Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist
Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) => Module Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: DM Macabre on May 29, 2008, 03:48:54 AM
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For suggestions for the new herbalist system:
There is an unused cauldron in the Midway Haven Upper House Ground Floor. Can it be made a herbalist cauldron?
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Midway Haven will most likely be used for alchemy.
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Ooo.. that sounds promising! :D
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Wouldn't the Wizards Tower be useful as well?
~Rex
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sewers: Some mushrooms and lichen could easily grow in the abandoned tunnels. Make it more tempting to silly top siders to venture in forbidden territory , too it just makes sense.
Docks and Noble's district didnt seem to have any lichen or mushrooms to offer.
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Haven't seen any herbs in and around Barovia. Perhaps I was just blind, otherwise some herbs over that place would be nice!
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Soren called out that the initial area would be only local to Vallaki initially - I think in the update...
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Nice idea from Nef.
Some shrooms located in the Abandonned Tunnels would make for some nice role playing. Characters can then choose to either risk sneaking or stomping in to get the shrooms, or offer to buy the shrooms, or be a friend to the faction and have easy access, or of course be an outcast who has easy access.
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*Kalan goes about replanting fungus all over the Drain*
:lol: :lol: :shock:
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It might be nice to see the herbs more scattered around barovia and not just in all the low level dungeons. With this new epidemic, which I don't forsee passing anytime soon, it really hurts the low levels who are getting crappy spawns after a hit from the Herb Hunters of higher level.
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Ive been going everywhere invisible myself to not grab the spawn, that and haste is a slight advantage. Needs this much herbs around barovia village, that would be fantastic.
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One thing that confuses me is that if it's just a 'sample' of the herb you're taking, shouldn't it not despawn once you take it? Maybe it could be designed to not vanish after you take a sample for at least 3-4 uses, but that it would prevent players from taking multiple samples from the same spot. That way availablility would be better.
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One thing that confuses me is that if it's just a 'sample' of the herb you're taking, shouldn't it not despawn once you take it? Maybe it could be designed to not vanish after you take a sample for at least 3-4 uses, but that it would prevent players from taking multiple samples from the same spot. That way availablility would be better.
i said the same thing in my suggestions
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The herbs are currently only to be found around vallaki, because it has to be added to other area's yet, so I guess availability will increase over time (so, when they get added throughout the whole module).
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Suggestion for the zones around vallaki
-Drain/abandoned tunels could use bleak cap
-Old temple of Nerull could use some ghost cap
The idea is to keep them not all cooped up in the lowbie zones so they arent overfarmed by higher lvls.
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The herbs now spawn all over the entire world!
Suggestion: The Old Svalich Road Cavern and Bandit Crypt had nothing in them, seems like they should.
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We have a bandit cyrpt?
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yes
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:evil: Barovia's herbalist needs to be set up as an herbalist. (Isabella is it?)
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Isabela with one L!
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One thing that confuses me is that if it's just a 'sample' of the herb you're taking, shouldn't it not despawn once you take it? Maybe it could be designed to not vanish after you take a sample for at least 3-4 uses, but that it would prevent players from taking multiple samples from the same spot. That way availablility would be better.
Or just implement a new section to the crafting. Something like... foraging. The better your level of it, the more herbs you can pick at once, and so on. Not too sure how the technical stuff would work as it would be a pain to fail picking honey lilies. -Shrug.-
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One thing that confuses me is that if it's just a 'sample' of the herb you're taking, shouldn't it not despawn once you take it? Maybe it could be designed to not vanish after you take a sample for at least 3-4 uses, but that it would prevent players from taking multiple samples from the same spot. That way availablility would be better.
Or just implement a new section to the crafting. Something like... foraging. The better your level of it, the more herbs you can pick at once, and so on. Not too sure how the technical stuff would work as it would be a pain to fail picking honey lilies. -Shrug.-
It is possible to fail at picking a flower, perhaps you mangled it beyond any use or cut the wrong part or the plant was not in a useful stage of growth.. could make a pruning knife item as crafting tool
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One thing that confuses me is that if it's just a 'sample' of the herb you're taking, shouldn't it not despawn once you take it? Maybe it could be designed to not vanish after you take a sample for at least 3-4 uses, but that it would prevent players from taking multiple samples from the same spot. That way availablility would be better.
Or just implement a new section to the crafting. Something like... foraging. The better your level of it, the more herbs you can pick at once, and so on. Not too sure how the technical stuff would work as it would be a pain to fail picking honey lilies. -Shrug.-
It is possible to fail at picking a flower, perhaps you mangled it beyond any use or cut the wrong part or the plant was not in a useful stage of growth.. could make a pruning knife item as crafting tool
Could potentially make it more challenging, as well. Like the armoring/smithing/etc, as they all have multiple skills required to become a lesser-Torgan.
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empty spirits bottles and other RP items found in loot that have no present use in crafting could be tagged to work with herbalism components. Then the "dusty old bottle" could even impose a +1 or +2 DC to the craft check made using it, because it is not in prestine condition.
then...dusty old bottles would be available to those PCs who can't exactly convince an NPC to sell them perfect bottles 8)
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Id like to see the bottles costing more than 2fangs, templates all around for crafting stuff are between 5-20g if not more. A tad unbalanced.
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Tanning Acid for leather workers is one gold per bottle, so I don't see why an empty bottle would cost more. A gold per bottle empty bottle seems fair, since even with the old craft system empty vials for potion making were 1 a peice.
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Here's a suggestion I have: For more powerful potions (Like haste, negative energy, etc.), could we have separate bottles to be sold for like 25-50gp? Just to make them challenging enough that people probably wouldn't want to risk making them unless they were -very- proficient in the skill.
The reason I say this is becuase my character currently has like a 75% chance of failure on some of those uber ones, but he more or less doesn't worry about failure becuase, well, he loses out on a whopping 5 gold each attempt.
We should keep the standard 5gp bottles for most recipes, though. Making it too pricey would scare away everyone who isn't over level 10. I just suggest making the higher-level potions higher in price. I mean, think about the end result: If I can 100% brew those neg energy potions, that's about 20 potions I can make for 100 gold that normally cost 750 gold EACH as scrolls from NPC shops... 100 gp from 20 vs. 750 PER bottle... Yeah, you get the idea.
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Well, I can see the reasoning in more pricy bottles for powerful potions, but it would be a bit of a hassle to implement that at current - and - probably make the recipes even more obscure.
However, the more powerful potions require more ingredients and several types, so it will certainly be more expensive in a way. Especially when the current exploit is resolves and people won't be able to haul too large amounts at once anyway ;)
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Since the herbs don't stack, they tend to suck up a lot of inventory anyway. I still think it would be nice if they recieved the same mark up in resale from a store, as the other Crafting Components.
~Rex
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Fortunately there is an artificial cap... availability of resources.
It took 9-10 hours over 3 days of dungeon whoring only yielded about 7-8 of grave mold and ghost caps
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I don't know if this is the right place to say this, but I'm VERY HAPPY that herbalism has been implemented. It would stop us whoring out to the vardo's for healing every day.
Plus, we could now slowly remove healing potions from shops and make it only -pc wise you can get them. Just like crafted weapons :D
AND SOME CRAFTED FIND ME IN GAME PLEASE, I WANT POTIONS!!!!
