Author Topic: Suggestion for improving crafting  (Read 7756 times)

Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2018, 02:20:53 PM »
Quote
I agree in completely axing any concept of being able to sell crafted items to NPC's and expecting a decent profit margin. It is, as Arawn said, undermines the player-driven economy.

Please don't ax the straw man :)

In my original proposal--and each time I've talked about it since--I've described it as not being profit-making at all, only reducing the loss on goods that no one in the "player-driven economy" buys.

Goods that are left to rust and rot currently in the crafting stations where they're created.

Many times players have suggested allowing the recycling of materials put into these goods, before now and again in this thread. Gold is easier for the developers to implement, and it is also something of a compromise because the crafter still must go out and get those raw materials again. She will just have more money to buy them from other PCs...which helps the player-driven economy.

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Tycat

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2018, 05:04:31 PM »
Quote
I agree in completely axing any concept of being able to sell crafted items to NPC's and expecting a decent profit margin. It is, as Arawn said, undermines the player-driven economy.

Please don't ax the straw man :)

In my original proposal--and each time I've talked about it since--I've described it as not being profit-making at all, only reducing the loss on goods that no one in the "player-driven economy" buys.

Goods that are left to rust and rot currently in the crafting stations where they're created.

Many times players have suggested allowing the recycling of materials put into these goods, before now and again in this thread. Gold is easier for the developers to implement, and it is also something of a compromise because the crafter still must go out and get those raw materials again. She will just have more money to buy them from other PCs...which helps the player-driven economy.

but the problem is, no one goes out and buys it for full price because you can pick it up from Petre for 1 gold after we get frustrated and sell it.
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Exordium

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2018, 09:53:05 AM »
It is, ultimately, desirable that characters must expend money in pursuing their goals. The goal can be adventuring, mastering a craft, or becoming the #1 socialite, but being forced to get money for it, is one driving factor behind generating interaction between characters.

For myself, personally, I've only managed to ever master herbalism on any of my characters. Herbalism - and to lesser degree, alchemy - are fine crafts in that they produce consumables that have a constant demand for them. It'd say it's much tougher to find people who'd sell you potions than it is to find a buyer for potions. At higher levels, when money is rarely something that players really need more of, there's a tendency for herbalists to stop producing for general use, opting instead to only produce for their IC friends. This is a bit problematic IMO, but I don't really know an elegant solution to it.

With smithing, leatherworking and woodworking, I've never managed to get very far with them. Honestly, I don't feel there's enough in return for your time spent. Grinding them up can be done relatively fast if you wait until you're high level, amass enough money for it, and then just spam-create those boots all day. But I'd like to combine the grind with RP and have the character start their craft early on, and it does make it very slow.

Another problem with those crafts in my books is that there's simply not that much demand. A single active smith can basically produce for the whole server. Characters only ever need to buy an armor once, and bar losing them, may only need to buy a weapon and shield once. One solution I've thought of was adding means for crafters to imbue temporary bonuses on crafted items by spending crafting ingredients. For example, a master-tier swordsmith might temporarily (say, for ~1 real world hour) give +1 slashing to a sword by using a steel ignot. Or a skilled leatherworker might give a temporary 1 damage resistance against piercing & slashing by waxing a leather armor up. That way being good in a craft that produces singular, non-consumable goods would still mean that your craft continues to be useful even when you've already produced the goods in question to everyone.

Lastly, I think the design where crafters need to rely on each other to produce the final good didn't end up working as intented. Instead of leatherworkers and smiths working together, you just have one character master both crafts. This was already mentioned in this thread and there were some suggestions about making this cooperation easier, but it's hard to find a solution that both worked with NWN, didn't feel like a crutch, generated RP, and also felt plausible. I'm not really sure if I have any ideas about a proper solution to it. One might be that the ability bonus requirements are reorganized and emphasized so that it becomes very difficult for a single character to be able to master woodworking, leatherworking and smithing. But this might feel a bit too penalizing to those craftsmen who have trouble connecting with other players, be it due to timezone or perhaps due to the outsider status of their character.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:56:53 AM by Exordium »

Troukk

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2018, 10:20:29 AM »
For example, a master-tier swordsmith might temporarily (say, for ~1 real world hour) give +1 slashing to a sword by using a steel ignot. Or a skilled leatherworker might give a temporary 1 damage resistance against piercing & slashing by waxing a leather armor up.

