Changes to RP XP

[Iridni Ren]

In the Chat MAB mentioned that RP XP had been boosted in general but that it also no longer issues a message when a PC doesn't receive any RP XP. Can the changes be elaborated on?

I RP'd for more than an hour in the Lodge and received no message of XP award at all, and I'm not sure if this is a bug or not.

I doubt very much any low levels had been in the Lodge, as we don't have very many in the faction, certainly not active. The levels of the PCs engaged in the conversation were 15, 15, and 8. The 8th level was receiving XP, but neither of the 15ths did.

Bug or intended?

Thanks.

[Arawn]

It’s average of level over time, not those in the room. If you weren’t receiving the message, you weren’t getting XP. Sounds like it’s working.

[Iridni Ren]

It’s average of level over time, not those in the room. If you weren’t receiving the message, you weren’t getting XP. Sounds like it’s working.

The room being the Lodge? I've always received XP in the Lodge before, so my question is whether the zone considered in the average has changed.

[Iridni Ren]

Tonight I RP'd again for more than an hour in the Lodge on a 15th level with a 20th level and another PC in that same range. No RP XP for any of us.

To repeat, I have never previously had even reduced RP messages in the Lodge and have always received full RP XP there.

It's highly unlikely the Lodge (a locked faction area that members would have to bring low levels into) has had significant low level traffic to bring the average down.

I will keep tracking and reporting this--especially if anyone does start getting RP XP--but it seems something has certainly changed.

[EO]

That's intentional. We increased the overall amount of RP XP people can get but more clearly defined what low and high level areas are (much like what defines when your starting location is the Mist Camp vs Vistani Camp in Vallaki). Whether an area is considered high or low level for RP XP purposes is based on where the area is rather than the average level of characters in the area.

[Iridni Ren]

That's intentional. We increased the overall amount of RP XP people can get but more clearly defined what low and high level areas are (much like what defines when your starting location is the Mist Camp vs Vistani Camp in Vallaki). Whether an area is considered high or low level for RP XP purposes is based on where the area is rather than the average level of characters in the area.

Thanks for the clarification, although changes like this IMO should be announced, rather than players' being left to operate in ignorance, believing the old system is still in place. Moreover, we should also be informed of which areas are *officially* (i.e., systematically) designated high and low.

Why? Because the point of the new design is to influence player behavior OOCly, and we can't be influenced if we don't know. It is similar to designing a set of roads and speed limits without giving us any signs to tell us which roads should be used for slow driving and which should be used for fast. We're left to find out only when we receive tickets for speeding.

Arawn recently expressed some irk in Chat over the idea that Devs would ever purposely degrade the player experience. In that spirit, I think players should know which areas high levels will be penalized for RPing in so that we can avoid them. I mean, that's what you want us to do, right?

[SanneJ]

The old system with a "negative" message was doing a fine job at that, if you ask me.

[BraveSirRobin]

That's intentional. We increased the overall amount of RP XP people can get but more clearly defined what low and high level areas are (much like what defines when your starting location is the Mist Camp vs Vistani Camp in Vallaki). Whether an area is considered high or low level for RP XP purposes is based on where the area is rather than the average level of characters in the area.

Thanks for the clarification, although changes like this IMO should be announced, rather than players' being left to operate in ignorance, believing the old system is still in place. Moreover, we should also be informed of which areas are *officially* (i.e., systematically) designated high and low.

Why? Because the point of the new design is to influence player behavior OOCly, and we can't be influenced if we don't know. It is similar to designing a set of roads and speed limits without giving us any signs to tell us which roads should be used for slow driving and which should be used for fast. We're left to find out only when we receive tickets for speeding.

Arawn recently expressed some irk in Chat over the idea that Devs would ever purposely degrade the player experience. In that spirit, I think players should know which areas high levels will be penalized for RPing in so that we can avoid them. I mean, that's what you want us to do, right?

Seems legit. I’d like at least a brief overview style list. The OOC intended level ranges for RP. There was a solid period where Port didn’t have hardly any traffic but a handful of low level players and one or two mid-levels for about a month or so and I began to get messages in the Gendarmerie and Savant that I wasn’t getting any XP. I am very glad that system is now gone, because it was a bit flawed in that aspect. Ever since EE I’ve had a pretty good time with RP XP in Port.


Anyhow. Seems only fair that the Devs cut the middle man on the subject and give us a rundown. It’s a clearly OOC mechanic that’s designed with the OOC intentions of encouraging players to move on past places like Vallaki, so that the plebian low levels are not lorded over by level 10+ PCs. Otherwise what you’re really asking us to do is spend an excessive amount of time recording our results and collaborating it among circles of our friends, which might work for some of the veteran players with networks, but it is very counter intuitive for anyone new to our little demiplane of dread.