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Since the herbs don't stack, they tend to suck up a lot of inventory anyway. I still think it would be nice if they recieved the same mark up in resale from a store, as the other Crafting Components.
Yeah, I got it on my list to have them have some sort of price. Would prefer if people didn't get too much out of selling the items though.
I don't know if this is the right place to say this, but I'm VERY HAPPY that herbalism has been implemented. It would stop us whoring out to the vardo's for healing every day.
Thanks, glad you're enjoying it :)
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I don't know if this is the right place to say this, but I'm VERY HAPPY that herbalism has been implemented. It would stop us whoring out to the vardo's for healing every day.
Plus, we could now slowly remove healing potions from shops and make it only -pc wise you can get them. Just like crafted weapons :D
Except that as the crafters die or retire then potions become unavailable... there was a time a while back you REALLY struggled to find a steel smith... you can live without steel armour and sword... potions on the other hand form the barrier between life and death at times.
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AND SOME CRAFTED FIND ME IN GAME PLEASE, I WANT POTIONS!!!!
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=11352.0
Seriously, I have several pounds of potions I would very much like to get rid of.
And if more people would sell me their herbs and fungus instead of hoarding them for who knows what reason, I coudl spend more time selling things instead of gathering.
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agreed same for me your greedy evil folks :lol:
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I wasnt hoarding - I was gathering for someone
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One thing I really do like about herbalism is the fact that since one can potentially make some really amazing potions (buff potions, haste, neg energy protection, ex. retreat, etc.), it means that a non-caster has the potential to hold fair chances in battle when they don't have a buffer with them.
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I'm wondering if the current herbalism system would also allow the creation of "poisons", such as inflict minor/light/medium/serious wounds potions?
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I wasnt hoarding - I was gathering for someone
They're not MY herbs.. I'm just holding them for a friend
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I wonder if it could be possible in the future to create potions with dispell magic to be used like grenades against witches. That would create some interesting challenge for witches that like to run around fully buffed destroying people.
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Except those potions would all be a CL 5 vs a minimum caster level 11 mage.. nearly worthless. They might get mage armor or a stat buff, if you're lucky.. though. Not too useful though.
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Lesser Spell Breach
Greater Spell Breach
Mord. Disjunction (Probably too powerful for a potion though)
Enough said. :twisted:
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dont make herbalism too powerfull craft, if there starts to appear minimages tossing down potions of stoneskin, dispells, flame weapons etc.. things are quite effectively going towards hell
since everyone does it, and it doesnt take anything else but time to practice
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People are doing herbalism for the nearly free potions, not cause herbalism has anything to do with the character. (Okay, yes, I know there are herbalist characters besides Kalan, but still... Seems like a whole herd of herbalists has sprung up.)
And things like flame weapon... maybe, I guess. Stoneskin? Definately not. Maybe Barkskin. In the top tiers.
Also... Is this herbalism things supposed to be "natural"? Cause... some of it doesn't really seem to be much different from "witchery." Seriously... Someone walking around all sparkly after drinking a potion of endure elements then trying to say "Oh, it's natural. It's herbalism!" isn't going to appease a anti-witch mob... And about native herbalists using herbalism like invisibility...
"We are the Kalan. Lower your weapons and surrender your herbist components. We will add your herbal and fungal distinctiveness to our own. Your recipes will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
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More or less... I'm thinking now of making a crafter PC. A guy that does nothing but craft... ALL crafts.
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dont make herbalism too powerfull craft, if there starts to appear minimages tossing down potions of stoneskin, dispells, flame weapons etc.. things are quite effectively going towards hell
since everyone does it, and it doesnt take anything else but time to practice
Of course, if it comes to a point that herbalism gets too powerful, it's quite simple to us to reduce the amount of ingredients spawned. I don't think the current amount has potential to cause issues. People might find just enough ingredients to have potions to help them through the more dangerous situations and besting the powerful foes at the center of a dungeon, but it's still much more effective (and less time consuming) to have a spellcaster along to do the buffs instead.
I don't believe the current popularity even has anything to do with the potential powers of herbalism, but much more because people simply have found something new to explore, and a different purpose to adventuring, which, I think, we have been lacking.
Also... Is this herbalism things supposed to be "natural"? Cause... some of it doesn't really seem to be much different from "witchery." Seriously... Someone walking around all sparkly after drinking a potion of endure elements then trying to say "Oh, it's natural. It's herbalism!" isn't going to appease a anti-witch mob... And about native herbalists using herbalism like invisibility...
If anything is going to be perceived as witchery, it's going to be someone standing over a giant cauldron and drop down mysterious ingredients for miraculous effects. Natural? Perhaps, but still magical, and definitely witchery.
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Also... Is this herbalism things supposed to be "natural"? Cause... some of it doesn't really seem to be much different from "witchery." Seriously... Someone walking around all sparkly after drinking a potion of endure elements then trying to say "Oh, it's natural. It's herbalism!" isn't going to appease a anti-witch mob...
I dunno, but Sedrick 'threw' a potion of endure elements on Jinx and she wasn't pleased. Reverse snowfall seems a sure tip off something isn't 'natural' to her mind.
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I still think that herbalism should go off of int and wis not wis and con just because we got some other craft coming in thats going to use wis and int i dont see why herbalism cant as well. Also there is a balancing factor of giving non casters a chance to do these things vs the casters. I think i'm also justified in saying this too as i've played castesr and non ones for crafting too and there's a large difference. Up to just recently florence spent proably the most time running around getting herbs and crafting them. Yet she's still lvl 1 vs others not just saying kalan or vasten here btw that are clerics/druids/etc are doing this less and way higher all because they can buff themselves and already got a nice high wis and con
Cast in point i saw a lvl 4 cleric do this for a little while with flo's help this person is now lvl 2 proably 3 now in the craft.
Wis = sense of perception of things and common sense etc
Int = knowledge and use of something that your doing
Con = bodily health and foritude towards life etc. How does it factor with herbs less your eating them in the crafting?
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Ability to withstand the noxious fumes that belch from the pot during the process of brewing, perhaps?
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Sedrik is level 8 and has to make the buff potions to help brew with.
Perhaps the con is your ability to stir for long periods of time, or the ability to resist a hot spoon you forgot to take out of the cauldron!
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that's... a combo!
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Since people seem to be getting Megan bugged quite a bit lately...
All it takes to fix the Out of Bottles thing is to sell her a bottle.
I've never had it disappear myself, but many times I've come in there to find the bottles not in her store.
Usually I have a couple bottles cause I often miscalculated on a previous visit and ended up with extras.
But as I usually only do a handful of hard potions at a time now, it happens less.
Please, if you bug Megan, sell her a potion back.
Emphatic please: More herbalist stations set up! Like Isabela in Barovia, at the very least.
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Or maybe the Wizards Tower out in the mountains. Would still like to see a resale increase at Murnu's for the herbs. Every other crafting resource COSTS more to buy it back from him, and the Herbs are still 1 for 1.
Makes a handy little holding station for some I suppose but since he's such a cheap ass lately, I don't see why he should be operating a Pawn Shop for herbalist while he rakes you over the coals for everything else. Some things that he will BUY for 6 or 7, he sells for 30 or 40. Herbs should be in the same boat.
~Rex
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At the point now where I am feeling sorry for people. For the Non Casters that is. There are a multitude of people that have put tons of RP into Herb anything, that are not Magical Powerhouse PC's (And yes there are some casters that have done this as well).
