaying devices rather than actual professions for profit. You want to earn easier money? Raid a dungeon. Provide services. Kill rats.
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Yeah pretty much what Ethinos said. Not a big fan of the Economy of the server. it's all Slopes and Plateu's, with nothing in the middle. Stuff is either worth Nothing, or a Fortune in most cases.
Try selling a Steel Crossbow to Crawler once and then look at his markup.
~Rex
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It would be nice to see the -5 keen on bows gradually ease up to -4, -3 etc. I personally don't see how normal characters progress in bow making. I know when Liam and Grimshakle did it they could get big money for their bows. I myself can safely say I have put more than 50k into bow making. This is only possible because I am high selling Vardo and I expect it to be months before I ever see my money back.
I also do herbalism and the contrast is startling. Almost anyone can make a cure light potion and a few of them is worth more than an Ash long bow or a Yew composite which few people can make? 1 is actually worth more than any non composite bow.
I understand not wanting players to get crazy rich on their bows, and encouraging player rp to sell but even a slight adjustment would be welcome. The way the current system is will discourage people from getting into it until the other established bow makers leave or die thus creating a demanding market. Between Liam and Ileanna its pretty hard for anyone else to sell a bow these days thus making new bow makers extremely challenged and rare. A template for a long composite bow is roughly 100sh fang.
If a way could be made to say lose money on beech, almost break even on yew and make a slight profit on ash the system would be more balanced and would still encourage players as the main customer. I can live with the current situation as it is but I can afford it, I would however say a change would be in the best interests of the community even if it isn't in mine.
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We only have an economy because the crafts are sucking away all the money. On servers where there is nothing to buy and nothing to craft, money just piles up and inflates the server... ...except for scrolls. Those are really expensive.
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I imagine that a lot of the currently craftable items will be in much more demand once we have enchanting implemented.
However, it might be that it's time we phase out magical armour and weapons out of stores as well.
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what kind of enchanting we are talking about btw ?
can you give us a vague direction what to expect ? like we enchant the crafted weapons and armors ? like maybe +2/ice/lighting damage ?
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well, at least i also have a few suggestions to make:
NPC merchants should buy crafted items at a price above the template price - at least 10% beginning with the simplest materials seems fair enough. However, they should sell those items ABOVE the price of the normal, not crafted items. You might think about removing the normal weapons (NOT the most basic ones) from the shops altogether. As long as there are enough crafters, that should work...
I stick with my thesis that there is currently no profit in crafting - maybe except from smithing, but what conclusion are potential crafters to draw from that? If steel-tipped arrows are the way to go for bowyers - guess what you have just done wrong...
As far as i can see it, there is nearly no motivation to cooperate with other crafters - besides smiths... Since one can't get any money from the items crafted, there's also no way to pay others to go and get the required materials.
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we should let the normal weapons and armors be on the shops. if those would be removed and only crafted items are around... how would new to server lv 2 newb afford to buy anything with their massive 50 gold starter money ? they would have to run around for eternity with the default leather armor and short sword hehe, aaaand they would leave once they learn that they need around 5k to get basic equipment
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we should let the normal weapons and armors be on the shops. if those would be removed and only crafted items are around... how would new to server lv 2 newb afford to buy anything with their massive 50 gold starter money ? they would have to run around for eternity with the default leather armor and short sword hehe, aaaand they would leave once they learn that they need around 5k to get basic equipment
That's part of why I wish there were more variety to what you could churn out with leatherworking. I'm usually willing to let leather armor go much cheaper than a smith is going to sell even the cheapest chain shirt. It would be a good interim step for a level or two until they could afford the metal armor, at least. But once the newbies see that crafted leather armor is exactly the same as the default armor with at best only a small and (relatively) useless bonus, they'll pass. Seriously -- can't even give the stuff away. After weeks of real time spent in Aleksei's I was pretty horrified to find that within the server's economy, only curing has any profit potential.
