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Author Topic: Zen Archery  (Read 3643 times)

Bizarro

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Zen Archery
« on: June 26, 2018, 07:26:11 AM »
I took the zen archery feat with the hope it would affect also the ranged touch attacks of the spells, sadly it doesn't :( . I'm playing a cleric and i hoped to be able to spam negative energy rays but i actually found myself missing so many of them that i ended up doing more damage with a normal crossbow. Now, correct me if i'm wrong but for what i see ranged touch attacks aren't that damaging, they are fine and fun (if you ask me) but they are not crazy damage one shots that kills everything if they hit (except for disintegrate, but that one has a saving throw, also it's a only arcane spell, so a character casting it will rarely use zen archery,also so it is closer to a death effect, and i don't think it's a very powerful spell, but that's a different topic). I don't think it would be OP to have zen archery affect spells and ranged touch attacks, even lore wise: if i use my deep perception of the surrounding to aim a bolt or an arrow i'll probably be able to do that even with searing light.
I'd like to add that in the Complete warrior v3.5 zen archery does in fact affect ALL ranged attacks, as it says "You can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier when making a ranged attack roll" any kind of ranged attack roll. Now, don't get me wrong, i don't think we should take what's in the manuals as always balanced or always good but, of curse, i think that in this case the feat is good as it is on the manuals.
It shouldn't hurt the game to have zen archery affect all ranged attacks also because a ray spamming cleric isn't game breaking at all, yes they are rouch attacks, but they are very limited and they drain your healing potential, a self buffing zen archer will still be a stronger build, doing more damage for a longer time and that's a build that is actually possible in the game.
Clearly i'm bringing out this topic because i'm personally interested in it and i'd love to have my wisdom modifier on my ranged spell attacks, that's how i intended the character after all.
What do you think?

StellarNope

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2018, 11:45:07 PM »
Unfortunately it's probably one of those things that the devs only made an allowance in the code just for ranged weapons and likely did not open it for others to apply it more broadly. There's a lot about NWN's core mechanics that are just not changeable by servers. The Enhanced Edition is trying to open up more possibilities but it's an ongoing, slow process.

ASymphony

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2018, 07:45:18 AM »
Also it should be added that there is a distinct chance that this won't be among the things that can be/will be made accessible. This "opening up of things" has been frequently overstated but only very little has actually happened, this is not something hopes should be placed on in any way until it is actually announced.

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2018, 08:07:13 AM »
Quote
Also it should be added that there is a distinct chance that this won't be among the things that can be/will be made accessible. This "opening up of things" has been frequently overstated but only very little has actually happened, this is not something hopes should be placed on in any way until it is actually announced.

This is actually something we have the ability to do now, albeit a little hackily, and EE made it significantly easier, so don't get too pessimistic, either. ;) As to whether we'll do it, I'll leave that question to wiser heads than my own.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 01:42:03 AM »
I think it makes a lot of sense. I also might suggest that there be a feat Wizards/Sorcs could take it allow them to use their Int/Cha modifiers for "focused spellcasting" or in otherwords, use INT/CHA for their touch attacks, to level it out as well. Those spells don't get used nearly enough without someone True Striking beforehand because it's just unreliable as a whole.

McNastea

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 01:52:54 AM »
Zen Archery in 3.5 according to the wiki doesn't work by itself in that manner, instead it takes levels and feats to get to the point that spells might be used with ranged touched attacks.

Quote

Zen Archery [Combat]
You are very calm about shooting people in the face. That's a good place to be.
Benefits: This is a combat feat that scales with your Base Attack Bonus.

+0: You may use your Wisdom Modifier in place of your Dexterity Modifier on ranged attack rolls.
+1: Any opponent you can hear is considered an opponent you can see for purposes of targeting them with ranged attacks.
+6: If you cast a Touch Spell, you can deliver it with a ranged weapon (though you must hit with a normal attack to deliver the spell).
+11: As a Full Round Action, you may make one ranged attack with a +20 Insight bonus to hit.
+16: As a Full Round Action, you may make one ranged attack with a +20 Insight bonus to hit. If this attack hits, your attack is automatically upgraded to a critical threat. If the threat range of your weapon is 19-20, your critical multiplier is increased by one.