Still. Watching a good Herbalist/Chirurgeon/Midwife/evil cackling Macbeth Cauldron Owner, get trampled in the race by the uber buffed, is kind of sad.
I would suggest, figuring out a way to tie in the Character sheet crafting skills, to help balance this out. Also, with no resale mark up, all herbs appraise at the same, and it is causing issue's, and that's before you get into the clique handouts as mentioned by others in other threads.
Right now the Buff Meisters can get to the spawns faster, craft it faster, raise in CXP faster, dedicate a fraction of the time to reap 100 times the reward, and that's a very imbalancing thing in the long run where we have already had issue with people carrying a million gallons of liquid, and lag storming any event while they start chugging a small apothacary before they take the first swing.
I say, set the system (the entire crafting system) up to Ignore Buffs. This brings the entire crafting system onto a field of skill rather then How many numbers can I pile on my stat. Tie in the Character sheet skills (many a server modifies those I'm sure the folks here can to), so that folks can spend skill points on them as well (and perhaps add some new backgrounds to reflect this giving another bonus). Doing so would level the playing field, the Buff meisters still have an advantage in collecting, but now those with skill points can compete, without having to worry about 9 zillion spells going off around them the stigmata (for the most part) of witchery and well, my personal favorite, the BERSERK rage using weapons crafter working with Molten metal.
I would also make these Potions Fragile, in the form of Not being able to stack them. More use for custom containers. In addtiions, one could add a variety of tools, to also help out. Master Crafted smelting tongs etc etc etc, for a bonus that makes more in game sense then RRRRRRAAAAAGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! *Slam Slam Slam Slam*
Casters got the best of the playing field anyway let's give the skill guy something for once.
~Rex
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I say, set the system (the entire crafting system) up to Ignore Buffs. This brings the entire crafting system onto a field of skill rather then How many numbers can I pile on my stat.
This part I agree with in particular, but it poses to problems - one, how to explain it logically in character, and two, the fact that people wouldn't get their custom sub-racial ability bonuses, since they are effects as well. The first could be solved by saying that the crafting would in reality last much longer than the buffs could last, but the second is more complex. It might be possible though with a bit of tinkering.
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I know i've said this before but I really think the stats that were choosen needs to be looked at as I and quite a few others dont agree with it. COn/WIS to be just doesnt fit
con = health and stength of body
wis = common sense and perseception (this is good for herbliasm)
instead of con I dont see why it cant be int/wis thats choosen even if another system if giong to have it why cant herbalism too?
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I say, set the system (the entire crafting system) up to Ignore Buffs. This brings the entire crafting system onto a field of skill rather then How many numbers can I pile on my stat.
This part I agree with in particular, but it poses to problems - one, how to explain it logically in character, and two, the fact that people wouldn't get their custom sub-racial ability bonuses, since they are effects as well. The first could be solved by saying that the crafting would in reality last much longer than the buffs could last, but the second is more complex. It might be possible though with a bit of tinkering.
Couldn't you set it up then to recognize Subrace, and even apply Racial bonuses to certain crafts as a result? Wouldn't need more then a Check Race add +2 or so I would think to balance it out.
~Rex
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I say, set the system (the entire crafting system) up to Ignore Buffs. This brings the entire crafting system onto a field of skill rather then How many numbers can I pile on my stat.
This part I agree with in particular, but it poses to problems - one, how to explain it logically in character, and two, the fact that people wouldn't get their custom sub-racial ability bonuses, since they are effects as well. The first could be solved by saying that the crafting would in reality last much longer than the buffs could last, but the second is more complex. It might be possible though with a bit of tinkering.
Kalan's modifiers without buffs were, at the beginning, +0-5-1+3
That's -3. Granted, it was still somewhat feasible to hit a DC 15 on a natural 18, 19, or 20, so after a bit it would have been +1+0-1+3=+3. Let's look at another.
When Ulfga started Gilding, she got this as her modifiers: +0-5+2+2
That's -1. So she got 1d20-1 for a DC 20 task. The crafting system doesn't give natural 20s any consideration, so she would have been unable to gild unless I was able to raise a stat to the point of give a +3 and then I'd have to roll a 20 to make that -5 go away. Gilding is expensive enough as it is, WITH buffs. All those failures I already get with buffs are frustrating enough, thank you.
Ulfga didn't start out as a wizard either. I took wizard levels for expeditious retreat and a familiar to scout with when she's heavily overburdened. :lol: For the longest time she was just a level 2 Fighter. Honestly, buffs didn't really speed things up THAT much. Expeditious retreat is the thing that sped up smithing...
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I've done most of the crafts with Torgan, and only used his rage in the beginning to start getting successes, and only in the later points to guarantee success of crafting someone's fully customized full plate armor (because wasting 1000 fangs and 20 mins someone spent modifying the template sucks).
However, I've done all the crafts for the most part without self-buffing. It's possible, and its not that hard. Some crafts though aren't going to be feasible if you have some crappy stats tied to it, but that should be expected. A skinny fellow won't make a good smith for example.
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I'm telling you, buy is the way to go unless you feel lucky with the cauldron. :lol:
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Even the buying is difficult because there is no merchant value with the Herbs (there is with the potions and you can make a TON of money, selling effectively Free material to Murnu).
As for the Buffs not being an advantage, Not true, Otherwise you wouldn't be constantly stampeded by one christmas tree thing or another or waiting in line behind them while they don't even bother going around the corner anymore to fire off 56 spells to begin crafting.
Getting rid of the Buff recognition all together, still leaves them an advantage in harvest, but puts everyone on equal terms in the growth and development of a trade that quite frankly, can break the game. A recognize race function can be added (in theory), to take into fact subrace stats, and even give some bonus to certain races, and perhaps most of all, something can be done with the basic craft skills on the sheet, to allow for skill points to be spent as well to for those really into character development.
~Rex
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Id rather see people with roleplay behind their craft than just because the stats allows it. A monk out of no where that begins potion crafting "just because he's good at it" kinda itch me.
But so far having a character dedicated to helping the crafters, it's been a great experience.
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The problem with having buffs work for crafting is that it basically gives spellcasters an edge in all crafts.
I still think wisdom and constitution is the best way to go, unless we're going to revise the system completely, and put in whole different factors. These stats make it balanced toward monks, rangers, druids and clerics. Rangers and druids might seem the most obvious, but people of monasteries have through history always been keenly interested in herbs and their curative effects, and every monastery had it's own garden dedicated to growing them.
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The problem with having buffs work for crafting is that it basically gives spellcasters an edge in all crafts.
I still think wisdom and constitution is the best way to go, unless we're going to revise the system completely, and put in whole different factors. These stats make it balanced toward monks, rangers, druids and clerics. Rangers and druids might seem the most obvious, but people of monasteries have through history always been keenly interested in herbs and their curative effects, and every monastery had it's own garden dedicated to growing them.
Low con people tend to be allergic anyway. Also, covering MILES upon Miles of terrain to find the stuff, get it back, prep it, brew it, etc etc etc. Spend 8 hours grinding leaves to powder with a pestle and well, I can see Con playing a part in the process.
Those buffs get flushed I see the majority of the lightweights dropping out of the process and then, the true blue Herbalists and Midwives and other heavy hitter RP reasons for doing it, get a chance to shine at something.
