Author Topic: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements  (Read 1876 times)

Philos

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Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« on: November 19, 2017, 08:33:25 PM »
This thread is for discussing how to enhance the Set Trap and Disable Device skills as well as how traps might be better implemented on PotM in general.

(The thread for discussing the recent "Refiring Traps" change specifically is here: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=47202.0)

A few changes I would be interested in seeing:

Allowing players with disable traps to change a traps faction to the disabler's. The idea would be to turn a dungeons traps against the enemies inside it and provide a different tactic for attempting it. Sure, you can set your own traps but doing that strips invisibility/stealth/GS. The DC would be somewhere between what it takes to disable a trap and recover it. Outside of dungeoneering, I could see this as a useful ability for a stealthy type character who wishes to not alert their trap laying foes to their presence or a creative turn on trap PvP should they detect it.

Randomization of traps has been mentioned else where but I'll bring up it again. A degree of a uncertainty as to where traps are located might make a group slow down or using the above suggestion, be able to try a different angle of attack should the traps be in a useful location. While there is frequently an "urge to press" when dungeoning, this might allow each attempt to feel slightly different and less of a chore. (As a note, I have noticed this happen in the Temples of Sobek andAnubis, where traps will not always spawn on the same doors. This may have to do with the strength of the spawn although I'm uncertain.)

Consider allowing traps to be set without breaking stealth/invisibility with a HIPS like cool-down timer at a Hide and Move Silently penalty, perhaps 20 - 30 points. On par with if not greater than most locks. Outside of setting a trap directly underneath a targets feet I've found it difficult to get sufficiently ahead of a mark to spend the time setting a trap and get out of line of sight to disappear again.

Adding a "Trapmaster" feat that grants a +2 skill bonus to Set Trap and Disable Device. 5 base ranks in each skill as requirement for the feat. This is on par with the Stealthy, Keen Eyes and Alertness feats. This might allow non-rogues that have specialized in the skill a better chance at recovering traps so they might proceed through a dungeon.


Feel free to suggest your own ideas and critique the ones above.

Night of Reod

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 08:54:25 PM »
 I like the suggestions here. My two additions would be:

-To make the DC for rewiring a trap to work on the trap setter harder than the DC to recover it, since you are essentially doing the equivalent of removing the trap and resetting it in a shorter amount of time, not to mention it would probably be more difficult to rewire it the way it is set, especially in a manner that won't alert the person who set it in the first place, instead of setting it in a way more comfortable to you. I think a +5 DC over that of recovery DC would be adequate.

-To make the penalty for setting up a trap without breaking stealth at least 30 if not more, perhaps with a bonus for wilderness areas due to all the underbrush and natural cover to bring it to minus 25-30 range, and for this mechanic to only work with stealth and still disable invisibility and GS.

Philos

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 09:48:45 PM »
I think it should honestly be easier than recovering the trap for it's intended purpose. With recovering you can take it and do anything else with it. Sell it, place it in a better spot, hoard them. Here, you have reduced benefits and have to make use of the trap where it was placed originally. Maybe allow for a disable trap roll to change the factions settings where the DC was the original set trap DC + 5? This would allow people who don't invest in set trap to make some use of existing traps.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:03:46 PM by Philos »

HopeIsTheCarrot

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2017, 06:18:02 AM »
I really like all of the ideas presented here, although I'm uncertain as to the DC of rewiring traps. I would agree that it would make more sense to be slightly lower than recover trap DC, due to its limited usage. But I can also see where it would make more sense to have a higher DC, given the complexity of the action being performed. Either way, I really like the idea though!

Night of Reod

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2017, 10:34:32 AM »
I think it should honestly be easier than recovering the trap for it's intended purpose. With recovering you can take it and do anything else with it. Sell it, place it in a better spot, hoard them. Here, you have reduced benefits and have to make use of the trap where it was placed originally. Maybe allow for a disable trap roll to change the factions settings where the DC was the original set trap DC + 5? This would allow people who don't invest in set trap to make some use of existing traps.

 You would be skirting around having to invest in another skill, however, and rewiring anything but the epic traps should be within the realm of possibility for most with a +5 DC over recovery. Selling traps is not very lucrative at all, and I imagine it would be less so after the latest changes to the merchants, hoarding traps requires you to invest in another skill to be useful and same for setting the trap in a better spot. I think the increased DC is quite fair. Not to mention, most traps are already placed in a pretty good spot to begin with.

