Discussion Regarding Rogue Equipment, Lockpicking, Stealth and Invisibility

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Haha good! I vote we shun the Paladin who clothed you and parade all ninja looters naked through the streets of every town in Barovia.

You kind of missed the point here. Think about what bad and interesting things can happen because you were alone. Think about what happens when a less than nice character finds your corpse and decides to use it for their puppet. Think about how a routine looting run could turn into an ambush as your rival places traps at the entrance to the dungeon or give See Invis to enemies that arn't "supposed" to have it. Isolation is a part of this setting. This is one way it happens.

There is a distinct difference between "missing the point" and finding one specific example of an occurrence that happens with comically low frequency to be more of a subject to point and laugh at than to take as a serious counter-argument as evidence that a specific action is dangerous.
One time I got robbed on my routine trip to take out the trash, therefore people are seriously underestimating how dangerous it isn't to take out the trash. Of course this example is really a generous under exaggeration of your example, because your example didn't take place in a quiet suburban neighborhood, it took place in RAVENLOFT - where practically everything constitutes some level of risk on at least some random occurrences. Petre tells the newcomers not to go outside at night... so I'm sorry that your solo instance of ninja looting gone wrong was taken more as a joke than as an example of the risk involved with the practice. I did not "miss the point," I just thought laughing it off would be preferable to this response.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Kind of complicated and would limit lockpicks' utility. For example, your hypothetical +11 lockpicks would need a 19th or 20th level rogue to use, right? How many of those play regularly?

1:1 maybe (to use a +12 the PC must have 12 ranks in open locks).

The thing is Iridni, you don't need +12 picks for anything, they're excessive. The highest DC you'll likely run into is 52. This is what you'll find in Curst, Perdifus and the Ghastrian Chapel. Yes, there are a few higher ones out there, but they're either in Veidrava or plot related. You get a take 20 on Open Lock and with a +12 pick you only need 20 points between you skills, dex and buffs, Knock and gear. The highest tier is easily attainable with a very small character investment.

I completely agree, which is why I said that I doubt this solution would really have much if any of an impact. But, since the question came up, i explained the idea that presented by another player earlier on in this topic thread. I'm in favor of the spirit and concept of the solution, but I don't think this specific idea would really change anything.

[Philos]

There is a distinct difference between "missing the point" and finding one specific example of an occurrence that happens with comically low frequency to be more of a subject to point and laugh at than to take as a serious counter-argument as evidence that a specific action is dangerous.

Spend some more time here and perhaps you'll find out why adventuring alone and looting is truly dangerous.
ask the characters

Spoiler: show

Otila Albu, Teodor Ursu, Yunon Ambrosius, Boots Lightknife, Samson, Alin Cain or Elias Calraheal.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

There is a distinct difference between "missing the point" and finding one specific example of an occurrence that happens with comically low frequency to be more of a subject to point and laugh at than to take as a serious counter-argument as evidence that a specific action is dangerous.

Spend some more time here and perhaps you'll find out why adventuring alone and looting is truly dangerous.
ask the characters

Spoiler: show

Otila Albu, Teodor Ursu, Yunon Ambrosius, Boots Lightknife, Samson, Alin Cain or Elias Calraheal.

I think the 9 years I've spent playing on this server and the countless characters I've lost and closed have made me sufficiently familiar with the dangers of the server and of venturing. The argument isn't that adventuring alone isn't dangerous, obviously it is. The argument is that ninja looting is no less dangerous than adventuring alone or in many instances than adventuring in a group, and it obviously should be. Obviously adventuring alone and ninja looting can be dangerous, PotM is designed to be a tough server representative of a tough setting. But pointing to one specific instance of PC interaction and using that as evidence for the dangers of ninja looting is a ridiculous argument.

[Iridni Ren]

gets out ruler

[Philos]

Well, when I point to eight different interactions I've had, It's really not that ridiculous.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Well, when I point to eight different interactions I've had, It's really not that ridiculous.

