Author Topic: Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions (Read 21247 times)

Norture · « **Reply #50 on:** February 22, 2018, 09:37:35 PM »

Also, I want to talk about this:

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I understand it would be more ideal if the characters were not there and I have provided constructive suggestions on how to improve that. You must provide an alternative. Very few high level characters are in Vallaki because they want to bully low levels, most are there despite the inconvenience because it is the only place they are getting rp, access to plots and so on.

My main is a level 20 who is regularly in the outskirts. When I interact with antagonists, I try and RP with them. If there's a powerful vampire around, my character warns people and tells them to get indoors. You can be a high level in the outskirts and be responsible. That's why I took the time to name high levels I've seen interact with antagonists responsibly.

Sinful Mystic · « **Reply #51 on:** February 22, 2018, 10:20:10 PM »

To be fair, you can only do so much about Greater Sanctuary. That's a 6th level spell? Ok so they only had to be 11th level.

As for vampires....I'm not sure how much skill popping in and out of mist takes, and regenerating, and amped ac, and amped stats.. but to say their advantages all come from skill is a bit disingenuous.

Regardless, I am not the Champion of High Levels killing off MPC's. I do not have what you would consider a high level character, but I do have one that does not get rp xp inside the ML church which ironically encourages her to go outside.

My actual point is the focus should be on making the Port a true hub so that higher levels leave Vallaki naturally. As I have said there are a few easy ways to do this.

- Make the Port the main transit point rather than the Mist Camp

- Have some venues that are player run like a tavern or caf� and get the theatre into productive hands again

- have some inclusive events there

We can all play a role in it. Port based MPC's would draw heroes, maybe deliveries?

We saw Arawn turn Krofburg from a delivery stop into a Hub, eventually players got invested in the area and other DMs got involved. It is only common sense that this is done with the Port to resolve this issue.

I am willing to help. If a DM will let me work at a tavern or caf� I'd be happy to do what the Gaping Wound and Miner's Merriment guys are doing. Right now I do not see the same kind of opportunities there.

RedwizardD · « **Reply #52 on:** February 23, 2018, 12:07:45 AM »

Quote from: Sinful Mystic on February 22, 2018, 10:20:10 PM

As for vampires....I'm not sure how much skill popping in and out of mist takes, and regenerating, and amped ac, and amped stats.. but to say their advantages all come from skill is a bit disingenuous.

I think the intended meaning was there is a marked difference between a skilled player's vampire and one that might be less experienced or patient in the role in terms of holding ones own.

Tycat · « **Reply #53 on:** February 23, 2018, 01:54:54 AM »

Quote from: Norture on February 22, 2018, 09:37:35 PM

Also, I want to talk about this:
Quote
I understand it would be more ideal if the characters were not there and I have provided constructive suggestions on how to improve that. You must provide an alternative. Very few high level characters are in Vallaki because they want to bully low levels, most are there despite the inconvenience because it is the only place they are getting rp, access to plots and so on.

My main is a level 20 who is regularly in the outskirts. When I interact with antagonists, I try and RP with them. If there's a powerful vampire around, my character warns people and tells them to get indoors. You can be a high level in the outskirts and be responsible. That's why I took the time to name high levels I've seen interact with antagonists responsibly.

As a high level character in the outskirts, I can tell you that your role as a hero takes on a different level of responsibility to avoid the "red-deading", the "low level bullying", the "win button." It was about level 12 that I started seeing the reduced RP XP messages, and now it's No XP messages, unless there's a certain mix of levels in the area. There are areas that do give full xp for RP -in Vallaki- which means, that it is perfectly reasonable that I might be able to retreat there, and be readily available when called upon or to be rp'd with without neutering the settting.

Lexington as a level 16 Paladin, -is- a Hero of Vallaki. It's his home. He's laid roots of steel and it would be jarring or wrong to send him off. I have never been encouraged to leave either, or told I was breaking any rules by being there, but yes, I do suffer the reduced RP XP and have to search for places to make it beneficial for me. Like the Bell. or the Hospice. Or any number of places inside the city. When the vampires attack, I have actually struggled with ample reinforcement in battle, and on some occasions, I didn't at all. It's about being responsible as a high level and finding the places where you do still get full xp and where you should be, and how your role should compliment and lift the other heroes up, not win the day for them over and over again.

