Belladonas

[haifisch021]

I don't know how to quote somebody, so here it goes:

I'm pretty sure Belladonna's on-use effect is to increase AC vs shapechangers, and I would imagine this is very useful for lower level characters considering how common shapechangers are in the areas belladonnas grow. I think it's a good addition to the herb table.

Have you ever used a belladonna on a low level character?

Yes, I actually have used belladonna on a low level character! It's more useful than you might think. I hear people take Luck of Heroes for the extra +1 to saves because "every little bit counts" and I think that sentiment is perfectly applicable here.

Then that 12gp will go a long way because you can buy as many as your heart contents. My primary fear is that this'll cause more herbs from shops to be introduced and we'll have the same thing we had with the loot table, the belladona alone is already spotted often enough to warrant a thread being opened.

If this NCE has taught me anything it's that gold can be scarce at lower levels. There's nothing wrong with having an alternative means of acquiring items other than buying them.

While I can sympathize with the idea of gold being scarce, one trip to Krofburg with mining equipment can get you 50 belladonnas.  A simple bag of letters can get you eight if you're really grasping at straws. If your personal game plan consists of eating Belladonnas frequently I'm sure you'll manage, somehow.

Even better, you can get two belladonnas for the current going rate of one useful herb. (25 gp)

This is true!
But not all characters have the luxury of deliveries. Additionally, I find that (often to my dismay) most of my gold at lower levels is burned on raising the dead. And while this is essentially a non-issue (god forbid I leave a soul to rest ) I still see no issue with leaving the option for belladonna picking open. It honestly does not impact herb spawns that much.

[Chaoshawk]

Speaking as a player, I also think there are more than enough herb spawning, and we're far from being short on herbs. Herbs grow in almost every outdoor area and the percentage of Belladona is very small. There is no need to change anything about the way Belladona spawn imo.

Herbalism is probably the easiest crafting, ingredient are VERY easy to find (even with Belladona being there) and it's not that expensive to level up compared to other crafting, it is also a very strong craft to have.

I really don't think there is any real issue with Belladona taking useful herb spot sometime.

There is no questioning herbalism is the easiest to get into crafting due to the volume of herbs outside of winter. Although, I don't see an argument for implementing belladonna in the first place when merchants already sold it. Now that it is in, yes it's somewhat minor but it is unnecessary and takes away from the herbalism craft. I don't see any reason to keep it in replacing current plants. While the other herbs have synergy and other possibilities depending on how you mix them belladonna is just a single use herb for a minor AC bonus and as it is currently in it is like finding a 20lb gold bar worth 1gp in a low level dungeon it isn't worth bothering with. Were belladonna not currently implemented I would see no reason to add them period.

[haifisch021]

Rather than removing belladonna, I think a better solution would be to make recipes for the herb. I think it would be cool to add poisons to herbalism, and since belladonna is toxic in certain quantities I think it'd be a good place to start.

Of course, we've just been given a bunch of content; content that I have yet to even explore the surface of. Eventually, perhaps!

[booksarefun666]

I was under the impression currently that belladonna didn't have much use and I benefit directly by having more herbs for herbalism.

Barris, if the herb 'Belladonna' was removed from the herb table while still up for sale in the herb merchants how would it detract from your personal gaming experience in this server?

So far I got:

I miss out on a minor AC  buff vs Lycanthropes if I happen to don't  have any gold on me.

[Roose]

If you have any type of deflection AC already (and it's VERY likely you do) - the effects do not stack with Belladona.

Flavorful yes, practical no. I like the idea it has it's own spawns and not taking up regular herb nodes.

[Pav]

I want to echo what has already been exactly said - I feverishly agree with all the points made to its lack of mechanical use and its clutter of actually useful herb nodes. Make new herb nodes, specifically for RP / "useless" herbs, or remove it, is what I think should be done.

