Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Ric on June 13, 2008, 03:35:30 PM

Title: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Ric on June 13, 2008, 03:35:30 PM
I've been meaning to post about this for a few days, but I keep mind-slipping.  While I do like the availability of potions being dependant on Herbalist PCs now, I feel that we should at least keep Healing potions (At least up to Cure Moderates) available via NPCs.

The reason is becuase healing potions are basic necessities in most hunting parties.  They were good, since you could always stock up on a stack of two for a reasonable price (Around 1000ish if you shopped at the right places for 2-3 stacks).  The problem now is that everyone's forced to seek out herbalist PCs, and the demands are too much, even for the herablists.  I've got 6 players that all want stacks of cure lights/moderates, but what's my output after emptying my herb-bags?  Maybe 2 stacks of lights and 1 stack of moderate on a good day?  (Sometimes a few serious when I can manage to get all the resources).

To be honest, with an herbalist, I'd rather provide other things instead of just healing and let the customers fill their healing needs by buying them off an NPC.

Plus, with the seasons shifting the herbs you can find, it also adds another pain.  I'm forced to make cure light wounds most of the time since I can't even find the other components needed to make the higher potions.

You know there's a problem when I can provide 10 haste potions but I can't even provide decent healing potions.  :x

Does anyone else feel we should at least return healing potions back to NPCs?
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Zedrik on June 13, 2008, 07:11:08 PM
I've pretty much given up on herbalism. I never see anyone want potions and I never see anyone selling them.
So. Whatever.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Rex on June 13, 2008, 07:23:00 PM
Quote from: Zedrik on June 13, 2008, 07:11:08 PM
I've pretty much given up on herbalism. I never see anyone want potions and I never see anyone selling them.
So. Whatever.

I feel pretty much the same way, though I like tossing the herbs out to those that can't buff so therefore are having a much harder go at it then the casters.

Still, I have only seen ONE, herb crafter that would sell anything.  Plain old fighter so Potions are helpful, it's just let's face it, the only merchant in Vallaki PC wise, sells Bows Bolts and arrows.

I'm also not a big fan of having to try and match someone else's schedule.  Or being forced to deal with types of Characters that I would prefer to avoid.

If you want a PC dependent economy, they your going to have to come up with some sort of remote persistent way of selling this stuff, much like many servers have and use.  Also, by the same logic of removing potions from NPC's, the Weapons should go as well.

Relegate the NPC's to selling/buying components.  Set up a persistent Remote selling system.  Currently right now finding someone willing to sell you a potion is along the lines of duck duck goose. 

~Rex
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: kenpen on June 13, 2008, 07:26:03 PM
Some really decent, useful things can be made. Freedom of movement. Death ward potions. Negative energy protection... things you don't /ever/ really find in loot tables. No idea about some of the cooler potions (actual HEAL potions would be nice.)

But, the steady bank would be in  moderate/serious healing potions. And there don't seem to really be enough reagents for them, given the amount of people that want them, and the fact most people probably won't be able to pay for them with the scarcity being what it is.

Lack of healing potions will probably hurt lower levels more than higher levels, who will just go and wipe the ML crypts and Zeklos clean repeatedly in order to get the knuckles and bones to get decent numbers of heals.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: ethinos on June 13, 2008, 07:31:22 PM
Quote from: Rex on June 13, 2008, 07:23:00 PM
If you want a PC dependent economy, they your going to have to come up with some sort of remote persistent way of selling this stuff, much like many servers have and use.  Also, by the same logic of removing potions from NPC's, the Weapons should go as well.

Ack. So, only crafters would be able to sell weapons, armor, etc? That would be good for the PC market, but may overburden the smiths, heh. I'm just glad that since my "return" I haven't been fielded one work order yet for Torgan's wares.

But you have an interesting idea with the remote theory...  Maybe have certain NPC's buy crafted goods for resale, and offer reasonable prices for those goods. PC's buy the limited supply of goods for market value. Just limit the number of the same items that the NPC's would purchase to keep the crafter from unloading 100 steel longswords, and maybe everyone wins.

Now, the best thing would be to have some kind of store set up to sell your goods at, through an NPC, but I think for each crafter to have a store/NPC merchant may be rather daunting from the development angle.

