Author Topic: Open a door stealthily  (Read 392 times)

Telkar

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Open a door stealthily
« on: May 13, 2018, 01:10:29 PM »
Just something that popped up in my mind while thinking:

A system that lets you get past an unlocked door without opening it so that PC's in the vicinity won't notice it opening. A private message can be sent to PC's that succeed a spot/listen check. I'm thinking of the mechanism like the door can be targeted with a feat (able to do in stealth mode), then the character is teleported right to the other side of it and checks are made.

This would be good for spying RP scenarios where a door is in the way and would spoil the whole thing to the players of the spied on characters.

NOTE: Don't have to discuss it here. Just something for devs to pick up on if it seems like an interesting idea.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 01:27:52 PM by Telkar »

A minor Glamour

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2018, 11:57:27 AM »
I don't think it makes much sense to teleport through a closed door just by successfully making move silently checks, but I think passing checks to open a door unseen/unheard is a good idea, maybe a successful check will open the door without alerting NPC's.

Telkar

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2018, 01:38:34 PM »
I couldn't think of a better way than teleporting to not notify PCs (at least OOCly, which spoils, everyone can hear and see the door open and close). That's the main thing I was after. Of course, ICly you wouldn't be teleporting, but opening the door stealthily, slipping inside and closing it again. That's similar to area transitioning when you think about it. There could be a private yellow message describing the event.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 01:41:21 PM by Telkar »

derkotushka

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2018, 02:24:51 PM »
Character under effect of spell Ethereal Jaunt can 'teleport' behind not locked door. Simple need stand very close and click on door. And character 'teleport' on other side of door.
Strange what it is not works on locked doors. Must be Dark Powers magical locks on doors.  :D
I am sure this effect from Ethereal Jaunt spell and doors can be made as some rogue special player tool.
Or at least as player tool for Shadowdancer.
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ViktorYouFool

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2018, 02:35:35 PM »
At the risk of playing contrarian:

It's bad enough that I can literally stand in front of a door, staring into the doorway, where there is only one entrance or exit, and not be able to see a character stealthing through it. I know where you're coming in. It's a fixed location. I'm physically in your way. But because of the way transitions work and the way the stealth mechanics work, I can physically be in a doorway and you can still sneak past me.

I'm not sure I would want this to escalate to "and now I don't have to even open the door."

Darkside of Heaven

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 05:47:29 PM »
What about a DC check for opening a door silently.

In stead of selecting open door you pick open silently (MS Check DC 25). Failed DC opens the door normaly so youll have to walk through it. Succesful DC pops you on the other side.

Wooden doors have a lower DC than say a steel door or heavy door.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 05:49:12 PM by Darkside of Heaven »

ladylena

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 07:03:34 PM »
This would be very cool. I agree with Medea, I think it'd be great for shadowdancers. Or perhaps small creatures like a fairy. I think it would be kinda OP if anyone with move silent could do it. Although, it could be neat if there could be some message that pops up reading a text based on the how well the check is.

For example: say babin wants to sneak into jacks room. He clicks the door to open it hoping to rp-wise open it slowly and just enough to slip through. Babin rolls 26 vs 25dc, a text could come up saying 'you hear a door close' if Jack rolled on par for a listen check, and then a spot check would reveal if he catches the door being open.

Be really neat if there was a way to code it so players facing the door gain bonuses to catching the sneak sneaking in.

Telkar

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 07:15:35 PM »
Great ideas. :)

Using common sense, I think if you're facing the door, you should get a huge bonus, like you'd have to be nearly blind not to notice, no matter how stealthy the sneaker is. :p

ViktorYouFool

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 08:45:30 PM »
This would be very cool. I agree with Medea, I think it'd be great for shadowdancers. Or perhaps small creatures like a fairy. I think it would be kinda OP if anyone with move silent could do it. Although, it could be neat if there could be some message that pops up reading a text based on the how well the check is.

For example: say babin wants to sneak into jacks room. He clicks the door to open it hoping to rp-wise open it slowly and just enough to slip through. Babin rolls 26 vs 25dc, a text could come up saying 'you hear a door close' if Jack rolled on par for a listen check, and then a spot check would reveal if he catches the door being open.