[Better Dread than Dead]

Belladonna is a poison, right? It'd be nice if you could somehow transform it into vials of Deadly Nightshade.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

It is more than a little surprising to me that such an at length discussion has emerged from Belladona of all things. If anything is to be adjusted in this herbalism crafting system, herbs are too plentiful and herbalism too easy in comparison to the other crafts, particularly considering the immediate and long-term benefits of picking up herbalism compared to the other crafts. If people are truly this hung up over Belladona, then I would say to remove it from the herb spawn nodes, reduce the number of herb spawn nodes in all wilderness areas across the board, and create a separate spawn node for "flavorful" herbs. Of course, all of this seems more than a little ridiculous to me, and frankly feels like fixing a problem that does not exist. If there were a scarcity of herbs or a small percentage of players/characters currently willing to pursue Herbalism then it may be a different story, but neither of those is the case at the present moment.

[DM Erebus]

"flavorful" herbs.

Pun intended?

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

"flavorful" herbs.

Pun intended?

Haha unfortunately no, glad you caught it though!

[Norture]

Belladonna is a poison, right? It'd be nice if you could somehow transform it into vials of Deadly Nightshade.

This! Belladonna is the most poisonous plant in the nightshade family, it is deadly nightshade.

[booksarefun666]

It is more than a little surprising to me that such an at length discussion has emerged from Belladona of all things. If anything is to be adjusted in this herbalism crafting system, herbs are too plentiful and herbalism too easy in comparison to the other crafts, particularly considering the immediate and long-term benefits of picking up herbalism compared to the other crafts. If people are truly this hung up over Belladona, then I would say to remove it from the herb spawn nodes, reduce the number of herb spawn nodes in all wilderness areas across the board,

Herbalism isn't really that 'easy' compared to other crafts. It's still as mind-numbing as the rest and you actually have to move away from your work station to get the ingredients. None of our professions are hard, just simply timesinks. You just find a lot of people swallowing it because it's actually useful and profitable unlike our other professions.

e.g,

Smithing you ping away on a rock for a good half hour, smelt, then spam greatswords or fullplate.

Woodworking you cut trees for a good half hour, saw, and then spam longbows, shields, etc. depending where you're at.

Alchemy you go participate in dungeons you already do or you can do by yourself. I already see plenty of high level clerics hit the ghost temple hard.

Tailoring you buy materials from a vendor and spend a half hour spamming wool shirts.

Leatherworking is possibly the hardest simply because it breaks up so many aspects in different subprofessions of their own that uses different stats but the materials barring high-end stuff (like ancient croc) is not hard to get.

Enchanting I'm not even sure because I don't have a high level wizard yet.

Barring enchanting, does any of those sound harder than herbalism? You can have herb baskets by the bucketful, yes, but you 1.)can get wolf pelt hides by the bucket as well 2.)biff a lot of them during the leveling process. I think you just mean more useful than the other professions and in your mind, that should mean it should get nerfed.

Getting this nerfed is another distinct fear because it was fine as-is, until junk herbs were introduced.

[Tycat]

I really like that belladonna grows in nature, and use it. It's actually less common to be able to afford the herb than you think.

[haifisch021]

It is more than a little surprising to me that such an at length discussion has emerged from Belladona of all things. If anything is to be adjusted in this herbalism crafting system, herbs are too plentiful and herbalism too easy in comparison to the other crafts, particularly considering the immediate and long-term benefits of picking up herbalism compared to the other crafts. If people are truly this hung up over Belladona, then I would say to remove it from the herb spawn nodes, reduce the number of herb spawn nodes in all wilderness areas across the board,

Herbalism isn't really that 'easy' compared to other crafts. It's still as mind-numbing as the rest and you actually have to move away from your work station to get the ingredients. None of our professions are hard, just simply timesinks. You just find a lot of people swallowing it because it's actually useful and profitable unlike our other professions.

e.g,

Smithing you ping away on a rock for a good half hour, smelt, then spam greatswords or fullplate.

Woodworking you cut trees for a good half hour, saw, and then spam longbows, shields, etc. depending where you're at.

Alchemy you go participate in dungeons you already do or you can do by yourself. I already see plenty of high level clerics hit the ghost temple hard.

