Discussion Regarding Rogue Equipment, Lockpicking, Stealth and Invisibility

[julienchab]

 Just because I don't ninja loot does not mean I never did ninja loot, nor does it make my argument void or invalid.

I believe it does. If someone comes to me IRL and starts voicing opinions or facts about hockey while he has no experience in hockey, his arguments and opinions are pretty void, since he doesn't know what he is talking about. To me, that's the same thing about ninjalooting here, as people who voice opinions against it are people who never/rarely do ninjalooting.

If I listen to two people giving different opinions about a subject, one that has multiple hours of experience in it, and one who doesn't, I know whom I would listen to, and know that is argument is worth more.

[Night of Reod]

^ The wisdom of the Chab.

And, as far as ninja looting NOT increasing merchant role play, that's simply not accurate with any experience I've had here. Sure, you could argue that someone can ninja loot and then sell to vendors and stockpile the rest, but realistically that's not the majority of what happens.

My current merchant PC has obtained nearly all of his inventory from ninja looting and he spends about a 70% of his time managing wares, putting out fliers, manning his shop, and discussing items with other PC's. If it was up to him only obtaining items from group adventures, he'd have drastically less and wouldn't really need to spend the same time engaging in merchant RP.

At the end of the day, ninja looting doesn't really break anyone else's game. It doesn't interfere with another player's ability to obtain the same items, run a dungeon, or create a character that can do.... exactly the same thing. The Dev team has taken the time to balance a lot of the problems - variable loot spawns don't populate as often (you can't fly through shadow caves and make a killing like you used to), you can't loot the same locations repeatedly, etc. some people may have some personal hang ups about ninja looting, but - I think that's really all that they are.

 And my merchant who did not ninja loot did the same, and while he was not doing merchant RP, he was RPing with other players or he was dungeoning with other players, and he was negotiating with other players after the dungeons for the items he was interested in. I don't think that not ninja looting takes any time away from merchanting, and any time you spend getting the loot you are selling is time spent with other players doing a dungeon run, or negotiating about loot, which I think is even better than just having the merchant RP.

 And I don't think just because something does not "break anyone else's game," it is just fine and should not be improved. I would argue it does interfere with other players' ability to run a dungeon, for example, I have heard others complain that they can't find people to open locks for a dungeon run, and I think it has more to do with those with the ability already ninja looting most dungeons people visit to begin with instead of there simply not being people capable of opening locks around. And it is true that Dev team already took measures to balance out ninja looting, which says something in and of itself. Dev team already made many changes to balance out ninja looting as you pointed out, clearly showing that ninja looting had some problems that needed to be addressed, and I think there is still some room to improve. Not to mention, the proposed changes do not break anyone's game, inhibit their ability to do a dungeon, or stop them from acquiring an item.

[Night of Reod]

 Just because I don't ninja loot does not mean I never did ninja loot, nor does it make my argument void or invalid.

I believe it does. If someone comes to me IRL and starts voicing opinions or facts about hockey while he has no experience in hockey, his arguments and opinions are pretty void, since he doesn't know what he is talking about. To me, that's the same thing about ninjalooting here, as people who voice opinions against it are people who never/rarely do ninjalooting.

If I listen to two people giving different opinions about a subject, one that has multiple hours of experience in it, and one who doesn't, I know whom I would listen to, and know that is argument is worth more.

 I will simply repeat my previous point. Arguments and opinions stand on their own merit. If you disregard an opinion solely based on who voiced it, then that is bias.

[wildflame]

So you're saying you'll give the same weight to a professional doctor and a random guy off the street when they're telling you about a medical issue?

[Master Librarian]

These discussions really never change. Do you people honestly intend to have a semi-objective discussion on this by solely praising the steed you ride on? The way it seems to me here, this has degenerated into a conflict between those who partake in ninja looting, and those who do not. The truth at hand is, this topic doesn't and shouldn't even marginally concern your RP and how you approach it, because hey, that's the primary aspect of this server after all - roleplay.

[Iridni Ren]

Rogues and ninja looting was a very small aspect of this discussion, as it related to the topic of Rogue Stealth and Invisibility.

This is going pretty far off topic, but in a way it relates to rogues because rogues *tend* to be more solitary than many other classes--at least stealthy rogues.