I'd also urge developers to consider how buffing ranged touched attacks might factor in to overall balance. Typically a spell requiring a touch attack is already powerful in itself. By buffing the ability of a caster to make said attack you're giving them a huge buff overall. Not to mention True Strike.

At most it should be a prerequisite to a feat that allows said ability, but I'm not sure it should be given at all.

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StellarNope

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2018, 04:16:56 AM »
What Lotus said. Touch attacks, melee or ranged, already bypass armor, deflection, shield, and natural armor types. Only Dex and Dodge AC prevents it, so even a half AB class can usually land touch attacks without a great deal of difficulty unless they are shooting rogues.

bestbardna

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2018, 06:41:33 AM »
Zen Archery in 3.5 according to the wiki doesn't work by itself in that manner, instead it takes levels and feats to get to the point that spells might be used with ranged touched attacks.

Quote

Zen Archery [Combat]
You are very calm about shooting people in the face. That's a good place to be.
Benefits: This is a combat feat that scales with your Base Attack Bonus.

+0: You may use your Wisdom Modifier in place of your Dexterity Modifier on ranged attack rolls.
+1: Any opponent you can hear is considered an opponent you can see for purposes of targeting them with ranged attacks.
+6: If you cast a Touch Spell, you can deliver it with a ranged weapon (though you must hit with a normal attack to deliver the spell).
+11: As a Full Round Action, you may make one ranged attack with a +20 Insight bonus to hit.
+16: As a Full Round Action, you may make one ranged attack with a +20 Insight bonus to hit. If this attack hits, your attack is automatically upgraded to a critical threat. If the threat range of your weapon is 19-20, your critical multiplier is increased by one.


I'd also urge developers to consider how buffing ranged touched attacks might factor in to overall balance. Typically a spell requiring a touch attack is already powerful in itself. By buffing the ability of a caster to make said attack you're giving them a huge buff overall. Not to mention True Strike.

At most it should be a prerequisite to a feat that allows said ability, but I'm not sure it should be given at all.

Uh... that's not the actual feat Lotus. That's a custom feat from the dnd wiki

APorg

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2018, 08:46:55 AM »
I'd also urge developers to consider how buffing ranged touched attacks might factor in to overall balance. Typically a spell requiring a touch attack is already powerful in itself. By buffing the ability of a caster to make said attack you're giving them a huge buff overall. Not to mention True Strike.

Now you urge caution about game balance? I say we implement it and see what happens; isn't that the prevailing attitude on this server? Why should we need to show caution for things that boost certain classes but can throw that caution to the wind with things that boost other classes?
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MAB77

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2018, 09:39:08 AM »
Uh... that's not the actual feat Lotus. That's a custom feat from the dnd wiki

Indeed, the dandwiki site isn't a reliable source. I strongly suggest never referring to it.

The actual feat as per the "Complete Warrior -Sword and Fist" sourcebook states only:

"You can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier when making a ranged attack roll."

So in a P&P game it would apply to touch range attacks.

The problem in NWN is that all touch attacks are handled by a single script which ignores all feats. Now whether or not it can be changed, and more importantly, should be changed, will be something the dev staff to ponder.
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McNastea

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2018, 10:19:33 AM »
I'd also urge developers to consider how buffing ranged touched attacks might factor in to overall balance. Typically a spell requiring a touch attack is already powerful in itself. By buffing the ability of a caster to make said attack you're giving them a huge buff overall. Not to mention True Strike.

Now you urge caution about game balance? I say we implement it and see what happens; isn't that the prevailing attitude on this server? Why should we need to show caution for things that boost certain classes but can throw that caution to the wind with things that boost other classes?

I'm perfectly capable of having a different opinion about two different things. Is this comment even necessary? You seem more interested in coming after me than you do in the subject of this thread.