Tailoring you buy materials from a vendor and spend a half hour spamming wool shirts.

Leatherworking is possibly the hardest simply because it breaks up so many aspects in different subprofessions of their own that uses different stats but the materials barring high-end stuff (like ancient croc) is not hard to get.

Enchanting I'm not even sure because I don't have a high level wizard yet.

Barring enchanting, does any of those sound harder than herbalism? You can have herb baskets by the bucketful, yes, but you 1.)can get wolf pelt hides by the bucket as well 2.)biff a lot of them during the leveling process. I think you just mean more useful than the other professions and in your mind, that should mean it should get nerfed.

Getting this nerfed is another distinct fear because it was fine as-is, until junk herbs were introduced.

lol herbalism is much, much easier than any other craft. It's only one step from ingredients to potion. Barring that, herbs weigh less than any other crafting material, and are extremely common. I've walked into the crafting tent in MC with enough herbs to craft for several IRL hours without pause, and it hardly encumbered me at all. Compare this with blacksmithing, for instance, where the material is some 50 times heavier.

[haifisch021]

Further, another benefit herbalism has is it is soloable.
What I mean by this, is, when your level is appropriate for the zone you are in, you are fully capable of performing herbalism with little to no risk of death, injury, or loss of any kind beyond cost.

My third week in the server, my friends and I decided to pick up crafting. One took up alchemy, one took up mining, and I took up herbalism. There's a reason I was able to level up to lvl 25 herbalism in a week and they weren't able to achieve similar results in their crafts (and its not because I'm good at the game).

Simply put herbalism is the most time efficient craft on the server.

Alchemy vs. Herbalism: Alchemy requires a relatively large investment early on (a kit and an alembic runs around 350 if I remember correctly; much more than the 50gp pestle). Herb nodes are very common, and when you find an herb you are guaranteed to get material. Compare this to alchemy, where you must kill enemies (there is inherent risk here, mind you) for a chance of an ingredient drop. Every beginning recipe I have seen of alchemy has required multiple ingredients, too, which only makes it harder to craft. Furthermore, you are required to make *two* DC checks when crafting for alchemy. Compare this with beginning herbalism recipes - one herb, one check, one potion.

[Norture]

I'd rather not turn this into a dick waving contest about what the easiest craft is, but rather see this thread focus on cool things that could be done with belladonna to make it fit in with the theme of other spawnable herbs. I really like the idea of being able to make poison with it.

[Legion XXI]

I mean regardless of how easy it is to level the craft, I think the entire point of this discussion that it's annoying to have non-herbalism objects spawn at nodes that were specifically made to spawn herbalism items.

As brought up, that would be like rocks just giving you "chunks of useless rock" instead of ore, or enemies that normally drop alchemy reagents every now and then dropping some other body part that can't be used for alchemy.  It's annoying and "but I use it for my RP" isn't a good excuse because ANYTHING could be an RP item in the right circumstances.  That doesn't mean it's worth making it pop up in a place that replaces items that are usually used to level a craft.

I mean check this out.  This is an item that we actually found while looting this NCE.



I'm sure someone out there is super happy that this item dropped, but to the rest of us who don't want useless string outside of the one scene ever that this has been used as an RP item, this is just annoying to see crop up.  I feel like we have a VERY large number of "useless string" type items popping up these days and I'm all for removing any of them in any capacity.  Belladonna is just the 'useless string' of herb nodes for me.  Making it into a poison (or potion) would be cool too.  I just hate seeing items with very focused RP use replace items that have much more broad use.  If you just want it for RP, let people buy it from the shop that sells it.

[derkotushka]

From all craft herbalism - was first craft thing which I began do.
As player who took 30 level in herbalism and doing herbalism a lot(and on other charcaters) - I will say what Belladonna never and never was a problem when you gathering herbs for crafting.
It is indeed takes place of other actually useful herb but it is so many herbs what sometime it is not easy find Belladonna.
Poison crafting was offered like year or so ago (and maybe even early too?)
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=44495.25

In game there still many places where is no any herb grows and I generally like idea add more herbs like Belladonna but perhaps in some kind of separate way which will not create problem to gather other herbs for crafting.

