Author Topic: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions  (Read 21308 times)

Better Dread than Dead

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 02:34:36 PM »
Maybe a simpler solution would be for player Monsters to not hunt in the Outskirts? Vampires and the Greater Sanctuary club are pretty much unbeatable but it's ok for them to be there but not someone who can challenge them?

Is it good rp for a high level good character to ignore the presence of monsters? To ignore calls for help? Is their rp less important?

[...]


If we are at all interested in having our server be authentic to the campaign setting that serves as its source, then no place should be safe at night, especially the Western Outskirts. It's easy for people to tell the AMPCs/MPCs that they shouldn't be doing things in the Outskirts, but imagine you're a vampire -- there are times where you struggle to find someone or a small group, separated from the rest of the server, out on their own. You waste most of the evening trying to one or two or maybe three people isolated from the rest of the server, and when you finally find this group, you have roughly twelve minutes to do your thing before dawn arrives.

It's quite easy to judge how an AMPC/MPC should be played, when you've never played one. Those who have been given the privilege have been tasked with reinforcing the server's atmosphere, and while people often think that the Western Outskirts ought to be an enclave of weird outlander stuff where what would normally apply to the rest of Barovia doesn't, it is not, nor should it ever be.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 02:39:21 PM by Better Dread than Dead »

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 02:41:50 PM »
Too true, Dread.
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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2018, 02:50:58 PM »
People go where people are. Having played played a bit on both sides of this particular coin. It's definitely not easy playing an (a)MPC or any other character with those kind of restrictions. It can be frustrating, from the brief experience I had on it. It is, unfortunately, just part of the role. I don't think that anyone really wants to say 'oh this is a bastion of safety, don't do anything here ever' but at the same time. It's important to realize antagonists don't get to live in a vacuum and go 'don't interact with me because your are a threat' either. People will react to what is going on.

The new 'looking for RP' system seems kind of cool. If people could use that to help coordinate, maybe that would alleviate the underlying issue that caused this change in the first place. It's no true fix. But it does seem like a step in the right direction.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2018, 03:34:05 PM »
People go where people are. Having played played a bit on both sides of this particular coin. It's definitely not easy playing an (a)MPC or any other character with those kind of restrictions. It can be frustrating, from the brief experience I had on it. It is, unfortunately, just part of the role. I don't think that anyone really wants to say 'oh this is a bastion of safety, don't do anything here ever' but at the same time. It's important to realize antagonists don't get to live in a vacuum and go 'don't interact with me because your are a threat' either. People will react to what is going on.

The new 'looking for RP' system seems kind of cool. If people could use that to help coordinate, maybe that would alleviate the underlying issue that caused this change in the first place. It's no true fix. But it does seem like a step in the right direction.

Sadly people never seem to use the function, every time i check LRP there is usually only 2-3 others flagged at most. :(

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2018, 04:19:02 PM »
Yeah, MPCs shouldn't be in the outskirts. Just like people should probably RP instead of red-deading things.

The outskirts are the IC LFRP place, a lot of people hang out there to RP. It'd be a great place to go and do something on. But peoples' trash attitudes towards antagonists are so bad  the DM team is actually told to avoid running things in the outskirts, and MPCs/AMPCs are advised to avoid it as well.

It's so bad, there are times when if a monster is in the outskirts one night, the following night there will be all sorts of high levels around camping if the MPC is still on the player list.

It's so bad, there's a bunch of people who don't even roleplay with the antagonist (both DMs and players!), and just go and red-dead them.

It's so bad, the pvp rules had to be re-written to let MPCs/AMPCs be covered by them better, people just cannot stop red-deading them.


And people keep giving all sorts of garbage excuses. "Oh my char has seen 1000 werewolves what makes this one different. My char isn't afraid of vampires. My char isn't afraid of things."
You know what? Player characters are the exception to the rule, that's the guideline with character creation and it also applies to villainous characters. Like I don't just walk up to priest characters and treat them like they're all Lizuca. I don't go up to the Vardo and get insulted when I can't unload vendor trash on them like I would with the Vistani. You can't just selectively pick what characters to not treat like NPCs. It's like the inverse of NPC ignoring.