Iridni Ren · « **Reply #54 on:** February 23, 2018, 02:29:56 AM »

A couple of things....

First off, let's be clear about antagonists versus MPCs. Because an antagonist PC is still a PC, and I really think some of the discussion of the Harbinger is quite muddy when you don't distinguish the two. I'd prefer we stick to generalities anyway, especially about fairly recent events. Norture says that it's okay to compliment players and no specific IG was mentioned. However:

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the harbinger died to a max level.

That's a specific event. But more importantly, antagonist PCs are clearly protected by the same PvP rules as we all are. Events involving the Harbinger and an ally were in fact retconned because the Team decided the PVP rules had been violated.

Antagonist PCs don't have the worries about having to wait around to find victims, and then the sun comes up, etc. that Dread mentioned.

If you want to be an antagonist PC, you don't have to write an application either. You don't have a time limit on your PC's life. You can be very slow and methodical in your evil. Good PCs can become antagonists and vice versa.

My point is that the playing field is level between antagonist PCs and any other PC (or it should be). An antagonist PC is still simply a PC.

The reason I want to emphasize this point is not to say anything derogatory about antagonistic PCs, but rather the application part for AMPCs/MPCs. It is presumed that anyone approved to play a monstrous character has put thought into it and the Team has approved her application with the expectation she will enhance the server setting. So when we argue as to whose RP is more valuable, I'm more comfortable with the notion we should give a wee bit--just a wee bit--extra consideration to an AMPC/MPC than to a regular (antagonist) PC. The same way you wouldn't stomp all over a DM event, perhaps consider an AMPC/MPC sort of a "mini DM event"--or a DM event by proxy.

ASymphony · « **Reply #55 on:** February 23, 2018, 05:58:03 AM »

Quote from: Nemesis 24 on February 22, 2018, 07:38:00 PM

Quote from: booksarefun666 on February 22, 2018, 07:35:40 PM
Quote from: Better Dread than Dead on February 21, 2018, 02:34:36 PM
The Harbinger and his crew were also not a band of lvl 8s, they well exceeded the level where you are getting xp penalties. So we should just make the Outskirts easy pickings for antagonists?

three levels off.

Yeah Harby and co. were no where near over the level cut off. They were just better skilled than most, plain and simple. Levels can make up for skill, but skill often wins out.

Yes they were. I can't talk for all members but given the spell-levels hehad access to, no, Harby was a good few over the cutoff.

wildflame · « **Reply #56 on:** February 23, 2018, 01:24:01 PM »

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the harbinger died to a max level.

An MPC and two AMPCS of mine died to a max level in a low-level area, Iridni.

Iridni Ren · « **Reply #57 on:** February 23, 2018, 01:42:43 PM »

Quote from: wildflame on February 23, 2018, 01:24:01 PM

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the harbinger died to a max level.

An MPC and two AMPCS of mine died to a max level in a low-level area, Iridni.

I'm not sure how you want me to respond to that, but (aside from my not knowing any context of how your MPCs died and thus not being able to offer any informed reaction), I've actually been saying that (perhaps) high-level players should offer a tiny bit more consideration to MPCs and not just stomp them.

My previous post (and what you quote actually originated with booksarefun, not me) was only to clarify that antagonist PCs and MPCs are vastly different cases and should not be lumped together. Many of the arguments for cutting MPCs some slack simply don't apply to antagonist PCs. As a good character, I can't go mouth off or threaten a high-level evil PC and not expect consequences, regardless of whether the area happens to be one in which RP XP is dampened.

I can't attack the evil PC's allies and not expect a high-level evil PC to help them.

MPCs, however, one can make a distinct case for because of some reasons I outlined above.

Tycat · « **Reply #58 on:** February 23, 2018, 02:18:36 PM »

I feel like there were some good responses to the topic that are being ignored for this detailed red herring express.

Iridni Ren · « **Reply #59 on:** February 23, 2018, 02:47:36 PM »

The original suggestion was never going to make for a very tidy discussion.

