Public (OOC) > Setting and Lore Discussion

Monks, the forgotten class?

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Sinful Mystic:
I've been playing around with a monk the last few weeks because I really liked the concept, but I had almost no experience playing one beyond my friend HolyFlyingTarkus, aka Gwyn complaining they were unplayable until finally quitting.

I have had a brutal experience thus far. Her AC is offensive, the AB is awful, and gear is largely unavailable. I hurt the build to improve the ab but that is not helping.

Now I'll say the 1-4 Iron Knuckles you can buy in town are an awesome starting item. Bonus points if you follow the Lawgiver :).

Throwing stars are awful and I am unaware of a craftable version so you go sling or crossbow. Kama's work out nicely, easy enough to get silver steel ones so that is not an issue but robes, good gloves and boots are.

I have got a bit of luck getting a +1 robe with +1 heal and +1 gloves that do 1-4 electric. Sun soul and/or any kind of dodge boot seem to be a thing of the past.

Now the robe of course is inferior to any kind of crafted armour and I only got it out of luck/pity. I happen to know IC the only Monk of note on the server and he was going to dump them anyway. Had I not had that luck I would still be in a shirt of the treant/bone/chains etc because monk robes are never for sale at the Mist Camp. Gloves arent either unless you want 1-4 slashing, piercing etc, nothing +1 seems to drop.

So you have a melee class that has the worst ac of any class except maybe a low level wizard, which is close. It has a lousy ab and is almost forced to use expertise on top of that. You need so many stats that extra hit points from con are a tough thing to pull off. So you burn more healing than anyone else. Herbalism is a must take skill/expense because you need potions to function.

Ah but at least they have stealth you say?

Do they really?

So there are no stealth robes that are common that are not rogue only. You can do the whole mouse outfit easy enough but you are losing those core armour stealth points that rogue garb would give you 3/3 on. Maybe you get ebon tiger clothes for +2 hide. You are still the worst sneak on the server. Rogues have UMD so they can cast scrolls,if they can afford it. Bard and Ranger get spells to boost their stealth. What does Monk get? 0.

I should also point out because survival is so hard the feat demands and skill point demands are huge. If you want to do stealth you are sacrificing a core skill like dicipline/heal and Lore is not an option at all. Never mind an rp skill like antagonize or influence, just not an option.

So you are the worst melee class, the worst stealth class, forced to do a craft and have low chances of getting any kind of good gear. You have one perk. You are the fastest herb collector.

Basically Monks bring nothing to the table. If I'm the party tank, even with buffs, we're in trouble or were doing a dungeon too low for us. I'm not spying on anyone unless I'm 10 levels higher than them. I am an rp character who people bring along not because I'm useful, but just because of my rp flavour.

That I am aware of only one monk who is active above me in level suggests there is no more undesirable class to play. So the question becomes can we level the playing field?

I'd like to suggest +2 robes and sun soul boots be added to the loot table. Throw -5 perform, -5 UMD or whatever you have to to balance the budget but they should exist.

I also think bonus feats for stealth would be a good idea. +1 MS/Hide per 4 levels would probably be fair and balanced. That +5/5 probably still puts you behind the 8-ball and you have to be lvl 20 to get there.

Last, I think you need some bonus skill points and maybe an extra feat on creation. Maybe circle kick should be free later on as well?

I'm just spit balling here and I know balancing classes is a tricky business but in this instance there is no debate that Monks are in a league of their own in a bad way. Might be worth fixing them up and making them a real option, instead of a novelty class.

haifisch021:
Monks are good in a flanking role. They are not as strong as their beefier counterparts in terms of AC and frontlining, but their AC and access to the Tumble skill, as well as their incredible speed, gives them enough AC to run behind enemy lines and get flanking bonuses to help mitigate their less than stellar BAB. Additionally, monks have an insane number of APR. If a monk builds for crit range their lower BAB will not matter nearly as much. The APR and speed also make monks excellent at chasing things down, and keeping them down via Improved Knockdown.

Of course, I can't say I've seen much monk gear drop lately, either (except for some gloves). And monks do have a lesser kit for stealthing compared to other stealthing classes, though I feel that this is mitigated by their utility. A new addition in EE, Shrouded Dance, seems perfect in the hands of a stealthy monk however. As long as a monk can hit a DC 30 Hide check, the monk gains HiPS and 50% conealment for one round. Since monks are so fast, they will get the most use out of this tool as an escape mechanism simply due to the distance they can put between them and the enemy.

All in all, on paper monks might look like the "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" class but they can be so much more than that. Certainly there is room for improvement, but I think it is a step too far to call them a "novelty class." At the very least, monks have some niches in the meta that they can comfortably fill.

Sinful Mystic:

--- Quote from: Barris on May 18, 2018, 03:34:46 PM ---Monks are good in a flanking role. They are not as strong as their beefier counterparts in terms of AC and frontlining, but their AC and access to the Tumble skill, as well as their incredible speed, gives them enough AC to run behind enemy lines and get flanking bonuses to help mitigate their less than stellar BAB. Additionally, monks have an insane number of APR. If a monk builds for crit range their lower BAB will not matter nearly as much. The APR and speed also make monks excellent at chasing things down, and keeping them down via Improved Knockdown.

