Author Topic: Monks, the forgotten class?  (Read 811 times)

Sinful Mystic

  • Red Vardo Traders Front
  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2018, 02:11:41 PM »
I mean, pretty much nothing can beat a paladin or a cleric when they are full buff. That's the point of their class. If they have time to buff, they are huge powerhouse with high AC and damage. But if caught with their pants down, they will die VERY quickly. You can't compare classes like that, because they each have different roles, strengths, weaknesses. If you bring up paladins and clerics full buffs, then every other class is crap compared to that.

You are kind of helping the point.

Thing is we are comparing a melee class to other melee classes and you concede it is inferior. There is nothing a monk does better than anyone except run away and pvp wizards at high levels apparently.

They lack value because they bring nothing to the party someone else can't do much better.
Mishandra-Warrior of Vandria-semi active
Shanaz Quoa-Monk of the Lawgiver-semi active
Monique Gallant- RVT-active
Angelique RIP

Chabxxu

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2018, 02:29:04 PM »
I mean, pretty much nothing can beat a paladin or a cleric when they are full buff. That's the point of their class. If they have time to buff, they are huge powerhouse with high AC and damage. But if caught with their pants down, they will die VERY quickly. You can't compare classes like that, because they each have different roles, strengths, weaknesses. If you bring up paladins and clerics full buffs, then every other class is crap compared to that.

You are kind of helping the point.

Thing is we are comparing a melee class to other melee classes and you concede it is inferior. There is nothing a monk does better than anyone except run away and pvp wizards at high levels apparently.

They lack value because they bring nothing to the party someone else can't do much better.

How am I helping your point? You're comparing apples and oranges together. It's pretty much as if you watch a sorcerer/wizard fight a cleric or druid in a spell battle. Of course the wizard/sorcerer will win, it's WHAT THEY ARE GOOD AT. Same for the cleric/paladin in a full buff battle. Monks have other advantages, but you simply seem not to be able to see them, and focuses on things monks aren't the best at. They can't be good at everything.

Pav

  • The Salt-Spangled Man with NO Plan!
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 832
  • Probably out to ruin your day
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2018, 02:52:47 PM »
When people legitimately think Monks are bad in the year of our lord, 2018

Spoiler: show
Playing: Toxicity Avoidance Simulator 2019

Keyser

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2018, 03:09:32 PM »
I know people can share my sentiments toward monks with other classes like paladins, and I want to say that while I've seen plenty of people of all classes drop the ball (myself included), I have also seen very successful Paladins, Clerics ect. I've just never personally encountered a monk that made me think they were a monk. I've never been convinced is all. Not to say I never could be, I just have not yet. I don't think it's the fault per-say of the players either. I think it's just the nature of the class in general. I wouldn't know how to begin with it either to be fair. It's just my least favorite class I've ever encountered in NWN and that has nothing to do with the mechanics. I think Monks are pretty dope mechanically, especially with buffs and they are anything but forgotten.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 03:12:04 PM by Keyser »

Sinful Mystic

  • Red Vardo Traders Front
  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2018, 03:32:55 PM »
I mean, pretty much nothing can beat a paladin or a cleric when they are full buff. That's the point of their class. If they have time to buff, they are huge powerhouse with high AC and damage. But if caught with their pants down, they will die VERY quickly. You can't compare classes like that, because they each have different roles, strengths, weaknesses. If you bring up paladins and clerics full buffs, then every other class is crap compared to that.

You are kind of helping the point.

Thing is we are comparing a melee class to other melee classes and you concede it is inferior. There is nothing a monk does better than anyone except run away and pvp wizards at high levels apparently.

They lack value because they bring nothing to the party someone else can't do much better.

How am I helping your point? You're comparing apples and oranges together. It's pretty much as if you watch a sorcerer/wizard fight a cleric or druid in a spell battle. Of course the wizard/sorcerer will win, it's WHAT THEY ARE GOOD AT. Same for the cleric/paladin in a full buff battle. Monks have other advantages, but you simply seem not to be able to see them, and focuses on things monks aren't the best at. They can't be good at everything.

Melee class compared to other Melee class is apples to oranges? Ok then.

Again, I see them. It is foolish to assume someone who disagrees with you does not understand.

The narrative here has nothing new to offer. Monks can kill wizards when they are near 20th level so they are a great class. That's the logic we're getting. Every class does something well. Warriors hit, Rangers are uber sneaks, rogues umd and lock/trap etc. Monks run away and kill mages at high levels.