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I understand that the Vallaki area is meant to be lower level, but the server simply doesn't have the population to actively support more domains outside of it. A majority of the roleplay seems to be in the Vallaki area, which makes it a bummer that the RP experience is throttled after a certain point.

The RP throttle exists (per Soren):

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to encourage higher levels to hang out away from low level zones.

Does it achieve the goal? Most players would say no, although EO says data shows some effect (possibly correlation without causation).

SinfulMystic offered some cogent thoughts about alternative ways to achieve the desired effect, and perhaps those ideas should be extracted to a separate thread: How do we make other areas of the server more desirable for high levels?

Spoiler: show

Because even if EO's data shows some change, it still takes only a few high levels in the Outskirts to make it an impenetrable stronghold of safety. Moreover, the behavior of 20th levels is not going to be affected at all by RP XP considerations.

Legion XXI · « **Reply #60 on:** February 23, 2018, 03:35:32 PM »

A certain amount of high levels will always congregate in the outskirts simply because it allows you to be tougher than most people around you. This is a thing in every game I've ever played. In shooters, people make new "smurf" accounts once they're experienced at the game to go back and bash on new players still learning so they can look like pros. On Ark and Rust, some fully kitted people don't use their gear and levels to explore the high-yield resource areas, they go to the starter areas and walk around shooting people, expending much more in resources than they actually gain from looting the dead. In Elite: Dangerous and other MMOs there's always the guys in the end-game ship or gear cruising around the starter areas to hear the "oohs" and "ahhs" of weaker players who haven't done the 1000 hour grind yet. Some people just like being a big fish in a small pond. Even if you literally gave them real life money to go elsewhere, they probably wouldn't, because then they don't get to be "super cool level 20 guy" and they have to instead go hang out somewhere that level 9 spells don't impress people. Or somewhere that they can't just KD spam anyone who calls them a doo doo head.

To me, it's a problem more specific to the players involved, not the "risk vs reward" or whatever else you want to throw out there. This is 100% a mindset issue with some players just wanting to be "Pope Cool Guy MD, attorney at law" 24/7 and they can't do that as easily when surrounded by people of similar level because they lack the tact/creativity/skill to actually stand out in an even playing field. These players aren't ever going to change because they do an amazing job of thinking they're not part of "that" group of players. They're probably reading this post right now going "yeah i hate those guys." Could be worth taking a good look at yourself and why you're in an area, and if you're high level, asking "Can I move this elsewhere, and would it add to the experience/atmosphere for lower level people who can't yet venture elsewhere safely?"

To the RP XP reduction, I never really felt like it majorly affected things one way or another. I also never based where I choose to RP on whether or not I get XP from it. I RP for the reward of the RP itself, I do dungeons when I want to get xp. As I stated before, I also don't think it affects the Dr Cool Guy crowd either because they'd probably be willing to LOSE xp just to be a high level in a low level area. In my opinion, the people it does affect is the "optimal" crowd. The people who play this game like it's a race to get to level 20 and base their decisions mostly around how they can get more xp, gold, and gear. For what it's worth, if the XP reduction really does only keep these guys away from the outskirts and new players, I'd probably be fine with that and call it "working as intended"

As for those suggestions, Port doesn't make sense for every character, which is why some people just don't go there. But there are plenty of "inclusive events" going on. As a matter of fact, there's an entire civil war happening and it's very easy to get involved. I walked there on a character I haven't played in like a year last week and already got involved in 2 separate events because I talked to people, offered services ICly, and didn't stand off to the side silently being a big [crosses arms]. I always see a lot of people complaining about not being able to get into stuff, but I also see a lot of PCs who never speak to anyone outside their very small circle of friends. I'm not a diviner, but I'd say those two things might be related. Also if you want to join the theatre or try to work at a cafe or something, you could always.... try to do that? People have done it in the past, it's entirely possible. I'm sure Arawn or one of the other DMs who are active in port would be glad to help you bring more RP to the area, but the thing is, you need to bring more to the table than "I want to hand drinks to people in the X inn." Make it an RP thing, have goals, make it "fun" for a DM to want to endorse and dedicate some time or effort to. The Miner's Merriment crew area a sterling example of how to turn a very simple concept into a living, breathing area that people WANT to go hang out at. Maybe get in touch with those guys for ooc pointers.

