You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Lockpicks, why?  (Read 2284 times)

greeneggs

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 718
Lockpicks, why?
« on: February 08, 2018, 11:53:41 AM »
I'm discussing this because I want a few questions answered and a general discussion about the new lockpicks.  The first thing I want answered, is:

A) why was this mechanically implemented?

B) What was the roleplay aspect and purpose of implementing this into the system to where my character would need to break her stealth in order to  put a pin in a lock.

Was it so Rogues and rogue type people would join in groups more rather than going off on their own, and 'ninja looting'?  Everyone who knows me, knows that I play a rogue.
 This rogue that I play does rogue activities and yes, that means delving into dungeons and unlocking chests.  So in order to do her roguely activities she now has to break her stealth, purposefully to pull out her extremely long and extremely loud lockpick from her pocket to pick a lock. 

Is the same mindset as setting traps which also, I am told, breaks stealth and invisibility or is it more like a loud crowbar now?  The purpose of a rogue is to be quiet.  And my question to the general populace is why do I have MS and Hide if I can't properly use it when she needs it, being unlocking chests and doors, as that is what lockpicks are used for.  The general idea of a lockpick is to -be- quiet.  Which leads to my next question.

What roleplay sense would this serve?  All rogues try to be sneaky and it would be non-conducive to the roleplay in general for them to purposefully break their stealth so that they could open a lock.  It is what they do.  There is a way to roleplay this in the proper light if it comes to it. It is basically what every rogue signs up for when they begin their journey as a rogue.  The whole deal with a rogue is that they don't want to get caught.  A rogue that gets caught is a very bad rogue.  So with these new lockpicks, I and my character are not allowed to roll for hide and MS, not even given the chance to do such but rather the lockpick is now used as a 'mechanical' tool or an activation item.  After the stealth has been broken, the tool has been used to 'inspect' the lock to see if the door is locked, only then do we roll open lock.

When I walk up to a door it says <<target is not locked>> or otherwise.  Why would I need to break stealth to figure that out in a roleplay aspect?  So in essence, my character needs to purposefully break stealth in order to see if the door actually locked, stand up and jiggle the handle?  And then go about using the 'open lock' skill.  I have tested this out many times on a few doors and it simply makes no sense to me.  As well as how you can't roll a 20 on it so even if I use a '+3 lockpick on the door I have to roll a 17 to be higher that I would have gotten without a tool and that would be ONLY a 15% likelihood of that.' ((quote from Legion))  Was this an oversight?  And can we expect changes in the next hak?

So there is a solution to this, there is a skeleton key that you can buy from X for X amount of coin.  But 'keys' are louder than lockpicks.  Of which still brings up and is a concern of the above.

Let's face it, rogues have gotten much weaker since a few years ago.  This new aspect of the lockpick really takes away from a core of what the rogue is.  What the rogue does.  Many of the new dungeons have enemies that can see straight through stealth with true sight so there is a limited number that our characters can steal from.  I ask these questions really to anyone in general who might know more than I do about this.  Is it to steer more toward the new PRC, crypt dweller?

I would like thoughts on this.  And as usual, please stay on the topic which is lockpicks and their mechanical and roleplay uses for a rogue for better or worse.  Thanks guys.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 12:10:33 PM by greeneggs »

Norture

  • Still noobin' it up.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3516
  • ???
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 12:47:06 PM »
Wait, picking a lock now breaks stealth? As in, using the open lock skill on a locked chest/door will break stealth? Or, is it the use of the thieves tools item that breaks stealth?

Stygian Messiah

  • AKA Kalashnikov33
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 639
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2018, 12:49:54 PM »
Wait, picking a lock now breaks stealth? As in, using the open lock skill on a locked chest/door will break stealth? Or, is it the use of the thieves tools item that breaks stealth?

Same question, answer will frame my response.
A war refugee sought the Master. He said, "You are wise and serene. Teach me to escape the horrors of this world." And the Master blinded him with fire-irons. - The Book of Cataclysm

greeneggs

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 718
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2018, 12:55:58 PM »
Wait, picking a lock now breaks stealth? As in, using the open lock skill on a locked chest/door will break stealth? Or, is it the use of the thieves tools item that breaks stealth?

Using the 'thieves tool', now labeled lockpicks breaks stealth because it is considered an activation item.