[Knight of Rhodes]

I am a bit irked by this, and thought the ability to retain the RP XP at decent volume in faction areas was a well enough system. My primary character is heavily centered in Vallaki, and it, in essence, forces me to dungeon to advance, instead of slowly advancing via story xp.

[McNastea]

I agree that changes like this should be announced, not doing so leads to a lot of unnecessary confusion and posts and back and forth between players that could easily be cleared up simply by telling people you changed something. Not just in this case but in all.

I also sympathize with players not gaining their rp xp in faction areas. While I do see why the change was made in response to increasing rp xp as a whole, perhaps keeping faction areas rp xp lvl up higher would be a good idea?

[BahamutZ3RO]

Can we stop trying to chase high levels out of Barovia, maybe? I feel like splitting the server is a bad idea now that we've transitioned to EE. New players show up and find only two or three people in Vallaki, while the rest are all out in the other corners of the server doing their own thing, and I don't know that that'll make them want to stay around too much, especially given how hard it is to dungeon or explore for a lone low level with no knowledge of the server.

We really need to take a look at the server and how hard it is to get into for new people, but that's probably a topic for elsewhere.

[Darktide18]

Can we stop trying to chase high levels out of Barovia, maybe? I feel like splitting the server is a bad idea now that we've transitioned to EE. New players show up and find only two or three people in Vallaki, while the rest are all out in the other corners of the server doing their own thing, and I don't know that that'll make them want to stay around too much, especially given how hard it is to dungeon or explore for a lone low level with no knowledge of the server.

We really need to take a look at the server and how hard it is to get into for new people, but that's probably a topic for elsewhere.

Or a high level character can roll an alt and RP with the new people discovering things with them as they experience the server for the first time.  Having high levels in the player hub historically has been a bad idea and I think that's why they're setting things up the way they are. 

Why is it a bad idea?  This is my opinion of course so keep that in mind.  I don't know about now but years ago high levels would clear out dungeons for loot, bully low level characters and just stand around with their arms crossed in the outskirts showing how cool and powerful they are.  Now chalk that up to bad players and all that but its also hard for a DM to do any sort of horror or event when you have high level characters mingling with the low level ones.

*DM Spawns Werewolves*  "Gods do you hear that?!  Morkai run inside before you're torn apart!"  *before they can react a high level character that was standing with said arms crossed steps up and murders them all*

Exaggerated scenario or not I think that is the basics of it as I'm sure many of the vets that still play here know.

[Knight of Rhodes]

While this can happen, most higher levels, including myself, are aware of this. We tip the mechanical field, and dont involve ourselves in everything, but some characters simply do not mesh in other domains or environments. Audric would not do very well in the Port, or any of the other lower traffic domains. That is the primary concern, for me.

Now remanding ourselves where we are more expected to be, being the odd high level remaining in area due to faction, to our faction homes for RP XP was how the earlier system appeared to function and I do beleive it is not unreasonable to inquire about seeing that caveat restored.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Regarding the low/high level segregation, I don't want to reopen that already extensively debated topic here, but search the forum and you should get very elaborate explanations (and a long read!)

As for not announcing the changes to RP XP, I understand the frustration, but it simply got lost in the massive amount of changes involved in the EE transition.

[Nemesis 24]

With regards to the higher levels making alts, there is also the issue of 'weight of experience.'  Its something that people listen to, and its something brand new characters rarely have.

Playing a higher level in Vallaki is akin to taking on a mentor role.  For example I play one there that teaches two different PRCs to players who wish to learn it.  He also teaches about various creatures and beasts at large in the area.  He also strongly reinforces the setting as best he can by firmly reminding people that they cannot win every fight, that many die and are lost, and there are never any happy endings in Barovia.  He's a walking monument to pessimism to counter all the innocent cheerfulness.

Now, I could make an alt for this sort of thing, but frankly that would be cheesing as hell.  The character in question is able to do those things because they spent years learning it all, researching it all.  By making a new alt, I would need a fresh outlook, and lack all that IC knowledge.  If I tried passing on prc training or monster lectures on a level 2 or even a level 5 or 6, I'd rightly be pulled up pretty quick.

I'm fine with the changes, even though it was my only xp gain these days.  Limits the growth but eh, what can you do.

[Iridni Ren]

I am a bit irked by this, and thought the ability to retain the RP XP at decent volume in faction areas was a well enough system. My primary character is heavily centered in Vallaki, and it, in essence, forces me to dungeon to advance, instead of slowly advancing via story xp.