As for the lack of healing potions, we might actually start seeing party clerics saving their spell slots for healing spells for once.... :lol:
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on June 13, 2008, 08:16:28 PM
*looks into his crystal ball* 

I see a world in which the Red Vardo are actually merchants.....
I see a world in which the Red Vardo are in reality a crafters guild......
I see a world in which the Baal Verzi are the ones paid to perform a hit on people and collect bounties.....


Note: Ramblings of the observations of a person. These in no way predict the future nor are plans which the said person is aware of. Would certainly be a change in comparison to how things were 6 months ago.

Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Delphinidae on June 13, 2008, 08:51:31 PM
Quote from: DM Shadowspawn on June 13, 2008, 08:16:28 PM
*looks into his crystal ball* 

I see a world in which the Red Vardo are actually merchants.....
I see a world in which the Red Vardo are in reality a crafters guild......

This depends on the Vardo, to be honest. They wise up and they'd make a killing.

Quote from: DM Shadowspawn on June 13, 2008, 08:16:28 PM
I see a world in which the Baal Verzi are the ones paid to perform a hit on people and collect bounties.....

Vertzi doing hits: Yes. Playing bounty hunters? No. They're supposed to be low key assassins, not bounty hunters. Also, all their bounties would be permadeath.

Back on topic, I'm quite fond of the herbalism and yes, while the seasonal availability is a pain, that means you'd better stock up. You can still make moderate potion wounds right now. Don't know how it'll be in the winter. If you're chugging down too many potions, something is wrong with your strategy or the party you're making.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Nefensis on June 13, 2008, 08:56:42 PM
To be honest, running around for hours gathering enough for 10 potions is a long long long time.. and i go through 20-30-40 potions soemtimes in a week. I dont have time to harvest like that and i wouldnt want anyone to have to do that, its boring as crap for something that is usable only once unlike an armor.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Ric on June 13, 2008, 09:00:40 PM
Doesn't change the fact that I still have everyone asking for healing potions when I can produce more buff-potions than heal-potions.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Iconoclast on June 13, 2008, 09:10:49 PM
Quote from: Zedrik on June 13, 2008, 07:11:08 PM
I've pretty much given up on herbalism. I never see anyone want potions and I never see anyone selling them.
So. Whatever.

Here was Carrib bagging things for Healer Kalan these past couple weeks for herbalism, looking forward to all the useful things.  Be sure to use the faction forum of the Sewer Dwellers, let them know if Healer Kalan has potions for use, because I'd prefer getting healing tonics from a pc caliban than an npc for both what might be rp development as well as saving some coin.

Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: failed.bard on June 13, 2008, 10:00:18 PM
  Last time I checked, you could still buy cure light wounds potions.  Dribo loaded up on mods the day before they were removed from the stores, and still has 30 of the 50 she bought, and has been just about everywhere since.
  Less healing potions lead to smarter adventuring, or dead adventurers, both of which are a good thing some of the time.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Badbelly on June 13, 2008, 11:20:14 PM
Seems a little early to start being critical of the new system. lets give it a season or two and then start making adjustments.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: ThAnswr on June 13, 2008, 11:37:06 PM
Quote from: DM Shadowspawn on June 13, 2008, 08:16:28 PM
*looks into his crystal ball* 

I see a world in which the Red Vardo are actually merchants.....
I see a world in which the Red Vardo are in reality a crafters guild......
I see a world in which the Baal Verzi are the ones paid to perform a hit on people and collect bounties.....


