Author Topic: Suggestion for improving crafting  (Read 1198 times)

Iridni Ren

  • Priestess of Pelor
  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
  • When all other lights go out
Suggestion for improving crafting
« on: February 14, 2018, 09:47:15 AM »
Something that has come up repeatedly in the Perks for Closured PCs topic is a general sense that the current crafting system is tedious labor that few want to experience more than once. Likewise, both from personal experience and talking OOC to other players, I find it pretty unprofitable currently--perhaps because of all the recent nerfs to money but also (IMO) because of the tiny market for crafted goods.

Examples: One player told me that the current offered price for steel plated armor is less than the template to produce it. I ran into a PC trying to sell ordinary leather bags in the Outskirts and can't imagine anyone paying more than the template costs for those when containers are so easy to come by. Suspiria purchased Ebon tiger boots for 1 gold piece from the Vardo in the Mist Camp. Crafting stations are frequently left full of abandoned, crafted goods.

Crafters don't have the money they once had to offer others to gather raw components for them. On Suspiria I've started trying to do leatherwork, but it's a very difficult choice between selling the furs to Petre or spending money to buy tanning and beeswax and then watching all of it go poof at the crafting station.

So here's my suggestion: A table similar to the fur table be placed at the Tser Pool (although the location isn't that important). This table would allow the placing of crafted goods in it and pay for them at some price that is function of the PC's appraise and value of the good placed. It should approximate the value of the components in the crafted good, so the table wouldn't be a way to get rich, only a way that crafting wasn't actually a losing proposition.

The warehouse does buy crafted goods, but only in random fashion that makes doing so hardly worth fooling with. So my idea isn't totally new or radical, but one that would make hauling these items in more predictable. Immersion-wise, it could be presumed that from the Tser Pool the Vistani take them throughout the Core and resell them.

It would not dilute PCs into another hub because it could be located near the Vistani selling the elixir and either be added to his dialogue or one of the other many Vistani PCs there that mostly serve as decor.

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Arawn

  • CC, Developers, and
  • Dungeon Masters
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 7210
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2018, 10:22:36 AM »
Crafted goods are deliberately low-priced to make them rely on the player economy.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

Iridni Ren

  • Priestess of Pelor
  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2018, 10:24:15 AM »
The point is there isn't enough player economy to sustain them, especially all the practice goods one has to make.

That's why they're abandoned in the crafting stations.

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Iridni Ren

  • Priestess of Pelor
  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 10:37:14 AM »
One other thought: If PCs were hauling all their practice crafted gear to a central location like the Tser Pool, players actually in search of it would know to hang out there and offer more than whatever the "break-even or less" price the Vistani offered.

So it might actually help the player economy! :)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:39:00 AM by Iridni Ren »

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Stygian Messiah

  • AKA Kalashnikov33
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 10:39:24 AM »
Quote
So here's my suggestion: A table similar to the fur table be placed at the Tser Pool (although the location isn't that important). This table would allow the placing of crafted goods in it and pay for them at some price that is function of the PC's appraise and value of the good placed. It should approximate the value of the components in the crafted good, so the table wouldn't be a way to get rich, only a way that crafting wasn't actually a losing proposition.

The warehouse does buy crafted goods, but only in random fashion that makes doing so hardly worth fooling with. So my idea isn't totally new or radical, but one that would make hauling these items in more predictable. Immersion-wise, it could be presumed that from the Tser Pool the Vistani take them throughout the Core and resell them.

I think improving crafting is a great idea, but I think this idea does little to make the worst parts of crafting better and does more to make the virtual economy goofier. There's enough channels that add liquidity to the economy in excess amounts.

If we wanted to address a way to handle all of the excess low end crafted goods, I wouldn't mind seeing a dismantling system that gives a chance (how low or how high, idk or care) to salvage a portion of consumed materials used to make the finished good in question. It wouldn't make sense for every good ever made, but at least enough of them.



A war refugee sought the Master. He said, "You are wise and serene. Teach me to escape the horrors of this world." And the Master blinded him with fire-irons. - The Book of Cataclysm

Iridni Ren

  • Priestess of Pelor
  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2018, 11:09:04 AM »
I think improving crafting is a great idea, but I think this idea does little to make the worst parts of crafting better and does more to make the virtual economy goofier. There's enough channels that add liquidity to the economy in excess amounts.