Iridni will wind up spending a lot of time running to the MC, going on a monster bash to as hard a dungeon as she possibly can stand, and then running back to Vallaki to tend to Kinship responsibilities. In other words, a lot of OOC behavior forced on me if I want to keep leveling.

So yes, this change "degrades my individual player experience." To be sure, it may improve the experience of other players, and Devs must look at what is a good for the community as a whole, rather than a few individuals. But I will point out that the old system was already unpopular among players who favored getting rid of it by a wide margin...

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48357

... and this change makes the effect even more OOC. It is more OOC because many players will RP in artificial areas to get XP, as this system says it is the geographical spot you are in that is most important in whether your RP is considered worthwhile or not. When I RP in the Lodge for hours, even with other high-level PCs, that RP is now considered worthless. Were I to have the same conversation with the same other PCs in a room in some other building, it would be valuable and rewarded. Does this distinction really have merit?

Anyhow. Seems only fair that the Devs cut the middle man on the subject and give us a rundown. It’s a clearly OOC mechanic that’s designed with the OOC intentions of encouraging players to move on past places like Vallaki, so that the plebian low levels are not lorded over by level 10+ PCs. Otherwise what you’re really asking us to do is spend an excessive amount of time recording our results and collaborating it among circles of our friends, which might work for some of the veteran players with networks, but it is very counter intuitive for anyone new to our little demiplane of dread.

This is self-evident to me. Players are going to discover where the highways are through sheer doggedness, whether or not we're told openly. And it doesn't make any sense in any case to hide them from us when we're being penalized for not using them in an attempt to force us to use them.

[Arawn]

So yes, this change "degrades my individual player experience."

What I said was that the dev team would never intentionally choose a policy based in any way on wanting to irritate players. I never said that we could or indeed would want to try and please everyone all the time—that’s never going to happen, and you’ve now twisted my original statement beyond all reason. You’re welcome to your opinion, but don’t misquote me to support it.

[Iridni Ren]

What I said was that the dev team would never intentionally choose a policy based in any way on wanting to irritate players. I never said that we could or indeed would want to try and please everyone all the time—that’s never going to happen, and you’ve now twisted my original statement beyond all reason.

Hardly: I specifically said "To be sure, it may improve the experience of other players, and Devs must look at what is a good for the community as a whole."

I do wonder, however, why you didn't explain to me that the RP system had changed when I first inquired of it. Although Soren says that it was by oversight we were not informed of the change, I find it hard to believe that you as a Dev didn't know of it--and instead implied that I was wrong in my observation:

It’s average of level over time, not those in the room. If you weren’t receiving the message, you weren’t getting XP. Sounds like it’s working.

Versus:

Whether an area is considered high or low level for RP XP purposes is based on where the area is rather than the average level of characters in the area.

You told me the very opposite of the truth. In any case, this change will actually be counter-productive in my own practice. For if there is no advantage to RPing in the Lodge, then I might as well RP in the Outskirts.

[Arawn]

Alas, it does occasionally happen that our own internal communication is not perfect. We are, after all, a group of hobbyists.

[RickDeckard]

I have hit Level 12 on my Garda (through RP XP of course) and now getting the dreaded "Minor progression by roleplay" ticks which is a reduction of RP XP, now as I've stated elsewhere while I am not XP focused on my Guard, I do not enjoy being punished for RPing in an area I am required to be in 99% of the time. I know what I signed up for a year ago in the first place, but with this new system I am basically have the options of dungeon (which I little desire to do on my Guard) or accept the fact I won't get anything out of my time from this point on.

I offer two suggestions:

1. Vallaki Guard don't get this RP XP Hard Cap (perhaps toggled by the armour that recongises us being in the faction? Not sure if possible hence option 2).

2. No RP XP Cap in the Government District (Citadel , where only the guard is) & the Guardhouse (Upstairs/Downstairs) in the Slums District (Since area dependent is now a thing, then surely this is a thing that can be reversed).

Before you state the other factions are affected in Vallaki (Vardo, Kinship , Morninglord), these are factions that have mobility (RVT is in Port as well, Morninglord have VoB and Kinship are an adventuring faction), these are factions that CAN go out and dungeon without any odd looks, the guard do not have that privilege of hanging around in the Mist Camp or elsewhere.

Why punish us instead of rewarding us when we, the faction enforce the setting and set the tone for new players to expect in their time on the server?

[Iridni Ren]

It's a shame you waited until this began to affect you personally before you joined the argument against it. I knew it would be a terrible system back when aprog first proposed it for the very thing we see in your post: players turned against one another about which places should receive bonuses based on their own self-interest. The old system at least rewarded players for interacting with those of like level, whereas this system views "good" RP as a function of geography. And then when players say the geography they RP in is worthwhile, we face the accusation of wanting systems customized to favor our own RP style.

