Author Topic: The Very Butcher of a Silk Button: Swashbucklers for PotM EE  (Read 1383 times)

ViktorYouFool

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Swashbuckler
Spoiler: show
Quote from: Complete Warrior
The swashbuckler embodies the concepts of daring and panache, favoring agility and wit over brute  force, the swashbuckler excels in both combat situations and social interactions, making her a versatile character indeed.

Quote from: Duelist PRC Class
The Duelist is a nimble, intelligent fighter trained in making precise attacks with light weapons, such as the rapier. Also known as the swashbuckler, the Duelist always takes full advantage of his quick reflexes and wits in a fight. Rather than wearing bulky armor, Duelists feel that the best way to protect themselves is to not get hit at all.

Quote
Base Attack Bonus: +1/Level
Hit Die: d10
Primary Saving Throws: Fortitude, Reflex
Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, light armor
Skill Points (*4 at 1st level): 4+Int Modifier

Class Skills: Antagonize, Concentration, Discipline, Heal, Influence, Listen, Lore, Parry, Perform.

Unavailable Skills: Animal Empathy, Use Magic Device

Bonus Feat Progression:
(Standard/Default)

Abilities:
Level 1: Weapon Finesse (as per the general feat)
Level 2: Dodge (as per the general feat)
Level 3: Insightful Strike (below)
Level 5: Swashbuckler Dodge +1
Level 7: Mobility (as per the general feat)
Level 10: Swashbuckler Dodge +2
Level 11: Luck of Heroes (as per the general feat)
Level 13: Weakening Critical (below)
Level 15: Swashbuckler Dodge +3
Level 17: Slippery Mind (as per the rogue feat)
Level 19: Wounding Critical (below)
Level 20: Swashbuckler Dodge +4

Insightful Strike
At 3rd Level, a swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage. She applies her Intelligence bonus to damage rolls (in addition to any strength bonus she may have) with any light weapon, as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as a rapier. Targets immune to sneak attacks or critical hits are immune to the swashbuckler's insighftul strike. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor, or when encumbered.

Swashbuckler Dodge
A swashbuckler is trained at focusing her defense on a single opponent in melee. She gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks from her current target or last attacker. This bonus increases by +1 at every five levels after 5th (+2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th, +4 at 20th). A swashbuckler loses this bonus when wearing medium or heavy armor or when encumbered.

Weakening Critical
A swashbuckler of 13th level or higher who scores a critical hit against a creature also deals 2 points of Strength damage to the creature. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.

Wounding Critical
A swashbuckler of 19th level or higher who scores a critical hit against a creature also deals 2 points of Constitution damage to the creature. (This damage is in addition to the Strength damage dealt by the swashbuckler’s weakening critical class feature.) Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.


Changes
The above is a more or less faithful transcription of the Swashbuckler class listed in the Complete Warrior and as implimented in NWN2. A couple changes have been made:
Spoiler: show
Saves: The Complete Warrior makes Fort their primary save. NWN2  makes Reflex their primary save. In both incarnations, they get an ability called Grace that grants an additional +1-3 to Fort saves when wearing light armor or less. Given that this is a light-armor class, it will probably be dex-based anyway, thus giving them reflex+grace seemed unnecessary. It's easier all around just to give them two decent saves than script one to be conditional.

Dodge is an addition, but it seemed silly to have a special ability based on dodge but without the actual ability to use dodge.

Some other features from the source material were not suggested/implemented with the above.

Improved Flanking is meant to give a +4 attack bonus when flanking instead of a +2. This should kick in at 8th level, but unless there's a comparable ability with an existing script, it seems like it would be a huge pain to handle. It also seems to go against the dueling vibe of a swash-buckler.

Acrobatic Skill Mastery gives an odd bonus wherein a swashbuckler cannot roll less than a 5 on a tumble check, even in combat. Given that this kicks in at level 14, it seems .. less than useful, as anyone taking this class will have been taking Tumble anyway. I considered replacing this with Spring Attack, but by the time you get it you'll already automatically pass the AoO rolls.


