Author Topic: Half-Orc Stats  (Read 2120 times)

ViktorYouFool

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Half-Orc Stats
« on: December 20, 2017, 07:34:07 PM »
This is a subject that has annoyed me for a long time --- Why are half-orcs mechanically so terrible compared to the other racial choices?

Dwarves get +2 Con, -2 Cha. +2 on search checks underground, darkvision, +2 vs poisons, +2 vs all spells, +1 to hit orcs, +1 against goblinoids, +4 AC vs giants, +2 to the lore skill in general, and Ravenloft gives them Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven War Axe.

Elves get +2 Dex, -2 Con. Immunity to sleep spells. +2 on saving throws vs mind-affecting spells. Bonus proficiencies with swords and bows. Skill bonuses to listen, search, and spot. Passive active searching and low-light vision.

Gnomes get +2 Con, -2 Strength. +2 against mind-spells, +1 to hit vs reptillian humanoids and goblinoids, +4AC vs giants, +2 to the listen and concentration skills, Spell Focus: Illusion as a free feat, low-light vision, and then Small Stature which gives them +1 to attack rolls, +1 to AC, +4 size bonus to stealth and detection at the cost ofbeing unable to use tower shields and large weapons.

Half-elves get Elf-lite abilities: immunity to sleep, +2 vs mind affecting spells, +1 to listen, search, and spot, and low light vision.

Halflings get the perfect storm of rogue abilities: +2 dex, -2 strength, +2 move silently, +2 listen, +1 to all saving throws (essentially, LoH for free), +2 against fear, +1 with throwing weapons, and then all of the aforementioned Small stature bonuses that gnomes get.

Humans, of course, get a free feat and 23 extra skill points, which is arguably better than nearly anything above..

But then half-orcs? +2 str at the cost of -2int AND -2cha, making them the only race whose ability scores are a net loss. And their only other bonus? Darkvision. Add to that, the module makes being a half-orc or caliban hardmode with the OCR system.

Do half-orcs need to suck that much worse than everyone else? +2 strength really isn't even that much of a benefit on the whole, as nearly any stat spread you can make for a strength-built character would have better stats all around with a human or dwarf.

(Edited to append..) Given how many fighter/combat feats require Dex, it's hard to argue +2 strength is more broken than +2 dex that other races can get without going into a net-loss of attribute points.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 07:38:57 PM by ViktorYouFool »



DM Brimstone

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Re: Half-Orc Stats
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2017, 07:45:18 PM »
The racial stats are taken directly from 3.5 edition D&D.

ViktorYouFool

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Re: Half-Orc Stats
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2017, 07:48:28 PM »
I'm not arguing that it isn't the default. The server makes a bunch of improvements, though. This is a thing that could be tweaked if one had the will to do so.



Ruxandra

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Re: Half-Orc Stats
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2017, 10:56:04 PM »
Fix all D&D by using Pathfinder instead.  :D

Ability Score Racial Traits: Half-orc characters gain a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
Type: Half-orcs are Humanoid creatures with both the human and orc subtypes.
Size: Half-orcs are Medium creatures and thus have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base Speed: Half-orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Half-orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Half-orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, and Goblin. See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Intimidating: Half-orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks due to their fearsome nature.
Offense Racial Traits
Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
Senses Racial Traits
Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Other Racial Traits
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.

Pathfinder is more about making things balanced and worthwhile, I find. Wish NWN used it instead of 3.0. *sighs wistfully*
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 10:58:21 PM by Ruxandra »
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ViktorYouFool

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Re: Half-Orc Stats
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 11:02:37 PM »
Fix all D&D by using Pathfinder instead.  :D

Ability Score Racial Traits: Half-orc characters gain a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
Type: Half-orcs are Humanoid creatures with both the human and orc subtypes.
Size: Half-orcs are Medium creatures and thus have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base Speed: Half-orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Half-orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Half-orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, and Goblin. See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Intimidating: Half-orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks due to their fearsome nature.
Offense Racial Traits
Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
Senses Racial Traits
Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Other Racial Traits
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.

