Author Topic: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)  (Read 20687 times)

MAB77

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2018, 07:28:31 AM »
The requirement for Armor Skin seems reasonable to me. Sure it requires a small investment in CON, meaning you'd have to sacrifice other useful feats. But that is balance and precisely the point. We want warriors made of all sort of builts, we don't encourage the one unique built that has it all.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2018, 07:37:32 AM »
The requirement for Armor Skin seems reasonable to me. Sure it requires a small investment in CON, meaning you'd have to sacrifice other useful feats. But that is balance and precisely the point. We want warriors made of all sort of builts, we don't encourage the one unique built that has it all.

It favours Dwarf-style builds, mildly penalises Human Fighters and more heavily penalises Elf fighters. I don't understand how you reconcile that with diversity? Indeed if it encourage Elves to put points into CON so they end up looking built like Dwarf Fighters, I would argue the opposite effect is achieved.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 07:45:00 AM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2018, 07:54:00 AM »
Unless you mean that Armor Skin is meant to be some sort of CON orientated counter-balance to Shield Parry (with Dex 15). Which I find un-intuitive, since Shield Parry is not a Fighter-only Feat. I think that's an implicit realisation that Shield Parry is a bit too strong, but OK, let's not retread that ground.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 08:15:18 AM by aprogressivist »
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MAB77

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2018, 08:24:11 AM »
Armor Skin is not a response to any other feature. Take it for what is is, a new option for pure fighters. If dwarves seem favored it is only due to their natural hardiness, just as elves are favored where agility feats are concerned, whereas humans have the advantage of an extra skill point per level and of an extra feat. Each has advantages and disadvantages it would be counter productive to Ievel that. A predisposition to certain trait is not an obligation to follow stereotypes. I understand elves are less likely to take that feat but that is not in itself a problem.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2018, 08:36:37 AM »
MAB, did you read my initial post? Or just my response to booksarefun666? :/

Surely ALL Fighters need a bit of help. This Feat ought to help ALL pure Fighters equally, not Dwarf Fighters in particular. Heck, the original requirement for Armor Skin has no CON requirement, just needs a character to be of epic level. The CON requirement was added on because presumably EO felt that that merely putting it on offer for Fighter 17+ characters was too easy. It's an arbitrary choice, and I'm pointing out the consequences. That's why I suggested replacing the CON requirement with extra Feat requirements instead.

Again: are Dwarf Fighers in a weak place versus Human or Elf Fighters? I mean, I was already planning on making a Dwarf Fighter here so I'm not arguing for my own sake, but that CON requirement just validates my race choice. It's not actually going to cost me anything in particular to take Armor Skin, as a Dwarf Fighter; I was planning on taking CON 16 anyway.

It's a no-brainer choice for Dwarves and a hurdle for Elves, when I believe it ought to be a boon for Fighters across all races. That's the issue.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 08:39:16 AM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2018, 08:49:10 AM »
You could make the same argument for any stat-gated feat. Overwhelming Critical requires 19 Str so gnome fighters are penalized, those Charisma feats are mostly unavailable to half orc fighters, dwarves will likely be unable to get Shield Parry, etc. We could remove all gates and make feats available for all without any requirements; it would please everyone but that’s not how we chose to do it.

As a character, I want you to have to make choices, that by going down a certain path you close off others. Clearly that’s not your philosophy and that’s fine but you can’t argue that your way is definitely the only right one.

MAB77

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2018, 09:15:52 AM »
To add to what EO said, we never make choices arbitrarily. This is an Epic feat. The original requirement is level 21+. It was decided only after careful considerations to lower that to 17+ ftr only and tie it to the concept of higher AC through hardiness in accord with the philosophy stated by EO.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2018, 09:22:07 AM »
You could make the same argument for any stat-gated feat. Overwhelming Critical requires 19 Str so gnome fighters are penalized, those Charisma feats are mostly unavailable to half orc fighters, dwarves will likely be unable to get Shield Parry, etc. We could remove all gates and make feats available for all without any requirements; it would please everyone but that’s not how we chose to do it.

You realise those are hardly comparable, right? Strength is fundamental in combat so anybody choosing to play a halfling or gnome fighter knows what they're getting into; and besides, most Fighters want to put their extra Attribute points into Strength. All the Charisma Feats are nice, but hardly universally required. I can happily play a CHA dump Fighter and not suffer. As for Shield Parry, that's hardly without its own debates, is it?