Of course, I don't know that there's any actual solution that would make padded or leather armor interesting enough. Maybe a way to reduce its weight or allow higher max AC bonus with "soft leather patches" or something. I'm just bitter about all the fang spent on wax and tannin. :)
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Dec team will sooner or later look at leather armour again...
I'd like to see the wieght reduction and over all +1 AC that steel armours have WITH an added MINOR additional bonus of additional leather patches that JUST work for leather that provide more options than cold or neg energy resistance... like white stag hide providing another +1 AC vs undead etc
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well, at least i also have a few suggestions to make:
NPC merchants should buy crafted items at a price above the template price - at least 10% beginning with the simplest materials seems fair enough. However, they should sell those items ABOVE the price of the normal, not crafted items. You might think about removing the normal weapons (NOT the most basic ones) from the shops altogether. As long as there are enough crafters, that should work...
I stick with my thesis that there is currently no profit in crafting - maybe except from smithing, but what conclusion are potential crafters to draw from that? If steel-tipped arrows are the way to go for bowyers - guess what you have just done wrong...
As far as i can see it, there is nearly no motivation to cooperate with other crafters - besides smiths... Since one can't get any money from the items crafted, there's also no way to pay others to go and get the required materials.
Why would a merchant purchase crap merchandise which he cannot sell it for a profit? If your a crafter try to sell everything you make to PC's. You cannot. No one wants 50 bronze daggers or any other bronze weapons for that matter. Since there is no market for them merchants will not purchase them.
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we should let the normal weapons and armors be on the shops. if those would be removed and only crafted items are around... how would new to server lv 2 newb afford to buy anything with their massive 50 gold starter money ? they would have to run around for eternity with the default leather armor and short sword hehe, aaaand they would leave once they learn that they need around 5k to get basic equipment
I wholeheartedly agree.
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we should let the normal weapons and armors be on the shops. if those would be removed and only crafted items are around... how would new to server lv 2 newb afford to buy anything with their massive 50 gold starter money ? they would have to run around for eternity with the default leather armor and short sword hehe, aaaand they would leave once they learn that they need around 5k to get basic equipment
I think the problem facing new player is not much they can't afford better equipment. I think the problem is there are very few apparent avenues they can pursue to party up with higher levels so they can earn the money. It's the luck of the time zone draw or other impediments.
Maybe we need a Ravenloft welcome wagon. :idea:
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i'm still of the opinon that there should be a lvl 2-3 area that only they can get to that would be a challenge for those of that lvl and tehy could lean about surivivng there and the land
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i'm still of the opinon that there should be a lvl 2-3 area that only they can get to that would be a challenge for those of that lvl and tehy could lean about surivivng there and the land
Another good idea. Other servers, such as Forgotten Realms of Cormyr, have area level restrictions. My Diablo server has waypoints by which you can't progress to another area until you've finished the quest and get the way point. You can go backwards, but generally players just make up a new char for that and pass the stuff on to their mule. Or several mules in my case. :mrgreen:
If there's a way of doing something, somebody somewhere has implemented it successfully.
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The removal of issue and static items brings up a problem. Crafting system or no, a majority of people crafting are just doing it to hand out stuff to friends (a reason why a lot of servers restrict the number of trades one can "learn"). There is just not enough over lap to promote a real "crafters" functional economy, and even with all the crafters we HAVE, trying to find one to buy something, is a pain in the ass.
I'll Use HAZE as an example, for an interlocked crafting system.
Trades were Interlocked, and supported one another. Except for Food/Brewing which was like an Insane sub culture all it's own. Your Weapons Crafter Had to buy Molds and Tools from the Tinker, Bowyer has to buy Cat Cut or silk from the tanners and Tailors, Enchanters had to buy bottles from the Tinkers Tinkers, and tailors had to buy supplies and such from Gatherers (which by the way Gathering was a set of skills as well which determined how much you got out of a given resource). So you had all these interlocked, massively detailed crafts (which kept people from Mastering Every one of them for the Most part with the exception of 2 people with absolutely no life what so ever).