Other Suggestions:
Spoiler: show
Given the nature of the class and its reliance on dodge AC, I'd also heavily suggest giving them access to Uncanny Dodge I at level 8, and potentially Uncanny dodge II at 14. It would also be worth tossing in Evasion at some point as well, given how much the class focuses on being quick on one's feet.

Duelists
Similar in nature, the Duelist class from the PRC offers some other things of flavor:

Of general/existing feats, Duelists get a number for free: Thug, Spring Attack, Improved Initiative, and Deflect Arrows. Spring Attack is silly for the reasons above, but Improved Initiative and Deflect Arrows both reinforce the fighting style and panache of the class. Plus, Deflect Arrows is just cool.

They also get a few interesting bits unique to the class:

Canny Defense grants the int mod to AC when the character is not wearing armor. This is granted to duelists for free at level 1, and fits the theme very well. Of any of the Duelist abilities, this is the one that would be best fitting as an addition to the Swashbuckler class.

Precise Strike adds extra damage when using finesse weapons. 1d4 per 5 levels of Duelist. Unnecessary if Insightful Strike is being implimented, though Precise Strike is easily superior (if overpowered).

Elaborate Parry is among the most attractive of the if the options, which is somewhat overpowered. You get a bonus to your parry while in parry mode equal to your class level OR a "Defensive fighting mode" that gives a bonus to AC of Class Level+2 to a max of +12 in exchange for a -4 to attack rolls.

Both of these options are probably far too strong in terms of their benefit, but the essence of the concept is actually pretty neat and thematic for what this character is meant to do. A bonus to the Parry skill based on class level (say 1 in 2 or 1 in 4) would give another reason to play a swashbuckler instead of just a dex-based fighter (who will possess so very many more feats), and the parry bonus itself is of fairly limited use. In practice it would only help you hit the parry AC cap early, provide a slight edge when in parry mode (one that can already be exceeded by existing gear). That said, if Swashbuckler Dodge is implemented, this may be superfluous.


Parting Thoughts
The class makes for a melee combatant that specializes in a certain kind of fighting, but gains a few unique tricks and a more versatile skill selection for its trouble. If this class got Uncanny Dodge I-II and Evasion as suggested above, it would be perfect for its role as a versatile yet specialized front-liner. Even with these, the class still isn't overpowered compared to the current incarnation of Barbarian, the abilities Rogues can grab, or the self-buffing capacity of Rangers or Bards.

Thematically, it's a perfect class for places like Port, or for characters from any of the more "civilized" regions of the core. It offers enough unique goodies to be worth considering over an equivalent dex-based fighter, but doesn't wholly eclipse the same.

By contrast, the dex-based fighter still has a strong place. They have access to medium armor and shields, and through the unique fighter feats, they wind up with better AB (Greater Weapon Focus), more damage (Weapon Specialization), and a number of other abilities (overwhelming critical, the charisma feats) in addition to the greater number of combat tricks (improved knockdown, improved disarm etc) that a dex-based fighter could more easily afford due to having nearly twice the feats of a swashbuckler (14 vs 27).



Nemesis 24

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Re: The Very Butcher of a Silk Button: Swashbucklers for PotM EE
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 05:08:07 AM »
While I don't mind the concept, the idea of a base class that can kill anything by doing tiny amounts of damage but draining their constitution or strength feels extremely powerful.  Especially as a base class.  This class has the potential to outdo any rapier weapon master, or anyone for that matter in close combat.  A crit draining two stats at once is incredibly lethal, especially getting full bab and d10 hp.