Your initial post didn't point to 8 interactions it pointed to 1... this has gotten ridiculously off topic and out of hand. Apologies if my comment was offensive, my intent was to highlight the fact that when gauging the risks of ninja looting we may have to consider more than one isolated event.

(A ruler won't be large enough, go look for a yardstick)

[Night of Reod]

 Ninja looting has its own risks, of course, but so does running a dungeon, and things can go wrong in dungeons just as easily as it can with ninja looting, via chain lucky crits, an enemy slipping by and getting to the backline or many other factors. The only added difficulty there is to ninja looting is that if something goes wrong, you are by yourself, which is something the suggestions try to tackle as a problem to begin with, and something the server design tries to avoid if possible.

 As for it being a narrative and RP of its own, that is indeed true, and that is why the suggested changes try to keep that and improve it, such as the proposed spotter enemies and patrols, and increased lockpicking time. It is aimed at making stealth and ninja looting something more challenging and rewarding, and possibly even something that is a group effort, which keeps its benefits that were mentioned before but makes it something that is a group experience, and a unique one that regular dungeon runs do not really offer.

 As for the lock DCs, I believe highest DC I have seen is 52 as well, but even that is the case for a few chests, I think the chests in the last room of Tomb of Hotep are DC 52 in the entirety of Har'Akir, perhaps the ones in the hidden room in Anubis as well but I think those are slightly lower. Even for higher level content, DC 52, which is not that high to begin with, is fairly rare. +12 lockpicks are a fairly common drop from Har'Akir, and they are excessive and hence useless for anyone with rogue levels who invest fully or heavily in Open Locks.

 Going back to a previous point, Philos mentioned that there are indeed some very interesting RP opportunities that come up when you are alone and by yourself, and it is a great thing to have those. But I think taking the development in a way that benefits collective narrative and stories and increases RP between players is more important, as Soren mention in another post as well, and this may cause some frustration or some of these "isolation" narratives to suffer, but it would not remove it by any means, and I think a reduction in those for an increase in shared narrative is a worthy trade off.

[k_moustakas]

These discussions really never change. Do you people honestly intend to have a semi-objective discussion on this by solely praising the steed you ride on? The way it seems to me here, this has degenerated into a conflict between those who partake in ninja looting, and those who do not. The truth at hand is, this topic doesn't and shouldn't even marginally concern your RP and how you approach it, because hey, that's the primary aspect of this server after all - roleplay.

But... but... that's not true! POTM is all about forum drama  ! Gosh I miss those days. Hahahaha just kidding, I don't.

And yes, the topic has degenerated, whoever had an actual oppinion voiced it already. Now we just fight - que mortal kombat music

[Philos]

I don't want to say we remove the higher tier picks entirely, but maybe not have the +10 and 12 types available from merchants or better yet, have them available from Rogue only merchants or merchants with a special selection for Rogues.

I'm not sure how the treasuries are set up in Har-Akir, but maybe some thought could be given to pruning some these picks from some, not all, of these dungeons. I know there are treasuries that only spawn in Har-Akir. It's the reason you don't t find eyes of Ra in barovia.

[Night of Reod]

I don't want to say we remove the higher tier picks entirely, but maybe not have the +10 and 12 types available from merchants or better yet, have them available from Rogue only merchants or merchants with a special selection for Rogues.

I'm not sure how the treasuries are set up in Har-Akir, but maybe some thought could be given to pruning some these picks from some, not all, of these dungeons. I know there are treasuries that only spawn in Har-Akir. It's the reason you don't t find eyes of Ra in barovia.

 I think increasing lock DCs is the most feasible option rather than removing lockpicks or doing fancy coding to make it so they are only usable by certain people with certain points in a skill. I think the lockpick drops could still use tweaking even with higher DC locks however, as higher bonus ones really drop too often.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

I don't want to say we remove the higher tier picks entirely, but maybe not have the +10 and 12 types available from merchants or better yet, have them available from Rogue only merchants or merchants with a special selection for Rogues.

