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Author Topic: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters  (Read 7195 times)

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In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« on: October 22, 2017, 12:44:11 AM »
So the recent Hak update saw a slew of new feats added to Barbarians, Monks, Bards, Clerics (as well as Paladins and Blackguards), Druids, and summoners (mostly necromancers though some more mundane ones were added too, iirc), all listed here.

Mundane characters, however, received very few boosts that are miniscule compared to their current status as the lowest of the ladder. All of those classes listed above (save for monk) are the absolute best at what they do, with clerics and bards being very close together in terms of functionality (I'd say the bard beats the cleric as of this hak, but I'm yet to test it in any convincing way). Wizards of course, will remain unchanged despite the new flavorful feats, and druids have climbed up to perhaps be the end-all of classes with some of their wildshape use abilities. In a sense, while these additions are very appreciated, and so is the work done by the team, I am questioning why we haven't added way more new stuff for the classes that need it most (and while we're at it, made the monk feats better than they are right now as Mordch describes here) and the necessity of the additions. While Back to the Wall, Scorpion's Resolve, are all very nice... it's just utterly underwhelming compared to 40 temporary hp and 20% increased movement speed, an AoE vamp regen, both for Undead Turners, a Charisma mod disabler to abilities on Bards' songs, further empowered bard and curse songs, sneak and crit immunity along with a generous amount of other things in the same ability for Druids, and 36 SR Barbarians.

I have nothing to suggest off the top of my head, and I will reply to this post with any additional thoughts and suggestions when I am not exhausted, but I would like the team to at least discuss the situation as it is and think of implementing new things for those classes in specific in the future. They should be, at the moment, the top priority for balancing, especially with recent changes to merchants butchering their viability further.

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2017, 12:56:24 AM »
I'm not sure you exactly understand the changes to Bard Song and Curse Song.

It's more of a rebalance, than a buff. AC was lowered, whilst saves were increased, and the perform requirement to hit the higher skill boosts was lowered. A new feat was added, Song of the Heart, which increases each ability by one for Bard Song only, whilst Curse Song remains the as it was (changed). This requires a feat on a class already starved for feats. And, you still have to account for the other new feats that people may wish to take. AC, regardless, is lower with the new song, even with Song of the Heart.

Curse Song now lowers skills and saves more for enemies, but AC less. AC now is lowered by three rather than five. This is significant, especially for a 3/4ths progression class.

Before, bards could shift AC by 7, increasing their AC by 5, and lowering enemy AB by 2. Now, they can move it by 6, and have to burn a feat to get it there. By the same token, rather than increasing their AB by an effective 7, they can increase it by an effective 6, again, requiring that they burn a feat.


As for the rest of the post, that's for someone else to answer, I think. I'm only clarifying that it wasn't a pure buff to bard song and curse song, but rather, bards lost AC, and effective AB (not to mention a feat), but gained skills and saves.


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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2017, 01:00:37 AM »
I'm not sure you exactly understand the changes to Bard Song and Curse Song.

It's more of a rebalance, than a buff. AC was lowered, whilst saves were increased, and the perform requirement to hit the higher skill boosts was lowered. A new feat was added, Song of the Heart, which increases each ability by one for Bard Song only, whilst Curse Song remains the as it was (changed). This requires a feat on a class already starved for feats. And, you still have to account for the other new feats that people may wish to take. AC, regardless, is lower with the new song, even with Song of the Heart.

Curse Song now lowers skills and saves more for enemies, but AC less. AC now is lowered by three rather than five. This is significant, especially for a 3/4ths progression class.

Before, bards could shift AC by 7, increasing their AC by 5, and lowering enemy AB by 2. Now, they can move it by 6, and have to burn a feat to get it there. By the same token, rather than increasing their AB by an effective 7, they can increase it by an effective 6, again, requiring that they burn a feat.


As for the rest of the post, that's for someone else to answer, I think. I'm only clarifying that it wasn't a pure buff to bard song and curse song, but rather, bards lost AC, and effective AB (not to mention a feat), but gained skills and saves.