There is nothing stopping anyone from going out to higher level areas and doing things. People just don't want to put in the leg work. Starting things up is rough, it'll be slow at first. It takes driven and dedicated people to really make endure long enough to gather a regular following. Gavril Valentin stood at the "Plum" Bridge between Ionelus and Wachter territory for like 3 or 4 months doing checks, searches, and RP every day before the faction really started booming and he got company out there.

The point I'm trying to make here is that in my own opinion, I think it really has nothing to do with "not enough incentive" or "reduced XP" or whatever else was mentioned here. Some players just like being around weaker characters and lower level monsters. A lot of people don't want to put the effort into building something new, and there's a lot more "RP Infrastructure" in the lower level areas with more factions, merchants, and PCs congregating. I doubt adding the RP XP reduction really made that big of an impact outside of forcing a very select group elsewhere, but I also think that if it was removed, we'd see even more high levels directly in the outskirts since they don't have to go to the Wayfarer lodge or other high-average-level zones to get RP XP. That's the real issue here, is that it applies by area instead of larger zones. You can just go inside a building and the average level there is now much higher since all the new PCs running around didn't go in there.

Spoiler: show

Troukk · « **Reply #61 on:** February 23, 2018, 03:57:42 PM »

Maybe you guys are overthinking this.

There are usually 20-40 players online, that's not that many people. So people will try to be somewhere where they run into other people. That happens to be Vallaki.

If I wanted to play with NPCs, I wouldn't be playing this buggy 15 year old game.

RedwizardD · « **Reply #62 on:** February 23, 2018, 04:03:53 PM »

Thank you Legion for finding a better way of putting it.

Iridni Ren · « **Reply #63 on:** February 23, 2018, 04:17:26 PM »

Quote from: Legion XXI on February 23, 2018, 03:35:32 PM

I doubt adding the RP XP reduction really made that big of an impact outside of forcing a very select group elsewhere, but I also think that if it was removed, we'd see even more high levels directly in the outskirts since they don't have to go to the Wayfarer lodge or other high-average-level zones to get RP XP. That's the real issue here, is that it applies by area instead of larger zones. You can just go inside a building and the average level there is now much higher since all the new PCs running around didn't go in there.

I spend probably more than half of my time IG in the Lodge, and unless we have a called meeting, there are seldom more than a couple of Wayfarers around at any time. Actually, Iridni is almost as likely to receive non-Kin visitors while she's hanging around. We also don't have a Kinship "batlight" so that I've never witnessed (not once) a mass exit of a goggle-eyed, monster-stomping band of Kin from the Lodge in response to something in the Outskirts. (The RP in the Lodge is frankly more interesting and intense, and one reason Iridni hangs out there is for the privacy it affords.)

If the ML bell is rung or a garda horn is sounded, it's possible that a couple of Wayfarers will go investigate if they have nothing better to do. But we generally assume it's werewolves or wererats and they'll be dead by the time we get there.

To stay more closely on topic, the RP XP throttle has minimal effect on high levels RP--including my own--because (as you yourself said), if I want XP, I'm going to go dungeon. At 20th level RP XP is completely pointless, and without knowing precisely how it's calculated, I assume (and thus behave) that even at levels lower than that, you're not going to level very fast at some point if you rely only on RP XP.

Suggesting, therefore, that the throttle be expanded to larger and larger areas is going to have IMO a much more deleterious effect: that high levels dungeon more and RP less.

Which is not the basic premise of the server.

Eliah · « **Reply #64 on:** February 23, 2018, 05:02:38 PM »

If I as a player can't find where people are, know their relative strength to me, or what they are looking for atm - adventure, social, craft/idle, or story threads - I will have to remain in Vallaki with my net out waiting for spontaneous groups to form.

If the lfrp system allowed you to flag your interest and was opt-out rather than opt-in I'd at least have more info to decide where, how, and who to engage rather than blindly wandering between empty locales.