~Rex
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Herbalists can make a buff potion for each of the 6 attributes... :lol:
Seriously, though... the -1 from CON bites. Even with the +4 from WIS. Especially with the -5 crap.
Take the buffs away and Kalan becomes a sad little caliban and probably gives up on herbalism altogether. :cry:
Screw his Plant domain herbalist witch of Hala background. :evil:
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Buffs are the equivelant of an "Easy" button. This is Barovia, not Staples.
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Big lack of red cap and over abundance of beggar's cup. I cant find more than 2-3 redcap at all.
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Big lack of red cap and over abundance of beggar's cup. I cant find more than 2-3 redcap at all.
I think the description of red cap states they are rare, while beggar's cup is the staple of many beggars diets. There should be considerably more of the beggar's cup, based on that.
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Or for the people whining about buffs becuase they can't cast buffs, why don't you try asking buffers to buff you (or buy potions from herbalists that do those buffs).
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Or for the people whining about buffs becuase they can't cast buffs, why don't you try asking buffers to buff you (or buy potions from herbalists that do those buffs).
i'm not whining about non buffs i'm just arguing that int/wis or int/con or something would make more sense due to int being KNOWLEDGE of mixing of plants etc
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I'm not talking about that, Robert. I'm talking about the noise making over buffs being used for helping crafting. It's stupid.
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I'm not talking about that, Robert. I'm talking about the noise making over buffs being used for helping crafting. It's stupid.
ah ok sorry mis understood :)
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They could always script a DC check for collecting based on healing skill. Then only people with a reason to know what to collect would be able to.
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They could always script a DC check for collecting based on healing skill. Then only people with a reason to know what to collect would be able to.
Healings an Application Skill, though a Healing/Lore thing would be interesting. I know more then a few folk that can do CPR or splint a leg that couldn't tell you the difference between Milkweed and Thistle.
~Rex
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Yeah, it was pretty funny when we all randomely started collecting crap from crypts and fields and talking about it like we suddenly had taken classes on herbalism.
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Yeah, it was pretty funny when we all randomely started collecting crap from crypts and fields and talking about it like we suddenly had taken classes on herbalism.
and that among so much is my biggest beef with alot of the herbalist that popped up suddenly :)
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The bookstore started selling a book titled "101 herbs and fungi".
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The bookstore started selling a book titled "101 herbs and fungi".
The Basics of Herbalism Volume I: Herbs by Kalan Potrov
The Basics of Herbalism Volume II: Fungi by Kalan Potrov
The Basics of Herbalism Volume III: The Rule of Similarity by Kalan Potrov
:lol: :shock: :lol: :shock: :lol: :shock: :lol:
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I saw the books! They were pretty nice.
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Can we get ingredients with the same effects to work in the same potion?
For instance, combining Wolftail and Bleak Cap make a potion of cowardice.
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I saw a potion of ghostly visage recently. Is this an herbalism potion? If so, I think herbalism may have gone too far into the magical realm of effects.
Make you stronger, feel braver, heal faster, etc., sure. Many drugs/herbs in the real world will do that.
Make you turn into a ghost? Uh, I think that more properly belongs in the realm of something like enchanting.
Exactly how does a mixture of herbs make your quasi-incorporeal? I dunno, but I think maybe herbalism needs to be reined in a bit to be a bit more... mundane with its effects. Even invisibility potions is a bit much I think.
I'm starting to be getting more of a Forgetten Realms feel lately, than the more lower magic Ravenloft.
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Those spells were always there and available, anyone with a bit of UMD or mage levels can use scrolls. Now it's just more widely sold.
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Scrolls and UMD aren't universal though and my concern is that mixing herbs shouldn't create such powerful effects.
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I saw a potion of ghostly visage recently. Is this an herbalism potion? If so, I think herbalism may have gone too far into the magical realm of effects.
Make you stronger, feel braver, heal faster, etc., sure. Many drugs/herbs in the real world will do that.
Make you turn into a ghost? Uh, I think that more properly belongs in the realm of something like enchanting.
Exactly how does a mixture of herbs make your quasi-incorporeal? I dunno, but I think maybe herbalism needs to be reined in a bit to be a bit more... mundane with its effects. Even invisibility potions is a bit much I think.
I'm starting to be getting more of a Forgetten Realms feel lately, than the more lower magic Ravenloft.
What I had envisioned, when the talks of Herbalism started, was that we were going to get Herbalism. This would have been something cool, like various teas and tinctures, that did things like Add to saving throws, Minor stat adders (+1, +2), Drugs (sleep effect, paralysis effect, expeditious retreat effect), poultices that gave healing along the lines of a slow Regen (1-4 hitpoints per game hour), resistances to disease, resistance to poisons, hell, POISONS, parts for traps, treatment for disease that took time. Toss in Various types of healing kits that functioned at different levels of efficiency, Tools that could be made to boost healing, and even, Trap Parts.
What we have, is full blown EASY alchemy, that one doesn't even need the brew potion feat for, and is a thousand times more effective then just the old feat.
Highly disappointed. So far, all it's brought out is a ruptured economy, people running around with Hundreds of bottles of potions that do everything from protect one from death, to elements (herbalism salve against fire +5 save vs Fire. Current. Full Blown protection from Elements, 5 gp here you go), to making one a ghost etc etc etc......All the way up to every dungeon being a nigh scorched earth wasteland that can't recover from the drove upon drove of herb gatherers smashing through them.
It's not Herbalism, it's Alchemy. CHEAP EASY Alchemy at that. I don't like it, and if it weren't for the fact I'm being rail road-ed into supporting it, I wouldn't support it.
~Rex
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Herbalism should be tied in some way to skillsets (Healing+Lore) or the addition of a new feat/skill called Herbalism. The ranks in said skill get added to the DC roll that you make on creation. This would give a new skillset/feat choice for those who cater to the RP of being a Herbalist/brewer concept, as well.. forces those players that simply "want" the crafting ability to make the hard (or not so hard) decision on feat selection on the next level.
Yes this may seem a bit unfair to the high level characters that have been around for ages.. but those same said characters typically will have gear, items and abilities (powers) that most the rest of the community fail to have.. or never will have. So in effect it does level out the field a bit.
As for the EASY alchemy, I do agree with REX in this. I really didn't have a clue to the upcoming addition until it was implimented. Having a ranger/hunter, who does have a wide range of lore on wilderness (up and including herbs) I never played it up, since there was little representation in game for it's use, aside from simply adding the researched literature into text emotes for RP purposes. Now it's inplace, I welcome it, but at the same time I was expecting something simple and not an alternative source to Brew Potion feat.
I'm not dissappointed though.. Do not take this the wrong way, but I do feel it has only added more to those who are already powerful in game. The uber caster now just has another weapon in their arsenal of tricks. Not saying that a caster isn't already pre-disposed to the brew potion feat option, but why take it now when they can just use the CXP system for free. :?
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If anything it made fighters more powerful, not mages. Fighters can now resist elements and buff stats without breaking a sweat or having a "pocket mage".
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If anything it made fighters more powerful, not mages. Fighters can now resist elements and buff stats without breaking a sweat or having a "pocket mage".
Yes it has. But given that it enhances each and every class equally, the significance is moot. Given that the casters (not just mages) no longer need to memorize any of those buffs either. ;)
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If anything it made fighters more powerful, not mages. Fighters can now resist elements and buff stats without breaking a sweat or having a "pocket mage".