That is a very limited and specialized/situational use. More so than any other class.

If we want the closest comparison class I think it has to be ranger. Ranger like monk has melee and stealth capacity. However one has huge bonus in stealth, spells and buffs, better acceess to gear, superior ab, and can come close in ac with buffs.

You guys are all looking at the last couple levels and pvp with mages and ignoring the tedious journy to get there.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Mishandra-Warrior of Vandria-semi active
Shanaz Quoa-Monk of the Lawgiver-semi active
Monique Gallant- RVT-active
Angelique RIP

ViktorYouFool

  • The Underworld
  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2018, 05:20:42 PM »
Let's simplify the issue dramatically:

Monks are the only Medium BAB class that lacks the ability to mitigate their Medium BAB:
> Bards: Self buff, Antagonize, UMD
> Clerics: Superb self-buffs and divine feats
> Druids: Self-buffs, shapeshifting, and shifter feats
> Rogues: Antagonize, UMD

Monks are also the only Medium BAB class that lacks a party utility outside of hitting things:
> Bards: Party buffs, Bardsong, Curse Song
> Clerics: Party buffs, Heals, turning undead.
> Druids: Party buffs, Heals.
> Rogue: Trap/Lock utility.

You can have a Bard who doesn't fight. They have enough useful skills and buffs that they can still be useful.
You can have a Cleric who doesn't fight. Caster clerics have enough buffing and healing that they are useful without picking up a weapon.
You can have a Druid who doesn't fight. Druids have enough buffing spells and skills that they can be useful without picking up a weapon.
You can have a Rogue who doesn't fight. There is a rogue tax on most of the high-level content on this server anyway that a utility rogue is worth keeping around just for locks and traps.

Monks? Monks are a combat class. Every ability they have is directly about hitting something or surviving combat to continue hitting things.
> Cleave - Hitting things
> Evasion - Surviving Combat
> Flurry of Blows - Hitting things
> Improved Unarmed Strike - Hitting things
> Stunning Fist - Hitting things
> Deflect Arrows - Not getting hit
> Fiery Fist - Hitting things
> Monk Speed - Getting into hitting range faster
> Still Mind - Surviving combat
> Purity of Body - Surviving Combat
> Improved Knockdown - Hitting things
> Wholeness of Body - Surviving Combat
> Fiery Ki Defense - Surviving Combat
> Ki Blast - Hitting things
> Improved Evasion - Surviving Combat
> Ki Strike +1 - Hitting things
> Diamond Body - Surviving Combat
> Diamond Soul - Surviving Combat
> Ki Strike +2 - Hitting things
> Quivering Palm - Hitting things
> Ki Strike +3 - Hitting things
> Empty Body - Surviving Combat (exiting it, in this case)
> Perfect Self - Surviving Combat

The core of the problem is that monks are a class entirely about hitting things. All of their class features are in support of hitting things. They are the only Medium BAB class that offers nothing to a party beyond the hitting of things, and yet because they can't mitigate their poor AB, they are also the worst at hitting things of any of those classes.

This is the problem people keep pointing at. Monks have a ton of cool stuff about them, but the primary utility they have to a party is hitting things and they aren't good at it.

The solution to this would be pathetically simple. Just give them something that knocks their AB up a few points. Make Ki Fist be an EB instead of a counts-as EB. Give them access to a version of Greater Weapon Focus. Monastic Training: +2 to hit with unarmed strikes and monk weapons. Whatever. Something. That's all they need to be a really strong class and make the effort to get up there worthwhile. Until then, this thread will keep popping up every so often whenever a new person plays their monk for a while and finds that they aren't really pulling their weight in a group.

DrXavierTColtrane

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 737
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2018, 07:08:07 PM »
Two other negatives to playing a monk are alignment restriction and the prohibition against cross-classing. The only other class on the server so severely restricted is paladins. The other medium BAB classes that you list can also multiclass should they want to focus on combat or increase their party utility through some other means, or the array of gear available to them, but not the monk.

The solution to this would be pathetically simple. Just give them something that knocks their AB up a few points. Make Ki Fist be an EB instead of a counts-as EB. Give them access to a version of Greater Weapon Focus. Monastic Training: +2 to hit with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

Both Quivering Palm and the attack bonus need fixing.

For QP, Improved Quivering Palm. This could be granted automatically at 17th level as currently the level gives nothing but an extra hit die.

