Suggestion: create a ferry between the Krezk Outpost and Edrigan

[APorg]

So I understand this map is a bit inaccurate, but I've checked other maps, and so far least the river connection seems to pan out.



From Krezk, the Luna river goes through Borca and joins the Musarde in Richemulot, flows through Lake Kriegvogel in Falkovnia, and then flows through most of Eastern Dementlieu.

Therefore it might be feasible for a ferry starting at the Krezk Outpost (which already exists in game) to set out along this route and, with an extra ferry ride across the Jewelry Box lakes, end up in Edrigan (also already in game). I think this would have some distinct advantages:

 - It would give a travel route alternative to the teleporting Vistani, bringing a little diversity; it would also give the IC sense of such a trade route existing.

 - A lemma to this -- it would reinforce the feeling that Dementlieu is west of Barovia -- not east of it.

 - It would give some life to the Krezk Outpost and the Avenue du Progres in Dementlieu; both of these are meant to be major trade routes, but right now are more OOC dead-ends.

Now obviously there are some potential objections to this idea. It might make travel "too easy". Well, I don't think so;

 - You still have to travel to the Krezk Outpost or to Edrigan, which are kinda out of the way. I've not timed it but it's probably going to take you about as long if not longer to walk from Edrigan to the Port as it would from Midway Haven to the Tser Pool.

 - Since this is a ferry route, it would obviously close in winter, as the Vallaki lake ferry does.

 - To represent the long distance travel, it might only depart at certain times of the day -- perhaps you have to catch it after 7am and before 8am, or else have to wait another IG day for the next one to take you.

 - It might be quite expensive; after all, most ferries charge around 150 - 250 gold for relatively short distances. You might peg the price of this one at 800 fang or so, for a good gold sink. (By comparison it costs 450 gold to get to Dementlieu via ferry and two Vistani coaches.)

 - You might even charge more for "protection" through Falkovnian territory -- or for going around it if it would have to use a land route through Richemulot rather than go through Falkovnia.

 - You might have an extra long "wagon" transition, as per the Vistani wagons.

 -  Incidentally, the closing of this route by war (Falkovnian invasion or Dementlieuse civil unrest) might drive RP and a feeling of authenticity.

 - And just to repeat, as a final point: Edrigan and Krezk aren't meant to be isolated, like Krofburg.

In short, I think that if correctly implemeted, this idea would bring a bit more authenticity and meaning as way stations to those areas, which they ought to have but currently lack.

[APorg]

Oh, the price might be higher going down river (Krezk > Edrigan) than up river (Edrigan > Krezk); obviously the former requires less work...

[Pav]

agree, approve, please implement, thank

[Dumas]

I think it's a marvelous idea. Agree with all the points raised, Aprogressivist

[Iridni Ren]

I think it would be a nice addition to the game.

The only question I would have (and I don't have the knowledge of the geography to answer this) is whether it would require the ferry go upstream against any falls.

[APorg]

The only question I would have (and I don't have the knowledge of the geography to answer this) is whether it would require the ferry go upstream against any falls.

Well it's important here to keep in mind that this is basically an abstraction, just like the other ferries and Vistani travel are. Realistically it would be kind of absurd for a single non-stop ferry to go all the way from Krezk to Edrigan or vice versa; but a series of ferries would work, e.g. one starting from Krezk and then stopping at the river north of Lekavrest; and then another ferry continuing down to Richemulot, with horse-drawn caravan to bypass any falls, or for an overland route to avoid Falkovnia; etc. etc.

Of course we don't have areas to represent a Borca waypoint or a Richemulot waypoint (though it would be really cool if we did!) so the only thing we can really do in game is have the ferry take people from Krezk straight to Edrigan, with some flavour text then popping up to describe the numerous stops along the way...

[Iridni Ren]

I'm all for it in terms of adding some fun and variety to the game world When fast travel was talked about for Krofburg, I mentioned I'd really prefer something that "looped around" like this instead. Even though I'm raising questions, I hope this becomes a reality.

What about the Vistani elixir and Strahd's closing off of Barovia, including for NCE?

Mechanically, the devs can address those, but they are also things to consider.

(The reason I'm bringing these things up is when I've wished for something like this myself, I've also thought about objections I'd have to overcome.)