If we wanted to address a way to handle all of the excess low end crafted goods, I wouldn't mind seeing a dismantling system that gives a chance (how low or how high, idk or care) to salvage a portion of consumed materials used to make the finished good in question. It wouldn't make sense for every good ever made, but at least enough of them.

1. What do you see as the worst parts of crafting? Because to my mind it's the early stages before you can make anything worthwhile and you just keep sinking money into a money pit. The gathering of raw materials is also a pain, and if a crafter wasn't already losing money on her goods, she could better afford to pay others to do this--trickle down economics :)

2. Whether enough chains to add liquidity exist or not is a completely distinct issue from this discussion because we're talking exclusively about improving crafting here. For example, if I can make 10 million gold on a dungeon run, then perhaps there's too much liquidity. But why should crafting be kept a chore because of that?

3. This is precisely "a dismantling system that salvages a portion of the consumed materials to make the finished good in question." The consumed material is the gold. The reason for having it be gold is that's much simpler to implement than the much more complex system you describe. It also prevents creating and dismantling over and over to get quick crafting XP.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:12:39 AM by Iridni Ren »

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Stygian Messiah

  • AKA Kalashnikov33
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 11:33:13 AM »
Quote
1. What do you see as the worst parts of crafting? Because to my mind it's the early stages before you can make anything worthwhile and you just keep sinking money into a money pit. The gathering of raw materials is also a pain, and if a crafter wasn't already losing money on her goods, she could better afford to pay others to do this--trickle down economics :)

Too grindy, when I'd rather be roleplaying. I've been here for years and have only taken up one crafting skill since - I usually choose to do without since everything else that comes with PotM takes up enough time as is. If it remained as is I'd be fine with it, but I'd be less likely to participate.

Quote
2. Whether enough chains to add liquidity exist or not is a completely distinct issue from this discussion because we're talking exclusively about crafting here

It's a distinct issue only if what you're describing exists in a vacuum - it doesn't. 

Quote
For example, if I can make 10 million gold on a dungeon run, then perhaps there's too much liquidity. But why should crafting be kept a chore because of that?

Can you make Ten Million gold on a dungeon run, or is this unrealistic exaggeration?

Quote
3. This is precisely "a dismantling system that salvages a portion of the consumed materials to make the finished good in question." The consumed material is the gold. The reason for having it be gold is that's much simpler to implement than the much more complex system you describe. It also prevents creating and dismantling over and over to get quick crafting XP.

Who's consuming gold in what you describe? NPC's don't spend gold since their supply is essentially limitless, rarely discriminating on what they'll spawn gold for when engaging in trade.  They spawn gold into your inventory.
A war refugee sought the Master. He said, "You are wise and serene. Teach me to escape the horrors of this world." And the Master blinded him with fire-irons. - The Book of Cataclysm

Iridni Ren

  • Priestess of Pelor
  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2018, 12:33:22 PM »
Too grindy, when I'd rather be roleplaying. I've been here for years and have only taken up one crafting skill since - I usually choose to do without since everything else that comes with PotM takes up enough time as is. If it remained as is I'd be fine with it, but I'd be less likely to participate.

Sorry, but it isn't very helpful to say "too grindy." I've offered specific examples and possible solutions to some aspects, which you said weren't the worst parts, but you decline to elaborate. Moreover, you say you've only once taken up crafting in (according your profile) 7 1/2 years of playing. I don't think you can be all that much "less likely to participate" as your participation is virtually nil :)

Quote
It's a distinct issue only if what you're describing exists in a vacuum - it doesn't.

On the contrary, improving crafting is very much a distinct issue from there being too much liquidity as crafting currently takes liquidity out of the economy only. If there is too much liquidity, it comes from other aspects of the game that, if anything, crafting is made more miserable to compensate for.

As an analogy, suppose a boat is leaking and one person is baling water out of the boat. The person baling the water says, "This is tedious and I'm tired. I think I'll quit unless you pay me better." Then your response would be, "Can't help you because the boat is full of water."

This topic is how to make water baling more enjoyable, not how to fix the leak or whether a leak exists.

Quote
Who's consuming gold in what you describe? NPC's don't spend gold since their supply is essentially limitless, rarely discriminating on what they'll spawn gold for when engaging in trade.  They spawn gold into your inventory.