I'd still RP with any PC regardless of not gaining the xp, especially if there is a contrast between the character's development since hanging out with only those in your range gets as stagnant as being around significantly weaker PCs. Part of the appeal of different strengths is comparing them with others and watching as they change. If all you're adding to the experience is flexing your capabilities that is certainly shallow RP, but if you're acting in the background instead of taking the spotlight it shouldn't be too distracting for the lowbies. Gives lower levels something to aspire to, except when done poorly such as Legion mentioned.

Note that my server experience is limited to characters under 8th lvl.

A minor Glamour · « **Reply #65 on:** February 24, 2018, 07:47:32 AM »

Quote from: RedwizardD on February 22, 2018, 07:35:23 PM

Quote from: A minor Glamour on February 22, 2018, 07:04:45 PM
[...] standing up and taking a stance against evil would be risky for a large percentage of the player base.

But it already is? Any sort of PVP is risky. Not to mention some characters are actually PUT TO DEATH for being caught casting.

Are their people who abuse the mechanics of system? Yes.

Is it fair to punish an entire subset of players over it? Not really.

Asking for a few classes to be barred from doing exactly what they are supposed to do (assuming they are behaving in character and taking adequate precautions to be discreet about what they do) won't change the behavior of people who are already don't care about those things. I mean there are also significant incentives to NOT MURDER EVERY NPC IN TOWN. But that didn't stop the rare flippant individual from deciding to go on a killing spree 'because they mechanically could'.

Who's talking about punishing players, or barring PC's from using magic? It's about being true to the setting and roleplaying, that's all. Hold on, hold on, who got their characters put to death because they cast a spell? Did they get perma'd? I'm intrigued.

RedwizardD · « **Reply #66 on:** February 24, 2018, 09:24:41 AM »

Quote from: A minor Glamour on February 24, 2018, 07:47:32 AM

Quote from: RedwizardD on February 22, 2018, 07:35:23 PM
Quote from: A minor Glamour on February 22, 2018, 07:04:45 PM
[...] standing up and taking a stance against evil would be risky for a large percentage of the player base.

But it already is? Any sort of PVP is risky. Not to mention some characters are actually PUT TO DEATH for being caught casting.

Are their people who abuse the mechanics of system? Yes.

Is it fair to punish an entire subset of players over it? Not really.

Asking for a few classes to be barred from doing exactly what they are supposed to do (assuming they are behaving in character and taking adequate precautions to be discreet about what they do) won't change the behavior of people who are already don't care about those things. I mean there are also significant incentives to NOT MURDER EVERY NPC IN TOWN. But that didn't stop the rare flippant individual from deciding to go on a killing spree 'because they mechanically could'.

Who's talking about punishing players, or barring PC's from using magic? It's about being true to the setting and roleplaying, that's all. Hold on, hold on, who got their characters put to death because they cast a spell? Did they get perma'd? I'm intrigued.

It happens now and then. While it's been too long to go recalling many names. I know of multiple clerics and several mages subjected to such punishment.
And yes. One of my own characters was killed for being caught. It would have been permanent if other players didn't take initiative to step in and retrieve the remains.

Crimson Shuriken · « **Reply #67 on:** February 24, 2018, 02:30:30 PM »

I've never liked this change, I firmly believe that is has resolved one problem that affected few while it also created new broader problems that affect the intra-character dynamics of the server in far reaching ways.

Mayvind · « **Reply #68 on:** February 27, 2018, 06:32:38 PM »

Why don't we remove all chatty RP gain from the server. And just RP for FUN and not for XP and get XP through traditional way dungeoning ! See problem solve we all equal !!!

emptyanima · « **Reply #69 on:** February 27, 2018, 07:29:47 PM »

Because 'chatty RP gain' is the bread and butter of a lot of characters! Not every PoTM character is an adventurer, which is one of the bonuses of the RP XP system.

You can progress in other ways than killing mobs.

peps · « **Reply #70 on:** February 27, 2018, 07:57:06 PM »

Any possibility Port will be the main travel hub? I feel that will hugely alleviate problems.