This sounds like an extremely good idea, however, 1 real life hour is what it takes sometimes to even find an adventuring group. If you make it permanent but the item loses it upon server reset, you'd probably hit a nice balance, where one would have to visit the local smithy every 2-3 days if one wants to keep the sword sharp.
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RedwizardD

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2018, 11:19:13 AM »
It would be cool if the smith/leatherwooder gains crafting exp for this kind of gear buff maintenance.

Exordium

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2018, 12:10:10 PM »
For example, a master-tier swordsmith might temporarily (say, for ~1 real world hour) give +1 slashing to a sword by using a steel ignot. Or a skilled leatherworker might give a temporary 1 damage resistance against piercing & slashing by waxing a leather armor up.

This sounds like an extremely good idea, however, 1 real life hour is what it takes sometimes to even find an adventuring group. If you make it permanent but the item loses it upon server reset, you'd probably hit a nice balance, where one would have to visit the local smithy every 2-3 days if one wants to keep the sword sharp.
How I was thinking it is that the craftperson can do it on the road, like before entering a dungeon, by using the tool items of their craft on the item they want to temporarily improve. 1 hour is roughly enough for a full dungeon run, if it's not one of the largest dungeons. This would make the craftperson useful to the party to have and it would give some more possibilities for non-casters.

But this is really just a fun idea, and nothing I've really talked or considered through.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 12:11:57 PM by Exordium »

Troukk

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2018, 02:59:29 PM »
It really depends on what you wish to promote as Devs.

If you want to give blacksmiths and leatherworkers a boon while dungeoning, then a limited time (like 1 real life hour) buff probably works best.

If you want to give blacksmiths and leatherworkers something they can reliably sell often (unlike weapon and armors that are a 1 time purchase), it's probably best if the buff lasts until server reset. That way it's a product they can sell in their shop, much like alchemists sell varnishes and herbalists sell potions. And the demand for them would be consistent over time.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2018, 03:08:28 PM »
I sort of prefer Exordium's implementation for this reason: Many crafters complain about being bothered by customers through Tells. This would seem to increase that aggravation. Other players would want a response RIGHT NOW!

Or a compromise idea: The crafter can turn a piece of raw material into a transportable buff that functions as Exordium suggests.

Such as in already IG items like polishing cloths and oils of sharpness.

Perhaps hardening wax for leather? I dunno....


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InMyDarkestHours

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2018, 05:28:34 PM »
In my experience, crafting isn't exactly the most mentally stimulating activity. The suggestions made to reduce the availability of coal will - in my opinion - make it more undesirable than it already is, and won't have the intended effect of improving the craft. Just more expensive in time. However I wouldn't mind to see a simple merchant price increase in coal.
 
The other suggestion to being able to forge consumables (such as sharpening stones or other items that provide temporary benefits) would be a better direction for improvement.

General wear+tear on items has been discussed before and I'm not sure how good of an idea that is.

RedwizardD

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Re: Suggestion for improving crafting
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2018, 06:02:13 PM »
In my experience, crafting isn't exactly the most mentally stimulating activity. The suggestions made to reduce the availability of coal will - in my opinion - make it more undesirable than it already is, and won't have the intended effect of improving the craft. Just more expensive in time. However I wouldn't mind to see a simple merchant price increase in coal.
 
The other suggestion to being able to forge consumables (such as sharpening stones or other items that provide temporary benefits) would be a better direction for improvement.

General wear+tear on items has been discussed before and I'm not sure how good of an idea that is.

Creating a consumable (in addition to being able to make crafted items) actually sounds like a phenomenal idea. It would provide a product smiths can add to the economy that would encourage repeat buyers.

What if, instead of just a +1 on a weapon or whatever there could be different types of whetstones/oils/fittings that can be applied like a varnish (possibly in addition to?) to alter the properties of a weapon temporarily? DR is a big deal after all. It would be kind of cool to have an effect to apply a temporary weapon gilding, or add blunt/slash/peicing to an odd weapon type on a short term basis? That might even influence the market for less popular tiers of crafts goods. (Say applying a temporary silver gilding to copper axe. Or adding slashing to a bow/arrows for dealing with zombies, or blunt a greatsword temporarily because you ran into a black pudding)