Shrouded Dance at Performance 5 is overpowered

[APorg]

So I'll start with the pre-amble that of course I'm grateful for the content produced by the Devs and the effort put it, but I'm also frustrated that we're not being listened to.

I'm sorry if that sounds combative, but the point has been made from day one that the feat was announced and been ignored; and now I'm hearing talk from some players who are basically saying, "Well, the only way this will be fixed is if we abuse the hell out of it, so that's what we're going to do". If players have to resort to this sort of attitude, it means someone isn't listening.

The book feat on which this is based is 12 Hide and 5 Performance for 20% concealment (if you pass a free Hide roll). This is nice, but not really that strong: it's basically just going to give you a few more Hitpoints, and is essentially negated by Blindfight (rerolling 20% concealment equates  to a measly 4% concealment).

The PotM version is one free HIPS per day. At high levels, the DC 30 roll will be automatically succeeded. One free HIPS per day is basically an auto-ambush or auto-disengage if the other side don't bring an equal-level detector.  This requires zero thought or strategy. This doesn't make high-level detectors merely highly useful. They make them utterly mandatory for dealing with certain classes in almost all situations. This is a virtual auto-win that is far too easy to acquire.

Your high level Rogue is dancing around the Outskirts being an irresponsible idiot when the Garda come along and catch him out in the open? Hey, they're low levels without Spot gear, who cares! Press one button and you've escaped! Don't even need to pop potions or use tactics like corner-stealthing anymore!

Your high level stealth Monk is finally caught in the open by the bounty hunters who've been chasing him for hours? Oh, you don't need to outrun all of them, just their detector. One button click and you're safe.

It's especially bad because the three classes who benefit the most from this (Rogues, Bards, and Monks on PotM have both Hide and Perform) are actually really strong in PvP. It's true that Rogues and Monks lag a bit behind in PvE at the earlier levels, but they are strong in PvP and always have been. They don't need a PvP boost, but Shrouded Dance is a massive PvP boost.

This balance point is questionable all around and you will see people abusing this feat. Some of them are going to abuse the feat precisely to prove the point.

(And before the usual "Monks are weak" crowd chime in that I'm not allowed to have an opinion on monks because I've never played a high level one -- today, my level 20 paladin lost in a zero-buff start tournament duel to a level 19 monk, in a context that denied the monk the advantage of his speed. I think I'm allowed to have an opinion now.  The Monk can match or beat my Paladin in a zero-buff start duel, can out-run him, out-stealth him, and do pretty well even when both sides are fully buffed. It's a fact: high level monks are one of the strongest PVP classes, and will remain so as long as Hector's Essences and Hearts of the Beast drop in the loot tables.)

[MAB77]

Is it truly disappointing to see that players believe they are not headed, if we give that impression then I apologize because I assure you nothing could be further away from truth. Especially in this very case were every arguments for or against Shrouded Dance have been careful weighted in and debated at length before we decided to include it.

Now... and that is important, do note that I am not telling you here that Shrouded Dance does not need to be revised. Like any newly added features it is good to assess the actual result of using that feat vs what was intended, and make adjustments as needed. But we have to look at the global picture here. You make a strong case of the feat's strength in PvP situations, but those situations are the exception not the norm.

Are they so prevalent that it is disruptive to the server? If yes, what would you recommend to balance the feat. Could it be simply a question of adding a longer timer in between uses?

Also, and I have yet to see reports about that, how does the feat perfom in the much more common PvE situations?

[APorg]

To cover your points in reverse order:

In PvE, Shrouded Dance is going to be very useful, but disengagement from PvE was never really that hard. Most PCs can run away from NPC enemies by chugging an Invisibility potion. Shrouded Dance isn't that overpowered in PvE because NPCs largely exist to be beaten and the vast majority of them are lousy detectors anyway.

Will it be disruptive in PvP? In the sense of being a disruptive innovation, it is already seriously redefining how people look at stealth strategies and balance. Before, stealthers had to take precautions and use strategy to disengage; or at least use potions. There was an element of a counter game. The Rogue uses Darkness to try and engage stealth? Well, that can be countered by Ultravision or True Seeing. Invisibility? Ditto, can be countered by potions. Corner-stealthing?That requires practice and an element of player skill. The point is, if one side didn't play well, they usually lost.