I'm not sure how the treasuries are set up in Har-Akir, but maybe some thought could be given to pruning some these picks from some, not all, of these dungeons. I know there are treasuries that only spawn in Har-Akir. It's the reason you don't t find eyes of Ra in barovia.

 I think increasing lock DCs is the most feasible option rather than removing lockpicks or doing fancy coding to make it so they are only usable by certain people with certain points in a skill. I think the lockpick drops could still use tweaking even with higher DC locks however, as higher bonus ones really drop too often.

I agree, it seems to me that nearly everyone is in favor of higher Open Lock DC's in higher lvl dungeons, as well as a reduction in the most powerful of Lock picking tools. I haven't seen anyone voice an opinion that was opposed to either of these suggestions yet. I also really like the previously suggested idea to increase the time needed to perform the open lock action from 5 seconds to 15 seconds, although I'm not sure if this is could be done or not?

[Iridni Ren]

Not being a coder, my opinion as to which would be more feasible is less valuable than would be the opinion of those who do code

But!!

In terms of the game, I think increasing the lock DC is just making it harder on everyone indiscriminately. It would not seem to address any imbalance among classes.

[k_moustakas]

I remember the time that locks HAD a much higher DC like the low level dungeons had high 30s and the random caves had locks in the 40s. Without +8 lockpicks or the red vardo gear nobody could pick anything. Was not fun.

[DM Cataclysm]

I like the suggestion here of making the lock pick tools 1:1 with open lock ranks. That way someone can't have 1 rank and grab +12 tools to go on an unlocking spree. I do think a few specific dungeons could use a lock DC increase, but I wouldn't suggest doing this across the board.

I think one of the problems with trying to require a lot of different/specific and high end character types to run a single dungeon is just the practicality of doing so in a server environment. Mitigating bonuses for other classes in lockpicking and raising the lock DC's would be good to encourage rogues in theory - but the more steps we take to try to prevent the ability to 'mimic' another class, the more difficult it's going to be to adventure. I've stood around in mist camp a lot (a lot, a lot, a lot) when trying to adventure to mid level areas with a small group and couldn't do so because. . . if only we had X (healer, trapper, mind protection, etc). Previously you could get by without a mage sometimes by using scrolls, but I think that's going to become less viable with the scroll price increase. Drastically narrowing rogue skills would do the same.

I've played here a little over 4 years and the server population is very cyclical. Right now - we're approaching NCE, on the back of a hak update, both of which always encourage a brief boost in the population. It's common right now to log in and see 40+ people online and so these ideas seem a little better, because your chances of getting a diverse party are better.

In my time here, there have probably been about 3-4 several month stretches where the server population drops dramatically and even in peak times, you'll see about 10-15 people online. When you consider that number of players spread out across the whole server - you're probably not going to find 5, appropriate level/diverse characters standing around in the same location for an adventure. There's also the issue of players in low-population timezones, etc. All in all - I get the idea to allow a class to have exclusive specialties, but when those things are fundamental to being able to adventure on the server - I think trying to specialize too much runs the risk of grinding things to a halt.

[Iridni Ren]

To add to Mika's points, many of you come from the position of having been here a long time and knowing the DC for every lock for every spawn.

New players don't. I think it would be very frustrating--especially for the rogue PC--to get a good team together and hit a dungeon, only for the rogue to discover the locks and traps are beyond her reach. True, this can always happen, but someone who does devote herself to building a pure rogue should have a reasonable chance at contributing her skill successfully when in a level-appropriate area. Most DCs shouldn't be designed for an optimized party having all the best gear and buffs.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

I like the suggestion here of making the lock pick tools 1:1 with open lock ranks. That way someone can't have 1 rank and grab +12 tools to go on an unlocking spree. I do think a few specific dungeons could use a lock DC increase, but I wouldn't suggest doing this across the board.