As for the feat posted, well my mistake :)
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2018, 11:01:13 AM »
I'd also urge developers to consider how buffing ranged touched attacks might factor in to overall balance. Typically a spell requiring a touch attack is already powerful in itself. By buffing the ability of a caster to make said attack you're giving them a huge buff overall. Not to mention True Strike.

Now you urge caution about game balance? I say we implement it and see what happens; isn't that the prevailing attitude on this server? Why should we need to show caution for things that boost certain classes but can throw that caution to the wind with things that boost other classes?

I'm perfectly capable of having a different opinion about two different things. Is this comment even necessary? You seem more interested in coming after me than you do in the subject of this thread.

As for the feat posted, well my mistake :)


I think it’s perfectly fine for Clerics and Druids to be honest, which are the only two classes that even benefit from the feat in this particular instance. They aren’t savvy on ranged touch attacks for the most part.

APorg

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2018, 11:02:43 AM »
Deleting this post and walking away from this thread.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 12:07:48 PM by aprogressivist »
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MAB77

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2018, 11:16:50 AM »
Quote from: aprogressivist
[...] I say we implement it and see what happens; isn't that the prevailing attitude on this server? [...]

Dear god no... If there is something I learned as a dev, it's that nothing is implemented on a whim. Things are discussed through first and we generally have a fair idea of how things will pan out. Sure, there will be unforseen turn of events at times. That is why we also monitor changes after their implementation. But it's never "just" to see how things turn out.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2018, 12:18:14 PM »
Well.

1) I think it's more fruitful to argue each each issue as it comes up and confine ourselves to the specific case as much as possible. Yes, stare decisis should be a concept applied here as well as in law, because players build PCs based on certain expectations and precedents. And we play in game with certain assumptions, so some consistency is necessary. But it seems mostly counter-productive to me to bring in individual player histories and positions to dispute a point because ultimately the person arguing the point is irrelevant logically in almost every case to the truth or falsity of the proposition.

2) I do disagree with the idea that making the server rules comport exactly with any version of PnP is ideal. We ought not assume that any version of the rules is perfectly balanced and can't be improved upon, nor do mechanical limitations here allow the same finesse as PnP. There's also the question of setting, whereas PnP rules try to balance a myriad of settings. The peculiarities of Ravenloft (for one example, so many undead) are always going to make balance here different. As another example, on POTM one way casters are supposed to be balanced is by the social reaction to magic. So when that's not enforced, then the casting classes can appear to be stronger relative to the mundane statistically. But the statistical balance can be addressed through making life hard for casters in other ways, even to the point that it could become unbalanced--particularly at low levels.

3) In all honesty, I think the Devs have become very cavalier in their changes. It seems to me that their changes are driven much more by what they can implement and are personally interested in, rather than always what will enrich the player experience. I appreciate their work, but a lot of changes have been in the teeth of strong player criticism and well-argued resistance. Given that Dev time and inclination are limited resources, perhaps those ideas that have wider appeal and agreement should be the focus, rather than those likely to cause player resentment and division.

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MAB77

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2018, 12:41:55 PM »
We are veering off topic here. There is a lot of your points I could argue based on my experience as both a player and dev, but it would serve no purpose to hold such debate here. Though I will gladly discuss it directly with you on discord.

For now it suffices to say that the Dev team will consider the issue of ranged touch attacks.







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MAB

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2018, 01:07:54 PM »
If I've given the impression that I don't appreciate the tremendous work Devs do, that is not my intent at all because none of this is possible without you.

But to stay on topic, I don't really want more feats of any kind at this point--especially if they require me to re-level again. As a player of clerics, I would certainly benefit from Zen archery and my touch attacks being improved by it.

I think there are better uses for Dev time (which I do value).

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Pav

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2018, 08:51:50 PM »
I'd also urge developers to consider how buffing ranged touched attacks might factor in to overall balance. Typically a spell requiring a touch attack is already powerful in itself. By buffing the ability of a caster to make said attack you're giving them a huge buff overall. Not to mention True Strike.