But every Fighter wants AC. Armor Skin was suggested for the purpose of generally bettering a class everyone agrees is weak -- the pure Fighter. I don't understand how one can look at what's on offer now and not think that Elf Fighters are getting the short end of the stick -- unless one happens to believe that Shield Parry is strong enough to compensate for that, but MAB explicitly stated that Armor Skin isn't a response to Shield Parry, so I'm confused...

Quote
As a character, I want you to have to make choices, that by going down a certain path you close off others. Clearly that’s not your philosophy and that’s fine but you can’t argue that your way is definitely the only right one.

Hey, I'm all for creating design trees, but I think the Dev team's overall concept of balance is not fully coherent and not fully explored. One consequence of the current choice is that it disfavours Elf sword-and-board Fighters. Why? Surely this is not supposed to be an exotic sub-par choice, like Gnome Fighters or Half-Orc Bards. Frankly it feels like you guys are creating suboptimal branches without realising it.

But hey, I'm done arguing against my selfish self-interest and I'll just be glad my Dwarf Fighter is gonna be awesome.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 09:46:12 AM by aprogressivist »
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Troukk

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2018, 03:24:30 PM »
Noob question here:

Natural AC doesn't stack anyway, does it?

So a fighter buffed by a wizard/druid without this feat has no disadvantages against a fighter with this feat, after both fighters are buffed?
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2018, 03:42:01 PM »
The "natural" AC granted by Armor Skin does not in fact fall under the "Natural Armor" category, much like Dragon Disciple's AC boosts don't.
A Dwarven Defender's AC boost, however, does. And a dwarf taking this prestige class may never have Armor Skin,
despite being perhaps the most easily qualified for it.

Troukk

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2018, 03:49:24 PM »
Wow then this skill is pretty damn cool. Makes pure fighters a viable thing.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2018, 08:17:33 PM »
Stat-gated feats are fine but not when they are hidden behind such an obscene number. Fighters, unless dwarves or gnomes, will most commonly not be invested in 16 CON.

Just my two cents. I'm easily throwing my lot in with aprog in this.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2018, 08:48:39 PM »
It's only 15, not 16, right?

Is that truly "obscene"? It's pretty easy for a human fighter to get 15 Con by level 17 with even an 18 Str, without completely sabotaging your other stats.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2018, 11:07:53 PM »
Just to lay out some numbers: let's say I'm committed to playing a full plate + tower shield Fighter. STR 16, DEX 12, CON 15.

As a Dwarf, to reach CON 15 costs 5 Attribute points at creation. You can end up with STR 21 at max level.

As a Human, to reach CON 15 costs 8 Attribute points or creation. Or; you can spend 6 Attribute points for CON 15 at the opportunity cost of having STR 20 at max level. A small, but significant, uptick in cost.

As an Elf, to reach CON 15 costs 13 Attribute points; but I get 2 back from DEX, so the net is 11 Attribute points. Or; you can spend 6 Attribute points for CON 12 at the opportunity cost of having STR 18 at max level. Or some combination. But here the difference in cost is clearly evident.

You can look at the above discrepancy and justify it in two different ways.
 - You can ignore all other Feats, as was MAB's initial argument, and take the Feat as given. If you don't like it, don't play Elf Fighters.
 - You adopt a holistic perspective and look at all other Feats in some Ability-gated strategic choice tree, as was EO's argument; in which case the existence of a feat like Armor Skin for CON is balanced by some choice like Shield Parry for DEX, or so on. Which means that playing an Elf Fighter who doesn't go for Shield Parry becomes a suboptimal strategy.

You have to admit that it's a pretty strange artefact of design where the full plate/tower shield Elf Fighter is relegated to a suboptimal "fun" build like Half-Orc Bards or Gnome STR Fighters.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:15:41 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2018, 12:21:53 AM »
Welp, suboptimal maybe, but playable. My justification would be Elves are a low Con race, so any feat that requires high Con is going to be harder for them--just as anything that favors high Dex is going to be easier. It's not so much that Elves shouldn't play a fighter, as that as fighters or any class they (as a race) will tend not to be based on having damage-absorbing bodies but relying on their quickness and coordination. How many 18 Str Elf fighters with Elven dexterity and armor skin should there be running around? :) Dwarves' favored class, in contrast, is Fighter.

If wanting to build for this feat as an Elf, I would definitely not buy the Con at creation. Start with 12 and take three of the four points at 4, 8, 12, and 16 to get there by 17th.