Yes it has. But given that it enhances each and every class equally, the significance is moot. Given that the casters (not just mages) no longer need to memorize any of those buffs either. ;)
Key point and a good one. Do not forget this also means that on the rare occasion, that they bring a non caster on a crawl with them, they don't have to buff the non caster, or themselves, and in effect, neutralize the buff duration nerf because now they have 500 gallons of bulls strength in a bag. They can LITERALLY, run around stat buffed all the time. For 5 gp.
Does it make Fighters more powerful .......No.......Though there probably is one, I haven't seen a Greater Magic Weapon Potion yet. The key thing to Casters is Spells. The Key things to Fighters is Gear and Skill. In effect, this Easy Alchemy is a road to turning a fighter into a pocket minor caster, instead of someone that should be "THE GUY, with THE SWORD." Now, it's a Chugging Contest.
I don't like it, I don't like Buffs being able to be used for ANY craft (And that is Not Stupid no matter what the Detractors Say), and would prefer a system that's more in line with real herbalism, with poultices, tinctures teas and what not that does stuff like minor regen, disease prevention, save adders, poisons and antidotes and the like, then the 600 Pack of Uber Buff now in a vented Can for easy chugging that we have now. Move Alchemy, into a magic related field like Enchantment, require the brew potion feat, scrap this herbalism, and do up some recipes that fit HERBS, as opposed to MAGIC.
~Rex
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Suggestions:
Potions of Camouflage
Potions of Amplify
Potions of See Invis
Potions of Ultravision
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Suggestions:
Potions of Camouflage
Potions of Amplify
Potions of See Invis
Potions of Ultravision
That's a caster in a bottle. So now you'll have a fighter who also masquarades as a caster when he/she chugs down a potion.
Does the caster get UMD in a bottle so they can use any weapon? Does the caster get "Protection from Spell Failure" when they don heavy armor? Where's the potion for "Use Martial/Exotic weapon"?
Frankly, the logic behind this "herbalism" is escaping me.
It's a lot of fun looking for these various herbalism components, but it doesn't make up for the system.
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Potions of See invis to counter to Potions of See invis
The others I just figure might be fun
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Potions of See invis to counter to Potions of See invis
The others I just figure might be fun
Wouldn't that be a hoot?
Can't you just see the RP:
"I can see you. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah." :P
"I can see you too. Mwahahahaha". :P
[chugs a potion] "Now you can't see me". :P
[chugs a potion] "Yes, I can." :P
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If anything it made fighters more powerful, not mages. Fighters can now resist elements and buff stats without breaking a sweat or having a "pocket mage".
Yes it has. But given that it enhances each and every class equally, the significance is moot. Given that the casters (not just mages) no longer need to memorize any of those buffs either. ;)
Key point and a good one. Do not forget this also means that on the rare occasion, that they bring a non caster on a crawl with them, they don't have to buff the non caster, or themselves, and in effect, neutralize the buff duration nerf because now they have 500 gallons of bulls strength in a bag. They can LITERALLY, run around stat buffed all the time. For 5 gp.
Does it make Fighters more powerful .......No.......Though there probably is one, I haven't seen a Greater Magic Weapon Potion yet. The key thing to Casters is Spells. The Key things to Fighters is Gear and Skill. In effect, this Easy Alchemy is a road to turning a fighter into a pocket minor caster, instead of someone that should be "THE GUY, with THE SWORD." Now, it's a Chugging Contest.
I don't like it, I don't like Buffs being able to be used for ANY craft (And that is Not Stupid no matter what the Detractors Say), and would prefer a system that's more in line with real herbalism, with poultices, tinctures teas and what not that does stuff like minor regen, disease prevention, save adders, poisons and antidotes and the like, then the 600 Pack of Uber Buff now in a vented Can for easy chugging that we have now. Move Alchemy, into a magic related field like Enchantment, require the brew potion feat, scrap this herbalism, and do up some recipes that fit HERBS, as opposed to MAGIC.
~Rex
I have to agree with Rex here.
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This is starting to get a bit too far away from the reality of things... Moving around constantly buffed for 5 gp?
The limitation of the availability puts a bar on the amount of potions that can be produced. Should the availability become a problem, we'll simply regulate that. In effect, if anything, the availability of potions is much lower now than before, given that we've removed the stores where people were hoarding hundreds of potions.
Additionally I'm honestly unmoved by any suggestions that it should be 'realistic' - if we did that, herbalism would be so inferior to magic that no one would ever bother doing it - and we'd have a massive ghost system in the module, demanding resources. Should we make magic realistic too then? Should it be just card tricks? What defines what can contain exceptional magic qualities and what should just be realism?
I do appreciate the discussions and feedback, but if it's just a personal crusade in extend of a continuous and ever ongoing pessimism, I'm personally not going to weight the words very heavily.
Potions have always been a part of DnD. It never rendered the advantage of having casters obsolete - it's just a handy thing to have at hand that might save you in a dire situation.
And finally, we've deliberately chosen to separate the crafts completely from the normal level progression, both because it makes little sense to have people progress by putting down foes, but also because we want to introduce more diversity in the fields of progression, providing more than just one single dimension.
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This is starting to get a bit too far away from the reality of things... Moving around constantly buffed for 5 gp?
The limitation of the availability puts a bar on the amount of potions that can be produced. Should the availability become a problem, we'll simply regulate that. In effect, if anything, the availability of potions is much lower now than before, given that we've removed the stores where people were hoarding hundreds of potions.
Additionally I'm honestly unmoved by any suggestions that it should be 'realistic' - if we did that, herbalism would be so inferior to magic that no one would ever bother doing it - and we'd have a massive ghost system in the module, demanding resources. Should we make magic realistic too then? Should it be just card tricks? What defines what can contain exceptional magic qualities and what should just be realism?
I do appreciate the discussions and feedback, but if it's just a personal crusade in extend of a continuous and ever ongoing pessimism, I'm personally not going to weight the words very heavily.
Potions have always been a part of DnD. It never rendered the advantage of having casters obsolete - it's just a handy thing to have at hand that might save you in a dire situation.
And finally, we've deliberately chosen to separate the crafts completely from the normal level progression, both because it makes little sense to have people progress by putting down foes, but also because we want to introduce more diversity in the fields of progression, providing more than just one single dimension.
Obviously this is directed at me so I'll answer it.
1. Bottle costs 5gp. Herbs are Free. Buffed up, it's no Issue to churn out a pile of Potions for 5 gp each. Dungeons are a wasteland of nothing now because buffed up Casters move out en'mass to clear cut the lands for every herb they can get. The non casters get the scraps. The Herbs Respawn faster then anything in the game. You can quite easily if you know the recipe, run around stat buffed for the entire duration of your game play, for the chicken feed Expense that equates to a one sewer area Rat Run. Which you have accumulated while stripping the sewers of all Herb spawns.
2. You removed potions from game forcing people that Didn't stock up on hundred of potions to turn to those people above, furthering their impact on the environment as a whole. The availability is not Lower if you can maintain a steady presence in game, you can find people willing to sell you HUNDREDS of potions at once.