Of course, I can't say I've seen much monk gear drop lately, either (except for some gloves). And monks do have a lesser kit for stealthing compared to other stealthing classes, though I feel that this is mitigated by their utility. A new addition in EE, Shrouded Dance, seems perfect in the hands of a stealthy monk however. As long as a monk can hit a DC 30 Hide check, the monk gains HiPS and 50% conealment for one round. Since monks are so fast, they will get the most use out of this tool as an escape mechanism simply due to the distance they can put between them and the enemy.

All in all, on paper monks might look like the "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" class but they can be so much more than that. Certainly there is room for improvement, but I think it is a step too far to call them a "novelty class." At the very least, monks have some niches in the meta that they can comfortably fill.

--- End quote ---

I can think of 2 monks, one of which I play. What is your definition of novelty? Why do you suppose no one plays them?

Rogue is the Jack of all trades class. Monks simply do not have the skill points, or skill options to do that. They are a 2nd class fighter/sneak forever.

Chabxxu:
Monks can be incredibly powerful in the higher levels if you put the work into it.

Here are a few perks that make monks very good:

-Highest saving throws in the game.
-They get the most attacks per round of any other class. 6 attacks per round, without haste, at lvl 18 is totally massive.
-They have a massive, almost stupid, speed.
-Their normal attacks are effectively +3 EB, which is even better than enchanted weapons, on par with adamantine.
-They get improve evasion, which makes any reflex save spell pretty much useless against them.
-They get a some free Spell Resistance of 10 + level, which means a nasty 30 SR whenever you walk in the street at lvl 20. Have fun casters!
-You're immune to all poisons.
-You can deflect arrows.
-You can an instakill ability, quivering palm.
-Normal weapons can't hurt you once you get lvl 20.
-Being virtually unkillable by anything because of the combination of hp/AC/speed/saves. You can always get away from a fight.

Now, of course, there is some negatives to being a monk, and lower levels are definitly harder. But one advantage of monks is that they keep growing in strength as they level. A normal fighter can usually get their AC around 26-27 unbuff with a few items early on, but then, they stop getting more AC until they get enchanted gear. Monks always keep getting AC bonuses, because of tumble, AC bonus from being a monk, parry, etc. Also, they are one of the classes that gets the most from a caster, since there is so many of their stats that can be buffed.

So no, monks are definitly not a weak class. They are very strong, but you need to put more time into them than you'd do with other classes.

Sinful Mystic:

--- Quote from: Chabxxu on May 18, 2018, 05:26:32 PM ---Monks can be incredibly powerful in the higher levels if you put the work into it.

Here are a few perks that make monks very good:

-Highest saving throws in the game.- true
-They get the most attacks per round of any other class. 6 attacks per round, without haste, at lvl 18 is totally massive.- Yes but their ab is so bad only the first one is a good chance to hit
-They have a massive, almost stupid, speed.- Yes speed is their big thing
-Their normal attacks are effectively +3 EB, which is even better than enchanted weapons, on par with adamantine.-look at the Ab chart and get back to me
-They get improve evasion, which makes any reflex save spell pretty much useless against them.-nice and all but it does not make them worry anyone, not the only class with this benefit
-They get a some free Spell Resistance of 10 + level, which means a nasty 30 SR whenever you walk in the street at lvl 20. Have fun casters!- lvl 12, not strong enough to be meaningful against a good caster of the same level, Dwarfed by Barbarian SR
-You're immune to all poisons.- You're already forced to be a herbalist so this is not a big benefit
You can deflect arrows.- 1 arrow per round
-You can an instakill ability, quivering palm.-not sure about DC's on this so cannot comment on the advantage
-Normal weapons can't hurt you once you get lvl 20.- yeah lvl 20 is grand but you have to get there and who are you fighting with normal weapons at lvl 20? try a base soak item some time, most things cut through it
-Being virtually unkillable by anything because of the combination of hp/AC/speed/saves. You can always get away from a fight. yep, the speed and the AC, very late,- it's great to be hard to kill, not so much to not be able to hit anything. The AC is nothing compared to a class with buffs. compare to a fighter long term and you are trading 2 ac for 7 ab. I'll assume the hit points comment was a joke

Now, of course, there is some negatives to being a monk, and lower levels are definitly harder. But one advantage of monks is that they keep growing in strength as they level. A normal fighter can usually get their AC around 26-27 unbuff with a few items early on, but then, they stop getting more AC until they get enchanted gear. Monks always keep getting AC bonuses, because of tumble, AC bonus from being a monk, parry, etc. Also, they are one of the classes that gets the most from a caster, since there is so many of their stats that can be buffed.

So no, monks are definitly not a weak class. They are very strong, but you need to put more time into them than you'd do with other classes.

--- End quote ---

So why does no one play them? maybe because they are hell to play until high levels?

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