Weapon Versatility - Wielding a weapon with both hands

[basedSHARK]

In DnD 5th Edition they feature weapons with the Versatile trait, which allows you to wield them with both hands for a small damage die upgrade. For example, you could two-hand a longsword to upgrade it's 1d8 Slashing damage to a 1d10 if you wield it with both hands. Naturally this means you are sacrificing your shield or your second offhand weapon doing this. I would like to suggest this mechanic be introduced as a way to better thematically fit the use of characters who would wield such versatile weapons as a Bastard Sword (known in real-life for having a grip long enough to allow for both single and two-handed use) and the Katana.

I'd like to hear your views on the topic. Is this too overpowered? How will it work with the Bonetti's Defense feat-line? I personally would be fine if it cancels out the defense bonus from Bonetti's to gain a damage die upgrade, but perhaps you might think otherwise? Should other weapons also benefit from two-handing, such as maces or hammers? It'd absolutely make sense for something like a battle-axe to be able to be two-handed for additional chopping power.

[McNastea]

This is something I was thinking about a while back that I never got aroind to suggesting. With the EE oit it may acyually be possible to implement though im not entirely sure. If it were I think it should cancel out bonetties just because the gain in dmg should have a give take, in this case the take being your ac, just like every other two handed weapon.

[Anthaxious]

Yes, if this is ever implemented, it has to negate the single-weapon fighting AC feats.

[Always_a_hero]

So basically, this “option” (since it sounds much like a combat mode such as power attack or expertise) could make -any- weapon of medium size or smaller be considered like a two-handed weapon (I.e. large weapons). The result could
possibly be the increase of the weapon’s damage die (d4 becomes d6; d10 becomes d12 though nothing goes higher than 1d12), but it could also have for effect that the strength dmg applied gets a 50% increase in damage like a large weapon would... Removing the bonus AC of single handed feats and would require Improved Parry to gain 1 party AC per 5 points.

[gainreduction]

Sounds good to me!

[Arawn]

At present we don’t have this level of control over the engine.

[Always_a_hero]

Otherwise, would it be possible to create a combat mode which would give the properties of two-handed weapons to a single-handed weapon without shield in the off-hand? I.e. just the 50% bonus to strength damage? Hm... I don’t know if it would be much efficient in game though, as it highly ressemble good old power attack, except without a malus to AB (for now).

[Green Monster]

Found this while looking for something else, so I thought I'd mention what I know of how it works in NWN2.

In NWN2, you are automatically considered to be wielding a melee weapon with both hands if you have nothing in your off hand. I think an additional criteria is that the weapon cannot be of a size category smaller than the character, ex, a human can wield a longsword in both hands, but not a short sword or dagger. A halfling can wield a short sword in both hands, but not a dagger. If that's not a criteria, it should be.

The effect of wielding a weapon in both hands in NWN2 is to change the strength damage bonus from 1x to 1.5x. There is no adjustment to the base damage of the weapon.

[lucid]

The effect of wielding a weapon in both hands in NWN2 is to change the strength damage bonus from 1x to 1.5x. There is no adjustment to the base damage of the weapon.

Also doubles Power Attack damage.

There was also "Monkey Grip" so you could one-hand a large weapon, reversing the process. I actually don't like that one much.

[zDark Shadowz]

Spoiler: show

At present we don’t have this level of control over the engine.

You can get close by altering the size category that a creature is treated as, like a monkey grip thing for 2h users to use a 1 handed weapon by switching them to a large category, or two-handing a 1 handed weapon by changing them to a small size category, but the other bonuses / penalties due to size changes need to be accounted for.

It won't be a damage dice upgrade or degrade but it would affect the strength modifier multiplier.

I'm not sure how Amia does it, either there's a script that can alter creature size, or if it's tied to the creature skin appearance they may have duplicated the base race models but with different creature size constants beside it in the .2da file, and IG it shifts the creature appearance to that duplicated appearance (this then usually requires relogging so that weapons can be equipped in the new manner.)

[EO]

Creature size affects many other things sush as resistance to knockdown and AC. It can be adjusted but it’s not a good workaround for this.

[Green Monster]

I noticed that there are new feats such as Bonett's Defense (kudos for the Princess Bride reference!) that are centered around having a one-handed weapon and nothing in the off hand. The NWN2 way of automatically making the one-handed weapon gripped two handed would break this from an IC standpoint. The "fencing" idea of an ac bonus is, I think, to reflect the smaller target area of a person standing side-ways on to their opponent with just the one weapon. Two-handing the weapon breaks this IC.

IF anything to allow two-handed grip of one-handed weapons were implemented, I would suggest making it a feat rather than automatic. A feat that is activated like Power Attack, and when this feat is activated it disables the ac bonus from Bonettis' defense. Maybe, since it would then have drawbacks like having to buy the feat and disabling other feats, a non-magical attack bonus could be added to represent better control of a smaller weapon when you use two hands.

Double Grip
Activated
When this mode is activated, if you have a one-handed weapon equipped in your main hand and nothing in the off-hand, you gain +1 (non-magical) to your attack rolls and a physical damage bonus equal to 1/2 your Strength bonus (rounded down). If you have the feats "Bonetti's Defense", "Thibault's Geometry", or "Agrippa's Fundamental Guards", you loose the shield AC bonus while Double Grip is active.* If you already have a two-handed weapon equipped, or anything in your off-hand (including torches, flags, etcetera), Double Grip mode has no effect.

*When activated the feat not only checks to see if there is a one-handed weapon and nothing else, but also checks for those feats. For each of those three feats it encounters, it imposes a -1 shield ac penalty that goes away when Double Grip mode is de-activated. No need to re-write those other feats.