Note: Ramblings of the observations of a person. These in no way predict the future nor are plans which the said person is aware of. Would certainly be a change in comparison to how things were 6 months ago.



~~~ What a wonderful world ~~~

No cleric can continually heal up a party. There aren't enough spell slots and the resting is restricted.  "Curel Minor/Light/Moderate/Serious Wounds isn't worth squat to a high level party in a situation in which lots of damage is taken.  What do you do when the cleric runs out of spells?   It doesn't take much. 

Btw, the only healing spell worth a tinker's damn in the aforementioned high level-high damage party  situation is "Heal"  and that's a 6th level spell and you get 5 of those slots at level 17.   

Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Zedrik on June 14, 2008, 12:02:08 AM
Quote from: Iconoclast on June 13, 2008, 09:10:49 PM
Here was Carrib bagging things for Healer Kalan these past couple weeks for herbalism, looking forward to all the useful things.  Be sure to use the faction forum of the Sewer Dwellers, let them know if Healer Kalan has potions for use, because I'd prefer getting healing tonics from a pc caliban than an npc for both what might be rp development as well as saving some coin.
I appreciate that, but you kinda caught me at the end of the herbalism high. I already had 30 pounds of components (waiting for a certain component to come back in season) and 30 pounds of potions no one wants. So while I did brew some things with those, it's not like anyone wants to buy them. And Kalan seriously doesn't need any more weight on him. He only has a strength of 10 (capacity 86, ick!).

Are my prices too much? I extrapolated based on Murnu's and Crawler's buy/sell prices and then lowered the price slightly.
Honestly, though, I go with my previous speculation. There's just too many herbalists, therefore people A) make their own potions, B) have a friend that makes them potions for free, or C) simply don't want potions.

Quote from: Delphinidae on June 13, 2008, 08:51:31 PM
Back on topic, I'm quite fond of the herbalism and yes, while the seasonal availability is a pain, that means you'd better stock up. You can still make moderate potion wounds right now.
Yes. Stock up. There's one little component that I used solely for CSW. To the point that I had ~50 CSW potions. But since that is the ONE potion people want from me, I sold all those.
I still have tons of these other potions though.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Helaman on June 14, 2008, 01:05:58 AM
Discounts for Guards?
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: engelfire on June 14, 2008, 03:02:05 AM
i dont think theres any problem with your prices. its just that 80% of server populace are useing herbalism so they can make their own potions. why should they spend money on buying when they can do it themself. ah that thinkin applies in so many situations.

and top of that its so funny and imo little lame how suddenly everyone on server became herbalists. i know few have rp behind it but most are in it just so they get good spells as in potions, like death ward , freedom of movement, haste etc. gods if you can craft stoneskin potions or something else rather uber.

good system but its just way off from ravenloft feel. needs adjusting badly. i see herbalism as a extension to powergame/powerfarm

Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on June 14, 2008, 03:44:03 AM
Dragomir wants to buy your potions, Zedrik. All of them.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on June 14, 2008, 04:05:15 AM
Well, the system hasn't been tuned at all yet, so it might be that we should make the ingredients that give healing potions more available, or add more of them.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Rex on June 14, 2008, 04:48:26 AM
Quote from: ThAnswr on June 13, 2008, 11:37:06 PM
Quote from: DM Shadowspawn on June 13, 2008, 08:16:28 PM
*looks into his crystal ball* 

I see a world in which the Red Vardo are actually merchants.....
I see a world in which the Red Vardo are in reality a crafters guild......
I see a world in which the Baal Verzi are the ones paid to perform a hit on people and collect bounties.....


Note: Ramblings of the observations of a person. These in no way predict the future nor are plans which the said person is aware of. Would certainly be a change in comparison to how things were 6 months ago.



~~~ What a wonderful world ~~~

No cleric can continually heal up a party. There aren't enough spell slots and the resting is restricted.  "Curel Minor/Light/Moderate/Serious Wounds isn't worth squat to a high level party in a situation in which lots of damage is taken.  What do you do when the cleric runs out of spells?   It doesn't take much. 

Btw, the only healing spell worth a tinker's damn in the aforementioned high level-high damage party  situation is "Heal"  and that's a 6th level spell and you get 5 of those slots at level 17.   



I have NEVER, as a cleric, and I have a few, EVER had issue with keeping a party healed up.  Pick a level any level and a dungeon and I will be happy to demonstrate.
Even my pure fighter, never let a party member Die.


~Rex

Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Zedrik on June 14, 2008, 05:42:15 AM
Quote from: Helaman on June 14, 2008, 01:05:58 AM
Discounts for Guards?

You're kidding, right?

Quote from: Kung Fu Orc on June 14, 2008, 03:44:03 AM
Dragomir wants to buy your potions, Zedrik. All of them.