The crafter spends gold on templates, potion bottles, resins, alchemical containers, etc. (as well as possibly purchasing reagents, herbs, and ores from other players). The gold is just the temporary store of value representing those materials. When she crafts, she consumes them, consuming the gold she used to purchase them. By being able to sell the good, she recoups the gold she invested and can then turn it back into raw materials for her next crafting attempt.

Gold is easier for developers to "recycle" than all the various separate materials the system you favor would involve (besides having other advantages, such as affording additional RP opportunities such as the trickle down I mentioned and not leading to mere repetition of the previous crafting attempt).
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 12:35:07 PM by Iridni Ren »

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Norture

  • Still noobin' it up.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3511
  • ???
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 12:57:34 PM »
People used to buy herbs for 20g, they're now paying significantly more. I just don't understand how they can afford to pay so much with the low demand for crafted goods.

Also, smithed goods used to sell for a whole lot more back when there was a larger barrier for entry into actually useful equipment. If you want to see steel sell for something, remove the charcoal vendor and make it so smiths need to get coal from the shadow dragon cave again.

Alternatively, assassinate Borval. Assume his role, set your own prices. Assassinate anyone who undercuts you.

Stygian Messiah

  • AKA Kalashnikov33
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 01:10:03 PM »
Quote
Sorry, but it isn't very helpful to say "too grindy." I've offered specific examples and possible solutions to some aspects, which you said weren't the worst parts, but you decline to elaborate. Moreover, you say you've only once taken up crafting in (according your profile) 7 1/2 years of playing. I don't think you can be all that much "less likely to participate" as your participation is virtually nil :)

Oh okay, I'll shut up then. I didn't offer any solutions. :)

Quote
On the contrary, improving crafting is very much a distinct issue from there being too much liquidity as crafting currently takes liquidity out of the economy only. It consumes player wealth. If there is too much liquidity, it comes from other aspects of the game that, if anything, crafting is made more miserable to compensate for.

Just kidding.

Improving crafting is a distinct issue, you won't find me disagreeing there. Making a new "gold spawn" creates an effect outside of the strict sphere of the crafting experience.

Quote
The crafter spends gold on templates, potion bottles, resins, alchemical containers, etc. (as well as possibly purchasing reagents, herbs, and ores from other players). The gold is just the temporary store of value representing those materials. When she crafts, she consumes them, consuming the gold she used to purchase them. By being able to sell the good, she recoups the gold she invested and can then turn it back into raw materials for her next crafting attempt.

Costs are part of production, anywhere. In crafting, you go through the beginning phases so you can recoup that cost later when you can make something worth selling - from Cure Minor Wounds to a Heal potion.


A war refugee sought the Master. He said, "You are wise and serene. Teach me to escape the horrors of this world." And the Master blinded him with fire-irons. - The Book of Cataclysm

CosmicRay

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
  • I can do no wrong, for I know not what it is.
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 01:11:28 PM »
There is demand for crafted items, but it suffers from peaks and troughs. A character only needs to buy a handful of crafted weapons and armor over their life.
This means that demand for these items is low, except immediately after a NCE.

Compare to crafting for consumables; potions, varnishes and arrows. There is a lively market for these items and they are always in demand.

One way to increase the attractiveness of smithing, leatherworking and woodworking (from the viewpoint of a player investing their time to grind it out) would be to make crafted weapons and armour wear out. This would effectively make all crafted items consumable, though on a much longer timescale than a stack of potions.
This would increase demand for crafted items and PC crafters. It would also potentially reinvigorate interest in weapon and armour loot drops - because these items would not wear out.

Stygian Messiah

  • AKA Kalashnikov33
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2018, 01:20:27 PM »
wear out

I didn't want to be the guy to get lynched, ty Cosmic.

Hiring carpenter to build gallows, pst!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:22:18 PM by Stygian Messiah »
A war refugee sought the Master. He said, "You are wise and serene. Teach me to escape the horrors of this world." And the Master blinded him with fire-irons. - The Book of Cataclysm

ViktorYouFool

  • The Underworld
  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2018, 02:41:11 PM »
I recently had a character embark on a mission to become a smith. After an incredible amount of time and money... I am now around a +45 modifier to the roll.

