Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist

Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: tzaeru on June 10, 2008, 01:27:55 PM

Title: Undeath to Death
Post by: tzaeru on June 10, 2008, 01:27:55 PM
Why was this spell altered in such a drastic way? (Many many PCs are past level 9. I'd say that -every- non-PC undead you'd fight at the time you get this spell are over level 9.)

Quote
Undeath to Death
Spell Level: Cleric 6, Wizard / Sorcerer 6
Innate Level: 6
School: Necromancy
Component(s): Verbal, Somatic
Range: Medium
Save: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Area of Effect/Target: Colossal
Duration: Instantaneous
Description: This spell slays 1d4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level (maximum 20d4). Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first; among creatures with equal HD, those closest to the point of origin of the burst are affected first. Creatures with 9 or more hit dice are unaffected.

I can understand that it's a bit overpowered for being a level 6 spell especially when comparing to Circle of Death, also a level 6 spell aimed at living creatures but now for wizards and sorcerers, only one undead-only spell remains (control undead) while there are like over 10 non-undead spells. (FoD, Hold Monster, Hold Person, Confusion, Fear, Weird, Phantasmal Killer, Wail Of The Banshee, Power Word: Kill, Dominate Person, Dominate Monster, Energy Drain and so on..)

In my opinion this is horribly unbalancing for wizards and sorcerers. If it really is considered too powerful to be left like it is in NWN, then make it level 7 or make it work against a single target only.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Rex on June 10, 2008, 02:05:55 PM
Considering this is one of the FEW anti Undead spells, and nearly EVERY other useful Cleric Spell has been Nerfed and Nerfed badly (Even the Light spells are Nerfed) this is a terrible terrible thing to do to the clerics.


~Rex

Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: DM Shadowspawn on June 10, 2008, 02:11:27 PM
Not agreeing or disagreeing but it leaves (for wizards) with Sunburst as best undead killing spell. I think it's lvl 8 spell.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: tzaeru on June 10, 2008, 02:15:12 PM
Not agreeing or disagreeing but it leaves (for wizards) with Sunburst as best undead killing spell. I think it's lvl 8 spell.

1d6 damage per level to undead (totally not worth it for a level 8 spell. Horrid does 1d8 per level and works vs. -everyone-) and kills all vampires if they fail their reflex save. So, got one anti-undead spell aside of control undead and it only works vs. vampires -and- is level 8..

EDIT, forgot to say it's 1d6 per level x-d

EDIT, and forgot more things - it also blinds all enemies if they fail reflex saving throw. Maybe not all useless spell. But still doesn't make the situation very balanced.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Rex on June 10, 2008, 02:26:51 PM
If someone wants to know what I really wanted to post, I'll PM it.  Send request.

Also, Reflex save spells are kinda turdish against things with evasion and or massive save levels.  Still an awesome spell.  It's 8th level.  Seriously ALL an undead has to do to protect itself from Undeath to Death, is have some zombie or Skeleton minions around.  No need to Nerf it. 

~Rex
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: deDani on June 10, 2008, 04:49:01 PM
Those poor helpless wizards...
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Bad_Bud on June 10, 2008, 04:53:17 PM
Those poor helpless wizards...

 :lol:
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ethinos on June 10, 2008, 04:54:34 PM
They changed the spell so that it matches the PnP equivelant. I don't see the problem. Perhaps the NWN version was simply too powerful to begin with.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: tzaeru on June 10, 2008, 04:58:00 PM
They changed the spell so that it matches the PnP equivelant. I don't see the problem. Perhaps the NWN version was simply too powerful to begin with.

It was the only universal undead fighting spell aside of Control Undead. That's the problem I see.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ethinos on June 10, 2008, 05:04:25 PM
Adapt. Overcome. :thumbup:
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Ric on June 10, 2008, 05:11:49 PM
... I don't even notice a change.  It still does a will-save check and still kills the strongest undead NPCs in the server.  I've tested it.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: tzaeru on June 10, 2008, 05:25:03 PM
Adapt. Overcome. :thumbup:

Make a topic that states the (possible) issues about the subject . Hope for a change. Then adjust if have to and be cranky about the subject for rest of your life.

... I don't even notice a change.  It still does a will-save check and still kills the strongest undead NPCs in the server.  I've tested it.