And not only that, Harbinger wasn't monstrous at all, yet people did the same kind of no-RP attack-first thing to him too. So what's your excuses now? "My char selectively decides to murder priests of evil deities. Cyricists are on the death list. Banites are ok though, I'm not gonna kill them on sight."


All of this behaviour is why the level average RP XP gain system is there. The desire to see players spread out wouldn't be so high if there wasn't a problem with the players who clump in the outskirts. The issue is what they do to the game experience for low levels. DMs and AMPC players enjoy NCE for a reason, they can do their thing in a way so they can tell a story, they won't just be 1-shot by some jerk who thinks slaughter makes their character a good guy.


The real shoutout here goes to the high levels who are in Vallaki for the story. I've seen a lot of high levels around who engage MPCs or antagonists and RP with them, or who just engage with people in general and RP with them. People like Xanthus Creek, or Anya Rose. And Allek, he engaged antagonists pretty well-- Before becoming one himself! So huge props to these guys. Let's be the example we want to see.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 04:31:00 PM by Norture »

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2018, 04:56:53 PM »
It's so bad, the pvp rules had to be re-written to let MPCs/AMPCs be covered by them better, people just cannot stop red-deading them.

Could you elaborate on this or link to the current rules regarding MPCs/AMPCs and PVP?

I've searched, and a lot of PVP talk is not "official"--just discussion. Found this that's very specific to your comments, but it's from 2007:
Quote
On the topic of Monstrous pvp at the Outskirts

The issue of frequency of attacks at the outskirts is going to rely on constant mindfulness, and it is more subjective and outside of our individual control than some issues.  One may log in for an hour on a weeknight, and have no idea what pcs at the outskirts have already been through.  But for the sake of quality, it is important that attacks don't take place too often.  It is suggested, that players of monstrous characters do their best to stay informed and remain mindful of these concerns. 

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=5667.msg55563#msg55563

Back then, it sounds as though the "balance" might have been in the other direction!

Which reinforces why we all need to be mindful of how delicate balance can be. If playing an AMPC means a short, brutal existence before winding up as a notch on someone's sword, fewer and fewer players will want to go to the trouble of creating one. Which means more ganging up on those that are created. Which means shorter life.

Rinse, lather, repeat :P

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2018, 05:03:50 PM »
I guess the standing question would be: Is the restriction having the desired effect?

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2018, 05:11:17 PM »
It's not.
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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2018, 05:25:41 PM »
Quote
- In terms as having IC cause for engaging PvP, MPCs do not need their victim to have engaged themselves in the conflict or consented to it. Equally, IC identifying someone to be a MPC can be sufficient cause for engaging in PvP with them. The PvP should still be done in accordance with all the other aspects of the general PvP rules - roleplay the hostilities before resorting to basic combat.

I'm pretty sure it was this that was added. It used to be worded differently. Monsters could freely attack and could be freely attacked. Now says PvP requires RP, just like with regular characters.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2018, 05:35:37 PM »
It's not.

It actually is. We have stats on that we’ve been compiling for years. Average level in the outskirts has gone down since we implemented those changes.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2018, 05:36:39 PM »
Quote
- In terms as having IC cause for engaging PvP, MPCs do not need their victim to have engaged themselves in the conflict or consented to it. Equally, IC identifying someone to be a MPC can be sufficient cause for engaging in PvP with them. The PvP should still be done in accordance with all the other aspects of the general PvP rules - roleplay the hostilities before resorting to basic combat.

I'm pretty sure it was this that was added. It used to be worded differently. Monsters could freely attack and could be freely attacked. Now says PvP requires RP, just like with regular characters.

Yeah, essentially. We’ve issued warnings and bans in the past for such behavior, even fairly recently.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2018, 05:37:53 PM »
It actually is. We have stats on that we’ve been compiling for years. Average level in the outskirts has gone down since we implemented those changes.