Everything I made until steel, I literally threw in the garbage because there was no point to it. Even steel items I sell basically at the cost of the template because the only people who want a basic steel armor or weapon are people who just made the character. Everyone else is going to want gilded weapons and armor with fancy leather backings. I know I've already blown 50k plus into my crafting expenses. If this character continues crafting, I'm sure he'll blow at least that much more again. Probably far more, given that I now also need to pick up gilding for 100gp per attempt and leatherworking to make items that someone would actually pay for.

I won't be doing this again on another character. There's a good chance I won't even continue progressing crafting on that character. The amount of time and money required to get into it is far, far in excess of what I'll ever make out of it at this point.

The only crafts that seem to give any real return on investment are alchemy and herbalism and for two very important reasons:
  • They create useful byproducts throughout your lifespan in those crafts. From the very first Cure Light Wounds potion you make, you have a usable product. Compare with smithing where no one is going to pay for anything below steel, and even steel weapons are basically only suitable for brand new characters.
  • They are a consumable with an ongoing market. Once someone has their armor, they have their armor. It's done.

Crafting any other item needs to either be drastically reduced in time/money to learn, or the products need to be useful throughout the lifespan of the craft.

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1772
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2018, 03:49:41 PM »
Alternatively, assassinate Borval. Assume his role, set your own prices. Assassinate anyone who undercuts you.

Yeah that dwarf's a menace. Ought to be stopped. But assassination that's so 772, I have it on good authority some shadow fey would like to make that particular smith as a changeling. I'm sure you could make lots of faerie gold helping it out.

I like the idea of removing the coaler. Will discuss it with my fellow dev. Players could make gold selling that to others.

As to the cost of becoming a master craftsman, I certainly have earned more than I spent on the long run and it was worth it. There is no need to change anything to the current system. And yet plate template prices is about to drop so it will be easier for you on that side.

I invite you all to find in game manners to drive the prices up if you think them to low now. Nothing prevents you from forming trade guilds or petition the burgomeister to do something about thise pesky outlanders stealing the bread of bun Barovians, etc.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 04:13:33 PM by MAB77 »
Best Regards!
MAB

Proud member of the Dev team, kindly working nights and days to bring you all more creative ways to slay all your PCs, faster and more efficiently!

Iridni Ren

  • Priestess of Pelor
  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2018, 04:05:16 PM »
I recently had a character embark on a mission to become a smith. After an incredible amount of time and money... I am now around a +45 modifier to the roll.

Everything I made until steel, I literally threw in the garbage because there was no point to it. Even steel items I sell basically at the cost of the template because the only people who want a basic steel armor or weapon are people who just made the character. Everyone else is going to want gilded weapons and armor with fancy leather backings. I know I've already blown 50k plus into my crafting expenses. If this character continues crafting, I'm sure he'll blow at least that much more again. Probably far more, given that I now also need to pick up gilding for 100gp per attempt and leatherworking to make items that someone would actually pay for.

I won't be doing this again on another character. There's a good chance I won't even continue progressing crafting on that character. The amount of time and money required to get into it is far, far in excess of what I'll ever make out of it at this point.

The only crafts that seem to give any real return on investment are alchemy and herbalism and for two very important reasons:
  • They create useful byproducts throughout your lifespan in those crafts. From the very first Cure Light Wounds potion you make, you have a usable product. Compare with smithing where no one is going to pay for anything below steel, and even steel weapons are basically only suitable for brand new characters.
  • They are a consumable with an ongoing market. Once someone has their armor, they have their armor. It's done.

Crafting any other item needs to either be drastically reduced in time/money to learn, or the products need to be useful throughout the lifespan of the craft.

I think your experience is pretty typical.

As for Borval, it's not surprising once he's gone through all that, he doesn't want to make it easy for a competitor to come along :P

That said, I created this topic in response to a *lot* of complaints about crafting and many arguing that crafting hell is why closured PCs should get perks. If the system is fine as is, then let's not hear any more arguments about how no one wants to contemplate starting over as a crafter.

Quote
There is no need to change anything to the current system.