Ooh..  :o Well. That's not what EO says, haven't yet tried testing it myself though.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Rex on June 10, 2008, 05:35:49 PM
Adapt. Overcome. :thumbup:

If we are talking PnP Equivalents then give me the PnP gear to Adapt and Overcome.  If we're going to weaken NwN material to PnP levels (and let's face it most of the time that's a good thing) Then let's apply some PnP weakness's to those critters as well.

~Rex
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ethinos on June 10, 2008, 06:00:50 PM
Stuff

Since when have you ever supported the caster's side of the nerfing of spells? :shock:

I see that this being Ravenloft, a lot of the NPC bosses are undead. This nerf simply eliminates one-hit-kills on those said bosses. This spell still has a very (un)healthy effect on large groups of undead. I know of lots of groups that go and cream folks like the Lich handily without resorting to using insta-kill spells.

The biggest effect I see that this does is eliminates high level casters from soloing certain dungeons without breaking a sweat.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: kenpen on June 10, 2008, 06:18:21 PM
Stuff

Since when have you ever supported the caster's side of the nerfing of spells? :shock:

I see that this being Ravenloft, a lot of the NPC bosses are undead. This nerf simply eliminates one-hit-kills on those said bosses. This spell still has a very (un)healthy effect on large groups of undead. I know of lots of groups that go and cream folks like the Lich handily without resorting to using insta-kill spells.

The biggest effect I see that this does is eliminates high level casters from soloing certain dungeons without breaking a sweat.

We were using it to pwn the ice queen quite regular. Morodin could insta-kill her something like, 1/3 of the time. ;)
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Ric on June 10, 2008, 08:33:57 PM
The biggest effect I see that this does is eliminates high level casters from soloing certain dungeons without breaking a sweat.

Biggest misconception of playing casters (wizards especially):  Nuke spells = 1337.  They do not.  My level 19 wizard can only cast about 10 undeaths to deaths (That's me using regulars, empowered, and maximized).  I'd much rather turn all those undeath to deaths into buff spells and summon spells to actually make a fight carry over to more than one battle (If we're going to talk about soloing).

The logic behind nerfing undeath to death is flawed, since I can easily use the same argument on a lot of our favorite "I win spells" (assuming they fail saves):  Hammer of the Gods, Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death, Mass-Heal (vs. undead), Lay On Hands (vs. undead), etc.  I could go on listening "I win spells" for hours.

Making it based on HD is more or less going to just make the designated spellcaster go "All right, time to use the next big spell."

And let's face it, even with it being nerfed to being based on HD, it's stilll going to dominate all the undead PCs, becuase of the fact that most undead PCs don't even have the HD to survive the blast, based on the fact that most of our undead are between levels 5-15.  So, so much for creating balance between a caster with an undead-slayer and an undead.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ThAnswr on June 10, 2008, 11:01:22 PM
Considering this is one of the FEW anti Undead spells, and nearly EVERY other useful Cleric Spell has been Nerfed and Nerfed badly (Even the Light spells are Nerfed) this is a terrible terrible thing to do to the clerics.


~Rex



Huh?  Rex, you feeling all right?   :lol:

Here's how I handle the spell nerfs:   When I want RP, and only RP, I log on to POTM.  When I want adventure, and only adventure,  I log on to Diablo.  Problem solved. 

Every spell nerf here has taken POTM more and more away from NWN and it's balance between RP and adventure.  This is not an adventurer's server.  End of story. 
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: - carrion - on June 11, 2008, 02:09:05 AM
This is just so wrong ...
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: failed.bard on June 11, 2008, 07:33:18 AM
  My take on the nerfing was that it brought it in line with the effects of circle of death, which I'm pretty sure has a 9 HD/level cut off as well.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Soren / Zarathustra217 on June 11, 2008, 09:20:44 AM
As I am aware, this takes the spell closer to the official DnD rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undeathToDeath.htm

The problem with the spell was that Bioware had made it excessively powerful, and in a setting as Ravenloft where basicly every other foe is undead, this wasn't very balanced. It also posed a major balance issue toward undead PCs in PvP.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ThAnswr on June 11, 2008, 09:22:30 AM
This is just so wrong ...

About the nerfing or my opinion? 

Nerfing Undeath to Death brings this spell in line with every nerf that has happened here.  No great surprise here.  Sooner or later, everyone's favorite will be nerfed.  It's just the way it is and it can either be accepted or one moves on.   Strange as that may seem coming from me, but it is consistant. 