I feel as if that is still very potent, combined with their other songs. Bards aren't very feat starved at all, in my experience, if you play it single-weapon. By 13 you have all your absolute necessities, which is solid, compared to my rogue ranger who needed 14 levels to have his essentials. I will concede that you know better about the class than I am, but I am unsure, still, if my point is wrong or diminished by this being the case - that mundanes needed love, and got very little.

SingASongOfDeath

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2017, 01:03:41 AM »
I'm not sure you exactly understand the changes to Bard Song and Curse Song.

It's more of a rebalance, than a buff. AC was lowered, whilst saves were increased, and the perform requirement to hit the higher skill boosts was lowered. A new feat was added, Song of the Heart, which increases each ability by one for Bard Song only, whilst Curse Song remains the as it was (changed). This requires a feat on a class already starved for feats. And, you still have to account for the other new feats that people may wish to take. AC, regardless, is lower with the new song, even with Song of the Heart.

Curse Song now lowers skills and saves more for enemies, but AC less. AC now is lowered by three rather than five. This is significant, especially for a 3/4ths progression class.

Before, bards could shift AC by 7, increasing their AC by 5, and lowering enemy AB by 2. Now, they can move it by 6, and have to burn a feat to get it there. By the same token, rather than increasing their AB by an effective 7, they can increase it by an effective 6, again, requiring that they burn a feat.


As for the rest of the post, that's for someone else to answer, I think. I'm only clarifying that it wasn't a pure buff to bard song and curse song, but rather, bards lost AC, and effective AB (not to mention a feat), but gained skills and saves.

I feel as if that is still very potent, combined with their other songs. Bards aren't very feat starved at all, in my experience, if you play it single-weapon. By 13 you have all your absolute necessities, which is solid, compared to my rogue ranger who needed 14 levels to have his essentials. I will concede that you know better about the class than I am, but I am unsure, still, if my point is wrong or diminished by this being the case - that mundanes needed love, and got very little.

Like I said, I'll leave that to players with more experience in other classes. I have them, but don't play them nearly so often, and haven't played them nearly as long.

It's powerful, sure. I'm only disagreeing that it's buffed in the latest update. Feat-starved, if you wish to take more of the new feats, or a skill focus or two in addition to those, or, if you're a dual-wielder, then you basically have zero free feats, unfortunately. I had to drop one from my character's build in order to make room for Song of the Heart, which was not pleasant but. . I made do.

EDIT:
I suppose for clarification, I'd point out I'm fine with Song in the current form, or the previous form. It was a lateral move, in my eyes, rather than a shift up or down, on the scale of power.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 01:05:59 AM by SingASongOfDeath »


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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 01:07:32 AM »
The skill foci and metamagics are part of the necessities, for me, and I included them in my 13 count up. The rest of the feats will have to be Song of the Heart, and maybe two of the new ones, and some saves. That'll fit very nicely in the 20 levels, although cutting it short.

As for it being a tweak and not a buff, I'll concede it, although I am not too convinced, and this bard feat conversation is a digression from the subject. We can discuss it in private tomorrow if you'd like.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 01:09:42 AM by Pav »

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 08:42:13 AM »
It's immensely hard to objectively determine balance in advance (even if most people usually don't hesitate having strong opinion on it) but most feats added were actually taken from from various official sources which is usually a good starting point. In the end though the only way of really telling if it's going to be balanced in our context is by letting it materialize for a bit and then evaluate. It's very likely that we will have to adjust some of the feats later but too much speculation at this point is more likely to be a waste of energy  that's much better spend on other things.

As to why some classes received more feats than others, it mainly comes down to what feats we could find that sounded interesting and plausible to implement right. Suggestions for future feats are always welcome though.

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 12:06:48 PM »
Suggestions for future feats are always welcome though.

How about a Dexterity to Damage feat, like this houserule one?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Weapon_Finesse_(3.5e_Feat)

I think this would help Dexterity builds, Rogues specifically, in eeking out a little bit of extra damage. The potential downside is it adds another benefit to Dexterity over Strength...but it requires investing in three feats to get so, that's moot as far as I'm concerned.