I think one of the problems with trying to require a lot of different/specific and high end character types to run a single dungeon is just the practicality of doing so in a server environment. Mitigating bonuses for other classes in lockpicking and raising the lock DC's would be good to encourage rogues in theory - but the more steps we take to try to prevent the ability to 'mimic' another class, the more difficult it's going to be to adventure. I've stood around in mist camp a lot (a lot, a lot, a lot) when trying to adventure to mid level areas with a small group and couldn't do so because. . . if only we had X (healer, trapper, mind protection, etc). Previously you could get by without a mage sometimes by using scrolls, but I think that's going to become less viable with the scroll price increase. Drastically narrowing rogue skills would do the same.

I've played here a little over 4 years and the server population is very cyclical. Right now - we're approaching NCE, on the back of a hak update, both of which always encourage a brief boost in the population. It's common right now to log in and see 40+ people online and so these ideas seem a little better, because your chances of getting a diverse party are better.

In my time here, there have probably been about 3-4 several month stretches where the server population drops dramatically and even in peak times, you'll see about 10-15 people online. When you consider that number of players spread out across the whole server - you're probably not going to find 5, appropriate level/diverse characters standing around in the same location for an adventure. There's also the issue of players in low-population timezones, etc. All in all - I get the idea to allow a class to have exclusive specialties, but when those things are fundamental to being able to adventure on the server - I think trying to specialize too much runs the risk of grinding things to a halt.

This is a strong point, and one which I had not considered. 1:1 may be a more viable and less complicated ratio for Lock pick tools (if that's even possible from the coding end). Also I think most if not all of the posts in this thread which advocated for Open Lock DC increase were specificed towards high end dungeons, where it seems more appropriate in that specific instance to have higher Open Lock DCs. I don't think anyone was arguing that the issue is with low level dungeons or mid level random caves.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

To add to Mika's points, many of you come from the position of having been here a long time and knowing the DC for every lock for every spawn.

New players don't. I think it would be very frustrating--especially for the rogue PC--to get a good team together and hit a dungeon, only for the rogue to discover the locks and traps are beyond her reach. True, this can always happen, but someone who does devote herself to building a pure rogue should have a reasonable chance at contributing her skill successfully when in a level-appropriate area. Most DCs shouldn't be designed for an optimized party having all the best gear and buffs.

I see what you're saying here, but at the same time does this not create a fun and reasonable RP scenario? Where a new Rogue, unfamiliar with the environment, overestimated their Lock picking abilities and has to RP that scenario out? To me that sounds more like a fun RP scenario than an unfortunate or frustrating gameplay mechanic, but that may just be my personal preference.

[Iridni Ren]

To add to Mika's points, many of you come from the position of having been here a long time and knowing the DC for every lock for every spawn.

New players don't. I think it would be very frustrating--especially for the rogue PC--to get a good team together and hit a dungeon, only for the rogue to discover the locks and traps are beyond her reach. True, this can always happen, but someone who does devote herself to building a pure rogue should have a reasonable chance at contributing her skill successfully when in a level-appropriate area. Most DCs shouldn't be designed for an optimized party having all the best gear and buffs.

I see what you're saying here, but at the same time does this not create a fun and reasonable RP scenario? Where a new Rogue, unfamiliar with the environment, overestimated their Lock picking abilities and has to RP that scenario out? To me that sounds more like a fun RP scenario than an unfortunate or frustrating gameplay mechanic, but that may just be my personal preference.

When I've seen this happen, it was the end of the adventure. Everyone packs it in. I couldn't help but feel bad for the rogue because the reason you bring her is for this, and she has let the whole party down.

To be quite frank, higher experienced *players* use OOC knowledge to avoid this situation even with their new PCs. So they don't get bitten by it. That means not only does a party have to have a mix of PCs based on ability, but experience on the server.

