Author Topic: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)  (Read 20680 times)

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2017, 06:38:26 PM »
There's nothing saying you have you use a finesseable weapon in order to gain the benefits of these new feats, rather that you just have taken weapon finesse. 18 str/14 dex builds are pretty viable. You could absolutely wield a long sword or even an bastard sword and easily gain access to the first two one handed defense feats- (which is kinda broken imo)

Sure, but it's a waste of a feat that's not at all required for fair usage of its continuation feats.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 06:40:17 PM by Pav »

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2017, 08:34:46 PM »
There's nothing saying you have you use a finesseable weapon in order to gain the benefits of these new feats, rather that you just have taken weapon finesse. 18 str/14 dex builds are pretty viable. You could absolutely wield a long sword or even an bastard sword and easily gain access to the first two one handed defense feats- (which is kinda broken imo)

Sure, but it's a waste of a feat that's not at all required for fair usage of its continuation feats.

Fighter's already have A LOT of feat, I do not see any problem here, it's not a waste of feat at all either since in the end its to make your char stronger.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2017, 12:13:02 AM »
I love these changes, though I feel an immense pity for those already established fighters who used CHA as a dump stat.  :cry:

Slightly off-topic question though, is it even possible we might look into making shuriken act like they should  in the hands of a monk? I've been on other servers where you got monk UAB + flurry progression with them. Is that possible to do, here?
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2017, 01:19:45 AM »
Overall I feel like some of the feats are hit or miss in what they try to achieve; the Mercantile Line of feats is amazing for dedicated merchants and/or vendor looters on behalf of parties. Sterling Reputation is interesting but generally speaking the OCR system itself is pretty odd in what it achieves, so any feat based off it is kind of weird to me. Unremarkable especially is a weird one; I don't see how anyone would pick it unless they make a routine of casting in front of NPCs since it doesn't achieve anything in player interactions and the OCR system itself is very vague in a roleplay sense.

Shared Fury is also interesting and opens up a Barbarian/Ranger/Druid multiclass option that is fascinating. The only thing I'd ask is if they both must remain within that range for the effects to continue, or if it's just during the initial use of the rage. Mechanically if it's the former that could be very frustrating to have your animal companion lose it's rage due to being slightly out of range. The addition of taming magical beasts and vermin/insects is also very neat, but I can't help but feel the roster of animal companions needs a slight expansion to boot. But maybe I'm just biased on wanting a crocodile companion since they have one of the most excellent models added in the recent updates.

I really like all of the charismatic Fighter feats since they open up the possibility of a commander-type role for fighters, though the durations seem quite short which is probably fair for balance. Unorthodox Flurry is personally a really appealing feat, but I do wish it was extended to Quarterstaves since it's such an iconic weapon of choice for the class. The last one of real interest to me is Crossbow Sniper, since it goes out of it's way to making Crossbows a viable weapon again in face of Longbow Rapid Shot combos.

Finally on Ruxandra's off-topic mention of shurikens; it would be nice if they were added to the list also for Unorthodox Flurry, but I can't help but feel that without them being craftable they'll still not be really viable options. The shame is still true of throwing axes and throwing darts, sadly.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2017, 01:28:31 PM »
Finally on Ruxandra's off-topic mention of shurikens; it would be nice if they were added to the list also for Unorthodox Flurry, but I can't help but feel that without them being craftable they'll still not be really viable options. The shame is still true of throwing axes and throwing darts, sadly.

I actually like throwing axes, especially since they reduced the weight on them awhile ago since there are not a lot of missile weapons you can use with a shield. My dwarf loves to soften up distant enemies before switching to a melee weapon. It would be nice to make crafted versions though.

I really do love all these new additions though it seems I need to annotate them down for when I need to rebuild my chars as a result of the recent hak update.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2017, 02:03:35 PM »
These are cool. I like the idea of the cha fighter now not being a complete meme.