By how much, if I can ask out of curiosity? :)
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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2018, 04:47:43 PM »
You know what I think would help, if there was actual risk to rolling a Wizard/Sorcerer, and a Druid or a Cleric. It's supposed to be dangerous in the setting to cast spells, but it isn't, how many characters can cast Protection from Evil, Invisibility, Flame Weapon, Blur, Fire Storm, or magic missile? A lot. Who keeps it a secret? Um probably not many. Buffing and hitting an AMPC is a lot easier if your a spell caster, and even healing magic is only tolerated in the setting. What about raising the dead? That should be some serious business, but it isn't really treated that way. If there where some serious repercussions for casting a bucket of magic to take down an AMPC or protagonist, then it might make things just a little easier on players playing that role.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2018, 05:29:13 PM »
There are already systems in place to address that. It's actually very sketchy to be caught doing magic by locals. Characters actually get ostracized in normal situations (It might even get THEM attacked or killed). That said we seem to be increasingly divergent from the original topic.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2018, 05:35:36 PM »
That said we seem to be increasingly divergent from the original topic.

True enough. And although I don't care about the throttle one way or the other, I don't think any arguments have been raised for getting rid of it that weren't raised when it was proposed (and in the 25 pages of subsequent discussion):

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=32289.0

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2018, 06:21:14 PM »

If we are at all interested in having our server be authentic to the campaign setting that serves as its source, then no place should be safe at night, especially the Western Outskirts. It's easy for people to tell the AMPCs/MPCs that they shouldn't be doing things in the Outskirts, but imagine you're a vampire -- there are times where you struggle to find someone or a small group, separated from the rest of the server, out on their own. You waste most of the evening trying to one or two or maybe three people isolated from the rest of the server, and when you finally find this group, you have roughly twelve minutes to do your thing before dawn arrives.

It's quite easy to judge how an AMPC/MPC should be played, when you've never played one. Those who have been given the privilege have been tasked with reinforcing the server's atmosphere, and while people often think that the Western Outskirts ought to be an enclave of weird outlander stuff where what would normally apply to the rest of Barovia doesn't, it is not, nor should it ever be.

Reinforcing the setting is one thing, telling players they cannot influence the setting is another. If you have a concentration of people in the area from the well, along the wall up to the transition and east as far as the transition to the Vistani camp what are we talking about? 100 square meters? Players have no right to fortify that area if they so choose and make it the one safe island in Barovia? I strongly disagree.

 I have watched monsters single handedly engage a dozens plus players many of whom exceed the lvl 12 range and leave with a field bodies. Vampires especially have almost no risk in these situations. The Harbinger and his crew were also not a band of lvl 8s, they well exceeded the level where you are getting xp penalties. So we should just make the Outskirts easy pickings for antagonists?

The very thing you describe your vampire going through, searching all over for victims, is the very same thing you want to subject lvl 12+ players to. Forcing them out of an area they know they can find rp.

I have had my character go all over the server, Port, Mist Camp, Barovia village and not been able to find anyone to interact with, this is not just a monster problem.

I understand it would be more ideal if the characters were not there and I have provided constructive suggestions on how to improve that. You must provide an alternative. Very few high level characters are in Vallaki because they want to bully low levels, most are there despite the inconvenience because it is the only place they are getting rp, access to plots and so on.

Monsters can go to dungeons, the sewers, follow the main road ways. They do not in my opinion have the right to dominate the outskirts, but of course they are welcome to try and on many nights they do.

The essence of your argument is your Monster's rp and contribution are more important than normal players are and I do not think that is valid. I know you are a great player and a fine antagonist and I know mpcs play a vital role in enhancing the setting. I might suggest to you that mpcs could by part of the solution by luring players away from the Vallaki.

My Paladin has extensive files on your Port Vampire as an example, has gone there several times to look into it. That lured her away from Barovia. The problem was there was nothing going on there when I got there. If we thought only low level monsters were haunting Vallaki then many of us would be happy to leave those problems to lower levels, but all Monsters pretty much are in Vallaki.

Obviously the Port is a solution. The staff need to make it a draw. It has been in the past and now it's not. High levels do not want to be in the Outskirts, it's very far from the dungeons they go to and they know they are cramping other players opportunity to shine, but it's better than nothing and better than being alone.
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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2018, 07:01:51 PM »
The key to generating alternate rp locations is more on the players then the DMs. The staff cannot be in all places at once, though a plot here and there does help.