Good then.
Now I just need to find some slaves to harvest herbs and fungus for me...
I'm so burnt out on gathering it's not funny.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Rex on June 14, 2008, 02:47:04 PM
Quote from: Zedrik on June 14, 2008, 05:42:15 AM
Quote from: Helaman on June 14, 2008, 01:05:58 AM
Discounts for Guards?

You're kidding, right?

Quote from: Kung Fu Orc on June 14, 2008, 03:44:03 AM
Dragomir wants to buy your potions, Zedrik. All of them.

Good then.
Now I just need to find some slaves to harvest herbs and fungus for me...
I'm so burnt out on gathering it's not funny.

Uggh, Otto finds so many weeds he drops huge piles of them in the streets.

~Rex
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Ruxandra on June 14, 2008, 07:24:44 PM
Quote from: DM Shadowspawn on June 13, 2008, 08:16:28 PM
*looks into his crystal ball* 

I see a world in which the Red Vardo are actually merchants.....
I see a world in which the Red Vardo are in reality a crafters guild......
I see a world in which the Baal Verzi are the ones paid to perform a hit on people and collect bounties.....


Note: Ramblings of the observations of a person. These in no way predict the future nor are plans which the said person is aware of. Would certainly be a change in comparison to how things were 6 months ago.



Although I don't play anymore, someone tried to entice me to come back with "We have herbalism now."

I groaned as I looked into my crystal ball and saw a world in which everybody was an herbalist rather than those who spent many months of real time RPing it and did book-length research into real world herbalism to portray it properly ingame. Then I felt bad for Ruxandra in a fashion as I envisioned scores of characters who have no RPish reason at all in learning the supposedly secretive "old ways" of Barovia suddenly becoming master herbalists and midwives through mindless resource farming and combining. Then I tossed my herbalism research and remembered I don't play anymore.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Ric on June 14, 2008, 09:05:42 PM
Here's an idea to help produce more 'good' healing potions, since you right now can only produce loads of Light wounds.  The follow contains spoilers on ingredients, but it needs to be pointed out:

Spoiler: show
As far as I've seen, there are 3 healing herbs:  Fey Leaves, Woundwart, Vicar's Cap.  Light = 1 of these, Moderates = 2 of these, Serious = 3 of these (As in, one sample of each).  Could we perhaps get it tweaked so putting more than one of the same type gets you the higher potions?  It would certainly lessen the pain of having to combine 1 of everything.

Example:  2 woundwarts = moderate.  3 woundwarts = serious.  Yes, it's easier to make them then, but at least you wouldn't have to deal with the common situation I face when I end my day of collecting and find myself carrying like 30 woundwarts, 5 fey leaves, and 1 viccar cap.  Therefore, my output becomes:  1 serious wound, 4 cure moderates, and 24 cure light wounds (assuming I'm actually succeeding on all of these).  At least with my suggestion, I could take those 30 wound warts and turn them into a potential 10 cure serious or even 15 cure moderates.  If you catch my drift.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Rex on June 15, 2008, 03:03:05 AM
Quote from: Ruxandra on June 14, 2008, 07:24:44 PM
Quote from: DM Shadowspawn on June 13, 2008, 08:16:28 PM
*looks into his crystal ball* 

I see a world in which the Red Vardo are actually merchants.....
I see a world in which the Red Vardo are in reality a crafters guild......
I see a world in which the Baal Verzi are the ones paid to perform a hit on people and collect bounties.....


Note: Ramblings of the observations of a person. These in no way predict the future nor are plans which the said person is aware of. Would certainly be a change in comparison to how things were 6 months ago.



Although I don't play anymore, someone tried to entice me to come back with "We have herbalism now."

I groaned as I looked into my crystal ball and saw a world in which everybody was an herbalist rather than those who spent many months of real time RPing it and did book-length research into real world herbalism to portray it properly ingame. Then I felt bad for Ruxandra in a fashion as I envisioned scores of characters who have no RPish reason at all in learning the supposedly secretive "old ways" of Barovia suddenly becoming master herbalists and midwives through mindless resource farming and combining. Then I tossed my herbalism research and remembered I don't play anymore.