Shrouded Dance gives the Rogue the option to click a button to "win" if the other side doesn't have a detector, and it does so for an effective cost of 5 Performance.

The true low cost is part of the issue: people taking Shrouded Dance can ignore the Hide Pre-Requisite, because the PotM version is an upgrade of Stealth, not a separate effect. People who take Shrouded Dance don't think "I want to get Shrouded Dance but it will cost me 12 Hide and 5 Performance"; no, they think "I have 12 Hide already because I'm a Stealther; now if I spent just 5 more into Perform, I have one HIPS per day".

The other issue is that it the DC 30 check doesn't scale well with level at all. At level 9, this check is tough to pull off and makes the feat something of a Hail Mary. At level 20, with 23 Skill ranks and a DEX score of at least 18, most stealthers will already be just a meager +1 or +2 away from this being an automatic success (and therefore an automatic win against non-detectors).

So I would make two suggestion to balance this feat:

 - The first is to raise the pre-requisites. Maybe bump the Performance requirement to 12 or 10 points. That would least give this powerful feat a serious investment cost.

 - Make the check for it to activate based on a skill or ability other than Hide. Stealthers are going to max out Hide anyway, so a Hide requisite is effectively an open gate, and a Hide Skill check becomes an automatic success. Some stealthers can hit Hide skill checks of 90 or 100 at high level on this server; a DC 30 Hide check is merely a penalty on lower level characters.

I would therefore suggest making it a pure DEX check with a reasonable DC. It is much harder to max out your DEX score than it is to max out Hide, so at least with a reasonable DEX DC check, there would always be a risk of failure. Most DEX PCs will probably be sitting around on a +5 or +6 unbuffed, going up to maybe +10 or more when fully buffed.

IMO the DC should also be proportional to how much Performance the Feat costs -- if you're going to keep the low, low cost of Performance 5, the DC ought to be around ~18 . If you're going to boost the Performance prerequisite up to something like Performance 10 or 12, a DC check of ~16 is fairer.

That would at least mean that this feat always has has a reasonable chance of failure and success.

[ladylena]

I don't have the feat but... Is it set to work once per rest or one time in 24 game hours? Seems to me the latter would be a better options as it makes it something more like a 'holy cow i have to get outta here now' thing.

[APorg]

I don't have the feat but... Is it set to work once per rest or one time in 24 game hours? Seems to me the latter would be a better options as it makes it something more like a 'holy cow i have to get outta here now' thing.

Currently, once per day means once per rest, yeah.

[Iridni Ren]

- The first is to raise the pre-requisites. Maybe bump the Performance requirement to 12 or 10 points. That would least give this powerful feat a serious investment cost.

 - Make the check for it to activate based on a skill or ability other than Hide. Stealthers are going to max out Hide anyway, so a Hide requisite is effectively an open gate, and a Hide Skill check becomes an automatic success. Some stealthers can hit Hide skill checks of 90 or 100 at high level on this server; a DC 30 Hide check is merely a penalty on lower level characters.

Perhaps the simplest way to address all your suggestions and points would be to make the check be based on Perform instead of Hide.

[Always_a_hero]

//lot of writing

As far as my experience goes with stealthy characters, I can only say I've had a rogue lvl 10. He didn't have UMD and with his stealth items would go to about 23 of Hide. Most bards I've seen don't build Hide/MS because they only need an invisibility spell to get away and I don't think I've ever seen a stealth monk as of yet in two years (at least one going about said 9th lvl). So I believe it is easy to understand that, knowing Rogue and Bards which have easy access it items/scroll to boost their Hide skill, DC 30 becomes irrelevant by the time people even get the feat.

If we put that aside, however, the main issue would be to understand what does HiPS grants to stealthy characters with the perform prerequisite (let's just assume one could simply dip in rogue or bard). PvE isn't what concern most players because monsters give XP and can't complain about being killed for our entertainment. PvP is what concerns players because it's in direct relation with them, so we'll focus on that, and for simplicity only non-prestige classes (though we could keep Assassin in the back of our minds).