Philos

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2017, 10:58:39 AM »
That's a 15 point increase over disarming. That's not reflective of what you're attempting or even feasible for most rogues. 55 for a strong holy trap. You have some benefits of being a multi class cleric with trickery domain that most other won't have. If we want to improve trap usage let's try to add things that players could actually use.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 11:13:24 AM by Philos »

Philos

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2017, 11:11:58 AM »
Another suggestion: consider giving rangers disable trap as a class skill.

Pav

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 12:20:40 PM »
I'm really for most of the ideas and I can't think of anything in particular, though I would like to comment on two things in particular.

Allowing players with disable traps to change a traps faction to the disabler's. The idea would be to turn a dungeons traps against the enemies inside it and provide a different tactic for attempting it. Sure, you can set your own traps but doing that strips invisibility/stealth/GS. The DC would be somewhere between what it takes to disable a trap and recover it. Outside of dungeoneering, I could see this as a useful ability for a stealthy type character who wishes to not alert their trap laying foes to their presence or a creative turn on trap PvP should they detect it.

I don't like this. I'm not sure why, precisely, I'm against this, and since I first saw this post I still couldn't think of something more than "I think it's imbalanced". Against NPC traps, I think that should be fine, but should come at a much greater DC. Against players, however, I can't see this being a good thing, even if it's just rogues vs rogues. It adds a new dimension to trap play, sure, but not one I personally think is necessary. It would make high level rogues, as rare as they are, more annoying than they already are with traps.

Another suggestion: consider giving rangers disable trap as a class skill.

Yes. Compared to Bards, the other stealth class, Rangers have a very clear cut route for spending their skills, most of the time. This should give them more variety on that front, and also dull the recent complaints against rogues (which heavens knows why they're even there). I'm all for this.

Night of Reod

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2017, 03:17:52 PM »
That's a 15 point increase over disarming. That's not reflective of what you're attempting or even feasible for most rogues. 55 for a strong holy trap. You have some benefits of being a multi class cleric with trickery domain that most other won't have. If we want to improve trap usage let's try to add things that players could actually use.

 Holy traps are some of the hardest traps to retrieve, I believe they are just 5 below epic traps if not the same. I am fine with those and epic traps being out of reach until very late game or out of reach completely, as especially epic traps require a huge investment in set traps to be used to begin with and holy traps are the most, and perhaps only, traps that are useful for PvE purposes while also being widely available in places full of undead enemies, so I am fine with them being difficult as well. All other traps would easily be within reach, especially with some investment into skill focus.

Syl

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2017, 11:03:45 PM »
There are many really good PVE traps, depends on the situation. I've used Acid blob to stop Grand ogre smasher in Fane often. just have to figure out the uses.

If I recall recovering a epic is about 55+ Setting them is a DC 60-65. which does require a high investment, and possibly some gear and items.

Though it has been a while since i've taken my rogue out to do dungeons.. Any takers? :)

The traps shouldn't have a complete obvious on what to use it for. Hells I've dumped a BUNCH of traps in harvest temple to save a party from a complete wipe.

For those using traps they have to think outside the box and find all possible uses. Otherwise you're not really making the most of your traps.

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Night of Reod

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Re: Set Trap and Disable Device Improvements
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 02:03:56 AM »
There are many really good PVE traps, depends on the situation. I've used Acid blob to stop Grand ogre smasher in Fane often. just have to figure out the uses.

If I recall recovering a epic is about 55+ Setting them is a DC 60-65. which does require a high investment, and possibly some gear and items.

Though it has been a while since i've taken my rogue out to do dungeons.. Any takers? :)

The traps shouldn't have a complete obvious on what to use it for. Hells I've dumped a BUNCH of traps in harvest temple to save a party from a complete wipe.

For those using traps they have to think outside the box and find all possible uses. Otherwise you're not really making the most of your traps.

 The DC to recover epic traps is 55, the DC to set them is 65. And indeed, acid blob traps can be quite amazing the in the right situation, and the same goes for strong or deadly sonic traps if you are lucky enough to find one. Deadly electric traps will ruin the day of someone with mediocre or low reflex saves and a gas trap is poor man's cloudkill. None of those have the raw, universal power of a 12d10 damage trap with no save, however, especially considering how common undead are on the server and how much of the higher end content are undead. Also, these traps tend to be in very close proximity to undead enemies, some of them even in long hallways you could technically use to clear half of a mid-high level with rewiring traps all by yourself. I think DC 50 is fair for that, which should be doable as a level 15 character with just consumables.