ViktorYouFool

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Re: The Very Butcher of a Silk Button: Swashbucklers for PotM EE
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 05:11:16 AM »
While I don't mind the concept, the idea of a base class that can kill anything by doing tiny amounts of damage but draining their constitution or strength feels extremely powerful.  Especially as a base class.  This class has the potential to outdo any rapier weapon master, or anyone for that matter in close combat.  A crit draining two stats at once is incredibly lethal, especially getting full bab and d10 hp.

That was as it was written in both NWN2 and Complete Warrior. That said, it will still have nothing on the raw damage of a WM, the AB of a Fighter, the massive damage output of a Rogue which can do the same thing via crippling strike, but on every hit (pop a Heart of the Beast and go to town) the AB or damage of a Barbarian (plus the massive amount of goodies you can make your rage do. 40SR, anyone?) or the insanity of a what a cleric or paladin can do fully buffed.

Also worth noting that it can't kill anything that way, as anything that is immune to crits or sneak attack damage is unaffected. Meanwhile, against those same targets a WM is going to do more damage more often or a rogue is going to chew up and spit out.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 05:13:26 AM by ViktorYouFool »



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Re: The Very Butcher of a Silk Button: Swashbucklers for PotM EE
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 05:20:00 AM »
Crippling strike only works on sneak attack for a start, which renders it not as strong as this.  This also works on every crit (which is going to be a 13+) which means you'll roll a crit on average on 2 attacks per round, draining 4 strength and 4 constitution per round (with no save I might note).  You can even safely pop improved expertise at super high AC, and simply whittle any opponent down to death with simple no save crit fishing, doing which will also steadily drop health down.

Raw damage is irrelevant when you can simply drop a stat to 3 or 0 and kill them instantly as a result.  Even with a crit fishing combat, with the opponent getting gradually weaker as the fight continues and their strength drops, that's incredibly unbalanced.  Regardless of whatever stat book it comes from (after all, splat books allowed the creation of Pun Pun, they're not balanced for NWN.)

ViktorYouFool

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Re: The Very Butcher of a Silk Button: Swashbucklers for PotM EE
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2018, 05:43:02 AM »
Regardless of whatever stat book it comes from (after all, splat books allowed the creation of Pun Pun, they're not balanced for NWN.)
As stated, it's also that way in NWN2. That said it's very conditional. We're talking about 14th and 20th level play, respectively.

A level 20 barb can toss a +10 to their strength and con with the push of a button. A great-axe barb doesn't need to whiddle you down with a series of crits. One or two will kill you flat out from raw HP.

A rogue or assassin getting the drop on you can land up to 6 crippling strikes (-12 strength) in the first round, doing a total of 60-66d6 damage before weapons or stats are taken into account. Given that Heart of the Beasts are not terribly difficult to come by, not to mention scrolls and such, the AB difference isn't that great.

We won't even touch the insane AC or AB or Damage various self-buffing classes can do, let alone the silliness that comes when you compare mages to anything.

On the other hand, even if we go with the worst case scenario (rapier with imp crit taken as a feat AND a source of keen on it) you're not doing 4 points of ability damage every time you roll a 13+. You still have to actually hit your opponent to do it (which often gets down to fishing for 20s at the high end of combat), and even then the entire feature is completely defeated by anyone who is immune to criticals or sneak attacks (Barbarians, rogues, shadow dancers, dwarven defenders, assassins, pale masters...) or anyone who has a couple restoration potions on hand. Additionally, if the thing is scripted in the same way as the actual Crippling Strike feat, it can't reduce an ability score below 3 anyway.

That said, feel free to suggest alternate benefits in the place of those, but then they have to be alternate benefits that don't step on the toes of other classes.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 05:44:35 AM by ViktorYouFool »



ethinos

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Re: The Very Butcher of a Silk Button: Swashbucklers for PotM EE
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2018, 12:52:26 PM »
The other problem with Strength draining is that everyone here would probably become encumbered immediately if you lost 2 points of Strength in PvP. I like the class, just not these stat draining effects. Personally, I like the Duelist class better and think it would be very nice for Port characters.
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