Who are going to use this feat? Characters with Hide, aka Rangers, Bards, Rogues and Monks.
Which classes are proficient with Spot ? Rangers, Rogues, Monks and Druids. (3/4 classes which can be using the feat)
Listen? Now that's another story: Rangers, Bards, Barbarians, Druids, Rogues, Monks.

What I'm trying to show is that the only classes about to "counter" Shrouded Dance are nearly all the same classes which are going to use the feat in the first place.

What advantage does Shrouded Dance bring over a class without perception? (for those wondering, the max Spot/Listen one can get with spells is +25/+25 based on a quick Wiki search) Well, they can run away without notice or attack again with another surprise round against someone Flat-Footed with Sneak/Death Attack or a flurry of d20 punches with an Improved Knockdown. One could even sneak away, ward and come back, though that would be with Ranger/Bard spells along with UMD for rogues and potions only for Monks.... Which can be deadly, don't get me wrong, but just as much as can be just a "bad turn" for the opponent, then shrugged off as most other classes can either be "tanky" or "crazed up casters"... And players in Stealth Mode are also caught up in 9th circle AOE spells.

(Side Note: HiPS I believe can be countered using the spell Light or Faerie Fire, could be wrong on that too.)

In other words, I see Shrouded Dance as a way for Stealthy characters to last longer in a fight or to simply survive rather than a broken ability which kills everyone in PvP, -especially- at an high level.

[APorg]

Perhaps the simplest way to address all your suggestions and points would be to make the check be based on Perform instead of Hide.

Also an option, but that solution still has its idiosyncrasies. It still means the level 9 Rogue who just got the feat will probably have a tiny chance of success while the level 20 Bard will have an automatic success. Meh.

I suggested DEX because I felt it was flatter and fairer all around.

[Iridni Ren]

The DC can also be adjusted if tied to Perform. But I think Perform is a class skill for Rogues, too, isn't it?

It just means the Perform gate is higher, which you were advocating.

IMO the DC should also be proportional to how much Performance the Feat costs.

I mean, wouldn't my suggestion accomplish what you say there?

Also, since it's called a "Dance," it does seem tied to one's ability to Perform.

Finally, it makes things a bit harder for classes like Monk (another of your concerns), which seldom invest much in Perform.

[APorg]

Most bards I've seen don't build Hide/MS because they only need an invisibility spell to get away and I don't think I've ever seen a stealth monk as of yet in two years (at least one going about said 9th lvl).

Bards just got their Skill points to boosted to 6/level, so Stealth became a lot more viable for them. And Monk stealthers definitely exist, they make pretty great assassins even without the PRC.

(Side Note: HiPS I believe can be countered using the spell Light or Faerie Fire, could be wrong on that too.)

In other words, I see Shrouded Dance as a way for Stealthy characters to last longer in a fight or to simply survive rather than a broken ability which kills everyone in PvP, -especially- at an high level.

Stealth is not comparable to Invisibility or other escape spells. Spells have easy counters whereas Stealth is all-or-nothing. If my wizard casts Invisibility, you can counter that with a potion that anybody can use and almost anybody can craft. Ethereal Jaunt is a bit tougher to counter, but Greater Sanctuary was nerfed to Ethereal Jaunt precisely because of how powerful Greater Sanctuary was.

HIPS is powerful. It's so powerful that the Shadowdancer PRC is strictly controlled. Vampire Mist Form, which is similar to these, is also strictly controlled -- Vampire AMPCs who abuse it get punished.

Even a single HIPS use per day is very strong. Again, the issue is that it is cheap and it removes strategy from the question. You barely need to think about what you're doing, you just click a button. And either the other side brought a detector -- in which case, maybe you'll be spotted or maybe not, but even then, just by the detector -- or maybe they didn't -- in which case, you win the encounter and can decide what happens.

I'm not saying Shrouded Dance shouldn't exist. I'm saying that this feat redefines Stealth game balance on this server and yet is utterly cheap and an automatic success for high levels. That's bad.

[APorg]

I mean, wouldn't my suggestion accomplish what you say there?