I don't know that having solitary activities even on a server oriented toward interacting with other players *is* a bad feature. What do you do when you login and no one is around in your immediate area? A new player *has* to start out as solitary...and I think it's easier to approach another loner and try to strike something up than four or five people already doing their thing together.

If solitary activity is automatically bad, then why have a crafting system that almost everyone does in solitude because of its grindy nature?

The reason I pose these questions is the main argument here against ninja looting that needs refutation is whether it's against the ethos of the server or not.

Also, not everyone who arrives here will start out as a good roleplayer, nor will good roleplayers always be up for it. As fundamentally an introvert, I have to recharge from it from time to time with something more mindless and less challenging than human interaction It's nice to have that choice.

Not being a ninja looter, I tend to log out, but if everyone did that, it would hardly be *good* for the server.

[Dumas]

It’s a classic RP theme to have a thief or rogue like character sneak in somewhere and steal treasures. How many stories in literature and mythology feature such? Countless.

If you arbitrarily said to player “no, you can’t ninja-loot. Stealing may be a prime aspect of fantasy RP, but it’s off the table now”, it would be crushing to the spirit of RP.

[APorg]

And because most of the current merchants get their stock from ninja looting does not mean that it is what leads to merchant RP, as I said PC merchants who do not ninja loot exist and PC merchants exist in servers without ninja looting. I think what that point highlights, however, is that the current situation significantly incentivize the act of ninja looting over other options, especially for a merchant PC.

Part of the issue is the way some dungeons are designed. The Salt Mines are so difficult to do through regular means that it's simply not fun -- never mind cost-effective and rewarding materially -- to play through them even when you have a well-tuned party that knows exactly what they're doing so you don't get TPK'd; and even then, you can get through the whole dungeon and be rewarded with barely 1 or 2 items of decent gear. Or sometimes even just a load of vendor trash that you'd be disappoint at dungeons ten levels easier than that.

To get lucky and acquire the rare drops would take many dozens, if not hundreds, of hours, doing that dungeon again and again and again, week in and week out. This isn't something that most players who hold down jobs would want to invest to invest their time in.

To a lesser degree, this problem is present in all dungeons, with the added difficulty that, the more common or accessible or reputedly rewarding a dungeon is, the more likely it is to draw the locusts that will keep the spawn depressed.

So the problem isn't really that ninja-looting is too incentivsed; rather the problem is that loot is a poor incentive for doing dungeons, because any veteran adventurer knows you'll be lucky in the first place to get there when there's a good spawn, and then doubly lucky if anything actually decently drops. And all that for an order of magnitude more investment in time than the ninjalooter.

No, most people dungeon to get XP; anyone who's dungeoned a lot knows that good loot is sometimes a distant hope.

[Night of Reod]

So you're saying you'll give the same weight to a professional doctor and a random guy off the street when they're telling you about a medical issue?

 I am saying that I will listen to them both and consider their opinions on their own merit, because doctors are not exempt from being wrong even about medical issues, and random guy off the street is perfectly capable of making a valid point. Not to mention, a topic as specialized as medicine who people spend years and years studying for is not really an accurate comparison in this case. But, Master Librarian makes a valid point, the point of this topic is not to create a conflict between those who partake in ninja looting and those who do not. It is to propose some suggestions regarding certain elements within the game. Sadly, I see very few replies that actually refer back to the original suggestion, or make a suggestion of their own, which I encourage everyone to do. If there is a need to discuss ninja looting in greater detail, then that deserves its own topic, this topic is not intended to be a discussion solely on ninja looting and whether it is good or bad, nor does it attack anyone based on whether they ninja loot or not. So, I repeat, I invite everyone to discuss the topic at hand, make new suggestions or give constructive criticism on the suggestions already made, instead of distracting from those.

[Night of Reod]

Part of the issue is the way some dungeons are designed. The Salt Mines are so difficult to do through regular means that it's simply not fun -- never mind cost-effective and rewarding materially -- to play through them even when you have a well-tuned party that knows exactly what they're doing so you don't get TPK'd; and even then, you can get through the whole dungeon and be rewarded with barely 1 or 2 items of decent gear. Or sometimes even just a load of vendor trash that you'd be disappoint at dungeons ten levels easier than that.