I find this undesirable for two reasons: it makes the server feel more cliquish (never a good thing), and it's immersion-breaking. Instead of feeling as though a dungeon run is a new experience, we're reminded that someone has been there, done that, and has the "I survived Ghastria" tee shirt.

(To be clear, I don't think players should pretend ignorance unless they want to. But it's a little more magical for me--who has still not visited many areas on the server--to feel I can explore with like-minded PCs and not have everything feel, "You know the drill.")

To come back to topic, another example is knowing where traps and secret doors are. Experienced players will stand and stand in one place until the hidden door shows up...because they know it's there. That reduces the need to invest in the skills necessary for finding it, again making a rogue less useful. Raising the DC makes it harder for everyone...but especially on a new rogue who doesn't know the server and that you have to search *in that spot*.

The rogue is being artificially penalized because she actually is better at searching, but the more experienced player uses OOC knowledge to "win."

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

To add to Mika's points, many of you come from the position of having been here a long time and knowing the DC for every lock for every spawn.

New players don't. I think it would be very frustrating--especially for the rogue PC--to get a good team together and hit a dungeon, only for the rogue to discover the locks and traps are beyond her reach. True, this can always happen, but someone who does devote herself to building a pure rogue should have a reasonable chance at contributing her skill successfully when in a level-appropriate area. Most DCs shouldn't be designed for an optimized party having all the best gear and buffs.

I see what you're saying here, but at the same time does this not create a fun and reasonable RP scenario? Where a new Rogue, unfamiliar with the environment, overestimated their Lock picking abilities and has to RP that scenario out? To me that sounds more like a fun RP scenario than an unfortunate or frustrating gameplay mechanic, but that may just be my personal preference.

When I've seen this happen, it was the end of the adventure. Everyone packs it in. I couldn't help but feel bad for the rogue because the reason you bring her is for this, and she has let the whole party down.

To be quite frank, higher experienced *players* use OOC knowledge to avoid this situation even with their new PCs. So they don't get bitten by it. That means not only does a party have to have a mix of PCs based on ability, but experience on the server.

I find this undesirable for two reasons: it makes the server feel more cliquish (never a good thing), and it's immersion-breaking. Instead of feeling as though a dungeon run is a new experience, we're reminded that someone has been there, done that, and has the "I survived Ghastria" tee shirt.

(To be clear, I don't think players should pretend ignorance unless they want to. But it's a little more magical for me--who has still not visited many areas on the server--to feel I can explore with like-minded PCs and not have everything feel, "You know the drill.")

To come back to topic, another example is knowing where traps and secret doors are. Experienced players will stand and stand in one place until the hidden door shows up...because they know it's there. That reduces the need to invest in the skills necessary for finding it, again making a rogue less useful. Raising the DC makes it harder for everyone...but especially on a new rogue who doesn't know the server and that you have to search *in that spot*.

The rogue is being artificially penalized because she actually is better at searching, but the more experienced player uses OOC knowledge to "win."

Alrighty, I can get on board with both of these points. I agree that we need to remain cognizant of this "clique" like dynamic that sometimes develops. I'm also opposed to punishing new players and recognize that not all veteran players choose to RP new characters as lacking this OOC knowledge, although I think it adds to the setting and feel of the game when they do.

I would also be interested in this clothing/apparel idea. An "I survived Ghastria" t shirt sounds pretty great to me. It would go nicely with an "I summited Mount Baratak" hat.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Just a quick note, we are working on several things to restore the (classic) role of the rogue (under the slogan "make rogues great again!"). The discussion here has honestly been a bit too lengthy and convoluted for us to participate fully in (if we're also to get something actually done) but we really appreciate the input and suggestions, several of which we are now working to implement, others mirroring things we were actually already planning to do. I'd share more details, but we still need to decide on a few things and figure out what is feasible to implement in a meaningful and balanced way without frustrating too many others. So stay tuned.