3. Unmoved by suggestions that it should be realistic then you missed the point completely. A Real Herb system is immensely Useful, and I had mentioned moving the Magical Potions, to the domain of the casters, in the form of Alchemy, which is How Potions are in DnD. Hence it becomes the domain of those that should be able to do that (with the inclusion of the feat) and those that are not magical in nature, can have a system of non magical alternative that Fits the Setting, and would require very little in the term of ingredients resources or materials, using many things that are already In game therefore wouldn't have to be added. Herbalism SHOULD be inferior to magic. It's mundane.
4. As far as me being pessimistic about it an an ongoing campaign in such, well, sorry I'm not all peace and light. But being a Dane by heritage that makes me exceptionally stubborn, and if I see something I don't like and I can back it with point and fact, it's going to be heard. Besides, I am not the only one, so the inference of an "ongoing campaign" is not only incorrect, it's actually mean. I'm obviously not the only one that feels this way nor am I the one that brought up the point first. Yet, one can infer that your entire post was directed at me, and if not, it's certainly directed at players that have views I would defend, since both sides should be heard equally. Otherwise, all you do is end up back tracking to fix something that could have been prevented by hearing out the opposing side in the first place.
5. Yes potions have always been a part of DnD, However, you removed any and all decent gear for a non caster or sneak from the game, in the name of Low Magic, and yet now Unleash something that saturates the realm completely, in Magic? In Effect, giving people a zillion more options to be magical at the drop of a hat if you can guzzle a potion? Up top earlier you mentioned we removed the potions from the stores to solve one problem, YET, down here you renege that response with We need LOTS more potions because that's a part of DnD. Handy because it could save you? Balanced party does that and now we have even less of a reason to have one of those, because the Casters don't need spell slots to buff themselves up to fighter levels. Sneaks and Casters can now Equal Fighters in terms of AB and exceed them in terms of defense, at the expense of chicken feed. In addition to that an environment has been created to where the semi Casters (Paladins/Rangers), swarm into the lower level dungeons by the horde, or camp them, in order to collect the easy money to go back to the crafter casters, and buy a few hundred potions, to go maul the higher level dungeons.
6. Separating the Crafting Skills from the actual Leveling, is a great move. Never said anything against that. What I didn't like, was the Higher Levels that suddenly decided to jump the trade head on, have the insanely unfair advantage of buff after buff, completely skewing the entire system. Now, in the name of a computer game, we have a rather fast Crafting process, which is fine everyone should have time to play. But, in compromise to the real time required by the books, would be to set it up so Buffs Don't Work with the Crafting system. Right now, due to the OOC nature of Recipe exchanges and what not, the Non caster with a good friend on the side that knows the recipes, can quaff a few potions and start churning them out by the truckload as well. The 20 Con, Dwarf Barbarian with a high wisdom, and a pile of other dump stats is right around the corner as an Herb Crafter. Further destroying even the meager hope, of a low magic setting.
Had high hopes for seeing something that was representative of the setting, especially with the reams of material for herbs and plants and even drugs and posiond all over the Ravenloft Material. Don't get me wrong though I actually do appreciate the work that goes into this place. I still stand by the fact though that this is contrary to the nature of the setting, and well like others said, More Forgotten Realms, Less Ravenloft. Don't like it, nor to I liked being FORCED to RP it and the Support of It.
~Rex
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Doubt anyone's twisting your arm in supporting anything.
As for the rest, i think you're missing all the work the crafters have to do to get to the points of getting free potions, which none is at right now. Ask Deneve, ask Auska, ask Kalan, nothing is free, nothing is easy. Getting there certainly wasnt.
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As for the rest, i think you're missing all the work the crafters have to do to get to the points of getting free potions, which none is at right now. Ask Deneve, ask Auska, ask Kalan, nothing is free, nothing is easy. Getting there certainly wasnt.
Does that also mean that it took less than a month to get to top of it? :shock:
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[cracks knuckles] Well, here we go...
1. Bottle costs 5gp. Herbs are Free. Buffed up, it's no Issue to churn out a pile of Potions for 5 gp each. Dungeons are a wasteland of nothing now because buffed up Casters move out en'mass to clear cut the lands for every herb they can get. The non casters get the scraps. The Herbs Respawn faster then anything in the game. You can quite easily if you know the recipe, run around stat buffed for the entire duration of your game play, for the chicken feed Expense that equates to a one sewer area Rat Run. Which you have accumulated while stripping the sewers of all Herb spawns.[
Sure, people can get herbs for free, if they choose to spend the time gathering it, but they can get gold for free too if they spend time killing minks as well. Time isn't just free - you prioritize. If you are mid level, you can obtain much greater things for only a fraction of the time going into a fairly average dungeon that pose little risk. The only people this would provide a possible advantage of pursuing dedicatedly would be the very lowest level - and that's the ambition of the design. The lower levels will be able to meaningfully occupy themselves gathering herbs to then trade the ingredients to higher levels, producing a natural incitement for interaction and the associated roleplay.
What I'm more curious about though, is the persistence in completely ignoring the point that if this was the case, and the herbalism ingredients are too abundant, it would be exceptionally easy to regulate. Perhaps I'm not being clear enough about that point, but if it isn't that, I can only perceive it as crusading rather than argumentation.
2. You removed potions from game forcing people that Didn't stock up on hundred of potions to turn to those people above, furthering their impact on the environment as a whole. The availability is not Lower if you can maintain a steady presence in game, you can find people willing to sell you HUNDREDS of potions at once.
It'll never be more effective for gathering herbalism ingredients to frequent the dungeon areas as to moving around the landscape. You move through the open areas unhindered while you have to struggle your way through creature lairs. As such, the most effective way is to trade, as while all will pass ingredients as they move about - high and low - there's a diverse demand for it.
3. Unmoved by suggestions that it should be realistic then you missed the point completely. A Real Herb system is immensely Useful, and I had mentioned moving the Magical Potions, to the domain of the casters, in the form of Alchemy, which is How Potions are in DnD. Hence it becomes the domain of those that should be able to do that (with the inclusion of the feat) and those that are not magical in nature, can have a system of non magical alternative that Fits the Setting, and would require very little in the term of ingredients resources or materials, using many things that are already In game therefore wouldn't have to be added. Herbalism SHOULD be inferior to magic. It's mundane.
With fear of sounding cocky, didn't you just miss my point completely? What is mundane and what's not when transcending to a fantasy world (which Ravenloft, despite having magic being more rare, still undeniably is) is entirely subjective and up for each rendition of the world to define. That a magician can access supernatural magic but a herbalist cannot is exactly as subjective an evaluation as the opposite.
4. As far as me being pessimistic about it an an ongoing campaign in such, well, sorry I'm not all peace and light. But being a Dane by heritage that makes me exceptionally stubborn, and if I see something I don't like and I can back it with point and fact, it's going to be heard. Besides, I am not the only one, so the inference of an "ongoing campaign" is not only incorrect, it's actually mean. I'm obviously not the only one that feels this way nor am I the one that brought up the point first. Yet, one can infer that your entire post was directed at me, and if not, it's certainly directed at players that have views I would defend, since both sides should be heard equally. Otherwise, all you do is end up back tracking to fix something that could have been prevented by hearing out the opposing side in the first place.
Being a stubborn Dane myself, I'll firmly claim that this is not directed at anyone in person but at the turn the discussion has taken. My argument is exactly that it has moved far beyond what's fact. Call it mean if you want, I'd feel it perfectly sound to perceive the excessive pushing things in a negative direction beyond rational and balanced evaluation to be equally, if not more mean. If there's an issue of over-abundance, then approach that, but it's not benefiting either of us to assume a single-minded and exaggerating approach. How can you then expect those you approach to be anything but resilient toward listening to your concerns?