Also, since it's called a "Dance," it does seem tied to one's ability to Perform.

Finally, it makes things a bit harder for classes like Monk (another of your concerns), which seldom invest much in Perform.

You're right to say that making it a Performance check is thematically appropriate and also encourages a heavier investment. Though I don't like the fact that as long as it is a Skill check, it will become an automatic success at high levels for anyone willing to invest in that.

A move towards either option it would be an improvement on the status quo.

[Always_a_hero]

The reason why HiPS is powerful for MPCs and Shadowdancer is because they have it at any time. Having it once per day for one round (6 seconds) gives you only the occasion to hide -once- which a margin for actually failing to:

1. Get out of combat. (avoiding Attack of Opportunities and/or Knockdowns, which is likely why a 50% concealment was added)
2. Enter sneak mode. (if not under the spell of light)
3. Not get spotted.

There is still a minimum of Player skill involved in using the feat correctly. And again, it a "feat" among a large number of other i.e. two-weapon feats, parry feats, even dodge feats, etc. Changing it to Perform wouldn't help because perform items/boosts are just as popular as stealth items/spells and would only force rogues and monks to accept perform as a skill to invest at every levels. Raising the prerequisites so characters can only takes it at lvl 11 or 12 will only make players more frustrates because they will then have the choice between Shrouded Dance, Improved Knockdown or Improved Critical, and the problem will remain the same because high lvl characters won't be affected by such a change in prerequisites anyhow.

[APorg]

2. Enter sneak mode. (if not under the spell of light)

Light doesn't stop you using HIPS, it just provides a penalty.

3. Not get spotted.

The point is that this makes a detector not merely desirable, but mandatory. Before, at least, it was possible for a stealther to be caught unstealthed in the open. With Shrouded Dance as written, it won't matter; one button press is all it takes to reduce that possibility.

There is still a minimum of Player skill involved in using the feat correctly.

No, there isn't. You press a button, and either you have the Hide skill level to pull it off or you don't. Again, I've seen people at high levels rock Hide checks in the 90's or 100's. Where is the skill and strategy in pressing one button to negate any tactical disadvantage?

Again: we removed Greater Sanctuary because it was a button click to escape. Shrouded Dance isn't as bad as Greater Sanctuary was, but it's harder to counter than Ethereal Jaunt is -- at least PCs can see a character that is Ethereal Jaunt with a See Invisi or True Seeing potion, and Wizards/Sorcerors with Missile Swarms are a hard counter to Ethereal Jaunt.

At Performance 5, every Rogue, Monk and Bard can afford Shrouded Dance so it will be even more common than Greater Sanctuary was. And Stealth has no hard counters -- just the soft counter of detection, which requires a dedicated build to beat Hide scores that achieve checks of 90 or 100.

Every build choice should be balanced against competing options. At present, there's no contest. If you're a Rogue/Monk/Bard stealther, taking Shrouded Dance is a no brainer. It's the best stealth feat you can get once your Hide score can reliably hit Hide 30.

[Nemesis 24]

Referring to an earlier statement, I admit to finding concern in regards to the dismissal of PvP as being the exception and not the norm.  Sure, it isnt the majority of server combat.  It is however the single most important combat, the highest risk and the most dangerous of any combat on the server.  Dismissing it out of hand because of its frequency ignores how important it is to being able to even continue to play a character.  I do believe this is a rather major part of the problem presented.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Let's worry about it if and when it actually becomes a problem. Until then, I say leave it alone.

[Always_a_hero]

Well, if we focus entirely on the PvP, the feat will grant 50% concealment and an occasion to go into stealth for one round, keep in mind for a stealth build. From what I've seen, most of PvP is 1 on 1, so the only advantage I see is getting free sneak attacks for one round, since casting spells or doing any sort of action would break stealth mode and make it useless unless getting some distance and be really efficient at charging back in (again, player skill). If it's an ambush, then you just sneak like usual and if you're escaping, then good! But you got one chance at it, which still brings in a sort of logic and mechanics to take into account if you're playing a stealth character. If you want to waste it to disappear in the middle of the Outskirts instead of walking out of sight behind a building, I don't see a problem to it.