I don't think anyone will take unremarkable though simply because the potential RP applications of such a feat will probably never be utilized and people starting quarrels that tick off OCR is seldom in the first place. Nobody grinds the citadel for exp. Especially when compared to other feats, I definitely would not do that even on a fighter that gets a feat every level.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 02:05:51 PM by booksarefun666 »

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2017, 02:14:10 PM »
My only issue is with shield parry, which appears to be the "fix" for parry being the go to for tanking with shields becoming obsolete. My problem with it is that it doesnt fix the issue for strength based fighters, rather it just adds even more power and viability to the dex parry build. I'd much rather have it be renamed to Mighty Shield or something along those lines and have a str requirement and perhaps remove any relation to the parry skill, instead being a +1 to AC for wielding a shield, with there being greater versions of it as you progress to add more as you level. Essentially the skill focus feats that you'd use on parry would be used on these instead.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2017, 02:30:49 PM »
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Dex 15+.
Specifics: The character has learnt how to better parry blows with a shield. When fighting with a shield, for every five skill points in Parry the character's armor class is improved by +1 (up to a maximum of +5).
Use: Automatic.

Will the AC bonus granted by this feat be shield AC?
Also,  I would like to see it slightly remade with lowered dex score as requirement. 15 DEX in my opinion mostly fits to builds who aim to get weapon finesse/ use parry ac combined with even higher dex score.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2017, 07:07:21 PM »
Will Bonetti's defense line of feats stack with shield parry?
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2017, 07:11:54 PM »
EO these are all awesome! :thumbup:

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2017, 07:18:30 PM »
My only issue is with shield parry, which appears to be the "fix" for parry being the go to for tanking with shields becoming obsolete. My problem with it is that it doesnt fix the issue for strength based fighters, rather it just adds even more power and viability to the dex parry build. I'd much rather have it be renamed to Mighty Shield or something along those lines and have a str requirement and perhaps remove any relation to the parry skill, instead being a +1 to AC for wielding a shield, with there being greater versions of it as you progress to add more as you level. Essentially the skill focus feats that you'd use on parry would be used on these instead.

I'm not sure how shields are becoming obsolete. I don't even get why Shield Parry is even being considered, since the idea behind Parry giving AC was to give it a reason to exist and even out some playstyles that become horribly disadvantaged in a low-magic setting, honestly.

Consider:
-A shield is +1 to +3 AC off the bat.
-Then Magic Vestmented or Varnished to +4 or +5
-Has other properties (skills, DR, etc) on top of that.

And we're going to add +5 MORE AC on top of all this? Have we been taking crazy pills? Can someone please explain to me how this isn't insane? Even if it was classed "Shield AC" and Magic Vestment/Varnishes didn't stack, it defeats the reason Parry was made useful, to begin with. Playstyles that are severely disadvantaged due to lowered magic/stats are no longer buoyed by Parry, but back to where they were at square one. Now everyone has +5 AC.

Honestly imo, it should look like this...
-If you use a shield, you get no parry benefit. Having the nifty effects of the shield itself is your benefit. (Magic Vestment/Varnish is your AC benefit.)
-If you dual-wield, you get half parry benefit. Having multiple off-hand attacks to increase your DPS is your benefit. (You have the Two-weapon Defense line of feats as an AC benefit.) +1 AC/10 Parry seems balanced for having the extra DPS of off-hand.
-If you use a 2H weapon, you should get some parry benefit. This is because getting a few more damage from Strength is a rather weak bonus in a very low magic setting with no hope of gaining +12 strength. (I'd say +1 AC per 10 modified Parry is fine. +1 AC/5 Parry is too much.)
-Other playstyles get full +1 AC/5 Parry.

I just don't understand the idea of it. It seems too powerful to me, esp given everybody and their dog would have it and now Parry went from "balancing some playstyles out that lose out in low-magic settings" to "free +5 AC for every playstyle and build in the game."

In that case, why even do it? You've not balanced playstyles that suffered from being in a low-magic setting, just raised the AC bar across the board for everyone - which means the game is right back where it started.