My only problem with this is that, since you can only have one combat mode active at one time, you cannot use your weapon two-handed while using Power Attack or Expertise, which makes the opposite of IC sense; two-handing a longsword should make both of those modes more effective, not impossible.


[EDIT]: Just had a thought: It could be a scripted implementation activated by an @ command so that it functions in power attack and expertise modes. Maybe still require purchasing a feat and still negate the Bonetti's Defense, etc, bonuses when active. Like @weaponstyle toggle whether the character is using their one-handed weapon with one hand or two.

[Silas Rotleaf]

Spoiler: show

The effect of wielding a weapon in both hands in NWN2 is to change the strength damage bonus from 1x to 1.5x. There is no adjustment to the base damage of the weapon.

Also doubles Power Attack damage.

There was also "Monkey Grip" so you could one-hand a large weapon, reversing the process. I actually don't like that one much.

I remember the NWN2 monkey grip feat Lucid.

Spoiler: show

You could use it for that but also yeah on a larger character like a half orc wield two 2 handed weapons one handed each. The trade off was when using it your character hits with reduced accuracy I guess since using a larger weapon than they normally would (small stature races like halflings and gnomes) or two large weapons at once (on a larger race) is physically unwieldy.  Yes, it was very niche and many builds you’d never even need it.
It was okay for if you wanted to use two great axes at once or on small characters not have to use a shortsword (I think it was maybe?) as a two handed weapon but those were kind of the only times it ever came up.

So for the opposite of that would you have a character using a normally one handed weapon two handed with improved accuracy?

[Green Monster]

So for the opposite of that would you have a character using a normally one handed weapon two handed with improved accuracy?

That's what I suggested. Updated suggestion below, removes the combat mode nature of my original suggestion so that the feat could be used while using power attack or expertise.

Double Grip
Passive

Gives your character an optional weapon style to wield a normally 1-handed weapon with two hands. To activate this style, type "@DoubleGripOn" in the chat window (without the quotes). If you have a two-handed weapon already equipped then this will have no effect. If you have a one-handed weapon equipped, then anything in your off-hand is unequipped and your character is assumed to now be wielding main weapon two-handed. While doing so your character gains +1 (non-magical) to attack rolls and a physical damage bonus equal to 1/2 Strength bonus (rounded down). If you have the feats "Bonetti's Defense", "Thibault's Geometry", or "Agrippa's Fundamental Guards", you lose the shield AC bonus from those feats while Double Grip is active.

Equipping a shield or anything else in your off-hand (included a torch) cancels Double Grip style. Typing "@DoubleGripOff" in the chat window turns the style off (You can also toggle the style on or off by just typing "@DoubleGrip").

This would allow use of combat modes such as Power Attack and Expertise while using the Double Grip feat. Suggest a notification in the server message window when this style is activated and deactivated. Suggest the three possible commands so that each player can choose whether to use two quick slots for accuracy or just one toggle quick slot for slot conservation.

This would be pretty useful in conjunction with the Bonetti's Defense feats. A person could adapt their levels of offense vs defense on the fly with a single weapon. Just have to spend 3 or 4 feats and have decent dex.

[zDark Shadowz]

With the way NWN is set up from the looks of it, what is hardcoded to decide which weapons are one-handed or two handed is a comparison to the weapon size in regards to your creature size.

One option would require additional weapon templates in the .2da, but then they won't benefit from feats, the other would affect additional modifiers such as AB/AC, hide/Ms & knockdown checks...

I think the only way to make it work would be the latter option, altering creature sizes, but knockdown would be the issue that can't easily be resolved. Everything else can be fixed with AB/AC/Hide/MS alterations.

If creature size adjustments is not an option, then this suggestion, while it would be nice, isn't something that can be done right now unless they carry over the scripting from NWN2 over to NWN:EE.

So - send the suggestions to Beamdog to try put Monkey Grip into the game and this may become a reality as they're the only ones that can adjust the hard-coded stuff, otherwise it's not something we'll see on Ravenloft any time soon.

[Green Monster]

With the way NWN is set up from the looks of it, what is hardcoded to decide which weapons are one-handed or two handed is a comparison to the weapon size in regards to your creature size.

One option would require additional weapon templates in the .2da, but then they won't benefit from feats, the other would affect additional modifiers such as AB/AC, hide/Ms & knockdown checks...

I think the only way to make it work would be the latter option, altering creature sizes, but knockdown would be the issue that can't easily be resolved. Everything else can be fixed with AB/AC/Hide/MS alterations.

If creature size adjustments is not an option, then this suggestion, while it would be nice, isn't something that can be done right now unless they carry over the scripting from NWN2 over to NWN:EE.

So - send the suggestions to Beamdog to try put Monkey Grip into the game and this may become a reality as they're the only ones that can adjust the hard-coded stuff, otherwise it's not something we'll see on Ravenloft any time soon.

My suggestion could be done. My suggestion is to give a small attack and damage bonus to simulate wielding a normally one-handed weapon with two hands, not actually making it be wielded in two hands. When using Bonetti's Defense we're not actually standing side-ways on to our opponent and presenting a smaller target like a fencing master. We have to pretend.

[BraveSirRobin]

At present we don’t have this level of control over the engine.

Idk how Arelith does it, but it works as advertised over there for Bastard Swords getting a 1.5x str modifier, assuming you aren't wielding a shield in the off-hand. So it becomes a 1d10 Greatsword if you're flanking, and a 1d10 Bastard Sword if you're wielding a shield and tanking.