Also what about Penetrating Strike, which allows you to add half your sneak attack damage to your damage rolls vs normally immune targets as long as they're flanked? It's an ACF in 3.5 but could it be added as a toggled feat?
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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2017, 12:09:25 PM »
I'd like to say that I'm not ridiculing the team's efforts for it, if it comes off that way. But, still, the status of mundane classes was poor even before the update got inthe works. It's considered flavorful amongst some circles if you play one, which is the opposite of what it should be - mundane.

I would like to post up suggestions in this thread later on in the day regarding some changes that could be made to bring the two most underwhelming classes in line.

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2017, 12:23:19 PM »
Suggestions for future feats are always welcome though.

How about a Dexterity to Damage feat, like this houserule one?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Weapon_Finesse_(3.5e_Feat)

I think this would help Dexterity builds, Rogues specifically, in eeking out a little bit of extra damage. The potential downside is it adds another benefit to Dexterity over Strength...but it requires investing in three feats to get so, that's moot as far as I'm concerned.

Also what about Penetrating Strike, which allows you to add half your sneak attack damage to your damage rolls vs normally immune targets as long as they're flanked? It's an ACF in 3.5 but could it be added as a toggled feat?

Penetrating Strike would be ideal, (although a feat granting full Sneak Attack damage against otherwise immune creatures would be better).

The other feat doesn't help the Rogue class specifically, so I think it addresses the complaint here less.

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Ciaran999

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2017, 12:48:03 PM »
Suggestions for future feats are always welcome though.

How about a Dexterity to Damage feat, like this houserule one?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Weapon_Finesse_(3.5e_Feat)

I think this would help Dexterity builds, Rogues specifically, in eeking out a little bit of extra damage. The potential downside is it adds another benefit to Dexterity over Strength...but it requires investing in three feats to get so, that's moot as far as I'm concerned.

Also what about Penetrating Strike, which allows you to add half your sneak attack damage to your damage rolls vs normally immune targets as long as they're flanked? It's an ACF in 3.5 but could it be added as a toggled feat?

Penetrating Strike would be ideal, (although a feat granting full Sneak Attack damage against otherwise immune creatures would be better).

The other feat doesn't help the Rogue class specifically, so I think it addresses the complaint here less.

I'd be all for full Sneak Attack damage vs immune creatures, actually.

You've a point about Imp. Weapon Finesse but I still think since, at least in my experience, most Rogues wind up being Dex builds it'd benefit them more even if it wasn't a specific improvement to them.
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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2017, 12:59:15 PM »
Alas, and that's also why we didn't add many fighter feats, most combat stuff in NwN is hardcoded. We have more leeway with increased saves, special abilities, skill points, damage reduction/resistance, etc.

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 01:01:45 PM »
There's a few things on my mind that I could post on later this evening that I'm fairly certain avoid that problem, and while they might not necessarily be good, they'd be a nudge in the right direction.

As for Dex replacing Str as a damage modifier... No. Just... no. Rangers have a hard time doing damage if they're going for a dex dual wield build, if the ranger is pure (and doesn't have, say, the vampire template). If we give this as an option to a full BAB, d10 class with free dual wielding, it will be broken.

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 07:54:18 PM »
I hate to be "that guy," but I'm going to do it anyway... I'm all for buffing up the Rogue class and I definitely feel that they need something, but I'm opposed to one of these suggestions for sure, and feel hesitant towards the other as well.

Dex as damage modifier...? I'm sorry, but for me this is an automatic no. Given the Parry system in place on this server, the increased max Dex modifier of many armor types, and the existence of weapon finesse, strength already has a limited role in character builds (from a mechanical standpoint ). Essentially the benefits of strength for Dex based chars is carrying consumables and damage modifiers. Allowing dexterity as a damage modifier is going to create a larger gap in strength vs dexterity based combat characters. And as previously mentioned by Pav, there are other classes in play here, who would benefit immensely (more than I feel is balanced) from an improved weapon finesse feat.