Please explain to me why we need shields to have +11 to +13 AC?
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2017, 07:41:57 PM »
My only issue is with shield parry, which appears to be the "fix" for parry being the go to for tanking with shields becoming obsolete. My problem with it is that it doesnt fix the issue for strength based fighters, rather it just adds even more power and viability to the dex parry build. I'd much rather have it be renamed to Mighty Shield or something along those lines and have a str requirement and perhaps remove any relation to the parry skill, instead being a +1 to AC for wielding a shield, with there being greater versions of it as you progress to add more as you level. Essentially the skill focus feats that you'd use on parry would be used on these instead.

I'm not sure how shields are becoming obsolete. I don't even get why Shield Parry is even being considered, since the idea behind Parry giving AC was to give it a reason to exist and even out some playstyles that become horribly disadvantaged in a low-magic setting, honestly.

Consider:
-A shield is +1 to +3 AC off the bat.
-Then Magic Vestmented or Varnished to +4 or +5
-Has other properties (skills, DR, etc) on top of that.

And we're going to add +5 MORE AC on top of all this? Have we been taking crazy pills? Can someone please explain to me how this isn't insane? Even if it was classed "Shield AC" and Magic Vestment/Varnishes didn't stack, it defeats the reason Parry was made useful, to begin with. Playstyles that are severely disadvantaged due to lowered magic/stats are no longer buoyed by Parry, but back to where they were at square one. Now everyone has +5 AC.

Honestly imo, it should look like this...
-If you use a shield, you get no parry benefit. Having the nifty effects of the shield itself is your benefit. (Magic Vestment/Varnish is your AC benefit.)
-If you dual-wield, you get half parry benefit. Having multiple off-hand attacks to increase your DPS is your benefit. (You have the Two-weapon Defense line of feats as an AC benefit.) +1 AC/10 Parry seems balanced for having the extra DPS of off-hand.
-If you use a 2H weapon, you should get some parry benefit. This is because getting a few more damage from Strength is a rather weak bonus in a very low magic setting with no hope of gaining +12 strength. (I'd say +1 AC per 10 modified Parry is fine. +1 AC/5 Parry is too much.)
-Other playstyles get full +1 AC/5 Parry.

I just don't understand the idea of it. It seems too powerful to me, esp given everybody and their dog would have it and now Parry went from "balancing some playstyles out that lose out in low-magic settings" to "free +5 AC for every playstyle and build in the game."

In that case, why even do it? You've not balanced playstyles that suffered from being in a low-magic setting, just raised the AC bar across the board for everyone - which means the game is right back where it started.

Please explain to me why we need shields to have +11 to +13 AC?

I have to agree with this.  This seems like an insane boost to shield-bearers on the server, for relatively little investment for such a huge bonus.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2017, 07:49:19 PM »
Will Bonetti's defense line of feats stack with shield parry?

The One handed defense feats (Bonetti's, Agrippa) will give you dodge ac if you are wielding a weapon with one hand and have nothing in your off hand. It will stack with the ac bonus you receive from the parry skill.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2017, 07:51:10 PM »
My only issue is with shield parry, which appears to be the "fix" for parry being the go to for tanking with shields becoming obsolete. My problem with it is that it doesnt fix the issue for strength based fighters, rather it just adds even more power and viability to the dex parry build. I'd much rather have it be renamed to Mighty Shield or something along those lines and have a str requirement and perhaps remove any relation to the parry skill, instead being a +1 to AC for wielding a shield, with there being greater versions of it as you progress to add more as you level. Essentially the skill focus feats that you'd use on parry would be used on these instead.

I'm not sure how shields are becoming obsolete. I don't even get why Shield Parry is even being considered, since the idea behind Parry giving AC was to give it a reason to exist and even out some playstyles that become horribly disadvantaged in a low-magic setting, honestly.

Consider:
-A shield is +1 to +3 AC off the bat.
-Then Magic Vestmented or Varnished to +4 or +5
-Has other properties (skills, DR, etc) on top of that.

And we're going to add +5 MORE AC on top of all this? Have we been taking crazy pills? Can someone please explain to me how this isn't insane? Even if it was classed "Shield AC" and Magic Vestment/Varnishes didn't stack, it defeats the reason Parry was made useful, to begin with. Playstyles that are severely disadvantaged due to lowered magic/stats are no longer buoyed by Parry, but back to where they were at square one. Now everyone has +5 AC.

