Author Topic: Blade Thirst Duration  (Read 943 times)

Philos

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2018, 02:12:17 AM »
Two spells

Clairvoyance/audience and Insight.

One of the traits of Rangers is being focused around detection. Despite that they have no access to spells that aid them is this. The two I suggested above are both appropriate as spot, listen and search are ranger skills. Clairvoyance/audience provides bonuses to both.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 03:12:17 AM by Philos »

Pav

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2018, 06:50:19 AM »
Quality of ranger life would be better served by expanding the list of spells.

No, I disagree. That has nothing to do with quality of life, or balance, as it only adds to variability which then needs to be addressed with QoL and balance in mind.

Two spells

Clairvoyance/audience and Insight.

One of the traits of Rangers is being focused around detection. Despite that they have no access to spells that aid them is this. The two I suggested above are both appropriate as spot, listen and search are ranger skills. Clairvoyance/audience provides bonuses to both.

I figure having both is a bit much. I would rather have it be just Insight, to compliment Search which is as valuable a trait as Spot/Listen for the classical Ranger.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 06:57:21 AM by Pav »
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noah25

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2018, 10:06:53 AM »

Let's get the ball rolling.

Gravity Bow

School transmutation; Level ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1; Elemental School metal 1, void 1

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range personal
Targets you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)

DESCRIPTION

Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from a gravity bow (see table on this page for associated increase/decrease in damage due to size change). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage as normal for their size.

Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage Medium Weapon Damage    Tiny Weapon Damage    Large Weapon Damage
1d2        1d3
1d3    1    1d4
1d4    1d2    1d6
1d6    1d3    1d8
1d8    1d4    2d6
1d10 1d6    2d8
1d12 1d8    3d6
2d4    1d4    2d6
2d6    1d8    3d6
2d8    1d10 3d8
2d10 2d6    4d8

From the Pathfinder Advanced Player Guide. Could be implemented like Darkfire/Sonic Weapon/Bless Weapon/Corrupt weapon. Since most rangers would use longbows I would recommend it just apply a 1d6-1d8 damage bonus to their current arrow stack, making it a viable low level alternative to buying player-made arrows.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gravity-bow

Edit: There is also another variant of this spell for melee weapons.

Lead Blades

School transmutation; Level ranger 1

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range personal
Targets touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)

DESCRIPTION

Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades (see table below). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.

Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage Medium Weapon Damage    Tiny Weapon Damage    Large Weapon Damage
1d2        1d3
1d3    1    1d4
1d4    1d2    1d6
1d6    1d3    1d8
1d8    1d4    2d6
1d10 1d6    2d8
1d12 1d8    3d6
2d4    1d4    2d6
2d6    1d8    3d6
2d8    1d10 3d8
2d10 2d6 4d8

It is from the same book, Pathfinder Advanced Player Guide. I'm not sure if such a spell could be made self-only. An alternative would be making it castable on allies and keeping its damage higher than the bless weapon spells, since it is physical damage and more likely to be resisted by DR.  Also since, as physical damage, if the weapon is already enchanted, or receives a magic weapon spell it can have issues with NWN overriding +physical damage of the same type as the base weapon.
[/quote]

This seems extremely overpowered to me, though I think insight and clairvoyance is a good idea. I've always thought rangers were the class who made the most sense to have insight.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2018, 10:21:55 AM »
Rangers are primarily martial. They're not supposed to be strong spell casters.

As long as this topic was about a specific spell, I've tried not to diverge too much from it, but if we're going to start talking about generally buffing ranger spells, I find the entire idea that rangers as a class need improving pretty strange.

From the class description:

Quote
Their martial skill is nearly the equal of the fighter, but they lack the latter's dedication to the craft of fighting. Instead, the ranger focuses his skills and training on a specific enemy - a type of creature he bears a vengeful grudge against and hunts above all others. Rangers often accept the role of protector, aiding those who live in or travel through the woods. His skills allow him to move quietly and stick to the shadows, especially in natural settings, and he also has special knowledge of certain types of creatures. Finally, an experienced ranger has such a tie to nature that he can actually draw on natural power to cast divine spells....

A ranger's spells are an after-thought.

Compare the fighter and ranger class. Both get full attack bonus, and both get the same number of hit points. A ranger is proficient in far more skills. A ranger gets twice as many skill points.

Rangers have better saves on POTM than fighters because they get two primary saves (reflex and fortitude), whereas fighters get only fortitude. Although fighters nominally get extra feats. the ranger receives specialized feats for free, and favored enemies--as Legion pointed out--can cover almost everything on the server, especially if one wants to build for PvP. Outdoors, they get Hide in Plain Sight!