Nemesis 24 · « **Reply #71 on:** February 27, 2018, 08:30:31 PM »

Not really. Making Port the main hub doesnt really give those with a high OCR, or various other difficulties involving it, from moving around much if at all. The MC is neutral ground and exists for a reason. Some of us have very limited ground to work with.

peps · « **Reply #72 on:** February 27, 2018, 09:38:07 PM »

Quote from: Nemesis 24 on February 27, 2018, 08:30:31 PM

Not really. Making Port the main hub doesnt really give those with a high OCR, or various other difficulties involving it, from moving around much if at all. The MC is neutral ground and exists for a reason. Some of us have very limited ground to work with.

The Mist Camp is neutral ground, yes, but if anyone's gone and screwed themselves to the point where the MC is almost the only place they can go then that should be on their character rather than on the everyone else's.

However, I should have specified when I said "Port" I meant a camp similar to the Vistani one near Vallaki. Inherently high OCR characters (like palemasters) would be fine in a relative sense. Admittedly, however, the issue you're bringing up (the non-OCR one) would still be an issue as the Vistani are bound by Dementlieu's laws; they won't snitch without purpose, but they won't harbor you if the man comes knocking.

Another point - permit people traveling from Tser's Pool to go to any of the domains; it offers incentive to make the Village of Barovia, a key lore point, a hub, also. People may travel from Tser's Pool and the suggested Dementlieu Vistani camp to any other domain; from the other domains they may travel to either Tser's Pool or Dementlieu. As far as the mist goes, leave the Mist Camp be, but leave it as a destination rather than a place to travel to other domains from.

Tycat · « **Reply #73 on:** February 28, 2018, 03:53:58 AM »

Quote from: peps on February 27, 2018, 09:38:07 PM

Quote from: Nemesis 24 on February 27, 2018, 08:30:31 PM
Not really. Making Port the main hub doesnt really give those with a high OCR, or various other difficulties involving it, from moving around much if at all. The MC is neutral ground and exists for a reason. Some of us have very limited ground to work with.

The Mist Camp is neutral ground, yes, but if anyone's gone and screwed themselves to the point where the MC is almost the only place they can go then that should be on their character rather than on the everyone else's.

However, I should have specified when I said "Port" I meant a camp similar to the Vistani one near Vallaki. Inherently high OCR characters (like palemasters) would be fine in a relative sense. Admittedly, however, the issue you're bringing up (the non-OCR one) would still be an issue as the Vistani are bound by Dementlieu's laws; they won't snitch without purpose, but they won't harbor you if the man comes knocking.

Another point - permit people traveling from Tser's Pool to go to any of the domains; it offers incentive to make the Village of Barovia, a key lore point, a hub, also. People may travel from Tser's Pool and the suggested Dementlieu Vistani camp to any other domain; from the other domains they may travel to either Tser's Pool or Dementlieu. As far as the mist goes, leave the Mist Camp be, but leave it as a destination rather than a place to travel to other domains from.

The mist camp may be neutral ground but you should never feel welcomed or comfortable staying there for a long period of time. They are friggin gypsies.

Exordium · « **Reply #74 on:** February 28, 2018, 05:50:10 AM »

Personally I find the Port a bit tough to hang at for majority of my characters. All my longer-lasting characters have been from FR, Barovia, Mordent, Sigil or Forlorn. I figure that only the Mordent character might not feel uncomfortable in the high technology and culture level of the Port, but even he might feel alienated due to the social differences. People of Mordent are usually somber, straight-forward, practical, withdrawn; The high class of Dementlieu is superficial, snobby, self-absorbed, pro-social.

Outside the Port, there's not enough content in Dementlieu to give a proper livelihood to a character.

Honestly, I think the Port might be even worse fit for the average outlander than Barovia. Barovians are not wholly ungrateful to their heroes, even if their reverence is often mixed with fear, xenophobia and mistrust. But fitting in to the Dementlieuse society is a real maze of etiquette.

With 20-60 players online at a time, there's not going to be more than ~2 hubs to sustain. Having the hubs as Mist Camp and Vallaki sounds fine to me.

Anyway, this would really deserve a topic of its own, so back on-topic; I see a lot fewer level 20s in the Outskirts now than say, 8 years ago. Of course showing correlation is always tough, but in my books, the system seems to work.