5. Yes potions have always been a part of DnD, However, you removed any and all decent gear for a non caster or sneak from the game, in the name of Low Magic, and yet now Unleash something that saturates the realm completely, in Magic? In Effect, giving people a zillion more options to be magical at the drop of a hat if you can guzzle a potion? Up top earlier you mentioned we removed the potions from the stores to solve one problem, YET, down here you renege that response with We need LOTS more potions because that's a part of DnD. Handy because it could save you? Balanced party does that and now we have even less of a reason to have one of those, because the Casters don't need spell slots to buff themselves up to fighter levels. Sneaks and Casters can now Equal Fighters in terms of AB and exceed them in terms of defense, at the expense of chicken feed. In addition to that an environment has been created to where the semi Casters (Paladins/Rangers), swarm into the lower level dungeons by the horde, or camp them, in order to collect the easy money to go back to the crafter casters, and buy a few hundred potions, to go maul the higher level dungeons.
Again, should the reality of what's going on in game be like this representation you pose, we can very easily regulate the supply.
6. Separating the Crafting Skills from the actual Leveling, is a great move. Never said anything against that. What I didn't like, was the Higher Levels that suddenly decided to jump the trade head on, have the insanely unfair advantage of buff after buff, completely skewing the entire system. Now, in the name of a computer game, we have a rather fast Crafting process, which is fine everyone should have time to play. But, in compromise to the real time required by the books, would be to set it up so Buffs Don't Work with the Crafting system. Right now, due to the OOC nature of Recipe exchanges and what not, the Non caster with a good friend on the side that knows the recipes, can quaff a few potions and start churning them out by the truckload as well. The 20 Con, Dwarf Barbarian with a high wisdom, and a pile of other dump stats is right around the corner as an Herb Crafter. Further destroying even the meager hope, of a low magic setting.
This argument, I do agree with at large. I've just been implementing the ignoring of stat buffs into the current module, and do have plans of at some point giving advantages to certain backgrounds, races, classes etc., to make it all more meaningful and even balanced.
Had high hopes for seeing something that was representative of the setting, especially with the reams of material for herbs and plants and even drugs and posiond all over the Ravenloft Material. Don't get me wrong though I actually do appreciate the work that goes into this place. I still stand by the fact though that this is contrary to the nature of the setting, and well like others said, More Forgotten Realms, Less Ravenloft. Don't like it, nor to I liked being FORCED to RP it and the Support of It.
Being an experienced roleplayer as yourself, I'm sure you also know that roleplaying is too very much a matter of compromising and building stories from what you're able to establishing in common. To that extend, yes, you are put under some conformities for the sake of consistency. We've never claimed to go exactly by the book - a lot of the things we have here would ever have existed if it was so - but on the other hand, we've been largely inspired by the materials posed in the official books. The effects aren't completely outside range of what effects the core books have - many of the Ravenloft canon ingredients produce effects that cannot be explained in any other way than containing some form of magic.
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/More:
I cannot help to think the herbalism popularity is still a bit resting on the newness factor of things. To obtain the more powerful potions, you need a broader selection of potions. If you are able to acquire that in abundance, you are most likely at a level of power where the effects of these potions are minor compared to the effects a caster of your level can provide you with - and that's without any costs or real hassle. The true spellcaster will also be able to provide the effects at a much higher caster level.
But again, I'm in no way ruling out that we'll regulate the availability. Right now, I'm just more leaning toward regulating one thing at a time and then evaluate the consequence. The disregarding of ability buffs is next in queue.
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I really do think there is a problem though. In the year that I've played here, I've been mostly a non-magic user. The items available to me that leant magical aid were few and far between. The easiest "buff" was purchasing barkskin potions from the beekeeper. Everyone once in a LONG while, I'd find a speed potion or invisibility potion, or an herb that did something similar. Things like the Dragon's eyes were something I purchased everytime I found one at Murnu's (which wasn't often). Otherwise, it was just the occasional Bless or Aid potion. One of Torgan's most prized possessions was an amulet that simply had multiple uses of Shield. Now, I won't be surprised if Shield (like Ghostly Visage) is available in brewed form.
The last herbalist I confronted had TWENTY-ONE invisibility potions and something like TEN haste potions! Had every single stat buff, in multiple quantities. This increases the amount of magic on the server, when I think we already have too much as it is.
While this fellow has been cranking out potions like crazy, but that's a huge supply of something that used to be a rare commodity.
And I agree with Rex, Herbalism should take a back seat to magic, and I'd think folks would still be potionmakers.
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Again, you can get those scrolls as easily from Denalie or from the mage's tower for about the same price, Whats the difference?
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Again, you can get those scrolls as easily from Denalie or from the mage's tower for about the same price, Whats the difference?
That scrolls aren't usable by everyone and even the lower level ones do require quite good UMD? :P
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Again, you can get those scrolls as easily from Denalie or from the mage's tower for about the same price, Whats the difference?
Not everyone routinely plays bards with high UMD scores. :lol:
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I like the herbs that keep popping up. The only problem I see right now is the abundance of certain herbs. While my character still needs to get re-levelled before he can use his herbs again (Shadowspawn), I like walking around collecting pounds of beggar's cups and woundwarts while sighing, then seeing that one rare mountain morel (what it makes I have no idea) that gets me all excited. I think if the amount of specific herbs was lowered, such as honey lily and ravenclaw, we wouldn't have any problems. I don't think anyone is whining about having more healing potions, because those have always been around. I see easy solutions to the qualms without nerfing the trade in general. The glory of the system is that it was set up in patterns, making it easy to regulate whole chunks of things while leaving the rest alone. That's my take on it, at least.
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A think an adjustment in the DCs of certain potions would help, as well. 5-10 leavels of smithing lets you make junk items nobody wants. 5-10 levels of herbalism you can make all sorts of useful things. Add 10+ to the DC of everything beyond cure moderate potions, and it'll work itself out. If you have to soak 5k+ worth of fangs into it to make anything beyond a simple healing potion, it'll be just like the other crafts, then, and only the people with an IC reason for doing it will stick with it.
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But herbalism has a much smaller range of things to make, and I don't think the skill goes up nearly as fast as smithing. I don't it's fair to compare the two.
Curious, though, what is the highest level you can achieve in herbalism?
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But herbalism has a much smaller range of things to make, and I don't think the skill goes up nearly as fast as smithing. I don't it's fair to compare the two.
Curious, though, what is the highest level you can achieve in herbalism?
I would assume they all go up to 50, and with herbalism you make a profit every time you get a success. With smithing you lose thousands of gold before you can sell anything to make a profit. In that regard it's unbalanced to the other crafts. Now, if a -5 keen could be added to the brewed potions, you wouldn't see Murnu's full of potions all the time now.
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In all honesty, without someone to resell the potions, the herbologist wouldnt make any money. All three used to sell them back to murnu for 1g a piece till i got around
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In all honesty, without someone to resell the potions, the herbologist wouldnt make any money. All three used to sell them back to murnu for 1g a piece till i got around
But that's the way the other crafts work. Everything sells for a fang. Why not herbalism? *shrugs*
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In all honesty, without someone to resell the potions, the herbologist wouldnt make any money. All three used to sell them back to murnu for 1g a piece till i got around
But that's the way the other crafts work. Everything sells for a fang. Why not herbalism? *shrugs*
He resells them at the normal prices. It seems odd he would be buying them for a single fang. I might have to make a few potions with Wilhelm to check that. Buffed, of course.