But what really made it functional, were the "Things". Things were little contraptions that you could load up with your Material, set a price, park it somewhere, and people could buy the stuff, and you could go back and collect the money and restock it like a vending machine, in addition to having it follow you around and doing real open market with it.
Many servers have similar things from NPC merchants that will sell the stuff, up to static locations you "buy" from the server to use in a similar fashion as the Haze Thing (Aerilith is a good example of that actually).
Without some sort of Persistent selling tool like that, it's just not going to work. You end up being Forced to have to deal with people and creatures you otherwise would have no reason to, and perhaps by proper RP background, would never WANT to.
~Rex
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But everyone wants to buy goods from my dwarf. Everyone. Even silly Falks and looking-down-their-noses-while-chewing-dandelions elves.
The problem with making the crafts more interlocked, is that if we already have few enough crafters to adequately serve the populace, making those few crafters have to get together with others just means longer wait times (because crafters aren't all on at the same time), and probably way higher prices, because time is money.
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But everyone wants to buy goods from my dwarf. Everyone. Even silly Falks and looking-down-their-noses-while-chewing-dandelions elves.
The problem with making the crafts more interlocked, is that if we already have few enough crafters to adequately serve the populace, making those few crafters have to get together with others just means longer wait times (because crafters aren't all on at the same time), and probably way higher prices, because time is money.
I may have to implement the Falkovnian method of making sure a Dwarf forges my material on time and in due course. *Hands the Dwarf a Pair of manacles while he heats up a branding iron* Here, put those on Ja like der Gute Zwerg.
~Rex
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But everyone wants to buy goods from my dwarf. Everyone. Even silly Falks and looking-down-their-noses-while-chewing-dandelions elves.
The problem with making the crafts more interlocked, is that if we already have few enough crafters to adequately serve the populace, making those few crafters have to get together with others just means longer wait times (because crafters aren't all on at the same time), and probably way higher prices, because time is money.
That can simply be solved if merchants can work as a trade hub. If they pay slightly below average and charge slightly above average for crafted items (finished ones and half-finished), it stays attractive to deal among players, but does not require them to actually be online.
What i learned is that a crafter selling finished items usually also does every step between raw materials and the finished product himself - classical jack of all trades.
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we could get like crafters house, where all the crafters in the land could focus their selling and buying. then when someone would need something they could walz in there and see whos there at the moment.
vardo of course is forbidden to enter and stick their greesy fingers into hard working crafters sale :mrgreen:
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Unfortunatey, for someone like Torgan, he rarely had a middleman. Sometimes one of the Vardo would order stuff through him, having already taken orders (knowing Torgan could and would make the item in a reasonable time period), but most of his customers were repeat customers and direct.
The hub doesn't always work, because after you know who makes the stuff, you'll usually wait for them to pop up to pay the lower prices.
Most crafters do the entire process because waiting for others and depending on others to complete the crafted items becomes extremely time consuming and frustrating.
The only things I've really seen ever that actually involves two crafters usually are steel arrows/bolts, because smithing steel is a tough deal and so is making steel arrows. Steel crossbows are the occasional other item. Often a smith and woodworker will work together.
As for the crafters house, again, not all the crafters are ever on at the same time, if even any. There really would need to be a static NPC merchant to make sure wares were available for sale at all times. As for the Vardo? Yeah, like they can resist keeping their hands out of the cookie jar... :?
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It's a shame that PC-vendor shops can't be setup like in some MMOs. Even if it were possible, I imagine server crashes/resets would become quickly bothersome with this sort of system.
The way Nef's set up her new character is really wonderful for the crafters, at least.
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Unfortunatey, for someone like Torgan, he rarely had a middleman. Sometimes one of the Vardo would order stuff through him, having already taken orders (knowing Torgan could and would make the item in a reasonable time period), but most of his customers were repeat customers and direct.
The hub doesn't always work, because after you know who makes the stuff, you'll usually wait for them to pop up to pay the lower prices.