...

Please explain to me why we need shields to have +11 to +13 AC?

Seconding this.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2017, 08:28:30 PM »
Not Sure but does shield reduce parrying skill like wearing plate armor does ? I think it does a plate is -8 parrying and huge shield is -10 together is -18 in parrying, so i think this is more like little shield to be useful with skill dump and slightly less heavy shield. With my calculation level 20 with feats focus on parrying and DEX built probably gonna get +2 using huge shield extra, sacrificed STR, and lots of other feats not to mention parrying skill points. Parrying skill is not like tumble it reflect the actual skill points on you with armor and shield on.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2017, 08:48:41 PM »
Not Sure but does shield reduce parrying skill like wearing plate armor does ? I think it does a plate is -8 parrying and huge shield is -10 together is -18 in parrying, so i think this is more like little shield to be useful with skill dump and slightly less heavy shield. With my calculation level 20 with feats focus on parrying and DEX built probably gonna get +2 using huge shield extra, sacrificed STR, and lots of other feats not to mention parrying skill points. Parrying skill is not like tumble it reflect the actual skill points on you with armor and shield on.

It does; you're mostly correct in that regard, though we also adjusted ACP a little bit; 15 on Tower, 10 on Large, still 1 on Small, so a full plate/tower shield using character (why would they even go Parry is beyond me) would start with -23 Parry; they'd thus need 28 Parry to get 1 AC. And we now will cap Parry at 30 skill points pre-ACP, so they couldn't get more than that. That'd bring your Tower Shield's AC at 5 in that situation (since Tower/Large Shields' base AC were both bumped by 1). Full Plate/Large Shield users also wouldn't benefit much, starting at -18 Parry, so max 2 AC if maxing Parry.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2017, 03:52:53 AM »
Basically the Shield Parry feat is useful for Dex fighters who might want to use Shields for extra AC, instead of say going for TWF and and the extra Feats in that line.

I agree that 11 - 13 AC would be pretty insane. But it looks like most of the numbers would actually be in the 9 - 10 range. Which is more reasonable.

Maximum parry AC is (30 - ACP)/5 if you have the Shield Parry Feat, which requires Dex 15. When you translate that with Shield ACP already accounted for, that means:

Small shields: (30 - armour ACP)/5 for means a Dex build in Chainshirt could hit +5 parry AC. That'll give them +10 maximum, including a +4 varnish/vestment.

Large shields: (20 - armour ACP)/5 means a Dex build in Leather would benefit from +4 parry AC; but most builds would probably wear at least a chainshirt, which would lower the maximum parry to +3. So the maximum for most armoured builds is also around +10.

Tower shielsd (15 - armour ACP)/5 means a Dex  build in leather would benefit from +3 parry AC; but why would you go with a Tower Shield build and not wear heavy armour? A half-plate wearing dude (since you're going Dex 15, you may as well wear half-plate) would still be limited to +1 parry AC; all that for an investment of at least 23 ranks in parry, a Feat, and at least an extra +3 to Parry Skill from somewhere.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 06:04:33 AM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2017, 11:22:39 AM »
This might not be the right place to bring this up, but we've talked about it a good bit on the discord chat.

A major concern I have with the upcoming changes is that any gains to AC due to parry will be Dodge bonuses. So basically any time you are flat footed, you lose all this bonus (up to 8 AC!).

While this makes sense mechanically, one of the most common ways I've been put flat footed is when an opponent flees and my character just disengages from combat and doesn't switch targets. Unless this issue is resolved, melee builds that actually use parry will notice they'll be getting hit a lot more often than they had in the past in these situations.

Food for thought.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2017, 11:47:00 AM »
1/3 of the time monsters roll a natural 20 anyway lol.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2017, 02:51:24 PM »
There's nothing saying you have you use a finesseable weapon in order to gain the benefits of these new feats, rather that you just have taken weapon finesse. 18 str/14 dex builds are pretty viable. You could absolutely wield a long sword or even an bastard sword and easily gain access to the first two one handed defense feats- (which is kinda broken imo)

Sure, but it's a waste of a feat that's not at all required for fair usage of its continuation feats.