Why would anyone want to be a fighter instead of a ranger?

On top of all that, spells. Their spells should be generally weak.

If they want clairvoyance/clairaudience, let them buy potions/scrolls or take up herbalism--just as a rogue (also a detect/sneak specialist) would have to. Rangers have detection skills built in, whereas spell casters must use precious spell slots that could be devoted to something else to have temporary access to these skills that rangers have all the time.

And while we're on the subject of spells, Awaken should be removed from rangers' spell selection. Druids (pure casters) get it at the 5th circle, whereas rangers get it at 4th. Why? Having and being able to buff an animal companion is much more essential to a druid (received at 1st level rather than 6th) than it is to a ranger.

Because rangers are such a strong class, many players have opted to build ranger PCs. As a result, support for making the ranger class even stronger is going to be numerous and vocal. But that rangers need unilateral strengthening versus other classes is not supportable.

TLDR: If rangers are weak, why are so many players building them?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 10:24:59 AM by Iridni Ren »

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Sword

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2018, 10:27:44 AM »
Why would anyone want to be a fighter instead of a ranger?

I heard of these things called bonus feats that seem to be pretty great, but that's just the word on the grape vine. I wouldn't know personally or anything.
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peps

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2018, 10:28:07 AM »
Rangers are primarily martial. They're not supposed to be strong spell casters.

As long as this topic was about a specific spell, I've tried not to diverge too much from it, but if we're going to start talking about generally buffing ranger spells, I find the entire idea that rangers as a class need improving pretty strange.

From the class description:

Quote
Their martial skill is nearly the equal of the fighter, but they lack the latter's dedication to the craft of fighting. Instead, the ranger focuses his skills and training on a specific enemy - a type of creature he bears a vengeful grudge against and hunts above all others. Rangers often accept the role of protector, aiding those who live in or travel through the woods. His skills allow him to move quietly and stick to the shadows, especially in natural settings, and he also has special knowledge of certain types of creatures. Finally, an experienced ranger has such a tie to nature that he can actually draw on natural power to cast divine spells....

A ranger's spells are an after-thought.

Compare the fighter and ranger class. Both get full attack bonus, and both get the same number of hit points. A ranger is proficient in far more skills. A ranger gets twice as many skill points.

Rangers have better saves on POTM than fighters because they get two primary saves (reflex and fortitude), whereas fighters get only fortitude. Although fighters nominally get extra feats. the ranger receives specialized feats for free, and favored enemies--as Legion pointed out--can cover almost everything on the server, especially if one wants to build for PvP. Outdoors, they get Hide in Plain Sight!

Why would anyone want to be a fighter instead of a ranger?

On top of all that, spells. Their spells should be generally weak.

If they want clairvoyance/clairaudience, let them buy potions/scrolls or take up herbalism--just as a rogue (also a detect/sneak specialist) would have to. Rangers have detection skills built in, whereas spell casters must use precious spell slots that could be devoted to something else to have temporary access to these skills that rangers have all the time.

And while we're on the subject of spells, Awaken should be removed from rangers' spell selection. Druids (pure casters) get it at the 5th circle, whereas rangers get it at 4th. Why? Having and being able to buff an animal companion is much more essential to a druid (received at 1st level rather than 6th) than it is to a ranger.

Because rangers are such a strong class, many players have opted to build ranger PCs. As a result, support for making the ranger class even stronger is going to be numerous and vocal. But that rangers need unilateral strengthening versus other classes is not supportable.

TLDR: If rangers are weak, why are so many players building them?

I agreed up to the point you made about Awaken.

Awaken, a spell that's only ever accessible at level 14 for a Ranger. Druids have access to it at level 9.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2018, 10:29:56 AM »
Quote
I agreed up to the point you made about Awaken.

I got tired of purely playing defense :P

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2018, 10:30:24 AM »
Why would anyone want to be a fighter instead of a ranger?

I heard of these things called bonus feats that seem to be pretty great, but that's just the word on the grape vine. I wouldn't know personally or anything.