Be really neat if there was a way to code it so players facing the door gain bonuses to catching the sneak sneaking in.

I actually wouldn't be so bothered by the notion if it was a shadowdancer thing. You can fluff their shadow-jump nonsense as to why they can sneak through blah blah. Fine. It just rubs me the wrong way that there can be a single point of entry into or out of a room and while standing in that entryway, someone can stealth through it without being seen. The game mechanics of stealth are supposed to compensate for the fact that you can't fictionally position yourself behind crates, climb on rafters, etc the way you could to sneak around in PnP... but when the fictional positioning would utterly prevent you from sneaking into a place, it creates some really silly results.

Darkside of Heaven

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2018, 09:09:34 PM »
Unfortunately stealth is hard coded so cant do much about peoplr standing right infront of you.

Also not sure how easy (really hard) it would be to use other peoples skills to detect a door opening.

Developers "might" be able to place properties on the door like DC MS checks and maybe if you open a door failing the MS check or open a door normaly it puts a 5 or 10 second negative effect on your MS/Hide skills to help with other pcs detecting.

But in doing that dungeon stealth would be near impossible. So applying to non dungeon doors only would solve that but the server lag would grow immensely with everyone rolling to open doors and such.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 09:13:28 PM by Darkside of Heaven »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 09:14:41 PM »
I agree with the general attitude of Viktor toward this idea.

It's simple enough IRL to stand against a door if one  is discussing something secret or to wedge a piece of furniture against it even if sleeping. You can't make a door (that's swinging open) "hide" no matter how skilled you yourself are at hiding.

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Philos

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2018, 09:36:30 PM »
Most doors already have that script on them actually, even outside of dungeons Darkside of Heaven. Anything you have to open, unlock, pick  up will incur a hide and Ms penalty. The reason you dont see the stealth checks is bc you're not hostile to someone/thing in your detection radius. The difference is that if you fail one of those checks, the ones you see in your combat log, you're completely destealthed instead of just being revealed to the creature that detected you.

I've spent a fair amount of time exploring our Stealth system, more than most I'd hazard. I like some of the ideas proposed but disagree on a few points. While it would be cool to not have the door open actually open, it's just not realistic. That door is open. It should be able to been seen as such and used as such. What if that door was trapped? What if someone was trying to follow you didn't notice? No amount of your own hide skill can ever make that door appear as anything less than open and it should be represented properly ig.

What I think you could do however, is a dex or Ms check to open the door silently. Here, the actual audio that plays when you open a door, chest, object, etc would be silenced. A bit like silent spell. Normally, the audio plays through out the entire zone. This is a bit unrealistic Imo. For example, if I'm at the palace and someone exits the bank, I can hear that door opening and closing despite being no where remotely near detection range. Observant players will still be able to notice a door opening/closing if they are in visual radius this way. I'm more partial to a dex check bc there will still be some chance of failure with normal dc. With an Ms skill check the chance of failing whatever the DC happened to be is virtually nil. Even buffed at Max levels a PC could still easily fail a dex check of 15.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 09:51:49 PM by Philos »

Telkar

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2018, 09:48:43 PM »
(Written before Philos)

When I thought of this, I was more thinking about scenarios in which the sneaker is slipping through a door with other PC's nearby where they don't even see the door. In this game, even if you are a fairly long distance away, even in another room, you can hear and see doors opening and closing which your character ICly might not. It can become a bit of a spoiler and be distracting if ICly, a conversation is meant to be private.

(After Philos)

There we're on to something. Being able to open things without the sound is a big plus. It'd be kind of unlikely that a player is keeping an eye on doors all the time.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2018, 09:59:31 PM »
Might be a lot of work for the Devs with little benefit, though, as many players say they listen to something else while playing the game or otherwise have the volume turned down.

When I play, I listen to the game sounds. Nevertheless, even with the door opening sound, I've been caught a couple of times unaware because it happens so often that you hear a door when it's not even the door closest to you :)

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Telkar

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2018, 10:12:20 PM »
Hehe, well, I'm always super aware of the surroundings myself. No music for me. :p

But yea, it popped into my head since it's relevant to me. I'd find it spoiling and distracting and hard to carry on a supposedly private conversation with the OOC knowledge of a spy, at least in the same way as if I didn't know of him. Sometimes it's just better not to know. ;)

The devs can put this in their idea pile and prioritize as they wish.