In point of fact, I think the argument for Vallaki garda is weaker than for the other factions you mention. Why? Because for the same reasons you want it changed. A garda character is consigned to what is now an area designated purely for low levels. Your PC has no reason ever to be higher level.  You don't have to fight higher level monsters, and the zone you'll spend 99 percent of your time in will be dealing primarily with low level PCs. If the point of this is to force segregation on the players, then it's no fairer for garda to be capable of stomping AMPCs or hanging around in the Western Outskirts with the certainty that they are the toughest kids on the block than it is for anyone else.

Why punish us instead of rewarding us when we, the faction enforce the setting and set the tone for new players to expect in their time on the server?

Being a good RPer isn't based on faction but on the PC involved. To "set the tone for new players [PCs]" doesn't require that you be more than 10 levels higher than they are. Moreover, I've been told several times now not to look at this as a "punishment": you just aren't receiving a "bonus" for RPing anymore. View roleplaying a garda as its own reward.

I know what I signed up for a year ago in the first place

Yep.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

The suggestions comes back every so often, I myself made that suggestion back when I was playing my guard Nicolai. That suggestion has always been turned down everytime someone has brought it and here is why.

The reason for that is that first of all, we don't want to primary aspect of this game to be earning XP, but people roleplayer together. The Vallaki Garda as a faction, is the best example of that, it's a faction that is entirely focused on RP and where being low or high level doesn't make much difference in the end. It's something every guard player had to deal with through out the years and something Guard players will most likely have to deal with in the future as well.

As well, we wouldn't want have to have high level guards around either as Vallaki is a low level area.

And if I may share a bit of my personal opinion as well, the Vallaki Garda have no real need of leveling in my opinion, I've been in the Vallaki Garda faction for two years in the past and whatever happen, the Vallaki Garda wants to avoid any fight as much as they possibly can, my character's level never had much influence on my experience as a Vallaki Garda.

[BraveSirRobin]

I have hit Level 12 on my Garda (through RP XP of course) and now getting the dreaded "Minor progression by roleplay" ticks which is a reduction of RP XP, now as I've stated elsewhere while I am not XP focused on my Guard, I do not enjoy being punished for RPing in an area I am required to be in 99% of the time. I know what I signed up for a year ago in the first place, but with this new system I am basically have the options of dungeon (which I little desire to do on my Guard) or accept the fact I won't get anything out of my time from this point on.

I offer two suggestions:

1. Vallaki Guard don't get this RP XP Hard Cap (perhaps toggled by the armour that recongises us being in the faction? Not sure if possible hence option 2).

2. No RP XP Cap in the Government District (Citadel , where only the guard is) & the Guardhouse (Upstairs/Downstairs) in the Slums District (Since area dependent is now a thing, then surely this is a thing that can be reversed).

Before you state the other factions are affected in Vallaki (Vardo, Kinship , Morninglord), these are factions that have mobility (RVT is in Port as well, Morninglord have VoB and Kinship are an adventuring faction), these are factions that CAN go out and dungeon without any odd looks, the guard do not have that privilege of hanging around in the Mist Camp or elsewhere.

Why punish us instead of rewarding us when we, the faction enforce the setting and set the tone for new players to expect in their time on the server?

The Vallaki Garda, AFAIK are not encouraged to level. After a certain point, you will remain at a hard cap, as is expected of the setting and the level ranges within it. Whenever someone of particular power or importance comes across your desk to have handled, you issue warrants to more capable adventurers, to generate RP. Even in Dementlieu, where high-levels go to die, your average Gendarme is walking around in clothing, with a rapier and a pistol, and on average are around level 10 except for a few long-term members of the group who are 15-20. Admittedly, Dementlieu allows RP XP progression up to level 20, but Dementlieu is a totally different ballpark from Vallaki, where the RP XP system is designed to discourage individuals from remaining after level 14, and move on to greener pastures to like Dementlieu. For reference, level 14 is when you cease to receive XP entirely.

[Torgrimmerr]

From a new player view, plus a half-orc view who cant go in any city bc he is attacked on site. Can Half-orcs and sub-races which cant go into the cities to RP with main Pop. get a xp boost in RP for RP outside of the cities with players who are willing to RP with us, to help with our progression.

[Blight]

Can I have a pony, since everybody seems to be focused on what can benefit ourselves individually and not the community and justifying it with "logic?"

I mean, it would greatly improve my roleplay experience.