Spoken like a true developer :D

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Legion XXI

  • Community Council
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1288
  • Revelation
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2018, 04:17:26 PM »
Spoken like a true developer :D

Except in his post he mentioned one suggestion made that the Devs will consider, and one that's already been passed and will be implimented.  Both of which might help this current situation.  I guess it goes to show you, you'll never do enough to please some people.  :D


As for me, I've tried smithing before but never managed to fully stick the grind out to make good steel stuff that people would buy.  It would make it a lot more viable for low levels to try to get in on if the bronze/iron/copper stuff could be sold for at least half or close to template price.  I understand the Dev decicion behind making all that stuff sell for 1gp to not be a money machine, but maybe 1gp is a bit excessive and it could be like... 10, or 50, or something like that.  Maybe just have it sell for the price of the base template to the warehouse or something?  With Herbalism and Alchemy, your investment is like 10 gold per bottle and you can make products that are useful to you at your level.  Anyone can do a delivery then craft a whole bag of Herbs.  With some of these other skills, you might do a delivery to try and make 1 full plate.  It's just not really smart or fun to try and take up at lower levels when you're still trying to just buy basic gear.  Not saying it's impossible.  Some people really enjoy the grind and will do it no matter how difficult it is.  But it just never feels like a good use of my PCs time unless I've already got a pile of extra cash sitting around to help get started.  Until you break the steel threshold, even the trash can would turn your products away if it had a choice.

Edit - As for affecting prices ICly, that's totally viable and could be cool.  And I can personally attest that Borval's demand far exceeds his supply, so there's room for someone else to step in and you could even charge more than he does.  I have had real trouble getting some of my lowbies fitted out with steel armor, or even Chitin, if you don't happen to be around when the like 2 merchants selling it are in the outskirts.  People might turn you down at first, but they'll come crawling back when they go 3 more weeks and still don't have a full plate.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 04:20:03 PM by Legion XXI »

aprogressivist

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4291
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2018, 05:50:21 PM »
People used to buy herbs for 20g, they're now paying significantly more. I just don't understand how they can afford to pay so much with the low demand for crafted goods.

Oh, that one's simple. If you're paying more for herbs, you're selling potions at a higher price. But then some herbs are obviously worth more than 20 (Purple Bolete being the most valuable herb in the low-level areas), whereas some are arguably worth less. (e.g. woundwart); and when my cleric was learning the craft, I was happy to pay over the regular value as an effort to get many herb collectors to come to me, so I could grind up the craft very fast. (It worked.)

Value of course is variable. In the herb/potion economy, there's a glut of herb supply in the low level areas and too little in the high level areas, simply because there's more low levels willing to collect in the low level areas. (I know MAB is planning to create more herbs to fill some of the recipe gaps in the high level areas, and while that'll make some change, it won't really change the footfall difference; there will always be more footfall in low level areas.)

Since there is a glut of herbs in low level areas, there's a glut of herbalists; consequently potions there are usually forced to be priced relatively cheap to be competitive. (Unless there's only one herbalist going around, which does sometimes happen.) Conversely in higher level areas, high level characters having more gold, they're willing to pay more for potions; and while there's just as many herbalists, there's fewer herbs being collected. Demand is high but supply is low, so prices go up.

So to come back to your comment, this means it's feasible to pay more for herbs in low level areas if your target market is the higher levels.

Some people might say this isn't a great deal for low level herbalists -- but it's a great deal for low level herb collectors, so...
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Iridni Ren

  • Priestess of Pelor
  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2018, 07:41:38 PM »
Quote
If you're paying more for herbs, you're selling potions at a higher price.

Perhaps for some, but I think it's often more complicated. Suspiria buys herbs for levels, not thinking at all about what she can sell the potions for--just as smiths do when they craft all the worthless junk they have to get through in their crafts.

She is carrying around almost 200 cure light wounds potions currently, and she leaves potions like remove paralysis in the cauldron.

She bought about 300 herbs a week or so ago for about 7,500g (25 each) with little back and forth. Who wants to keep toting around 30 lbs of herbs when you can make a quick sale?

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Tycat

  • The Vanguard Initiative Ambassador
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2605
  • The Tobasco Bandit
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2018, 08:30:53 PM »
wear out

I didn't want to be the guy to get lynched, ty Cosmic.

Hiring carpenter to build gallows, pst!

I actually like the idea that our gear should be maintained or lost. I find this to offer RP possibilities.

Some alternative and possibly lynchable suggestions are:

1. Make it so you cannot sell crafted gear to an NPC merchant. The reason for this is that ... let's be honest. You're getting 1 gp and they are turning around and selling your effort for 1 gp (sometimes 100 gp if it's armor or something.) Which means that people (i am guilty of this) go to Petre and look for these crafted stuff that were sold to him for a cheap start rather than seeking out the crafters and taking a few deliveries first to be able to afford it. This will help with the demand of seeking out the tradesman instead of shopping at Petre's discounted prices.