As far as my opinion regarding POTM being an RP server, it's my opinon and I'm sticking to it.   :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Dreaderick on June 11, 2008, 09:35:09 AM
Implementing some kind of levelcap ain't too bad. My high level necro cleric can toss out an empowered undeath to death that would force 1d4*16*1.5=24-96 HD worth of undead to save or die at a DC 30+ will save. That would probably wipe out the majority of the undead faction, should they ever be caught gathering in a single place.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ThAnswr on June 11, 2008, 02:34:17 PM
Implementing some kind of levelcap ain't too bad. My high level necro cleric can toss out an empowered undeath to death that would force 1d4*16*1.5=24-96 HD worth of undead to save or die at a DC 30+ will save. That would probably wipe out the majority of the undead faction, should they ever be caught gathering in a single place.


Maybe the message should be choose your enemies and tactics wisely.   ;)
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Rex on June 12, 2008, 03:59:24 AM
  My take on the nerfing was that it brought it in line with the effects of circle of death, which I'm pretty sure has a 9 HD/level cut off as well.

That it does.

~Rex
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Fieryhates on June 12, 2008, 12:59:04 PM
I'm new to the server but from what I've read regarding the spell changes they seem to be inline with other adjustments I've seen.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Rex on June 12, 2008, 01:19:01 PM
I'm all for things being in line with a book, but there has been a rash of nerfs lately with no quid pro quo.  That's a topic for something else though and I don't want to get off track here.
As I am aware, this takes the spell closer to the official DnD rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undeathToDeath.htm

The problem with the spell was that Bioware had made it excessively powerful, and in a setting as Ravenloft where basicly every other foe is undead, this wasn't very balanced. It also posed a major balance issue toward undead PCs in PvP.

Since that portion, seems to be the major issue, I'm not that big of a fan of this particular nerfing.  If it's a balance issue, where is the balance on the Other side of the topic?

~Rex
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Fallen on June 12, 2008, 01:23:49 PM
This is just so wrong ...

About the nerfing or my opinion? 

Nerfing Undeath to Death brings this spell in line with every nerf that has happened here.  No great surprise here.  Sooner or later, everyone's favorite will be nerfed.  It's just the way it is and it can either be accepted or one moves on.   Strange as that may seem coming from me, but it is consistant. 

As far as my opinion regarding POTM being an RP server, it's my opinon and I'm sticking to it.   :mrgreen:

I like your attitude.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Khuzadrepa on June 12, 2008, 04:00:10 PM
This isn't a nerf.  This is fixing what Bioware broke.

I support this fully, and have to give a pat on the back to the admin team for it.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Rex on June 12, 2008, 11:00:12 PM
This isn't a nerf.  This is fixing what Bioware broke.

I support this fully, and have to give a pat on the back to the admin team for it.

And I'm cool with fixing something that's broke.  Bioware obviously shortbused a lot of things.  But if it's a balance issue, Is there going to be some balance addressed for the other side of the issue?

~Rex
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Fieryhates on June 13, 2008, 07:44:46 AM
This isn't a nerf.  This is fixing what Bioware broke.

I support this fully, and have to give a pat on the back to the admin team for it.

And I'm cool with fixing something that's broke.  Bioware obviously shortbused a lot of things.  But if it's a balance issue, Is there going to be some balance addressed for the other side of the issue?

~Rex


Don't think you have to say that twice to get your point across.  ;)
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Helaman on June 13, 2008, 09:21:59 AM
Sometimes its more than twice before its heard... :lol:
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Ric on June 13, 2008, 10:56:27 AM
Just have to bare in mind that there's tons of things that have been shifted to reflect PnP rules, but the problem is that since everything in PnP followed the exact same rule-set, there was balance.

When you have half the abilities/skills/spells reflecting PnP while the other half still utilizes NWN's own rule-set, then you have a lot of potential misbalance.  Yes, the game was imbalanced for Multiplayer, but basing everything off PnP is going to create a whole new imbalance.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ThAnswr on June 13, 2008, 11:49:34 AM
Just have to bare in mind that there's tons of things that have been shifted to reflect PnP rules, but the problem is that since everything in PnP followed the exact same rule-set, there was balance.

When you have half the abilities/skills/spells reflecting PnP while the other half still utilizes NWN's own rule-set, then you have a lot of potential misbalance.  Yes, the game was imbalanced for Multiplayer, but basing everything off PnP is going to create a whole new imbalance.

Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken. 