To get lucky and acquire the rare drops would take many dozens, if not hundreds, of hours, doing that dungeon again and again and again, week in and week out. This isn't something that most players who hold down jobs would want to invest to invest their time in.

To a lesser degree, this problem is present in all dungeons, with the added difficulty that, the more common or accessible or reputedly rewarding a dungeon is, the more likely it is to draw the locusts that will keep the spawn depressed.

So the problem isn't really that ninja-looting is too incentivsed; rather the problem is that loot is a poor incentive for doing dungeons, because any veteran adventurer knows you'll be lucky in the first place to get there when there's a good spawn, and then doubly lucky if anything actually decently drops. And all that for an order of magnitude more investment in time than the ninjalooter.

No, most people dungeon to get XP; anyone who's dungeoned a lot knows that good loot is sometimes a distant hope.

 I agree with the point raised here, that regular dungeon runs are often not rewarding in terms of loot. However, I don't think that the current situation is because the developers want to force players to invest in a mindless grind for dozens or hundreds of hours, but because if you do not keep the amount of decent loot as low as it is now, then you will have new characters running around with high end gear in their inventories because of how common they can become due to ninja looting of high end content. And I think if the situation is changed, if high end content can't be ninja looted or can't be ninja looted as effectively, then the situation of loot tables can be improved and dungeon runs can be made more rewarding in terms of loot, and changes can be made to how spawns and loot work. As you point out, the current system incentivizes ninja looting, a solitary activity, and de-incentivizes running a dungeon, which I believe is a problem.

[Iridni Ren]

On-topic suggestions I like thus far:

Make lock picks usable only by those who have points in pick locks (it is a trained skill as I recall).

Treat invisibility like Greater Sanctuary when it comes to opening chests or removing items from them.

Give rogues their bonus class feats as in the original game.

Give rogues the opportunity to take a feat that grants one extra skill point per rogue level.

More rogue-specific gear is good, but!!

MAB may have already done that. And it seems as though I've read that the team doesn't like to introduce gear limited to one class.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

On-topic suggestions I like thus far:

Make lock picks usable only by those who have points in pick locks (it is a trained skill as I recall).

Treat invisibility like Greater Sanctuary when it comes to opening chests or removing items from them.

Give rogues their bonus class feats as in the original game.

Give rogues the opportunity to take a feat that grants one extra skill point per rogue level.

More rogue-specific gear is good, but!!

MAB may have already done that. And it seems as though I've read that the team doesn't like to introduce gear limited to one class.

I agree wholeheartedly with every single one of these suggestions and think that they would help address the issue at hand. Even though we got quite off topic throughout the course of this discussion, if a short list, a few, or even just one productive idea comes out of it in the end, then I would still consider that to be an overall productive discussion and I thank all who partook in it.

[McNastea]

Make lock picks usable only by those who have points in pick locks (it is a trained skill as I recall).

Anyone can put points in open lock, but anyone who isn't taking a rogue level to do so uses twice as many skill points for half the effect and cap at 11. People who aren't rogues but opening locks anyway have done this and so making lock picks usable only to those with points in the skill wouldn't really change anything. They'd have to be made rogue only to get the desired effect, unless I misunderstand the purpose of your suggestion.

[Iridni Ren]

Make lock picks usable only by those who have points in pick locks (it is a trained skill as I recall).

Anyone can put points in open lock, but anyone who isn't taking a rogue level to do so uses twice as many skill points for half the effect and cap at 11. People who aren't rogues but opening locks anyway have done this and so making lock picks usable only to those with points in the skill wouldn't really change anything. They'd have to be made rogue only to get the desired effect, unless I misunderstand the purpose of your suggestion.

I don't feel strongly about this, but my personal opinion is if you've devoted at least some points to lockpicking you should be able to use the picks. If it requires at least the investment of two points currently, then that's sufficient in my view.

I just don't think it's realistic that someone completely untrained in lockpicking would know how to use lockpicks.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Make lock picks usable only by those who have points in pick locks (it is a trained skill as I recall).

Anyone can put points in open lock, but anyone who isn't taking a rogue level to do so uses twice as many skill points for half the effect and cap at 11. People who aren't rogues but opening locks anyway have done this and so making lock picks usable only to those with points in the skill wouldn't really change anything. They'd have to be made rogue only to get the desired effect, unless I misunderstand the purpose of your suggestion.