AB could be fixed by making Flurry of Blows work as it does in 3.5.
For everything that's lovely is
But a brief, dreamy, kind delight.

BahamutZ3RO

  • Master of Many Alts
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2238
  • Do you think this is a #&^&ing game, domn?
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2018, 08:00:09 PM »
Quote
I can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?

Monks suffer from the same thing that Paladins and Druids suffer from; they're weird and difficult for people to roleplay, so even though mechanically they're great they don't appeal to many people. Monks can be very powerful on PotM.
Fane Silivasi / Edwin Aubert / Marianne Sondheim / Nelu Stoichita
Ata Ubaid / Bruhm Blackwrought / Craven



Sinful Mystic

  • Red Vardo Traders Front
  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2018, 08:11:12 PM »
Quote
I can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?

Monks suffer from the same thing that Paladins and Druids suffer from; they're weird and difficult for people to roleplay, so even though mechanically they're great they don't appeal to many people. Monks can be very powerful on PotM.
There are a lot of Paladins, but fair point on Druids. I think though that Druids are also so inferior to clerics they lose the race.

People tend to favour strong classes.
Mishandra-Warrior of Vandria-semi active
Shanaz Quoa-Monk of the Lawgiver-semi active
Monique Gallant- RVT-active
Angelique RIP

Nemesis 24

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2018, 08:48:38 PM »
Quote
I can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?

Monks suffer from the same thing that Paladins and Druids suffer from; they're weird and difficult for people to roleplay, so even though mechanically they're great they don't appeal to many people. Monks can be very powerful on PotM.
There are a lot of Paladins, but fair point on Druids. I think though that Druids are also so inferior to clerics they lose the race.

People tend to favour strong classes.

With the focus on more and more power that seems to be the neverending focus of the playerbase of what is supposed to be a rp focused server, I think this statement is symptomatic of the problem at hand on the server as a whole.  We're supposed to be a server to explore concepts and characters  that appeal to us, not what the strongest build is.  Threads like this make me think we are losing sight of that.

Wallow

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2018, 10:23:55 PM »
Not forgotten, perhaps played less because they are mechanically perhaps the most straightforward. Not a lot of depth. Which can be uninteresting to some. I like that monk can be challenging in the beginning (not to me, as long as you know your limits). But the rewards later on something to look forward too.  And monks could be considered least likely to die. Just run from anything you can't handle, usually fighters. Your saves and spell resistance will deter those pesky nerds and their spellbooks.
Someone said they can be hard to role-play, I'd say otherwise. A lot of fun.

PrimetheGrime

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2018, 12:37:01 AM »
I have yet to see a single monk roleplayed as a monk and instead they are all just brawlers. This isnt isolated to this server, I dont think I've ever met a monk on any server who actually RPed a MONK. I wouldn't bother making any more changes to the class personally. I do not mean to offend any monk players here but I also will not blow smoke up your butts either. I just find Monks to be a cheese class that hurts my immersion more than helps it every time I see one. Maybe someday I'll meet a convincing monk but after about 10+ years on and off of NWN, I still have not met one.

Yeah, well, another indication of what monks must contend with, in part because of being a small minority class. Imagine if someone referred to all paladin RP as cheese and that no paladin ever RPs being a paladin.

Though not to offend any of you who play paladins.

I haven't met many people that don't roleplay their paladin and their respective duties to their deity. However, when it comes to the monks I've seen, very few of them seem to even grasp the essence of the monk.

Sinful Mystic

  • Red Vardo Traders Front
  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2018, 12:54:21 AM »
Quote
I can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?

Monks suffer from the same thing that Paladins and Druids suffer from; they're weird and difficult for people to roleplay, so even though mechanically they're great they don't appeal to many people. Monks can be very powerful on PotM.
There are a lot of Paladins, but fair point on Druids. I think though that Druids are also so inferior to clerics they lose the race.

People tend to favour strong classes.

With the focus on more and more power that seems to be the neverending focus of the playerbase of what is supposed to be a rp focused server, I think this statement is symptomatic of the problem at hand on the server as a whole.  We're supposed to be a server to explore concepts and characters  that appeal to us, not what the strongest build is.  Threads like this make me think we are losing sight of that.

I do not see why they have to be mutually exclusive? Discussing the mechanics of a class in no way implies a lack of interest in rp or an inability to do so. Some of us can rp and still think about game mechanics at the same time.