[booksarefun666]

You guys convinced me. Furthermore, can we have ore have the occasional chance of just being useless slag iron when you smelt copper ore all the way up to adamantium ore?

I think if you kill anything with a sword you have a one in ten chance of screwing up a reagent and it just ends up as [broken organ].

Leatherworking there's also another chance of ruining the pelt if you use anything but a bludgeoning weapon.

We could use more items to help facilitate RP and this really does add flavor to the server. I also want to beat someone with a slag iron bar as my guard and I sometimes don't have the gold for a regular iron bar to beat someone with.

[haifisch021]

You guys convinced me. Furthermore, can we have ore have the occasional chance of just being useless slag iron when you smelt copper ore all the way up to adamantium ore?

I think if you kill anything with a sword you have a one in ten chance of screwing up a reagent and it just ends up as [broken organ].

Leatherworking there's also another chance of ruining the pelt if you use anything but a bludgeoning weapon.

We could use more items to help facilitate RP and this really does add flavor to the server. I also want to beat someone with a slag iron bar as my guard and I sometimes don't have the gold for a regular iron bar to beat someone with.

If you don't like belladonna, you don't have to pick it. All herbs are clearly marked and what you see is what you get. There is no "chance" involved in them beyond their initial spawning.
Belladonna is not that common and I think you are exaggerating just how big of an "issue" it is.

Facetiousness aside, your proposal is ineffective because the impact of having belladonna as a spawn chance is much less significant than the changes you have proposed. Introducing chance into ore spawns, animal drops, and monster drops is different because these are values that the player is unable to see until they have put in the labor to obtain the resource.

When picking herbs, if I see one I don't like or don't want, I don't pick it.
That option is not available to, say, alchemists hunting.
All in all you have not provided good analogues to the topic you have brought forward.

[haifisch021]

Back onto the topic at hand, though, I think it would be better to instead add a recipe for belladonna and remove it from vendor tables to make it a full-fledged herb.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

You guys convinced me. Furthermore, can we have ore have the occasional chance of just being useless slag iron when you smelt copper ore all the way up to adamantium ore?

I think if you kill anything with a sword you have a one in ten chance of screwing up a reagent and it just ends up as [broken organ].

Leatherworking there's also another chance of ruining the pelt if you use anything but a bludgeoning weapon.

We could use more items to help facilitate RP and this really does add flavor to the server. I also want to beat someone with a slag iron bar as my guard and I sometimes don't have the gold for a regular iron bar to beat someone with.

The beetle mandibles end up damaged more than 10% of the time.

The first step of leatherworking is to cure the animal hide anyway so it's not really as if your using an entire, "undamaged" animal hide in the process anyway.

I for one would love to see the Garda start beating people with slag iron bars.

Belladona isn't included in all of the herb spawn nodes, nor does it pop up as 10% of all herb spawns.

Glad to hear that we were able to convince you!

I'm not necessarily opposed to giving Belladona a recipe, although it would certainly need to be removed from the vendors then.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

I'd rather not turn this into a dick waving contest about what the easiest craft is, but rather see this thread focus on cool things that could be done with belladonna to make it fit in with the theme of other spawnable herbs. I really like the idea of being able to make poison with it.

A flimsy twig blowing around in the wind next to a 3 foot log doesn't really constitute a "dick waving contest." Herbalism takes less time to master than the other crafts, is available to a wider range of characters, costs less to startup and continue, and is more profitable at every stage of the process.

[Norture]

Alright let me rephrase: Let's not derail the thread with what's harder than what. Let's talk about the exciting possibility about adding new content!

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Agreed. If Belladona is given its own recipe, its most logical that it would be used in some way to create some variety of poison. Does poison fit in well with the current use and atmosphere of herbalism? Will it be an issue if so many characters are able to brew this poison? (These are honest questions, of which I am curious to know the opinions of others on).