StellarNope

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2018, 11:33:11 PM »
I am wholly against this idea for two big and complicated reasons.

1. Stealth is not invisibility, despite how NWN treats it. In pen and paper D&D you need cover or concealment in order to attempt a hide check and the only thing that removes this need is total cover or total concealment.  Right now in NWN far too many treat stealth the same as they would treat an invisibility spell, standing out in the open in places where there would not be crowds, or objects to obstruct view of them. They will stand right next to you in an open field.

So a system that would allow them to get into a room unannounced would be just as abused. You already have stealthers on this server and throughout NWN's history who have snuck into inn rooms, some of which are little bigger than prison cells, and stay stealthed for minutes or hours at a time. And now the second reason.

2. Spying on someone is a PvP action in my mind. You are spying on them to learn information you would not otherwise be able to obtain and in some cases this information could be used to grievously harm another PC or an entire group of them. PotM does not allow you to attack another PC without making them hostile and waiting ten seconds, not to mention other courtesies that may or may not be extended.  Why should it be any different in this case, when you could cause far more harm to a character with spying than you would by mechanically stabbing someone?

The proposed system is unnecessary in player and player environments as you could simply communicate OOC'ly with the person, announce your intentions, and try to work out something in that manner. Server has a no metagaming rule, and rules for announcing PvP. If someone were to message me and state that they wished to try and sneak into the room my character was in I would allow it, provided they make the proper checks. Trust in your fellow players to not be butts, and if someone is a butt then you can talk to a DM or the community council.

Darkside of Heaven

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2018, 06:29:30 AM »
^
Checks for stealth are made automatically i believe you roll MS VS Listen every round you move / step. And Hide VS Spot is eveytime to leave a concealed area.

Maybe a new rule should be when spying on someone hostile them first. This may however change what people say because of meta gaming so no real spying / intel gathering can take place.

Might be best to leave stealth it how it is.

Philos

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2018, 10:05:51 AM »
There's a difference between the passive Stealth/detection rolls you make every 6 seconds and those provoked by opening a door, picking up or dropping an object or opening a lock. Passive checks have both the stealthing character and detecting character roll their respective skills and then the engine saves those rolls. Those roles are then compared five times every second to account for the different stealth and detection modifiers such as moving, wearing a light being in the detectibg characters back arc etc. Even if you initially beat the detecting characters roll, if you perform another action during those 6 seconds such as walking you'll receive a penalty and should that put you beneath their modified detection score you will be revealed to that detecting character.

The stealth and detection rolls you see in your combat log when ninja looting are something entirely different. They are to determine whether it's possible for you to remain in stealth at all. They are provoked when you perform some sort of action that hinders your ability to remain stealthed. Picking a lock gives you up to a 30 point penalty, picking up something really heavy gives you a 50-point penalty. Every you perform one of these actions you make a check against each creature you perceives dectection roll at penalty. Should you fail one of those rules you are removed from stealth and visable to everything.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 10:42:10 AM by Philos »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Open a door stealthily
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2018, 10:21:53 AM »
Quote
Spying on someone is a PvP action in my mind. You are spying on them to learn information you would not otherwise be able to obtain and in some cases this information could be used to grievously harm another PC or an entire group of them. PotM does not allow you to attack another PC without making them hostile and waiting ten seconds, not to mention other courtesies that may or may not be extended.  Why should it be any different in this case, when you could cause far more harm to a character with spying than you would by mechanically stabbing someone?

A PC could certainly take being spied on as hostile--and it often is. Suspiria was in a room when a stealther was detected and summarily knifed to death :D

OTOH, a garda was spying on Iridni the other night and detected, and Iridni reacted like "whatever."

I don't think the hostiling courtesy for PVP has anything to do with the degree of harm it might cause. The way it's been explained to me in the past is it is to prepare the player ever so slightly for the likelihood of an attack and thereby lessen the OOC shock.

Stealthing doesn't represent this same immediate danger of imminent death, and--as my first example shows--it can in fact be much riskier to the person stealthing than to the target. (Naturally, a stealther must set someone to hostile before she commences actual PVP.)

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