I don't feel strongly about this, but my personal opinion is if you've devoted at least some points to lockpicking you should be able to use the picks. If it requires at least the investment of two points currently, then that's sufficient in my view.

I just don't think it's realistic that someone completely untrained in lockpicking would know how to use lockpicks.

You already can't open lock if you haven't spent skill point into it if I'm not mistaken.

[Iridni Ren]

Lockpicks get used up in the attempt, too, don't they?

I can't remember where the screenshot was posted of how much they cost now, but it seems as though an amateur lockpicker won't be using them very often because of its not being worth it.

[DM Cataclysm]

Yes, there are one time use lock picks in +1, 3, 6, 8, 10, and 12 varieties. The higher end ones are quite expensive and generally not worthwhile for an amateur lock picker to use to open a single chest.

[Philos]

For those that claim that ninja looting is risk free or does not promote RP I present exhibit A:



This screenshot was brought to you by bullshit reaver crits, janky invis mechanics, the letter R, and fellow ninja looters like you.

The story for any who don't mind some ooc smirks.

Spoiler: show

The famed baron de coursay messed up looting reaver caves. What he may not have counted on was another sneaky rogue trying to loot the caves some time after him and discovering his body. Anselme was raised, held and gun point and robbed...of everything. Literally just about his entire inventory stolen down to his clothes. That just goes to show just how awesome Dread is but also what can happen from "soloing" the server. A naked Anselme de Coursay was saved by a passing Paladin who kindly offered him something to cover himself- a dress.

One a serious note, isolation, being "alone", having your character be truly vulnerable- It is at these times some of the most impactful RP i've ever had has happened. I know this is true for several other people. While it is important to focus on co-operative roleplay as Soren has mentioned elsewhere, by being alone and vulnerable you can have a kind of roleplay that is often overlooked or seldom experienced. This vulnerability, either accepted or thrust upon you, it is important that it have a place here. Remember, even when you're by yourself, alone, isolated, someone is -always- watching.   

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Make lock picks usable only by those who have points in pick locks (it is a trained skill as I recall).

Anyone can put points in open lock, but anyone who isn't taking a rogue level to do so uses twice as many skill points for half the effect and cap at 11. People who aren't rogues but opening locks anyway have done this and so making lock picks usable only to those with points in the skill wouldn't really change anything. They'd have to be made rogue only to get the desired effect, unless I misunderstand the purpose of your suggestion.

I don't feel strongly about this, but my personal opinion is if you've devoted at least some points to lockpicking you should be able to use the picks. If it requires at least the investment of two points currently, then that's sufficient in my view.

I just don't think it's realistic that someone completely untrained in lockpicking would know how to use lockpicks.

You already can't open lock if you haven't spent skill point into it if I'm not mistaken.

This was the suggestion that was made earlier: Lock Pick tools would only be able to be used at a ratio of 1:2 with the chars unmodified ranks in Open Lock. If put into practice, non-Rogues would cap out at a maximum of +3 Lock picking tools (+5 since they can't put more than 11 ranks into Open Lock and +4/5 Lock picking tools dont currently exist on this server). Although Rogues won't be able to use the +12 Lock picking tools either in this situation. So either the +12 tools would need to be nerfed to +11 or something would have to be adjusted in that formula (like rounding up rather than down). Just for the record, I'm in favor of this idea although I don't think it's really going to have much of an impact.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

For those that claim that ninja looting is risk free or does not promote RP I present exhibit A:



This screenshot was brought to you by bullshit reaver crits, janky invis mechanics, the letter R, and fellow ninja looters like you.

The story for any who don't mind some ooc smirks.

Spoiler: show

The famed baron de coursay messed up looting reaver caves. What he may not have counted on was another sneaky rogue trying to loot the caves some time after him and discovering his body. Anselme was raised, held and gun point and robbed...of everything. Literally just about his entire inventory stolen down to his clothes. That just goes to show just how awesome Dread is but also what can happen from "soloing" the server. A naked Anselme de Coursay was saved by a passing Paladin who kindly offered him something to cover himself- a dress.