Most crafters do the entire process because waiting for others and depending on others to complete the crafted items becomes extremely time consuming and frustrating.
The only things I've really seen ever that actually involves two crafters usually are steel arrows/bolts, because smithing steel is a tough deal and so is making steel arrows. Steel crossbows are the occasional other item. Often a smith and woodworker will work together.
As for the crafters house, again, not all the crafters are ever on at the same time, if even any. There really would need to be a static NPC merchant to make sure wares were available for sale at all times. As for the Vardo? Yeah, like they can resist keeping their hands out of the cookie jar... :?
Like I said, you need a static if not persistent set up in order to pull it off. A lot of servers do it, shouldn't be to hard to implement. Then, you need a Range of prices for sale and resale value, since the Nothing Nothing nothing, Fortune! scale that we currently have, doesn't work from an economics point of view.
As for the middle men, like you said, frustrating and time consuming.
Vardo, not really a factor, topic for another thread.
Would be nice, if all the tradesmen got together and functioned something as a unit but it won't happen because most of the people in the trades aren't there to be a tradesman, they do it to be able to sling gear. Bit of a difference.
~Rex
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Let me think a bit in the past... didn't trish try to start up something like that and then all the merchants started... mysteriously disappearing?
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Would be nice, if all the tradesmen got together and functioned something as a unit but it won't happen because most of the people in the trades aren't there to be a tradesman, they do it to be able to sling gear. Bit of a difference.
~Rex
What does that mean exactly ? That they arent crafters first ? That they have other interests and activities ?
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Let me start by noting that I never mentioned phasing out regular items from shops, but only those that have a character of being magical. I imagine that the armours and bows at Deganwy has a significant hampering effect on the endeavours of a woodworker or leather armourer trying to get buyers for their wares. Removing the exceptional heavy armour and weapons would also benefit the smithing trade, but I'd be more cautious with that for now. However, you should keep in mind that when the supply from NPC merchants is reduced, it's likely that there's going to be a lot more PC crafters as demand rises. The crafting system is also still far from done, with enchanting of items, among other things, yet to be implemented. Before all the rest is in place, we won't have any form of inter-dependent system, or even a fully balanced and functional server-wide economy.
I'm personally not very fond of automated systems that eliminates the buyer and seller having to actually meet though. The motivation behind having a server economy is, for us, much more to spawn roleplay - and that means interaction. I like how some set up IC messages on our forums announcing that they'll provide items for certain prices, or that they'll ask for crafters for certain items etc. An in game notice system might benefit these things even more.
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Would be nice, if all the tradesmen got together and functioned something as a unit but it won't happen because most of the people in the trades aren't there to be a tradesman, they do it to be able to sling gear. Bit of a difference.
~Rex
What does that mean exactly ? That they arent crafters first ? That they have other interests and activities ?
That they are in it either just long enough to make the gear they want for themselves, or as handouts to their ooc friends. It's an OOC thing. Not an IC thing. Crafting done because they can hit the numbers to do it and the motivation being OOC beefing up for one various OOC reason or another, not because of an actual real structured background reason.
Steps on the toes of those in it for the longhaul. Why buy from serious crafter dwarf guy, when buffed up clericus maximus, will just Give you the gear for nothing?
~Rex
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I'm personally not very fond of automated systems that eliminates the buyer and seller having to actually meet though. The motivation behind having a server economy is, for us, much more to spawn roleplay - and that means interaction.
That's the one side of the coin - and i appreciate it! The other side is that during the process of reaching a level on which one can expect that at least 50% of the stuff that goes in the crafting stations will actually result in something, you produce for the trash-bin since NOBODY buys that kind of stuff. I doubt that there will ever be a real market for 100 yew short bows and 75 yew long bows... per crafter, that is... Do the math, that's a few thousand fang for the bin.
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Simple restructuring of the System to rack it into balance (posted such a structure in one of the crafting threads) takes care of the 50% speed bump of trashbin feeding, since Everything will have a USE.
~Rex