Now you urge caution about game balance? I say we implement it and see what happens; isn't that the prevailing attitude on this server? Why should we need to show caution for things that boost certain classes but can throw that caution to the wind with things that boost other classes?

I'm perfectly capable of having a different opinion about two different things. Is this comment even necessary? You seem more interested in coming after me than you do in the subject of this thread.

Except aprog is not wrong, and any semblance of game balance on this module has been thrown out the window with no caution, thought, or care.

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2018, 10:45:47 PM »
The TouchAttack functions are still hardcoded in NwN.

Bizarro

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2018, 01:47:39 PM »
We are veering off topic here. There is a lot of your points I could argue based on my experience as both a player and dev, but it would serve no purpose to hold such debate here. Though I will gladly discuss it directly with you on discord.

For now it suffices to say that the Dev team will consider the issue of ranged touch attacks.









I've made a list of the cleric spells that are going to be affected by a possible change on zen archery (i may have missed some, but i think not)
- negative energy ray: it's good and satisfying when it hits, but at max power it usually hits around 15/17 dmg, 5d6 at lvl 9 aren't the scariest attack, the strong thing about the negative energy ray is that it can be spammed.
- slashing darkness: looks great, doesn't hit super hard, from 5d8 and 5d6 there's not a great jump, it's just slightly stronger than a negative energy ray, slightly
-Searing light: the same as slashign darkness, there's the 10d6 against undeads but they have the saving throw to half the dmg... so it's basically a single target fireball, that may deal no dmg in case it misses (it should be ok for it to hit more often)
-Evil Domain Enervation: now, this may be the problem it's by far the strongest attack on the list, it's going to be a lvl 5 spell (bcs that's when domain gives it), this MAY alter the game balance, yet i don't think many people would spam enervation: it's very dangerous only if you use it mmore than once to focus down one target wich means you'll usually be using a lot of power to take down just one enemy (that's kinda the point for a ray build), it's kinda hard to take down something with negative levels but it's direct dmg on saving throws so you can cast one or two enervations on the target and then get close and try to finish him with slay living, it's still going to be 3 lvl 5 slots wich means you are renouncing to quite powerful buffs
- Lucent Lance, this may be doing some good dmg... but only in daylight, i still don't think it would be overpowered
-Energy Drain: same as enervation, with the addition that they work very well toghether

i think the biggest problem could be the negative levels, but as i said you would be using a lot of resources to take one single target down, it can be worth or not, it depends on the situation, it's not a good strategy for every scenario. It shouldn't be game changing nor game breaking it would just open the door to different strategies and different clerics.

For the druids i think there's only:
- Quillfire: it's nice, but totally not gamebraking, little damage and there's a saving throw on the poison
- Flame Lash: it's good, but it's just a bit stronger than the negative energy ray, it can become spammable but it won't do TONS of dmg
- Fire Seeds: Now, this one will do a lot of fire dmg (i am surprised they put THIS spell in the game), but you can give the acorn bombs to other characters with high BAB, so i don't think that zen archery would make this spell cause more problems than those it already can.

these are my thoughts, i hope they can help :)

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2018, 05:04:33 PM »
Yes... for druids spell list it doesnt change a thing anyway.

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2018, 10:38:18 PM »
Once again, this is hardcoded.

Bizarro

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2018, 04:38:01 PM »
So, i've been playing my cleric for some time and i can tell that the wisdom bonus on zen archery isn't needed. A ray build isn't the best but it's fairly viable in my opinion, and fun, at least for me. The wisdom bonus would have helped in the early lvls, but once your BA grows you'll be hitting most of them anyway.

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2018, 07:55:12 PM »
A little off-topic but in response to the necro-bump:

Does divine favor / bless / aid / prayer / divine power etc affect the ranged touch attack bonus?

Bizarro

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Re: Zen Archery
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2018, 06:44:31 AM »
A little off-topic but in response to the necro-bump:

Does divine favor / bless / aid / prayer / divine power etc affect the ranged touch attack bonus?

Yes, even heroism from arcane casters should work. Both on ranged and melee touch attacks