Haha good! I vote we shun the Paladin who clothed you and parade all ninja looters naked through the streets of every town in Barovia.

[Philos]

Haha good! I vote we shun the Paladin who clothed you and parade all ninja looters naked through the streets of every town in Barovia.

You kind of missed the point here. Think about what bad and interesting things can happen because you were alone. Think about what happens when a less than nice character finds your corpse and decides to use it for their puppet. Think about how a routine looting run could turn into an ambush as your rival places traps at the entrance to the dungeon or give See Invis to enemies that arn't "supposed" to have it. Isolation is a part of this setting. This is one way it happens.

[Pav]

dat me

[Philos]

On Thieves tools and Open Lock:

You have to have some points in Open Lock in order to be able to use Thieves Tools. The issue comes in where a single point investment gives access to the highest levels of gear, spells and consumables. Just because I took one point in UMD doesn't mean I should be able to cast from 9th level scrolls. I would like to see some gating on Thieves Tools. The +10 and +12 varieties, while expensive, drop far too often as loot in Har-akir. Honestly going through that domain nets me far more picks than I have to use.

I'm not really sure what the answer is. Maybe making knock unable to be self cast or only give a bonus up to current OL ranks. I don't think that's fair to magical types who seriously invest in the skill. Maybe I'd like to see more class locked gear to protect the rogue niche. Either making it harder for non-rogues to pick or increasing DCs to the point where it's far more beneficial to run a rogue in your party are some options as well. Current OL DCs are fairly low imo. So much so I cut the skill out of my build significantly. (15 ranks)

Consider mirroring with locks how traps works. After a certain DC (35 in the case of traps) only rogues are able to attempt. With that being said...

On traps:

Traps in dungeon's suck and I don't mean in a "they're difficult to deal with" way. I mean it in a "they're a six second delay that poses no risk." Trap locations need to be randomized to more locations to make dealing with them more of a priority and the area's of effect increase to affect the whole party. If you set that trap off, it should mean something. Think gas and electric traps, traps that trigger scripts, additional mobs, throw down dangerous spells like horrid whilting, incendiary cloud, mordenkien's disjunction.

Traps are great for PvP. Flat out. You'll kill who you're after. The issue is that's not very satisfying for your victim. I'd like to see more crafted traps that are able to hinder opponents so that RP following can be lengthened instead of "BZZZZT- you're dead." For some classes- it can be very hard to disable and so you can feel forced to try to drop them as quick as possible. If more options where available, Silencing Traps, Baleful Polymorph traps, Invis purge traps, the list goes on, you can tailor your appraoch to the target. We already have items in consumable form for these effects, it should be entirely possible to make traps from something like a "Witches Cauldron" or "Dust of Appearance."

[Iridni Ren]

This was the suggestion that was made earlier: Lock Pick tools would only be able to be used at a ratio of 1:2 with the chars unmodified ranks in Open Lock. If put into practice, non-Rogues would cap out at a maximum of +3 Lock picking tools (+5 since they can't put more than 11 ranks into Open Lock and +4/5 Lock picking tools dont currently exist on this server). Although Rogues won't be able to use the +12 Lock picking tools either in this situation. So either the +12 tools would need to be nerfed to +11 or something would have to be adjusted in that formula (like rounding up rather than down). Just for the record, I'm in favor of this idea although I don't think it's really going to have much of an impact.

Kind of complicated and would limit lockpicks' utility. For example, your hypothetical +11 lockpicks would need a 19th or 20th level rogue to use, right? How many of those play regularly?

1:1 maybe (to use a +12 the PC must have 12 ranks in open locks).

[Philos]

Kind of complicated and would limit lockpicks' utility. For example, your hypothetical +11 lockpicks would need a 19th or 20th level rogue to use, right? How many of those play regularly?

1:1 maybe (to use a +12 the PC must have 12 ranks in open locks).

The thing is Iridni, you don't need +12 picks for anything, they're excessive. The highest DC you'll likely run into is 52. This is what you'll find in Curst, Perdifus and the Ghastrian Chapel. Yes, there are a few higher ones out there, but they're either in Veidrava or plot related. You get a take 20 on Open Lock and with a +12 pick you only need 20 points between you skills, dex and buffs, Knock and gear. The highest tier is easily attainable with a very small character investment.