Pathfinder is more about making things balanced and worthwhile, I find. Wish NWN used it instead of 3.0. *sighs wistfully*

Given the nature of the setting/server, I think that if we really wanted to try and balance things out, the most fair thing you could do is give Caliban the choice of having -2int OR -2cha, but not both. Or, alternatively, give them +2con or something to balance out their stat-line. I'd prefer the former, rather than the latter, and it would be simple enough just to give them a stat bump the way subraces work.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Menancing Demeanor feat just be added to half-orcs for free, either, as on this server the race is entirely defined by "people think they are spooky/dangerous/whatever." Either that, or just a racial skill affinity in line with all of the other racial skill affinities everyone else gets.




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Re: Half-Orc Stats
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 02:13:23 AM »
I really don't see a problem with with the stats, it is by the book.. .

INT, and CHA are out the window - for sure. . I mean, it is wishful thinking to be able to keep one of those. I could see an argument for taking the STR buff and allocating that into other areas. . .but you're not going to be pretty .

What I would suggest is don't let those negative ability scores deter you flat out from taking a class that relies on them. I think there are a few examples out there of people who have taken these negatives and turned them into overwhelming positives in game. Not to diminish your suggested buffs, because I am sure they would be welcome and turn more people on to making them - but playing outcasts has its price and all of this is part of that.


tdlr; It's balanced already.

ViktorYouFool

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Re: Half-Orc Stats
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 02:57:14 AM »
tdlr; It's balanced already.
Respectfully, balanced against what? In what way? They are the only race that has a net negative attribute spread and every other race gets a ton of additional benefits on top of a net 0 attribute spread.



Iridni Ren

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Re: Half-Orc Stats
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 03:04:22 AM »
Quote
the most fair thing you could do is give [a Half Orc] the choice of having -2int OR -2cha, but not both

Or give them -1 to each.

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Ilu Asu

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Re: Half-Orc Stats
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 04:48:46 AM »
tdlr; It's balanced already.
Respectfully, balanced against what? In what way? They are the only race that has a net negative attribute spread and every other race gets a ton of additional benefits on top of a net 0 attribute spread.

I mean yeah sure, I definitely get your argument and curiosity.  I'm just attributing this to lore & setting - there are a lot more playable races in the module that offer a great deal of variety based on setting.  . and a large amount of them depending on builds can be quite powerful and skewed.

Basically (and we are speaking in the realm of opinion here) Think of them, as a race - of having +2 STR, -2 CHA. The caveat being that their -2INT is a byproduct of their low charisma (or vis versa, the two are somewhat married, is what I am getting at). Now, I would definitely agree with some stats being changed to a certain degree. I am currently playing a character that would benefit greatly from the changes - but then we are getting into semantics.  CALIBAN vs other Half-Orcs from FR or what have you. . .there could be some degree of racial disparity..

I guess I am biased to leaving it untouched - because it is not fair. That is what makes the race appealing!  If you choose this race, the odds are inherently against you.

Edit: And what I meant by balanced already, is that if you consider things from an RP perspective - such as how this race integrates with languages, cultural perceptions, and stigma..I think their base stats reflect that accordingly. Also, the STR bonus is nothing to scoff at. This is all just my two cents  :twisted:
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 04:56:49 AM by HM01 »

MAB77

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Re: Half-Orc Stats
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 06:22:14 AM »
You have indeed to look beyond the stats. It is D&D, a game well known for its imbalances on various aspects. We do try to adjust some of the more fundamental ones, but this is not one of them. In their current stats we emulate Calibans and Half-Orcs as close as possible to the P&P Ravenloft setting. Not all races are equals and that too is quite alright. If these penalties were so overwhelming as to make the race unplayable we would have acted of course. As it stands we have had our fair share of great Caliban sorcerers, bards and wizards and trust we'll see more of them too in the future. Sure it is a bit more challenging, you will not have these maxed out stats for Int or Cha classes, but will just be 1 point behind. Still viable and extremely fun to play. In the end it is not the stats that make a great character.
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