Fighter's already have A LOT of feat, I do not see any problem here, it's not a waste of feat at all either since in the end its to make your char stronger.

My input is probably not worth much here, but I'll throw my two fang in anyway:
The single weapon feats are great in concept, but the reqs still throw me off. Why are these based on dex rather than, say, the improved parry feat or the like?

The dex req would make sense if we assume that I'm dodging blows, but then why do I need Weapon Finesse as a feat? I'm not using the weapon to defend myself, I'm dodging. If you're requiring weapon finesse, it implies I'm using the weapon as part of the defense, in which case why do we need the dex req? why not require SF: Parry or Improved Parry, to imply that the the sword is what's defending?

I feel like the feat tree is giving me mixed signals.

Otherwise, I like the look of the new feats. Is there any chance of stealing some of the PRC Expansion Pack feats? Canny Defense would be awesome as a feat for fighters, bards, and rogues. I'd love to see some variant of Katana Finesse as well. All of the archery feats are pretty great as well.

Am I following the shield feat discussion correctly in that the setup is basically meant to allow small shields to be useful? Sword and buckler fighting was a very common thing, back in the middle ages.






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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2017, 03:13:18 PM »
The single weapon feats are great in concept, but the reqs still throw me off. Why are these based on dex rather than, say, the improved parry feat or the like?

I think it's a valid suggestion actually.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2017, 04:01:06 PM »
Would it be possible to see some of these sort of feats for two-handed weapons? I'm thinking in the same spirit something like "Talhoffer's Guard" or "Liechtenauer's Strike." Both would fit very thematically with the period, and would toss a bone to that playstyle as well. As it is, two-handers are already going to have lower AC on average than anyone else because they are always strength weapons and thus need heavier armor, so they get less out of Parry due to the armor penalty to skills. Having a +1 AC feat or two would be handy for them. It could go even further and require both Improved Parry and Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Greataxe, or Halberd. 




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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2017, 04:25:15 PM »
As it is, two-handers are already going to have lower AC on average than anyone else because they are always strength weapons and thus need heavier armor, so they get less out of Parry due to the armor penalty to skills. Having a +1 AC feat or two would be handy for them.

The move to make shields better was in part inspired by the fact that two-handers already have it very good; being able to get +4 or +5 parry AC while doing extra damage meant that shields were only a couple of AC points better at best.
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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2017, 09:23:56 PM »
Quote
Am I following the shield feat discussion correctly in that the setup is basically meant to allow small shields to be useful? Sword and buckler fighting was a very common thing, back in the middle ages.

Small and Large will indeed become much more useful than they are now.

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Re: Detailed List of New Feats - Hak Update (2)
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2017, 11:28:05 PM »
On further consideration:
Shield parry is a bit weird compared to the Bonetti's Defense line of feats. In both cases, I can get 5AC from parry, but now my choice is "15 dex and one feat for +2 AC base (which can easily be made significantly higher)" or "spend one more point in dex, have at least a 14int, and drop four feats to get a +3 AC that can't be increased further."

This only seems to strengthen the argument that the dex requirement is weird, as now all three options (Shield+Parry, single-sword+parry, and two-weapon+parry) all require a significant dex investment. Single-sword is way more expensive for what is effectively less benefit compared to a shield+parry character who can easily acquire a masterwork large shield for +3AC or magic vestment/enchant it for further benefit.
---------------

Alternate suggestion:
Leave the TWF tree and the Shield Parry feat alone. Drop the dex requirement (or move it to 13 to fall in line with other "dodging around" feats like Mobility) from the single-sword tree and swap it out for Improved Parry.

Now you have some options:
> High dex and willing to invest in the feats? TWF.
> Willing to invest in some dex? Take the shield feat.
> Willing to invest minimum dex, int, and a few feats? take the the single-sword tree.
> None of the above? go great weapon or tower shield.

That way each path would have different requirements. As it stands now, there's no real reason to take the more difficult option (single-sword tree) over the shield-parry feat. The shield-parry feat can give you a greater benefit for less investment.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 04:24:03 PM by ViktorYouFool »