Anyway, I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other. I just found Pav's description of a 15 requirement as obscene a bit of hyperbole :)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 12:23:46 AM by Iridni Ren »

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #90 on: January 18, 2018, 06:41:07 AM »
Anyway, I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other. I just found Pav's description of a 15 requirement as obscene a bit of hyperbole :)

As aprog explained, it is not in fact a hyperbole in the cases I myself ascribed, e.g. not a gnome or a dwarf. Having an odd constitution score for a single feat, is, also, shooting yourself in the foot in the term of ability point investment.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2018, 07:33:31 AM »
There is nothing wrong with a 15 CON score. A simple endurance spell or potion at the opportun time can get you up to 20 and make up for that slight difference with a score of 16. More HP , higher fortitude, it is always good reasons for a high CON regardless of feats. It might not be your preference in a built , but a shot in the foot? Hell no.

What I'd like to see though are even more CON based feats. So if you have suggestions, from official D20 sources, do provide them and we'll assess if they would be a good fit for the module.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2018, 08:25:56 AM »
I agree that using 1 ability score to get 2 solid AC that stacks is pretty damn sweet.

That said, con buffs are just a deathwish in PoTM with the way our bleeding system currently works.

I for one avoid them like the plague.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2018, 09:00:47 AM »
As aprog explained, it is not in fact a hyperbole in the cases I myself ascribed, e.g. not a gnome or a dwarf. Having an odd constitution score for a single feat, is, also, shooting yourself in the foot in the term of ability point investment.

When I've experimented around, it seems difficult not to either overpay for a stat or wind up at level 20 without an odd stat. A PC begins with 78 points and gets 5 points along the road, or 83 total.

Getting 2 AC for that odd stat is, as Troukk says, sweet :)

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2018, 09:22:50 PM »
-Added Axiomatic Strike.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2018, 09:36:38 PM »
That said, con buffs are just a deathwish in PoTM with the way our bleeding system currently works.

I for one avoid them like the plague.

Echoing this. I used to drink Endurance potions, thinking they were the bee's knees til I'd fall, then go straight to death when they ran out a minute later. Now I actually tell my buffers never to buff my con. Ravenloft has ruined Endurance utterly.

No real idea why every spell duration has to be nerfed. Changing scale does nothing other than changing frequency, which means you've really not changed anything at all other than making people rest and recast more often. Great if you... want to annoy... your... players? I ...guess?

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2018, 09:58:52 PM »
Or maybe it cuts down on how many people are able to just walk around full stat/AC/true seeing/spell resistance buffed 24/7.  Makes it more of an investment instead of just doing it once when you log in and being good for the whole next day/night cycle.

This forces people to actually think about what buffs they cast and when, or put actual effort into being someone that stays buffed all the time.  Not being able to easily have all your wards up all the time sort of adds to the "something might happen to me" feeling that's supposed to be present.  It also lends to tactics and RP, especially outside of dungeons.  I know that as a player of an assassin, I'd try to watch players and get an idea for what their buff patterns were.  If you saw someone outside at hour 6, and they were still there at hour 18 and hadn't gone off to buff, they probably are either only walking around with the long duration buffs or they don't buff up at all.  Or if they do, you see them walk off to rebuff at certain hours and it helps establish a pattern of behavior to hit them at their weakest.

Also, it means that if you're going to cross-class a caster class for buffs, you have to consider durations.  It actually rewards pure caster classes because the buffs last longer, but if you're just dipping into a caster class the buffs will be short term.

And it's not "every spell duration" that was shortened.  As a matter of fact, all of the rounds/level spells got buffed significantly by becoming 1 turn + rounds/level.  That's huge for things like haste, tensers, divine power, ect.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2018, 10:05:39 PM »
The spell buff duration thing is pretty relative, to me, at least. It might also be to others. I for one, welcome the consideration for longer hastes and other spells that have immense tactical utility, but piss poor duration in the past.

Be it short or long buffs, you will find a way to play around it I think. If you don't, and are too entrenched in your old preferences, then... oh well!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:08:01 PM by Sword »
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2018, 10:12:00 PM »
And indeed the typical duration for the minute/level buffs, e.g. Bull's, is 1 hour + 1 turn/level, in an effort to slant them away from benefiting high levels disproportionately.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2018, 10:40:42 PM »
Is there any chance we could make many people's dreams come true and add quarter staff to the list of weapons useable in Unorthodox Flurry?
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