I am not a big fan of power being the main motive behind playing a class but playability being a concern and discussed? Seems kind of practical. Balancing and trying to promote power escalation on the server are not quite the same thing.
Mishandra-Warrior of Vandria-semi active
Shanaz Quoa-Monk of the Lawgiver-semi active
Monique Gallant- RVT-active
Angelique RIP

Telkar

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1621
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2018, 08:37:07 AM »
"Power" and exploring concepts and characters that appeal to us, is a material for another topic I think. I was going to comment on that here because it's something I've contemplated a lot, but there's just so much to say and I think it'd derail the thread really. I could participate in such a discussion in a new topic though. :)

Kazbah

  • Theatre de la Cathedrale
  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Diablerie
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2018, 08:39:32 AM »
My guide to playing a monk:
Spoiler: show


DrXavierTColtrane

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 737
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2018, 12:10:28 PM »
Quote
I can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?

Monks suffer from the same thing that Paladins and Druids suffer from; they're weird and difficult for people to roleplay, so even though mechanically they're great they don't appeal to many people. Monks can be very powerful on PotM.
There are a lot of Paladins, but fair point on Druids. I think though that Druids are also so inferior to clerics they lose the race.

People tend to favour strong classes.

With the focus on more and more power that seems to be the neverending focus of the playerbase of what is supposed to be a rp focused server, I think this statement is symptomatic of the problem at hand on the server as a whole.  We're supposed to be a server to explore concepts and characters  that appeal to us, not what the strongest build is.  Threads like this make me think we are losing sight of that.

Rather sanctimonious sermonizing for the author of "Power-Building Paladins for Dummies":

Paladin Builds - Comprehensive Guide and Advice

Now, this won't be a discussion about the roleplay and the limitations and difficulties of playing a Lawful Good paladin that's for another topic!  This is for the building of such a beast, from the ground up.


What follows is a more than 7,000 word treatise by you focused on the very subject you would now lament as "the problem at hand on the server as a whole." Care to climb down off the heights of that 20th level paladin soapbox and be the change you want to see? I suggest you explore the Ravenloft studio space with a Gnomish monk character concept for a while as an exhibition of how you're opposed to the gaucheness of powergaming.

I haven't met many people that don't roleplay their paladin and their respective duties to their deity. However, when it comes to the monks I've seen, very few of them seem to even grasp the essence of the monk.

First off, you are not supposed to criticise the RP of others as it's against the rules. Twice now every roleplayer of monks on the server has had their RP characterized as cheesing and not even "grasping" the "essence of the monk."

Who are you to say what the "essence of the monk" is? How would you like it if I dictated to you how a paladin should be played? You have only reinforced my point in that because paladins are a powerful and therefore popular class there's an immediate posse to defend them if the slightest criticism is even hinted at. I did not, in fact, criticize paladins. I said only that because of the small representation of monks they had to make due with fewer class defenders than would paladins having to endure similar smack talk. And here you are as proof.

Your claim doesn't bear much logical scrutiny either. The playerbase is the playerbase is the playerbase. It is illogical to believe that the same players who all roleplay paladins well would all roleplay monks poorly. I have played both a paladin and a monk, and evidently so has Sinful Mystic. Your argument implies, therefore, that there is something about the paladin class that lends itself to good roleplay and something about the monk class that lends itself to poor roleplay. Have you considered that it is your own preconceived notions of each class that cause this reaction in you? You are simply revealing your own stereotypes and biases.

As with Nemesis, practice what you preach. Let us smell some of that funky monky essence by playing a monk concept yourself, rather than remaining saddled on your cushy paladin high horse and telling the rest of us how bad we all are at roleplaying monks.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 12:12:40 PM by DrXavierTColtrane »
For everything that's lovely is
But a brief, dreamy, kind delight.

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1655
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2018, 12:20:39 PM »
Guys, please stay on topic and remain excellent to each other. Keep the discussion constructive.
Best Regards!
MAB

Proud member of the Dev team, kindly working nights and days to bring you all more creative ways to slay all your PCs, faster and more efficiently!

Nemesis 24

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2018, 12:51:53 PM »
// Edited out at the player's request.

MAB
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 01:18:54 PM by MAB77 »

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1655
Re: Monks, the forgotten class?
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2018, 12:59:41 PM »
And we're done here. I am not blaming anyone, but this is clearly heading in a direction it should not.
Best Regards!
MAB

Proud member of the Dev team, kindly working nights and days to bring you all more creative ways to slay all your PCs, faster and more efficiently!