[Dumas]

They could just introduce periodic flooding near Krezk when NCE rolls around, and shut down the ferry/carriage route.  Just have NPCs claim that extreme flooding makes ferry travel dangerous... but that's just one of many possibilities.

[MAB77]

Edrigan, like Krofburg, is a remote area for very precise reasons and by design. I see little reasons to have such a link between a high and low level areas. Such requests have routinely been denied in the past, because plainly it makes no sense. Perhaps a couch ferry between Edrigan and Port-à-Lucine would be more logical, but again if even the link between Vallaki and Krofburg was deemed undesirable, I can't see any points in favor of that either.

Also, remember that you can always deal with the Vistani through DMs. I've seen players use the Vistani services to go anywhere in the module, but it's a case by case issue all driven by roleplay. If your need is great, the vistani will be there to take your coins.

[Iridni Ren]

Edrigan, like Krofburg, is a remote area for very precise reasons and by design. I see little reasons to have such a link between a high and low level areas. Such requests have routinely been denied in the past, because plainly it makes no sense. Perhaps a couch ferry between Edrigan and Port-à-Lucine would be more logical, but again if even the link between Vallaki and Krofburg was deemed undesirable, I can't see any points in favor of that either.

Also, remember that you can always deal with the Vistani through DMs. I've seen players use the Vistani services to go anywhere in the module, but it's a case by case issue all driven by roleplay. If your need is great, the vistani will be there to take your coins.

The argument that Edrigan is intentionally remote is reasonable, and I'm not familiar enough with it (I'm not certain I've even been there) to attempt to refute that. But why? Why go to the trouble of creating areas of the server that no one uses? The explanation for Krofburg I could completely understand because in game the geography represents that. Also, Arawn offered plot reasons for keeping it that way currently (with the possibility it might change in the future). From Arawn:

The isolation of Krofburg is part of the experience; it is supposed to force together those players who choose to be part of it. I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't appeal to some people, and that's fine, and, frankly, part of the point. People looking for a more casual experience can find it in Vallaki. There's nothing wrong with deciding it's not for you. But it is part of the concept of the Silver Spring plot, by design, and based on my experiences running a faction out of the Wachter Estate area....

The Team may someday decide to implement fast travel, and I cannot speak for them in this or any regard in which I am not specifically authorized to do so, though I will stick by the arguments I made above. That said, I think there is reasonably broad consensus among the Team that this is not something we want to pursue. Who knows, though, what the future will bring.

However, saying you "see no reason" and this "doesn't make sense" is to ignore everything aprogressivist said without actually addressing or refuting it.

[APorg]

Edrigan, like Krofburg, is a remote area for very precise reasons and by design.

Edrigan isn't a remote area, though. People might avoid stopping there because the village is creepy -- but it's right on the Avenue of Progres between the two major cities of the Domain.



There would be a huge amount of trade and traffic both ways down the Avenue of Progres between Port-a-Lucine and Chateaufaux. So if the ferry arrives outside Edrigan, on the avenue, where the river is, then nothing is compromised.

I see little reasons to have such a link between a high and low level areas.

Please re-read my post then and actually consider the points I've raised. This is not about having a link between a high and low area; this is about setting authenticity. What I've suggested is not in the vein of making travel easier.

Such requests have routinely been denied in the past, because plainly it makes no sense.

Honestly, dude, did you even read my post? I make the effort to draw up a map, make arguments abotu why this trade route would have IC authenticity and you counter with this?...

I understand that the Dev team is reluctant to make it too fast to travel around the server, but I raised several suggestions as to how you could slow that particular ferry down. It's not about speeding up travel. It's about the fact that the Avenue of Progres and Krezk are NOT remote and isolated, at least not in the sense of Krofburg.

[Norture]

The Krezk Outpost is very remote too, yet there's fast travel there.

I'd like to see an IC way to move between domains that doesn't require Vistani travel. I'd like to be able to play a native char who can 100% not like the Vistani and be able to avoid them. As it stands the only way to do that is harass a DM for a carriage ride if my character needs to move between countries.

[MAB77]

Alright, let's delve into more precise reasons for my objections.

I get it that traveling the Musarde up and down makes sense from a geographical point of view. If we actually had locations along the river in the module I would totally agree. I'd really love it to be honest. A stretch in verbrek with attacks from werewolves, a stop at Pont-à-Museau, etc. If an adventure could be made out of it, you'd get my full support.