2. Remove plain boxes and bags from stores like the general store. This way player crafted bags have value, even if it's only 20-50 gold. Because we do buy those boxes and bags sometimes for things, why not make them accessible from players? It's one of the easiest things to craft in leatherworking so it shouldn't be too demanding.

3. Increase what Gabriel buys as stock to include copper and bronze weapons so that the grind isn't so unrewarding.

4. Wear and tear. If your armor needs repairs, you'll seek out a smith to do those repairs. Simple. Create's RP, creates jobs, creates value. Some metals and leathers should be hardier than others, possibly giving value to troll skin for example which should be pretty darn hardy.

5. (And I understand this is in the works) but adding new items to make crafted goods desirable over loot goods. Including new fabrics for tailoring, we'll get a lot more people willing to invest time and create an actual economy around crafted goods.

The market is completely economy driven. Back when I was a merchant I was able to research various sell values and supply/demand of some items and find a fair and adequate price. Sometimes I even went to the merchant that paid the best, find out what he'd pay me to vendor trash it, find out what he'd pay to sell it, and found a median so that I made profit and someone else got a deal that was worthy of coming to me rather than thumb through Djorji or Raoul. If we want to make crafting better, we have to find out how we can come together as a crafting community (<--guild? Rp opportunity?) and make for favorable change.

ChrisRanHimselfOver

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2018, 10:33:20 PM »
I'm sure some of the low-tier crafted equipment could be given a slight boost to their usefulness in order to start seeing a demand for them. Copper and bronze gear, for example, could possibly get a resistance to corrosion. It still wouldn't be as good as electrum-gilded steel, but it might serve for low levels and poorer characters who want to venture into places that they are normally afraid to risk their items in.

Plus, with items like this, a resistance instead of outright immunity would likely be fine as nobody would regard those items as particularly valuable. It's just the gear that you have in case you have to fight things that might corrode your stuff and they would be easily replaced.

aprogressivist

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4291
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2018, 11:05:30 PM »
Perhaps for some, but I think it's often more complicated.

Well, there are always abherrations, of course, but that's more because the herb economy is not a closed system (people using other sources of wealth to buy herbs to grind the craft and throwing or giving away the crafted potions isn't economic behaviour and thus can't be predicted) and because, even in the low level areas, there are often not sufficient numbers of herbalists to really have a true economy working. (Whenever you have a single herbalist in some place and time, they effectively have a small temporary local monopoly.)

When you do have enough herbalists, though, you do start to see economic behaviour taking place; e.g. people haggling over the price of herbs and potions.

Also really the main thrust of my point is that buying herbs at steep prices to sell herbs/potions to high levels at steep prices is economic behaviour.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:11:34 PM by aprogressivist »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Barris

  • The Cult of the Morninglord
  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2018, 11:46:00 PM »
I feel like a couple of reasons possibly accounting for the prominence of harbalism and alchemy vs. other crafts is being neglected, so here goes:

1.) Herbalism and alchemy are relatively simple crafts: Both of these crafts require very little investment. Herbalism materials ("mats") are found on the ground and anybody, regardless of level, can collect them, and alchemy mats drop from enemies you would be killing anyway. No special weapons are needed, you don't need to smash rocks or trees for hours on end. Herbalism is only one step - put the herbs in the pot and give it a whirl - and alchemy is only two. Further, the vendor components of the craft take up relatively little real estate in the player's inventory.

2.) The materials for herbalism and alchemy are **much** lighter than other crafts. The heaviest item you will need for herbalism is tree sap, and that's only 0.5 lbs. Everything else is so light that you can carry hundreds upon hundreds of herbs on any character you want and not worry about encumberance. While later alchemy supplies can become heavier, the beginner stuff is incredibly light - mandibles are 0.3 lbs and ectoplasm is weightless.

These two factors contribute to herbalism and alchemy having an extremely low barrier to entry. If you have the time and are willing to grind, you will progress in these trades much, much faster than any other. In fact, I would conjecture that barrier to entry accounts for differences between these two trades alone: herbalism asks much less of the player, and I would be that you will find many more herbalists than alchemists around because of it.