As for the suggestion with sneak attacks... half damage I could accept with some hesitation, but full damage is an absolute no for me. I like that some monsters are immune to sneak attacks, (I like it when I'm playing on my Rogue PC too), because it's one of the factors that really adds variability to many of the monsters on this server, and one of the things that I feel helps keep the Rogue Class in check. Full damage sneak attacks against everything... High level Rogues just do too much damage for that to even be on the table in my opinion. I recognize that the original post suggestion was only for half damage against these opponents though, and at least in my opinion that is a reasonable enough suggestion to be discussed by the powers that be.

I'm all for adding to the Rogue class, but I'm just not sure that these are the best solutions. Alas, I have no better suggestions myself. Again, I hate to be "that guy" saying "no, these ideas won't work," knowing full and well that I have no better ideas myself, but that's where I'm at...Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than myself will come up with the perfect solution for what I agree is currently an underpowered class.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 08:05:50 PM by HopeIsTheCarrot »

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2017, 08:44:52 PM »
Well, my own opinion is that people are really making "mundanes" sound a lot worse off than they really are, in my experience anyway. I played a rogue/fighter for years, with a heavy rogue lean, and am playing a rogue/fighter now with a heavy fighter lean. I'm also playing a ranger, bard, paladin and wizard; all of them between 12-17, just to point out that I have experience with many of these classes for my own comparison.

The idea that a rogue/fighter is obsolete kinda tickles me. I've never felt, and currently don't either, handicapped compared to other classes I'm playing. Each of them has their own strengths, and the draw of a rogue/fighter that I have and always will love is their ability to do almost everything and not be absolutely screwed if/when they find themselves with no magic ready or wards in place. Also, someone mentioned the other day that locks and traps are better handled by a wizard, but only a rogue can disable traps above DC 35, of which there are many.

UMD checks are higher, but not impossible. Scrolls are more expensive which stinks, but I've made my point on discord at least that I think circle 3 and lower should be standardized a bit lower while higher level scrolls don't necessarily need to be cheap. They don't absolutely -need- them, however, they are simply augmented by them. I can't begin to guess at how many millions or tens of millions I spent on scrolls on mine, which imo is a good thing - it was one hell of a gold sink. If the idea is to keep the gold sink while preventing someone from obtaining bags of scrolls then fine. Personally, I feel that will simply polarize things where anyone capable will continue to do so while others will struggle just to have a few. Probably not the intended effect but one I think will occur.

Regardless, a good rogue/fighter in a group can put wards to exceptional use. It's a build that takes a little more time than others to reach it's full potential, especially with a heavy rogue leaning, but I've gotten to level 20 and never felt an ounce of remorse at having played the combo. Currently even on my new one at lower levels I'm finding them to be stronger than I remember.

Dex modifier adding STR would be OP as hell, but as I understand it that's not even up for discussion due to system limitations. While I don't feel anything really -needs- to be done for rogues, if anything were I think giving them more feats would be a viable option. Something I've argued against in the past, simply because I feel like the trade off for taking rogue levels is gaining a huge number of skill points and not having to cross train almost anything, but lacking in the feats department. A balance that seems fair and works to me. If, however, people are so certain that rogues need love - more feats would help. It would mean they could take more saving throw feats more easily, or more skill focuses, or pick from any of the newer mutli-class feats of which many would help a rogue or a fighter a great deal considering Will is a glaring weakness in both classes.

Giving fighters more skill points and/or adding some skills to their class list could help them also. Both options work within the fact that they are combat system oriented, which can't be altered because game engine, while giving them some increase in power. Which again, I think is being overstated by many, but those would be doable.
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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2017, 09:04:26 PM »
I think the main point that came up during a discussion of this topic on Discord was that rogues shouldn't be relying on scrolls so much. If I'm not mistaken, the issue is that the gear available is unbalanced, favoring the detection skills. All they really need to do is either nerf the detection gear a bit or improve stealth gear to counter it. I've played quite a few rogues and I never relied on scrolls myself, and never had a huge amount of trouble sneaking up on people. Some would detect me, of course, but generally I could use the environment to my advantage and pop out of stealth next to a group of people to startle them.