Players, factions and especially player driven plots are the very lifeblood of the server. If a group begins being active in one place and creating plots and stories others can become involved in? That is where people will try to go and join the collective narrative.

Port's popularity as a hub location likely stems from the (relative) safety and the accessibility of public places to rp there while having plenty of rabbit holes and hideaways for people to get up to mischief. And while there are certainly groups that see DM support on occasion, much of the threads begin spun are player driven.

We are the ones capable of making these alternate places "a draw" for others.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2018, 07:04:45 PM »
There are already systems in place to address that. It's actually very sketchy to be caught doing magic by locals. Characters actually get ostracized in normal situations (It might even get THEM attacked or killed). That said we seem to be increasingly divergent from the original topic.

I know there is a system in place, but it's perfectly easy to completely circumvent it by moving through a transition where there are no NPC's, or move out of sight range of NPC's in the area. It's a minor effort to get around it, and then a character has utter free reign to do whatever they want magic wise, that aspect of the setting is completely missing. If these consequences that are supposed to exist actually happened, then it would be a small step toward helping with the heroe complex and the red stomping, because you know, standing up and taking a stance against evil would be risky for a large percentage of the player base.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2018, 07:31:48 PM »
I'm going to be brutally honest for a moment here.  I know the vampire in question who fought a group of people at once, and I fought them at level 13, and 14, and was able to beat them with support from one other, and the use of potions as a mundane class.  If a vampire is fighting a whole field of people and winning, and they're all within level range, that is purely because the player is better than them at doing it.  If you want to beat an AMPC, you need to get better at doing it, plain and simple.  You can do it with a roleplayed out death, you can do it with a mass jumping (but attacking a vampire like so in the outskirts when it will just mist and go back to its coffin is a magnificent folly) but you can beat them.  You can, with the right thinking and situational awareness, beat a PC many times your strength and power if you are smart about it.  An AMPC is no different.  And losing to them is *just* as much, if not far -far more- of a story progression event for your character.

tl:dr - If you are getting beaten by AMPC's, take it on the chin, roleplay the loss properly, and get better to beat them next time.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2018, 07:35:23 PM »
[...] standing up and taking a stance against evil would be risky for a large percentage of the player base.

But it already is? Any sort of PVP is risky. Not to mention some characters are actually PUT TO DEATH for being caught casting.

Are their people who abuse the mechanics of system? Yes.

Is it fair to punish an entire subset of players over it? Not really.

Asking for a few classes to be barred from doing exactly what they are supposed to do (assuming they are behaving in character and taking adequate precautions to be discreet about what they do) won't change the behavior of people who are already don't care about those things. I mean there are also significant incentives to NOT MURDER EVERY NPC IN TOWN. But that didn't stop the rare flippant individual from deciding to go on a killing spree 'because they mechanically could'.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2018, 07:35:40 PM »
The Harbinger and his crew were also not a band of lvl 8s, they well exceeded the level where you are getting xp penalties. So we should just make the Outskirts easy pickings for antagonists?


three levels off. :)

Coincidentally, the harbinger died to a max level.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 07:42:21 PM by booksarefun666 »

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2018, 07:38:00 PM »
The Harbinger and his crew were also not a band of lvl 8s, they well exceeded the level where you are getting xp penalties. So we should just make the Outskirts easy pickings for antagonists?


three levels off. :)

Yeah Harby and co. were no where near over the level cut off.  They were just better skilled than most, plain and simple.  Levels can make up for skill, but skill often wins out.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2018, 07:39:23 PM »
The Harbinger and his crew were also not a band of lvl 8s, they well exceeded the level where you are getting xp penalties. So we should just make the Outskirts easy pickings for antagonists?


three levels off. :)

Yeah Harby and co. were no where near over the level cut off.  They were just better skilled than most, plain and simple.  Levels can make up for skill, but skill often wins out.

This is an excellent point.

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2018, 07:55:24 PM »
Perhaps it would be better to avoid a discussion of specific PCs and specific IG events?

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Re: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2018, 08:15:15 PM »
You can compliment players. We're not giving specific events, Harby got into fights with a lot of people. I saw some of them, he'd be down to RP with anyone who would RP with him. But anyone who started to attack him, he'd attack back. Or gsanc if he was vastly outnumbered.