Also, neither of these trades is reliant on another for progression, for the most part, whereas investing in smithing, woodworking, etc. will have you dipping into multiple trades to continue.

(Edit: forgot to include my suggestion :P)

A solution I would propose would be to make craft EXP gained in failed attempts proportional to the total weight of the materials consumed in the process.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:48:11 PM by Barris »

HolyFlyingTarkusBatman

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 09:41:23 AM »
Speaking as a new player so this might be so much hot air, but in my limited experience with crafting (only herbalism so far) I'm rather surprised at just how many potion crafting (and crafting attempts) it took just to go from level 1 to 2. Now I'm fortunate in that the basic potions I can craft at least have a use, but I have definitely seen the large collection of meh crafted items dumped into stores from other professions.

I have two thoughts on this matter:

1) The 'simple' solution: shift the crafting 'leveling' curve a bit. Make it take less time and grind to get into the 'useful' mid levels of a craft while making it take even longer to progress from there to the 'master' ranks (or however they like to be referred to here). Ideally, the total time to go from noobie smith to Borval would be the same, but more of that time would be spent producing goods that are at least semi-valuable to people.

2) The more involved but perhaps more interesting and immersive soluition: provide a means to progress through low level crafting other than just repetitively grinding out the same largely useless items. This could take the form of NPC quests (ala Final Fantasy 14 and its crafting class quests) or, even better though more difficult to pull off, a master-apprentice system between characters where-in a new craftsman can observe and learn from a more experienced crafter (kinda like the automated RP experience drip but for Craft level instead of character). This could cut off after the first couple of levels at which point you'd be on your own but it would provide an additional(and hopefully RP rich) means of progressing, and would be a bit more interesting IMO than the old "here's a bunch of low level mats, go have fun" training approach. Now granted I have no idea how the specifics of this would work or how to avoid abuse from it but its something that came to mind reading this topic and I wanted to throw it out there.

Iridni Ren

  • Priestess of Pelor
  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1781
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 09:44:24 AM »
Also really the main thrust of my point is that buying herbs at steep prices to sell herbs/potions to high levels at steep prices is economic behaviour.

Yes, that would be normal, but as the first part of your post says, the economy of POTM is distorted in all sorts of fundamental ways. I would say "aberration" is the norm :)

For a few months we had a PC who was paying 60 fang for almost any herb. As I recall (all her old flyers have been removed, so I'm having to rely on memory), she would pay 300g for some herbs. She would then give potions away and even those she sold, she could not possibly have been making a profit at those prices. I was never sure of her motivation unless she just wanted to corner the market (?).  Or perhaps she enjoyed the RP that all this generated?

The single biggest factor determining price, I think, is the PCs involved and how much wealth each has, particularly the buyer. If you were holding an auction, for example, would you rather have 30 relatively new PCs attend, or two of the richest PCs on the server? I mean, look how much Medea paid for her troublesome silver :)

Likewise, the potion PC's player complained he could not obtain any adamantine even when offering 180,000 for an ingot.

These aberrations are the norm because the PC economy is so small, and different PCs having vastly different motivations. I doubt any of us--especially anyone who has played for any significant time--is primarily motivated by gold.

Quote
I would propose would be to make craft EXP gained in failed attempts proportional to the total weight of the materials consumed in the process.

At least a ghoul corpse would finally be worth carrying :P
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 09:52:39 AM by Iridni Ren »

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

peps

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2018, 10:10:57 AM »
Also really the main thrust of my point is that buying herbs at steep prices to sell herbs/potions to high levels at steep prices is economic behaviour.

Yes, that would be normal, but as the first part of your post says, the economy of POTM is distorted in all sorts of fundamental ways. I would say "aberration" is the norm :)

For a few months we had a PC who was paying 60 fang for almost any herb. As I recall (all her old flyers have been removed, so I'm having to rely on memory), she would pay 300g for some herbs. She would then give potions away and even those she sold, she could not possibly have been making a profit at those prices. I was never sure of her motivation unless she just wanted to corner the market (?).  Or perhaps she enjoyed the RP that all this generated?

Sadie Halloway, if it's who I think you're talking about. She did make a profit, and was ridiculously rich from both selling at high prices and cornering the market. I was her only reasonable competition at the time, because I only wanted to sell the potions she didn't.