It's not so much the locations involved that are at stake here, but some of our philosophies for the server.

1) We do not encourage fast travel.

We want to foster more roleplay and the time spent in transit between 2 locations is an excellent occasion to do just that. Memorable adventures were born from those lengthy walks. Whether or not you chose to use that time for RP is all up to you. It also gives time for DMs to prepare surprises along the roads should they so chose. A few fast travel options have been implemented here and there when we deemed it necessary, but they should not be the sole reasons to make certain locations more interesting. And this leads to...

2) We do not want to create a third player hanging Hub.

Our player base is too thin to support it. Any places that would offer such means of travel would possibly create such Hub. Of course you could argue that neither locations are near popular dungeons and that therefore it would not be used that often. But then the argument could be turned back as to why such a link would be required anyway if they  are not to be used often.

3) No quick travel between low and high level areas.

Spin it however you like that is still a quick link between low and high level areas, which we purposefully avoid. We want to keep high level characters out of Low level areas Barovia. That link would not quite accomplish that goal would it?

4) To answer Eridni regarding Edrigan itself, I assure you it has excellent reasons to be there, albeit I cannot divulge them without spoiling it all. But it is definitively rooted in cannon Ravenloft lore and been the point of focus of many a DM and player plots. That it may not be used often does not make it a useless location.

Am I against seeing more uses for those areas? Of course not, but not through that. I'd rather see new dungeons implented near each place instead.

[Norture]

Can we just scrap Vistani travel then and have a more IC form of travel available?



Edit: Rather than add new dungeons, I'd rather see all of the dungeons nobody ever goes to get rebalanced. The server has a LOT of dungeons that are rarely ever touched because the XP and loot are both terrible compared to the risk of the dungeon. We don't need more dungeons, especially if they're bad dungeons that add to the list of things nobody goes to.

[Arawn]

Just a point--we are working on other IC means to encourage player travel to these locations. The first step, as you've all seen, is more delivery quests, of which another thirty or so are forthcoming. Then we'll add local quests, crafting quests, and dungeons of appropriate level. Any other suggestions you all might have are welcome.

[APorg]

Thanks for the more nuanced reply.

1) I appreciate that fast travel is not encouraged, but as long the Western river ferry were a slower option than walking from Vallaki to the Tser Pool and taking two caravans to Port, it would not compete or worsen the fast travel picture.

2) This wouldn't be about creating a hub; it would be about reinforcing the IC authenticity of the setting. That's why some of us like the idea, even if it ends up being less practical than the Vistani caravan.

You ask:

But then the argument could be turned back as to why such a link would be required anyway if they  are not to be used often.

Because then my character can, ICy, say, "Oh, there is a way to travel West, go along the Western ferry. It's more expensive and slower than the Vistani, mind."

That is my goal: purely to have this link existing, even if it's priced and implemented in such a way as to discourage its use, gives the setting a bit more authenticity, a reminder that not all travel is done by Vistani, even if the Vistani are still the fastest and cheapest option.

And hell, I'm sure some of us would take it just to avoid having to see the bloody Svalich Pass again, even if it is more expensive and slower...

3) It is already the case that high levels will travel back to Barovia. If Vistani caravan remains the cheaper and faster option, adding the Western ferry wouldn't change anything on that front.

[Iridni Ren]

I agree with the authenticity argument (which is why I asked about whether it required going upstream against any waterfalls).

I've always assumed that some of the "deader," in-between spaces on the server are to increase the sense of authenticity, even at the cost of making PCs trudge through places where nothing at all much is. Sometimes, however, they reinforce the sense of artificiality instead because PCs can enter and exit only from very specific points and the areas wind up feeling very linear (i.e., no travel possible in two of the four directions).

This aprog added as a minor afterthought, but (as someone who doesn't have the sense of the Core that many of you do) I find compelling:

A lemma to this -- it would reinforce the feeling that Dementlieu is west of Barovia -- not east of it.

I currently think of Port as way East of Vallaki.

Frankly, I don't know how much I'd take advantage of this if it was put in place. But if it's not too difficult to do, I think it would help immersion and just basically be "neat."

[ASymphony]

2) We do not want to create a third player hanging Hub.

Our player base is too thin to support it. Any places that would offer such means of travel would possibly create such Hub. Of course you could argue that neither locations are near popular dungeons and that therefore it would not be used that often. But then the argument could be turned back as to why such a link would be required anyway if they  are not to be used often.