But you should play.

~Rex
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Bad_Bud on June 16, 2008, 11:34:12 PM
It's fine the way it is.  Pay people to gather for you.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Rex on June 17, 2008, 02:48:13 AM
Quote from: Bad_Bud on June 16, 2008, 11:34:12 PM
It's fine the way it is.  Pay people to gather for you.

Hell with that.  I fight off 18 freaking no XP giving Mobats, that hit somewhere between runaway train and out of control cement truck hard, to get One piece of Lich Grass, and the crafter wants to just offer me 2 GP for it then charge me 500 GP for the potion.......

Gonna Sharpen a Knife, and level the playing field.  :D

~Rex

Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Chrisman888 on June 17, 2008, 10:54:13 AM
Has potions been removed from loot tables as well? I haven't seen much.. when I looted.. tho I could of been unlucky.

If they have.. I disagree with that :?
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: failed.bard on June 17, 2008, 11:55:49 AM
Quote from: Marrok' on June 17, 2008, 10:54:13 AM
Has potions been removed from loot tables as well? I haven't seen much.. when I looted.. tho I could of been unlucky.

If they have.. I disagree with that :?

  Saw quite a few in the barovian crypts after the changes were made.  Loot tables were tweaked again, from my understanding, so the rates may be different in different places from before.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Rex on June 17, 2008, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Marrok' on June 17, 2008, 10:54:13 AM
Has potions been removed from loot tables as well? I haven't seen much.. when I looted.. tho I could of been unlucky.

If they have.. I disagree with that :?

Seen a few, but the Loot in general is getting super thin again.  Topic for another thread.  My biggest gripe about the supply so far is that it's unbalanced in the cost, can be used to power sell, and of course, you can't Find a crafter or are stuck having to buy from something you wouldn't normally buy from.

I know there are more "herbalists" out there because I've been in the room, with 80% of the server crammed into it.

~Rex
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Bad_Bud on June 17, 2008, 02:35:58 PM
Potions are kind of expensive to make, though, and I can't be a nice supplier because I'm in jail.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Nightmare on June 17, 2008, 04:00:50 PM
Potions cost 50 GP for the Mortar and Pestle, and 5gp per potion bottle. That is far from expensive...

The only expenses are those things which you have to buy in mass supply because you are too lazy to get yourself :P
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on June 17, 2008, 04:04:24 PM
*coughs* Template for Full Platemail is ~1050 with a DC 50. *coughs* 5 fang for a potion bottle. Big difference.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Bad_Bud on June 17, 2008, 05:31:55 PM
Since when were we comparing smithing to herbalism?  I spent a couple of thousand on potion bottles (They charge me 6 per bottle, because I'm rude!) and gave all of the products away.
Title: Re: Healing Potion Supply
Post by: Rex on June 17, 2008, 07:01:13 PM
Quote from: Bad_Bud on June 17, 2008, 05:31:55 PM
Since when were we comparing smithing to herbalism?  I spent a couple of thousand on potion bottles (They charge me 6 per bottle, because I'm rude!) and gave all of the products away.

Because for an economy to function it has to balance and right now in comparison to the other "crafts" Herbalism is out of Whack.

1. 90% of the people in it, Just Jumped into it for the OOC benifits and to hand stuff out to their friends.  That's not a Trade.

2.  There is no NPC merchant resale mark up on the components, therefore no matter what you want to sell (mobat camped bleak cap), someone appraises it for 1-3, and won't squeek off of 1.  YET, when they make the potion, they want the 1800 gp, for the 5 gp investment.  That's a bit of a markup, and I didn't see PRADA stamped on the side of the bottle anywhere.

4.  More to follow in a hurry.

5. STILL NO POTIONS TO BUY (but apparently, a million folks getting handed herbs for free, so they can make piles of potions to hand back for free).

6.  You can power sell Potions. 

7.  I still plan on supporting the Herb guys, just the ones that actually seem to have a reason to be doing it beyond, My Stats, or my Buffs, Make this easy.

Also, I'd say, put the NPC static healing potions and stuff back in game, adjust their pricing, and use those as a baseline comparison for a REAL market.

~Rex