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I love the idea of high DCs for the harder stuff and a -5 keen OR stop Murnu from buying/selling potions would remove the profit factor. Low levels of smithing/leatherworking/wood working produce crap thats not worth squat... it would be good if herbalism was the same... basically, cure minor and light, Holbrokens Brew (makes light spell), etc then the next big level up would be potions of exp. retreat, bottled Black etc (say DC 25 or 30), with Stat buffers and the 'good stuff' coming in at DC 30 or 35, possibly including magic weapon oil and the great stuff at DC 40-45 (not sure what 'great stuff' would be...)
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Lesser restores sell for a lot, and are really easy to make, and only one component.
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Lesser restores sell for a lot, and are really easy to make, and only one component.
and that doesnt seem unbalanced to you? sure does to me that such a decently strong potion can be made with simple compenents
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Just made a cure light, the lowliest of the potions. Even with Wilhelms horrible appraise he can break even on it.
Bronze chainmail is worth far more before you make it than after. 3 wolf patches at 4-9 fangs (for the rangs I've seen), 5 bronze at 4-7 fangs, and a template for 30ish fangs, to make something no PC would want, and Murnu will only give you 5 or so fangs for. It's a loss of 25 fangs, compared to a profit of 30-60 by not making the armour. The availability of herbs isn't the issue, it's the ease of making highly profitable potions for little or no input money.
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Lesser restores sell for a lot, and are really easy to make, and only one component.
and that doesnt seem unbalanced to you? sure does to me that such a decently strong potion can be made with simple compenents
Yes, I was agreeing.
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Lesser restores sell for a lot, and are really easy to make, and only one component.
and that doesnt seem unbalanced to you? sure does to me that such a decently strong potion can be made with simple compenents
Yes, I was agreeing.
ah ok my bad :D
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Np. Was confirming that they sell for way more than one coin, lol.
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Right this was a suggestion thread, it's gone to hell yet again. ^_^v
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It was actually still about suggestions for balancing it in comparison to the other crafts, even when it got off topic.
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I think it's fair to say that the herbalism potions should have same Keen -5 property as everything else. Honestly, the main reason it wasn't originally that way was because I used the original NWN potions for many recipes and didn't think they would sell for enough to be a problem.
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Sounds perfect to me, makes the job of a merchant easier. The crafter WILL seek out customers rather than just dumped them to murnu
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Sounds perfect to me, makes the job of a merchant easier. The crafter WILL seek out customers rather than just dumped them to murnu
:thumbup:
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Sounds perfect to me, makes the job of a merchant easier. The crafter WILL seek out customers rather than just dumped them to murnu
:thumbup:
Oh and some wanabees will give up do to the *hard work* there's to do for a few coins
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I'll hold a -5 keen lesser restoration chugging fest.
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With my start of summer vacation, I delved into the herbalism with Nell which means she started at a time when buffs were not an inlfuence over the brewing process. Her natural ability scores were made for something like herbalism, so there was no issue with the buffs not factoring in.
So far, the herbalism has added something great to the role playing aspect. There are now characters, young business folk, who are capitalizing on herbalism by gathering the herbs and selling them. So that relationship between crafter and gatherer offers some nice role play. There is also role play that takes place over the cauldron. Nell was taught a great deal over some nice mentorship role play be Deneve, as Deneve showed her how to prep the ingredients and how to control the temperature of the cauldron.
So the herbalism, aside from the fun of learning new recipes, has opened up some new role playing possibilies. :thumbup: Good work.
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I have to add my $0.02 worth to Iconoclastic's thoughts:
I was not a great fan of the new herbalism skill. I was more fascinated with the "one-arm bandit" aspect of the the cauldron than anything else.
However, last night I went looking for herbs and saw new ones that cropped up with the new spring season. It was magic. It was immersive. It was really, really nice.
I also see the cauldron turning into the Ravenloft version of the "office water cooler".
As it looks now, herbalism is a winner. :thumbup:
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Can the prices of bottles be lowered a tad? Maybe to 10-15gp? It doesn't make sense for a glass bottle to be worth twice its weight in gold.
Speaking as a lowbie, 21gp is just waaaaaay too much. Well, unless you were looking to stop lowbies from crafting with herbalism and catering to the established mid-high levels, then it's fine.
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Potions have a great return in money compared to the ungodly amount of copper dagger you have to get through to make something sale-worthy, even if the only potion you can make is expeditious retreat, you can sell one for fifty gold and make a profit. Rarely the nay sayer here but i think the price for bottle is fine, since i proposed the price to go up in the first place.
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Potions have a great return in money compared to the ungodly amount of copper dagger you have to get through to make something sale-worthy, even if the only potion you can make is expeditious retreat, you can sell one for fifty gold and make a profit. Rarely the nay sayer here but i think the price for bottle is fine, since i proposed the price to go up in the first place.
That is true I suppose, but that assumes you manage to sell to someone or aren't making it for your own use.
"One glass bottle? That will be twenty one dollars, sir."
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We're trying to recreate an economy, like Iconoclast pointed out, new roleplay is created. I understand Adriana has no desire to make any profits but she needs money to make her own potions. You need a third option here and very often it's to go farm some rats or pluck at some dungeons, or make some friends willing to invest in helping you out.
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but you are aware of the fact that a potion bottle is now more expensive than a potion of cure light wounds?
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but you are aware of the fact that a potion bottle is now more expensive than a potion of cure light wounds?
You can still buy cure light wounds potions, so there is no need to make them. This will lead to more of the stronger potions being available.
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Consider the high bottle cost to also factor in (in abstract) all the crap like eye of newt and stuff thats not in the reciepe directly... its all the powers and silver stirring rods etc.
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but you are aware of the fact that a potion bottle is now more expensive than a potion of cure light wounds?
Any character no matter what lvl he is or no matter how much money he has can go out and get some blackwort and make a potion worth 500g that is in very high demand. I don't personally see a problem right now with the price of the bottles. Every craft is an investment and potion making is the only one that gives you money back right away, it just need a little effort in getting it
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Hm. i doubt that the increase of bottles was that good a thing. The effect on low levels seems quite significant to me.
It may well be that much money can be made with potions - but if a 500 gp potion can be made by anybody, then the DC needs an uplift - and not the bottle price.
I would have prefered the addition of secondary, costly ingredients that can only be purchased for the more valuable potions.
But if there are still low level herbalists that have no problem with the price increase - well, no problem then.
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If any crafter, low or high level has a problem leveling his craft, there are people out there ready to help, they don't HAVE to do it all alone. They have friends, there are investors, the new system forces us to roleplay and it's not a bad thing mind you.
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I'm not sure one way or the other regarding what the best price for an empty bottle should be, yet.
What I can say is that Nell learning herbalism reminds me of the process of learning most trades or professions. When she returned from Mordent and began to study herbalism, her bank account quickly drained to cover the start up costs. It takes an investment of time and coin before the skills are mastered to a point where those skills will start earning back. The need for coin though to fund herbalism in the start was part of the fun for me.