If we talk about PvP with more than one player on each side, then there is a chance of unfairness when it comes to character lvl and class strength/synergy, but it's still a risk a player must think of before engaging.

You need one button to enter stealth mode, and Shrouded Dance is just another to make it from anywhere, so it's a two buttons thing, not one.

[APorg]

Let's worry about it if and when it actually becomes a problem. Until then, I say leave it alone.

Or maybe the dev team could use the community as a resource to analyse and anticipate problems before they manifest? The Enchantment system had issues that ended up requiring some drastic overhauls, to the point of having to write login scripts to change gear on all PCs that logged in. Since then the dev team have moved to a format of announcing major changes beforehand so that they can be discussed and feedback can be assessed more thoroughly. Engagement is good for everybody, and saves work all around.

The community is not the dev team's adversary. When they announced they wanted to nerf Clerics' extra slots, Time Stop, or Greater Sanctuary, many of us rallied in support of the dev team, because we thought those were fair decisions that benefited the community as a whole -- I personally supported all three changes, despite playing characters who became weaker as a result. But if you cultivate an atmosphere where players should just shut up and accept things until problems become manifest, it instead encourages everyone to sit in ther partisan corner and only worry about things when it affects them personally.

[APorg]

You need one button to enter stealth mode, and Shrouded Dance is just another to make it from anywhere, so it's a two buttons thing, not one.

... No, HIPS automatically engages stealth.

[Iridni Ren]

Let's worry about it if and when it actually becomes a problem. Until then, I say leave it alone.

Or maybe the dev team could use the community as a resource to analyse and anticipate problems before they manifest? The Enchantment system had issues that ended up requiring some drastic overhauls, to the point of having to write login scripts to change gear on all PCs that logged in. Since then the dev team have moved to a format of announcing major changes beforehand so that they can be discussed and feedback can be assessed more thoroughly. Engagement is good for everybody, and saves work all around.

The community is not the dev team's adversary. When they announced they wanted to nerf Clerics' extra slots, Time Stop, or Greater Sanctuary, many of us rallied in support of the dev team, because we thought those were fair decisions that benefited the community as a whole -- I personally supported all three changes, despite playing characters who became weaker as a result. But if you cultivate an atmosphere where players should just shut up and accept things until problems become manifest, it instead encourages everyone to sit in ther partisan corner and only worry about things when it affects them personally.

I don't think the attitude of "let's wait until it's a problem" is very proactive for several reasons:

* It's already a problem for those who play Shadow Dancers and who have expressed unhappiness about the feat, aside from any mechanical abuse that might occur.

* Players will build their PCs based on the rules in place at any given time. It's not helpful or even fair, therefore, to react only after many players have developed character concepts with those assumptions in mind.

* These same players will naturally become much more intractable in their position and resistant to change. (See the Ranger class and recent changes to it.)

* It dismisses legitimate arguments without bothering to rebut them.

[McNastea]

My personal feelings are that, if people actually have to go out of there way to abuse it to make it seem like an issue that needs to be resolved, it might not be as big a deal as it seems.

Also, any high level character can dump on a low level garda. Being able to pester them then vanish from their sight is hardly the worst thing that a high level character -could- do in that situation. I really don't see how that is even relevant. In either case there would be repercussions, whether they mattered to the individual or not has little to do with what feat they may or may not have, or in what way they may have crossed the garda.

In both PvE and PvP it offers a once daily effect that can be used to 1) escape, or 2) get back in stealth and get some extra sneak attacks off. If it's the latter then you -probably- weren't struggling too hard in that fight to begin with, if you can use your escape technique for some extra damage as opposed to getting the hell out of there. It's also going to provoke an AoO, the same as using a bottled black would, and a scroll of darkness wouldn't even trigger one at all. It is a strong feat, but I really think it's been blown way out of proportion given it's once a rest use.

As for the requirements, it's a feat that will only really hit it's stride once a character gets to he lvl 10-12ish mark, regardless of whether they rush it or not. It will take them time to gather gear and spells to augment their stealth as well as levels to increase their base amount before they have to stop worrying about never failing the DC, much less pass the detection of anyone who's invested even a minor amount in detection. Even at lower levels character could hit 10 perform, which was a benchmark thrown out there, so I'm not sure I agree that changing it to that would change much since it would still take time to really use the feat to it's potential.