This is just my opinion, but I find the idea of rogues using scrolls constantly kinda gamey. I get that it's a viable tactic, but I don't feel like that should be the go-to thing. To me rogues aren't pseudo-wizards. They're such a versatile class that you can build so many different types of characters on the skills they have available to them. Rather than reversing the change to the costs of scrolls, I'd rather see other ways to make stealthing more balanced either by providing new and improved gear selections or adding more feats to enhance those skills. Alternatively, you could have environmental conditions boost your sneaking abilities but since it already lowers detection skills pretty efficiently, I'm not sure that's the way to go. Though I suppose you could possibly make feats that take advantage of the environment along the lines of "When in darkness, you gain a +5 to your Hide skill."
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 09:08:19 PM by Jeebs »

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2017, 09:12:15 PM »
To me rogues aren't pseudo-wizards.

I think this is the best thing I've read so far, on the topic.

That, I believe, is the reason for the change, entirely. Too often, rogues became just that, and while this doesn't inhibit their ability, it makes it less commonplace.

Gear changes, or perhaps, environmental changes, as you suggested, would be a better option than returning to scrolls, if change is needed.


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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2017, 09:21:39 PM »

UMD checks are higher, but not impossible. Scrolls are more expensive which stinks, but I've made my point on discord at least that I think circle 3 and lower should be standardized a bit lower while higher level scrolls don't necessarily need to be cheap. They don't absolutely -need- them, however, they are simply augmented by them.

I think I'd be interested in you trying to ninja dungeons that's anything higher than the Morninglord temple without scrolls on a rogue/fighter. If you're able to pull it off, I'd also be interested in seeing what kind of gear you have because I'm willing to bet you have some grandfathered gear on your character.

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2017, 09:36:57 PM »
A few things on that note. It's important to keep in mind that here scrolls caster level are almost always (maybe always) sold at the level the spell can be learned. This means the duration is low and they can be dispelled by a soft breeze. Even before doubling scroll prices it was prohibitively expensive and almost never cost effective to self and party buff for a fight as a rogue. Enter higher level dungeons and it's even worse, when dispels are handed out like candy. They work in a pinch, but a rogue -never- replaces a wizard.

Now, I agree that rogues are far more versatile than scroll use, but I do not believe that fact can make your own preference of not using them relevant when it comes to the discussion of balance. They can be many things, and one of the many things is that they take the tools of almost every other class and put them to their own use. Scrolls, magic items, even spells - enough UMD can make a rogue holding a weapon with Holy Avenger get the same benefits a paladin does. It is a trademark of the class, among other things. While it's not necessary to every concept it is important and greatly effected by altering the cost of scrolls, which not only makes them less available through buying, but less common through drops (an items value determines where and how often it drops).

Since I never really intended to get that deep in the scroll debate I'll end it by repeating, I DO NOT BELIEVE IT'S A HORRIBLE THING. Gold sinks = good. My own rogue would have been walking around with tens of millions of gold if I didn't have scrolls to spend gold on so often, and that means I would have been buying all the cool stuff at auctions just for lack of anything better to spend it on. If possible, however, reducing the cost of the lowest level scrolls would be a good idea (lvl 3 and under). What honestly prompted this is just that I keep seeing people bring up that rogues shouldn't replace wizards and I just can't stress to you all enough how wrong you are to think that they ever will or could.
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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2017, 09:40:42 PM »

UMD checks are higher, but not impossible. Scrolls are more expensive which stinks, but I've made my point on discord at least that I think circle 3 and lower should be standardized a bit lower while higher level scrolls don't necessarily need to be cheap. They don't absolutely -need- them, however, they are simply augmented by them.

I think I'd be interested in you trying to ninja dungeons that's anything higher than the Morninglord temple without scrolls on a rogue/fighter. If you're able to pull it off, I'd also be interested in seeing what kind of gear you have because I'm willing to bet you have some grandfathered gear on your character.