So what happens?  The spell gets nerfed to "1 turn + 1 turn per level" and your game changes.  At that point, "Extend Spell" would've been the smarter feat choice, but unfortunately, many can't see into the future.  Bottom line:  You're screwed and you can't change it.  Please no arguing that "1 turn + 1 turn per level" is a long time.  That's not what the spell was when the feat was taken. 

I really think, when a spell is nerfed, the option should be given to relevel.  It's not out of the realm of possibilities.  There are servers where you can relevel automatically just by talking to an NPC and clicking on "relevel.

Sometimes, you just want to adjust your game to reflect what's happening around you.  And that option doesn't exist after spell nerfs here.  It's frustrating. 
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Rex on June 13, 2008, 02:23:37 PM
Just have to bare in mind that there's tons of things that have been shifted to reflect PnP rules, but the problem is that since everything in PnP followed the exact same rule-set, there was balance.

When you have half the abilities/skills/spells reflecting PnP while the other half still utilizes NWN's own rule-set, then you have a lot of potential misbalance.  Yes, the game was imbalanced for Multiplayer, but basing everything off PnP is going to create a whole new imbalance.

Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken. 

So what happens?  The spell gets nerfed to "1 turn + 1 turn per level" and your game changes.  At that point, "Extend Spell" would've been the smarter feat choice, but unfortunately, many can't see into the future.  Bottom line:  You're screwed and you can't change it.  Please no arguing that "1 turn + 1 turn per level" is a long time.  That's not what the spell was when the feat was taken. 

I really think, when a spell is nerfed, the option should be given to relevel.  It's not out of the realm of possibilities.  There are servers where you can relevel automatically just by talking to an NPC and clicking on "relevel.

Sometimes, you just want to adjust your game to reflect what's happening around you.  And that option doesn't exist after spell nerfs here.  It's frustrating. 

True that, and not very hard to do from the looks of it, at least so I am told by computer savy people.

~Rex
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ethinos on June 13, 2008, 03:15:13 PM
If you have a valid reason for a relevel, I'm pretty sure the DM's will accomodate you. It's never been forbidden.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Khuzadrepa on June 15, 2008, 02:14:11 PM
I really think, when a spell is nerfed, the option should be given to relevel.
I think this is fair.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Ruxandra on June 16, 2008, 01:19:24 AM
Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken.

It's debatable honestly. Demiplanes, unlike other full-fledged planes can indeed change their metaphysical and even (though horribly rare) physical laws so that magic, physics and other "realities" in them flux and change do to whim of the originator of the plane or planar occurances.

What you're asking for, while understandably reasonable to want to change, is also the equivalent of a warrior-type character asking for releveling to change his feats because a new batch of monsters was added in a recent module addition that they'd like to fight, or they found a newly created item or weapon they want to use. After all, no one bats an eye when someone marries themselves to an awful weapon (like say a light hammer) and finds out light hammers are woefully awful or lacking on this module.

Given there are a good many "extra" feats added to the level-up scheme and just because one spell was changed doesn't mean the entire metafeat is useless at all (no metafeat works on only *one* spell after all), I'd probably suggest only considering it if said character was at it's maximum level honestly. The world changes and goes on, so long as a character has the potential to adapt (level up, gain new feats), I don't see any reason why they should suddenly wake up one morning forgetting how to get the most out of a spell and instead extending it as if knowing such an ability never happened.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Rex on June 16, 2008, 01:07:38 PM
Yeah that's actually been delt with before in many settings (When DnD editions changed, many casters were WTF?  Darn this used to work), and it gets handled.  They don't just POOF, never knew it not effected by it.

Now Stat and feat changes maybe I can see a rebuild, Like you dumped 15 points into craft armor and the server took it away because they implemented a CNR type system, that's a rebuild case.

Spell not so much.

I don't mind it that much that this is getting shunted off into by the book levels, by the book is always fine by me, but there needs to be some quid pro quo if that's going to be the main reason.

~Rex
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Bad_Bud on June 16, 2008, 03:34:10 PM
Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken.

It's debatable honestly. Demiplanes, unlike other full-fledged planes can indeed change their metaphysical and even (though horribly rare) physical laws so that magic, physics and other "realities" in them flux and change do to whim of the originator of the plane or planar occurances.