I disagree on the basis that we do not actually have an active second hub. The dev-team may have deemed Port and MC as one, but it quite frankly has not worked out in my opinion. Port and MC are largely deserted throughout most hours of any given day, as I learned throughout the last weeks. As such I highly doubt Edrigan will become another hub. As to why it should be implemented, I belive aprog explained it rather well already.

[ladylena]

I would so love to see alternative means of transport between domains. It could risk even not ending up where you want to. It could make the server more authentic feeling and encourage native view that the vistani should not be trusted. If it was implemented so that non-vistani travel carried risks, being perhaps cheaper, but requiring the chance of getting lost and ending up in another location.

Even perhaps simply adding text to suggest the trade route of the river up to Edrigan could be help to encourage the view of where Dementlieu is

[Phantasia]

I've always found Vistani travel very odd, like a suspension of disbelief. Not that they wouldn't take an Outlander's coin to drive them through the Mists, but I always thought this was a more infrequent thing than what the server makes it out to be.

An alternative suggestion I thought, for a while, was something like this:

At the edge of the Barovian borders, you could have an over land carriage service that takes you to the north, south, east, and west. One carriage service in/around Krezk that goes to Dementlieu and the rest of the northern Core. One near or beyond the VoB that goes to Hazlan and whatever other domains reside in the east in the future. Then south at the soon (hopefully) to be Zeidenburg. Then you still keep the Vistani travel for the more obscure locations like the Amber Wastes.

Of course, this would encourage travel and make Vallaki more of a true "center." Though there is the matter of inaccessibility and time strains to consider, and the addition of more areas/expansion of Barovia. I imagine it would not take much more areas beyond the VoB, and Zeidenburg, to facilitate something like this.

[Dumas]

That would a great idea too, Sword. If you have carriage routes at these far reaches of the Barovian server areas that head to other domains, you will still be having a lot of player walking time from Vallaki to reach these fast travel destinations. In a sense, I think they don't really exist as Fast Travel, at that point, because you still had to foot it across half of the server areas to reach them. It'd feel far more natural.

And yeah, I've always gotten the sense that Vistani aided travel is a rare thing.. more of a place in Ravenloft books and PnP adventures. Still keep the Mist Camp and its travel destinations, but overland travel options from the edges of the Barovian sever areas certainly would seem like a natural and better flowing idea. You'd see far more players active in places like Krezk, and VoB, if this were an option.

[Blight]

How about an alternative to the Vistani we create an elaborate mistway system that represents the danger of the mists and connects all the domains together? Like a big maze.

I think that would be an excellent system.

[EO]

How about an alternative to the Vistani we create an elaborate mistway system that represents the danger of the mists and connects all the domains together? Like a big maze.

I think that would be an excellent system.

We already have that.

[Darkside of Heaven]

I think people have gotten to comfy with fast travel systems, Enjoy the adventure.

Also the Ferryman goes around Barovia and there are a few mist blockades between krezek and edrigan, having a vistani run a ferry boat isnt really their thing, Dont think ive ever heard of boat gypsy's.
 

[BraveSirRobin]

I think people have gotten to comfy with fast travel systems, Enjoy the adventure.

Also the Ferryman goes around Barovia and there are a few mist blockades between krezek and edrigan, having a vistani run a ferry boat isnt really their thing, Dont think ive ever heard of boat gypsy's.

The issue doesn't really become that people aren't enjoying the adventure. The first time out might be an adventure, sure. But some people want to be able to navigate two of the RP hubs within a reasonable amount of time. What people are often doing is pairing potions of cowardice with longstrider items and just trying to move from Hub A, to Hub B as fast as they can anyways. During the day, the trip is trivial regardless from Vallaki to Dementlieu, and at night when the adventure would be had the ferries would be closed.

I do, however, believe that we should add an interior to the boats and have them work similar to Vistani Vardos. For short voyages, do it in Vardo time. Or for long ones, like from say, Vallaki to Krezk, to Edrigan, make it a longer period, like 10-14 minutes. This allows people to actively nurture RP inside of the vessel instead of hastily trying to type and run, or walk at a pace that makes the entire trip agonizingly long. Majority of my trips from Vallaki to Port are with speed buffs and listening to music.