As for how it makes shadowdancers feel, I mean.. Come on guys. It's a once a day ability. That's so much different than what a shadow dancer is able to do it doesn't even compare. Saying otherwise ignores the fact that a shadow dancer can do it, and then do it again, and then do it again.. and again - and again. And it's not the only thing shadow dancers even do. It's a really rewarding class both mechanically and from a rp standpoint and to say that a feat which pales in comparison to their own ruins it for them is just silly to me. Sorry if that's dismissive but it's just my feelings on the matter.

That's just my thoughts on it, obviously you all feel differently but I figured I'd chime in since you've been at it all day

[Iridni Ren]

My personal feelings are that, if people actually have to go out of there way to abuse it to make it seem like an issue that needs to be resolved, it might not be as big a deal as it seems.

Also, any high level character can dump on a low level garda. Being able to pester them then vanish from their sight is hardly the worst thing that a high level character -could- do in that situation. I really don't see how that is even relevant. In either case there would be repercussions, whether they mattered to the individual or not has little to do with what feat they may or may not have, or in what way they may have crossed the garda.

In both PvE and PvP it offers a once daily effect that can be used to 1) escape, or 2) get back in stealth and get some extra sneak attacks off. If it's the latter then you -probably- weren't struggling too hard in that fight to begin with, if you can use your escape technique for some extra damage as opposed to getting the hell out of there. It's also going to provoke an AoO, the same as using a bottled black would, and a scroll of darkness wouldn't even trigger one at all. It is a strong feat, but I really think it's been blown way out of proportion given it's once a rest use.

As for the requirements, it's a feat that will only really hit it's stride once a character gets to he lvl 10-12ish mark, regardless of whether they rush it or not. It will take them time to gather gear and spells to augment their stealth as well as levels to increase their base amount before they have to stop worrying about never failing the DC, much less pass the detection of anyone who's invested even a minor amount in detection. Even at lower levels character could hit 10 perform, which was a benchmark thrown out there, so I'm not sure I agree that changing it to that would change much since it would still take time to really use the feat to it's potential.

As for how it makes shadowdancers feel, I mean.. Come on guys. It's a once a day ability. That's so much different than what a shadow dancer is able to do it doesn't even compare. Saying otherwise ignores the fact that a shadow dancer can do it, and then do it again, and then do it again.. and again - and again. And it's not the only thing shadow dancers even do. It's a really rewarding class both mechanically and from a rp standpoint and to say that a feat which pales in comparison to their own ruins it for them is just silly to me. Sorry if that's dismissive but it's just my feelings on the matter.

That's just my thoughts on it, obviously you all feel differently but I figured I'd chime in since you've been at it all day

I personally have no opinion about it at all because of being largely ignorant of the issues being argued

So far, however, I find the argument about its having "low barriers to entry" persuasive.

[APorg]

As for the requirements, it's a feat that will only really hit it's stride once a character gets to he lvl 10-12ish mark, regardless of whether they rush it or not. It will take them time to gather gear and spells to augment their stealth as well as levels to increase their base amount before they have to stop worrying about never failing the DC, much less pass the detection of anyone who's invested even a minor amount in detection. Even at lower levels character could hit 10 perform, which was a benchmark thrown out there, so I'm not sure I agree that changing it to that would change much since it would still take time to really use the feat to it's potential.

You're phrasing it like Stealth enhances this feat. It's the opposite: this feat enhances Stealth. At an effective cost of a mere 5 Perfromance and one feat, it's a major upgrade.

Again -- compare that with the book feat on which it's based, which gives 20% concealment (which goes down ton effective 4% if the other party has Blindsight), versus one use of HIPS per day for any Rogue/Monk/Bard stealther with Performance 5.

One of those effects is a game-changer that significantly alters late game PVP balance. The other is not. Yet we've priced them the same.