I smash and grab looted dungeons with invis only on Dante for years, but I think that's a bit beside the point isn't it? I did say, in the very quote you posted, that lvl 3 and lower scrolls should be cheaper than the double value they received. That would include light step, camo and one with the land at the very least.
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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2017, 11:25:31 PM »
Not especially relevant to the topic, but I have to ask because I'm curious: are gold sinks really necessary? If you have tens of millions of gold, why bother looting things at all unless you find something you need or really awesome? I understand that one of the reasons for running a dungeon beyond looting is for the XP, and I've done that before too and just left most if not all of the loot behind for others to collect later because I didn't need anything I found.

I should point out that I virtually never bother with dungeoning and that my characters rarely ever have more than a 1000 gp to their names, not because I'm incapable of gathering large sums of money but more so that I just never really found I needed it for how I role-play. For this reason, the changes that have upset so many people don't affect me at all. I understand the point that scrolls are very useful to rogues and I didn't mean to imply they should never use them at all. I just feel that if there were other options to make stealthing more viable (since that seems to be the main thing people were relying on scrolls for) then even if those scrolls are more rare, then it makes them that much more valuable and you're more likely to save them for a dire situation than use them regularly.

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2017, 11:39:35 PM »
Lol, well we could dive super deep down that rabbit hole but it is a bit off topic.

As for the reasoning, I think the answer is different for anyone given character. Not all my characters amass wealth, the ones who do are just driven to while others may in fact just pass something up and be content with what they have.

As for the necessity of gold sinks in general I would say yes they are, because some characters do amass wealth. Because there is no limit to the amount of gold that can be in circulation if there is no gold sink prices can inflate drastically. That or a select few hang on to far more wealth than anyone else could compete with and come around during auction time buying all the fun stuff you wish you could have that they just sort of fancy because they have nothing else to do with their gold except buy herbs from all the new characters.

Besides scrolls there have been quite a few other gold sinks that I found quite enjoyable. Buying land, citizenship etc. Buying scrolls just happens to be a gold sink that you can invest in heavily again and again and get some mechanical value rather than rp. Both are good in their own right, I think it's important to have sinks that fall in to both categories.
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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2017, 11:40:24 PM »
I don't mind scrolls being a gold sink. They were before. That's were most of my income went.

They don't need to be a dammed black hole though.

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2017, 11:51:34 PM »
Not really the thread for scrolls, gold sinks, etc. :)

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Alas, and that's also why we didn't add many fighter feats, most combat stuff in NwN is hardcoded. We have more leeway with increased saves, special abilities, skill points, damage reduction/resistance, etc.

Since Appraise and UMD (two class skills for rogues) became less useful because of the hak, how about a rogue-exclusive feat that gives rogues one extra skill point per level?

Rogues could better do what they're supposed to be best at and not be "pseudo-wizards."

Although, magic users with certain spells still get to be pseudo-rogues :P

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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2017, 12:07:37 AM »
Although, magic users with certain spells still get to be pseudo-rogues :P


 :lol:


It's not a bad idea, I kinda like it in fact. I think it would be better to just -give- them that extra point per level. As I said earlier, the trade with rogues is that you get more skill points but less feats. Throwing a new feat in there that they can optionally take as opposed to something else more necessary, when they already have so few to pick from, to give them something they already gain a lot of, doesn't seem as much like a buff as a tease to me. Of course, that's not to say it wouldn't ever be taken, there are instances where it would. But it doesn't address the class as a whole as much as a few people who find they have an extra feat to spend. My understanding is that people think the class as a whole is lacking.
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Re: In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2017, 12:22:32 AM »
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Throwing a new feat in there that they can optionally take as opposed to something else more necessary, when they already have so few to pick from, to give them something they already gain a lot of, doesn't seem as much like a buff as a tease to me

I'm surprised at this direction of criticism because I was worried the feat would be considered too powerful, lol.

Because lots of general feats let you get +4 skill points in only one or two (+2 in each) categories. That means we could consider a feat worth 4 skill points. This feat could be worth as many as 20 skill points.

You could further limit it so the skill point was gained only when taking rogue levels--which would also keep PCs who dip rogue from receiving as much benefit as a pure rogue would.


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