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noah25

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2018, 10:31:40 AM »
I don't think rangers are weak and by no means think rangers need a huge power overhaul. My argument was that since the server lacks harper scouts, rangers are the most spot prone role-played class on the server. Hence, anything that bolsters their spot seems to make a lot of roleplay sense, opposed to giving them some overpowered combat buff, increasing a spell like blade thirsts duration, and instead just giving them a few more circumstantial spell casting options. On the note of fighters, I would argue fighters are better than rangers if you have one weapon, rangers are better if you want to dual wield. Fighters get more feats, get weapon specialization, need to dump scores in to less ability scores, and have less obligation to dump skill points in to non combat benefiting skills, such as animal empathy., and keep the weapon-master track open. So no, I certainly don't think rangers need to be made significantly more powerful, however,to argue that rangers are inherently more powerful than fighters in martial combat I think is overlooking some important variables.

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2018, 11:56:55 AM »
Well, there was a bit of a talk before for putting in viable alternative spells for ranger, and I had a look through the source books and a few caught my eye.  Some were overpowered as hell so I won't mention them, but I'll put a couple down at least, as possible 3rd level spells.

I should preface this by saying that I think Blade Thirst should stay as it is.  Ranger has huge advantages in very high stealth, good skill choices, full BAB, HiPS, Bane Bow, and Hawks flight.  It should be mentioned in a previous mention that Paladin was pointed out to be overpowered, and it is very strong - but it has no detection, and on a server that has no auto defeats of stealth this is quite potent a difference.  A ranger does not suffer from this deficit, and has an absolutely excellent skill selection that the paladin simply does not.

Regardless, putting down the spells.

Detect Favored Enemy
Lvl 3, Ranger 3, Divination
Components - V, S, DF
Casting time - 1 action (over 3 rounds)
Range - long (400ft, maybe too much)
Saving throw - None
Spell resistance - None
Target - self

Allows the ranger to concentrate and sense the presence of their favored enemies. Fluff text aside it works exactly like the paladins 'detect evil (cough chaos)' ability, doing a three round concentration check to detect favoured enemies nearby, instead of an alignment, which is quite a potent detection tool, limited by numbers of casts.

Embrace the Wild
Level - Ranger 3, Druid 3 (though this may be just made Ranger, potentially?)
Components - V, F
Cating time - 1 action
Range - Personal
Target - self
Duration - 10 mins a level (recommended 1 hour+1 turn per level)

This spell allows the caster to take on some of the aspects and nature of a wild animal.  You retain your form, but gain the natural and extraordinary senses of a chosen creature.
This spell would function much like a 'protection vs alignment' or 'polymorph' spell, granting a bonus of a type in terms of feat and skill bonus depending on the creature chosen.  Some possible ideas included would be -
Eagle - Spot +5, Search +5
Cat - Darkvision, Move Silent +5
Bear - Antagonise +5, Discipline +5
Wolf - Listen +5, Discipline +5

There are other animals and the values may vary, as the spell description itself doesn't give specifics (rather weirdly) and leaves things rather nebulous in terms of values, simply saying the player gains all the ranks of the creature.


The next spells are from the Book of Exalted Deeds, and are somewhat overly goodly aligned.  They can however be retweaked to be a little less overbearingly goody goody.  The four particulars were a level 1 spell, Eyes of the Avoral, a level 2 spell, Silvered Weapon, a level 3 spell, Inspired Aim, and lastly, Spear of Valarian, a lvl 4 spell.

Eyes of the Avoral (suggested renaming, Eyes of the Farseeing)
Transmutation
Level - Ranger 1, Druid 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1 (suggest locking to ranger/druid)
Component - S
Casting time - 1 Standard action
Range - touch
Target - One creature
Duration - 10 minutes per level (suggest tweaking to shorter)
Saving through - will negates (harmless)
Spell resistance - yes (harmless)

A simple +8 bonus to spot, nothing more.


Silvered Weapon.
Transmutation
Level - Paladin 1, ranger 2 (suggest removing as paladin option, buffing as ranger option)
Components - V, S
Casting time - 1 standard action
Range - touch
Target - one weapon or projectile
Duration - 1 round/level (perhaps worth changing to be in line with bless weapon)
Saving throw - fort negates, object - harmless
Spell resistance - yes, object - harmless

This spell turns a weapon silvered weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.  My personal suggestion would be to bring this spell in line with bless weapon of a paladin, but make it for a ranger.  My suggestion would be to make it 1D6 divine or magical damage vs either shapechangers, or favored enemies, or magical beasts - or a combination of a pair of these.  Favored enemies would only work if it was a self cast spell, instead of another player.  If it was to be tweaked to be self cast, it'd make sense to make it favored enemies, but at that point it would be more viable as a lvl 2 or even a lvl 3 spell, due to the other bonuses that rangers get stacking on top.  This varies from the pen and paper, but then again a fair few of other spells do to.