What you're asking for, while understandably reasonable to want to change, is also the equivalent of a warrior-type character asking for releveling to change his feats because a new batch of monsters was added in a recent module addition that they'd like to fight, or they found a newly created item or weapon they want to use. After all, no one bats an eye when someone marries themselves to an awful weapon (like say a light hammer) and finds out light hammers are woefully awful or lacking on this module.

Given there are a good many "extra" feats added to the level-up scheme and just because one spell was changed doesn't mean the entire metafeat is useless at all (no metafeat works on only *one* spell after all), I'd probably suggest only considering it if said character was at it's maximum level honestly. The world changes and goes on, so long as a character has the potential to adapt (level up, gain new feats), I don't see any reason why they should suddenly wake up one morning forgetting how to get the most out of a spell and instead extending it as if knowing such an ability never happened.

I don't think that's a fair comparison.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ThAnswr on June 16, 2008, 03:57:11 PM
Maybe this is OT, but this is my biggest beef with spell nerfs:  You take a feat such as "Maximize Spell" when the duration is "1 hour per level".  Please, no arguing as to whether or not that is "too powerful" because it was what it was when the feat was taken.

It's debatable honestly. Demiplanes, unlike other full-fledged planes can indeed change their metaphysical and even (though horribly rare) physical laws so that magic, physics and other "realities" in them flux and change do to whim of the originator of the plane or planar occurances.

What you're asking for, while understandably reasonable to want to change, is also the equivalent of a warrior-type character asking for releveling to change his feats because a new batch of monsters was added in a recent module addition that they'd like to fight, or they found a newly created item or weapon they want to use. After all, no one bats an eye when someone marries themselves to an awful weapon (like say a light hammer) and finds out light hammers are woefully awful or lacking on this module.

Given there are a good many "extra" feats added to the level-up scheme and just because one spell was changed doesn't mean the entire metafeat is useless at all (no metafeat works on only *one* spell after all), I'd probably suggest only considering it if said character was at it's maximum level honestly. The world changes and goes on, so long as a character has the potential to adapt (level up, gain new feats), I don't see any reason why they should suddenly wake up one morning forgetting how to get the most out of a spell and instead extending it as if knowing such an ability never happened.

I don't think that's a fair comparison.

It isn't, but I'm used to being marginalized.   :lol: 
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Kung Fu Orc on June 16, 2008, 04:52:06 PM
Please, no one play the Martyr here. It's irritating.

And for the record, MAXIMIZE increases ALL aspects of a spell, including length.

Rebuilding wizards around spells is a goddamned nightmare, because DM's have no way of knowing what your actual spellbook is, and we have to supply a boatload of scrolls based only on your "say" of what you had. Relevels just to change spells have been declined in the past, but -every- Relevel request is based on a case by case basis and you lose nothing by requesting it.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ThAnswr on June 16, 2008, 05:13:51 PM
Please, no one play the Martyr here. It's irritating.

Gee, I'm sorry.  :lol:

And for the record, MAXIMIZE increases ALL aspects of a spell, including length.

Really? Are you sure you're not confusing "Maximize Spell" with "Extend Spell"?

This is "Maximize Spell":

Quote
Type of Feat: Metamagic

Prerequisite: Cast 3rd-level spells

Specifics: Maximized spells apply all variable numeric effects, including damage, number of targets, and so on, at their maximum values.

Use: A maximized spell occupies a spell slot three levels higher than normal. Saving throws and opposed rolls, such as those made when dispel magic is cast, are not affected.


This is "Extend Spell":

Quote
Type of feat: Metamagic

Prerequisite: Cast 1st-level spells

Specifics: Extended spells have their duration doubled, lasting twice as long as normal.

Use: An extended spell occupies a spell slot one level higher than normal. Spells with a duration of instantaneous or permanent are not affected.


http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Feats

I believe you are confusing the two.  If a spell lasts, for example 1-hr per level, that's what it lasts unless you take the "Extend" feat. 

If that information is wrong, someone please point it out to me. 


Rebuilding wizards around spells is a goddamned nightmare, because DM's have no way of knowing what your actual spellbook is, and we have to supply a boatload of scrolls based only on your "say" of what you had. Relevels just to change spells have been declined in the past, but -every- Relevel request is based on a case by case basis and you lose nothing by requesting it.


Again, gee I'm sorry.   :lol:
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: Bad_Bud on June 16, 2008, 05:22:22 PM
NWN won't let you maximize spells with a duration (and no dice values).  Mage armor, for instance, you can't maximize, but you can extend.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: mayvind on June 16, 2008, 05:31:46 PM
Please, no one play the Martyr here. It's irritating.