As for how it makes shadowdancers feel, I mean.. Come on guys. It's a once a day ability. That's so much different than what a shadow dancer is able to do it doesn't even compare. Saying otherwise ignores the fact that a shadow dancer can do it, and then do it again, and then do it again.. and again - and again. And it's not the only thing shadow dancers even do. It's a really rewarding class both mechanically and from a rp standpoint and to say that a feat which pales in comparison to their own ruins it for them is just silly to me. Sorry if that's dismissive but it's just my feelings on the matter.

Actually, I totally get why Shadowdancer players would feel annoyed. I know precisely how much effort has to go into a Shadowdancer application, I've been on the CC as well and seen first hand how high we set the bar. Sure, Shadowdancer players can use the effect again and again -- but there's also a somewhat implicit understanding that abusing HIPS is a perfect way to get your next Shadowdancer application denied.

Compared to that high requirement (which comes on top of the PRC pre-reqs), the cost for getting one HIPS per day is now.... effectively 5 Performance and 1 Feat. And sometimes all you need is one HIPS per day.

[McNastea]

But it's a HiPS that isn't instant, it takes a round, and causes and AoO. It's a HiPS that isn't actually using the rp of the class. It's a HiPS that you can literally -never- abuse because you can only use it one time once a rest.

HiPS for Shadow Dancers is something that they can use when they want, they have a CD on HiPS now so that we don't have to worry about people using it to go in and out of stealth literally every round. That's why we put the CD on the ability in the first place. That is no longer an issue.

The RP of the class is the hardest thing for people to get right in my opinion. People think it's a simple matter of "I like being sneaky", when it's in fact far deeper than that, and should be causing your own character a large bit of internal struggle.

Someone using Shrouded Dance is just throwing down a smoke grenade and ninja disappearing. It's a really solid escape and I get that, but it's not the offensive ability that Shadow Dancers, or even high level Rangers, get.

I'm not strictly opposed to a higher requirement for skills either, I just don't think it would matter terribly much as the feat currently works unless your point was to make it only useable to character in the 15+ range.

[APorg]

I'm not strictly opposed to a higher requirement for skills either, I just don't think it would matter terribly much as the feat currently works unless your point was to make it only useable to character in the 15+ range.

It already is, effectively. As I've already pointed out, as written, this feat is OK at mid-levels and overpowered once passing the DC 30 Hide check becomes automatic. That's part of the problem. Once they can hit DC 30 Hide, short of a gank attack, their opponents must have a detector to catch them, radically altering scenarios where a stealther might otherwise be caught in the open. This is why I think moving to a DEX check is a lot fairer.

And again, the other part of the problem is that it's incredibly cheap. It only costs 5 Performance and 1 Feat. This does not compare to Shadowdancer investment, which requires 5 Performance, Dodge, Mobility, and moving to a 6 Skillpoint per level class, which for Rogues is an effective opportunity cost of at least another 10 skill points, on top of the difficult Prestice Class application.

(Note that I'm also ignoring the Hide/MS requirements for Shadowdancer here. Again, Hide/MS requirements are already covered by committing to being a stealther. Anyone who thinks these are actual build gates is mistaking the tail for the dog. I'm not even going to consider Monk/Shadowdancer or Bard/Shadowdancer here, really. Pure Monks and pure Bards are excellent high level PvP classes; the opportunity cost of going to Shadowdancer from Monk or Bard is significant.)

So really it is a difference of scale. Shadowdancers are few and far between. Every Rogue, Bard (especially now that Bards are 6 Skill points per level and are more likely to invest in Stealth), and Monk can afford to take Shrouded Dance. Indeed, if they're a stealther, they should take it. It's the game balance of equivalent money on the table.

(And bringing up Rangers should have an obvious retort: there's a simple counter to Ranger HIPS, don't chase them in the wild. That at least makes thematic sense; Rangers should be the best class in the wild. Shrouded Dance can be used everywhere.)

[Revenant]

There is a reason G. Sanc was nerfed. This is effectively G. Sanc for stealth-capable characters, with a much lower bar for entry. Arguing that it isn't OP because it's used primarily for getting out of a bad situation is silly, considering that G. Sanc was nerfed for exactly the same reason.