Inspired Aim
Enchantment (Compulsion)
Level - Bard 4 (recommended against?) ranger 3
Components - V
Casting time - 1 standard action
Range - 40 ft (similar range to Sacred Haven, presumably)
Targets - Allies within 40ft of caster
Duration  - Concentration (recommend 1 hour +1 turn per level)
Saving through - Will negates (harmless)
Spell resistance - yes (harmless)

The spell inspires a +2 bonus on all ranged attacks made by everyone in the radius.  This would require having a ranged weapon equipped before casting, but it would probably also be useless with GMW.  My suggestion for a tweak is a flat +2 magic damage bonus to all of the rangers Favored enemies applied to all allies within range.  +2 isn't a great deal, but its flat damage, could be made a low chance of resist property, and it would be a large party buff as well.  Otherwise, a tweak of 1d4 would also work, perhaps moving the spell to lvl 4 range.

Spear of Valarian.
Transmutation
Level - Druid 5 (recommended locked out?), ranger 4
Components - V, S
Casting time - 1 Standard action
Range - Touch (Caster only?)
Target - One non magical weapon (suggest moving to any weapon)
Duration - 1 Round/level
Saving throw - for negates - object, harmless
Spell resistance - yes - object, harmless

Spear of Valarian, in the description, transforms a non magical weapon into a shimmering silver spear that acts as a +1 silvered bane weapon (magical beasts).  A suggested retweak of this would involve either a powerful bane effect on a melee weapon (excluding ranged deliberately) to create a stun effect or extra damage, or an effect similar to Mordenkainen's sword, creating a spear instead that defends and fights beside the caster.  To be fair, this one I was leery on, but I thought best to include anyway.


There were others I found.  One ridiculous spell gave a ranger +20 to hide and move silently as a lvl 3 spell.  I didn't include that one.  They don't need it.

Pav

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2018, 12:37:50 PM »
TLDR: If rangers are weak, why are so many players building them?

You'd think RP would be a factor on an RP server.

Otherwise, we are starting to lose focus on what this thread is about -- and that is an underwhelming duration on a spell. Whether or not it's deserved is a matter of the debate that we seemed to have left behind.
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noah25

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2018, 02:19:44 PM »
Honestly guys I think this debate is taking kind of a disproportionate size to the actual issue. It is still a spell, working as it's PnP variant, even with a longer duration, that grants a buffing bonus that can be useful. It can even be used jointly with an aid spell, and by a level 2 with the proper gear. Rangers hardly suffer from having it in their spell list, and to call it a quality of life issue is quite a stretch. The fact that the use of certain items or the presence of other buffers may limit its use, doesn't remove anything to the Ranger class. In that respect it is not worse than many other spells used only in specific circumstances.

Quality of ranger life would be better served by expending the list of spells. So instead of focusing on a spell that is not a problem, I invite you to suggest new rangers spells, from published d20 sources, that could be interesting.
This is where this discussion shifted, and frankly, in a way that seemed more productive to me. The vast majority seemed to agree that changing blade thirst wasn't the way to go. If used in the correct way, its already a potent spell, for a class that isn't built around its spell-casting ability. I think bringing it anywhere close to GMW or bless weapon in power would be a huge mistake.

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Re: Blade Thirst Duration
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2018, 04:54:10 PM »
This seems extremely overpowered to me, though I think insight and clairvoyance is a good idea. I've always thought rangers were the class who made the most sense to have insight.

How are those overpowered? You can pretty safely ignore the tables I copy/pasted, as NWN doesn't handle things like small, medium, and large for an individual weapon type, so no longswords one-handed by Halflings or a large bastard sword that has to be wielded two-handed.

Basically what the spell would be would be the ranger giving their arrows +1d6 or 1d8 piercing damage for the spell's duration. Since it would not stack with the damage bonus of steel arrows it would merely be an alternative for a ranger to save money or time on fletching.

As for Lead Blades, I recommend 1d8 as physical damage is more easily resisted than elemental damage thanks to xx/+x DR that most things have, and the fact that a lot of creatures resist one of the three physical damage types, if not two in the form of 1-5/- towards that type. It also would not stack with the bonus from steel smithed weapons. Finally, unless the spell was implemented with three variations, slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning, it runs into that first problem more easily, though variants would allow it to stack with steel weapon damage bonus which may be undesirable from a balance perspective..

These are low level spells that would give a ranger options at low levels but would be less useful later on.