And for the record, MAXIMIZE increases ALL aspects of a spell, including length.

Rebuilding wizards around spells is a goddamned nightmare, because DM's have no way of knowing what your actual spellbook is, and we have to supply a boatload of scrolls based only on your "say" of what you had. Relevels just to change spells have been declined in the past, but -every- Relevel request is based on a case by case basis and you lose nothing by requesting it.

As for rebuild a wizzy class, why the  we need to rebuild it if they nerf the spell? we can practically learn every wizzy spell out there just pick other spell into the spell slot and that that.

As for Sorc class, just pick a different one upon leveling or releveling 1 level.

Max spell do not increase duration only the max damage in regard of caster level. a fire ball 1d6  per level till 10 level caster meaning the max fire ball do 60 spell damage and 30 damage if target saves agaist the spell.

Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ThAnswr on June 16, 2008, 05:56:11 PM
Please, no one play the Martyr here. It's irritating.

And for the record, MAXIMIZE increases ALL aspects of a spell, including length.

Rebuilding wizards around spells is a goddamned nightmare, because DM's have no way of knowing what your actual spellbook is, and we have to supply a boatload of scrolls based only on your "say" of what you had. Relevels just to change spells have been declined in the past, but -every- Relevel request is based on a case by case basis and you lose nothing by requesting it.

As for rebuild a wizzy class, why the  we need to rebuild it if they nerf the spell? we can practically learn every wizzy spell out there just pick other spell into the spell slot and that that.

As for Sorc class, just pick a different one upon leveling or releveling 1 level.

Max spell do not increase duration only the max damage in regard of caster level. a fire ball 1d6  per level till 10 level caster meaning the max fire ball do 60 spell damage and 30 damage if target saves agaist the spell.



This thread is going waaay OT. But to clarify why I think there should be the option of releveling if a spell is nerf'ed is NOT for the spell, but for the feat, specifically buff spells. 

I'm not a technical kind of person, but I play on another server where you can choose to relevel without a DM's help.  Don't like your weapon focus ........ change it.  Wish you had taken Great Fortitude instead of Great whatever ................ change it.  Just talk to the nice NPC lady and tell her you want to relevel ........... voila!  No one questions it and no one cares because one of the big rules on that server is:  Don't tell someone else how they "should" play their game.   

I am now leaving the soapbox.   :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ethinos on June 16, 2008, 06:33:35 PM
Again, who said the option of releveling wasn't an option, ThAnswr?
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ThAnswr on June 16, 2008, 07:32:42 PM
Again, who said the option of releveling wasn't an option, ThAnswr?

Of course, anyone can apply for a relevel which may or may NOT be approved.  Who said they couldn't?

My point is rules get changed, spells get nerf'ed, but never is the option of releveling given.  Not asked for, given.   That is the point. 

I think an automatic releveling option after a rule change or spell nerf is an issue that should be brought before the Community Council because it is not just a personal issue, but affects the community at large. 
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ethinos on June 16, 2008, 07:48:41 PM
At the same time, modifications to monstrous templates, the rest/death systems, updated patches from Bioware, updated haks from the Devs, and who knows how many other things could cause a current PC to be less effective than it was before.

If a player really considers that a nerf, change, or modificiation has been serious enough that it warrants a rebuild/relevel, I'm sure the folks that handle those applications will be considerate and reasonable.

Sometimes players need to take some personal initiative.
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ThAnswr on June 16, 2008, 08:16:55 PM
At the same time, modifications to monstrous templates, the rest/death systems, updated patches from Bioware, updated haks from the Devs, and who knows how many other things could cause a current PC to be less effective than it was before.

If a player really considers that a nerf, change, or modificiation has been serious enough that it warrants a rebuild/relevel, I'm sure the folks that handle those applications will be considerate and reasonable.

Sometimes players need to take some personal initiative.

This is not a personal issue nor is it one of personal initiative.  It is a community issue as rule changes and spell nerfs affects the community.  Granted, some more than others.  And since I believe it is a community issue, I will bring it before the Community Council. 

Having said that, I believe this horse is not only dead, but has been beaten into unrecognizable pulp. 
Title: Re: Undeath to Death
Post by: ethinos on June 16, 2008, 08:18:32 PM
Send me the PM and I'll post it on the Council boards for review.