Stygian Messiah

  • AKA Kalashnikov33
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 639
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2018, 12:58:36 PM »
Why was this change made?
A war refugee sought the Master. He said, "You are wise and serene. Teach me to escape the horrors of this world." And the Master blinded him with fire-irons. - The Book of Cataclysm

Dumas

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1237
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2018, 12:58:55 PM »
I hope it’s an oversight. Standard lockpicking without a lockpick doesn’t break stealth (only prompts a ms roll and such as usual), but using the new picks breaks you out of stealth entirely. That’s a death sentence for stealth characters.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:24:55 PM by Dumas »

swizzlesaurus

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2018, 01:15:54 PM »
Having actually died due to my use of lockpicks breaking stealth and this resulted in me not being able to play my character for an extended period of time I would love to know if this is working as intended or not. As a side note you no longer take 20 when using the new picks either. Makes them quite literally useless in most situations in my eyes.

peccavi

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • an hero
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2018, 01:20:24 PM »
So you're telling me that the dev team still isn't done breaking rogue? Nice.
Vengeance is in my heart, death in my hand --
Blood and revenge are hammering in my head.

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2018, 01:25:20 PM »
Ironically this was meant as a nerf on non-rogues.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2018, 01:31:39 PM »
As far as I know, this is not intended behavior. We'll look into it.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

Philos

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Lord
  • *
  • Posts: 889
  • Detruisez tous, c'est une obligation!
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2018, 04:04:42 PM »
They also don't take into account the take 20 afforded to opening locks. That kinda makes the higher tier picks more of a craps shoot than an actual bonus.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 04:07:02 PM by Philos »

Mailbox-2100

  • Heir of the
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 982
  • "Maudlyn" Argali Dupont, Lazula Zhuelke, and more
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2018, 05:09:28 PM »
hahaha, i was staring at my screen for a good minute yesterday after using a +3 thieves tool and failing a check i was guaranteed (before).
Spoiler: show
hehehe, I rolled a 17.

Jamila

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2018, 05:16:01 PM »
They also don't take into account the take 20 afforded to opening locks. That kinda makes the higher tier picks more of a craps shoot than an actual bonus.

The ironic (and crappy) part of this is that now all those +10 lockpicks you're carrying are likely just dead weight since the average roll while using them will net you a +0 "bonus"
 if you roll a 10 out of d20. You're best off tossing them out.

Lockpicks need to go back to default as NWN's playerbase becomes more and more sparse. Getting tired of only finding 1 or 2 other people near my level to do a dungeon with and leaving all the loot behind doors or in boxes because none of us happen to play the only guy capable fo opening anything... again.

Philos

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Lord
  • *
  • Posts: 889
  • Detruisez tous, c'est une obligation!
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2018, 05:47:54 PM »
I honestly think it was a great change. There's just been a few bugs in its implementation that I think will be fixed shortly. And to your other point, our player bases seems to be growing. I can't comment on other servers but when ever I log on there's usually upwards of 40 players on. 60 last night.

Yes, Dear

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2018, 02:26:11 AM »
I asked EO about this a while back, he said breaking stealth and not taking 20 are bugs and will be fixed.
Yes, sweet lemonade. Oh, sweet lemonade.

A minor Glamour

  • Guest
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2018, 05:03:52 AM »
UUUhh I thought sneaking past all the bad guys and stealing the loot was bad  :think:

Norture

  • Still noobin' it up.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3516
  • ???
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2018, 08:29:14 AM »
Nope, it's not against the rules. Dungeons reset after 15 minutes, and the looter can't reset it themself after that period. There are also a lot of areas that cannot be ninja looted due to enemies with unnerfed true seeing, and a conscious effort was made to increase the value of boss monsters in an area that a solo looter cannot kill. Ninja looting is less valuable than you think.

A minor Glamour

  • Guest
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 07:05:41 AM »
No I know it's not against the rules, I just thought the general consensus was that it's a cheap way to play the game. I wouldn't get any injoyment out of casting invisibility and doing the same thing, wouldn't it be more fun to kill the bad guys and then get the loot?

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Lockpicks, why?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 07:15:40 AM »
No I know it's not against the rules, I just thought the general consensus was that it's a cheap way to play the game. I wouldn't get any injoyment out of casting invisibility and doing the same thing, wouldn't it be more fun to kill the bad guys and then get the loot?

You'll find that's a very divisive opinion, and one that is in no way reflected in the rules.

That said, this should not turn into another ninjalooting thread--the original question has been answered, and this thread is drifting off-topic, so I think we'd better leave it here. If you want to discuss other aspects of stealth, start a new thread.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 07:18:33 AM by Arawn »
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.