In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters

[IrishIron]

I believe where Night of Reod gets that view, as I share it, is from pnp. Fighter was basically there so you could pick up the very demanding prestige classes that required a large number of feats. It screams multiclass. And as far as what people use to get use to the game comment. As a long time dm for nearly two decades it is the most common thing told to new players. "Roll up a fighter and test the game out." On a pnp character sheet it's just easy to keep track of. Attack Bonus, damage, armor class and hit points are all your fighter really has to worry about in regards to this pnp dnd sheet.

[booksarefun666]

As much as I personally can respect the idea of wizards and clerics being strong because the former bends space and time and the later has the literal blessing of the gods, they're basically given insane benefits that make one wonder why you wouldn't roll a cleric or wizard.

E.G.,

A wizard can and typically does cross-class open lock because of all the +OL gear and make the rogue irrelevant.
A cleric can have their wine barrel full and their wife drunk by having chitin armor's light weight and still having enchanted-gear levels of AC from magic vestements.
Both clerics and wizards are better stealthers because of gsanc. It lasts long and the only drawback is hearing people get angry at you for hostiling the whole server.
Both clerics and wizards do not have to deal with a whole lot of magic, limited-durability items and can operate on a barebone kit. They essentially have spells/days items when no one else can have one for even the most basic of spells.
Rogues can try to be the equivalent of gsanc in their stealth but that takes time, dedication, and some connections to get geared with good loot. This is possibly the most frustrating part of this sentence and that's because the people that deny the effort and time it takes to get decent stealth levels typically don't play dex rogues. The only rare detect piece is ring of seeing eye, but the only people that bother with spot typically have regular access to true sight and won't get blindsided by a simple invis spell. Otherwise, you have easy to get listen gear.
A cleric does not need insane saves (they have them anyway) because they have outright immunity with death ward and they can cast it as much as they like.
With extended duration, this also lasts quite a long time. The only drawback is you look like a knob when you're constantly rebuffing.

That isn't to say they can't both be beaten, but when you play a 'mundane' you've your work cut out for you when it comes to taking down anyone in these two classes. With no suitable magic gear to counter this,  you're really left to fry if you screw up in the slightest. Take for example acid sheathe, the biggest acid resist piece I know of is a 10/ acid piece and you still fry pretty hard because acid sheathe at level 20 is 1d6 + 40. I use the highest example because the people that are most apt to PvP are specialized wizards/clerics that have managed to keep low long enough.

I don't pick on paladins because they're held to an absurd standard morality-wise. I'm content with them.

I've played a Vallaki guard for quite some time and I've seen a lot of examples of where a bard/fighter just simply gets left behind in the dirt. I think the most absurd example was waiting for a cleric to get out of gsanc after cornering them in a building and trying to arrest them. I've also seen a guard get snuffed out with a DC 30 FoD like it was nothing, too, and you simply can't hedge against that without gear.

When you have a terrible loot table you have terrible mundane characters. It's as simple as that, I'm afraid. You can keep adding feats but eventually there'll be too many mandatory feats and nobody will get them all. I like passives, but I do need some gear to help patch up my weaknesses.

That said I love scorpion's resolve. We really needed some of these feats the dev team introduced.

[Iridni Ren]

Please everyone let's keep this topic about the new feats.

[booksarefun666]

Please everyone let's keep this topic about the new feats.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

From a pnp standpoint I can see where you are coming from with that. However, even though Fighter functions very well as a pnp "training wheels" class for new players, I certainly don't feel that is the apex of all that the Fighter class was intended to be, even in just a pnp context. When we move away from pnp and into NWN/PotM, I find that argument to be even less viable. I am all for providing an additional incentive to staying pure fighter, such as a 17th Fighter equivalent to Ranger HiPS, such as a massive crit feat.

[booksarefun666]

From a pnp standpoint I can see where you are coming from with that. However, even though Fighter functions very well as a pnp "training wheels" class for new players, I certainly don't feel that is the apex of all that the Fighter class was intended to be, even in just a pnp context. When we move away from pnp and into NWN/PotM, I find that argument to be even less viable. I am all for providing an additional incentive to staying pure fighter, such as a 17th Fighter equivalent to Ranger HiPS, such as a massive crit feat.

That's essentially is the thing. I don't think 3.0e was designed with the idea of persistent worlds in mind that has complex inter-player politics that eventually boil over into often lop-sided fights. It was designed with a group of buddies in mind and a DM present, with a challenge rating in mind. PnP is a good reference point but it's always best to remember what the source was intended for when refering to it for class balance.

[Pav]

Okay so here are my broad suggestions, no specifics yet as I have been browsing all my 3.x books for suitable additions that could work within the NWN engine. Obviously, at this point, this would be for the next Hak update, and arguing the power of the new added feats is moot because they are extremely powerful, and the wait and see attitude is plain wrong when we look at a game construed almost entirely by numbers.

For Fighters:

The introduction of Combat Stances, UNIQUE to the class, not unlike Expertise or Power Attack. What these could be would vary, as there's only a few in 3.x supplements as far as I could tell.

At levels 11 and 16, fighters should get a FREE UNIQUE feat, set in stone as an integral part of the class. Not something like a flat addition to damage, overwhelming crit or the like, but something for utility. Daily powers, possibly.

For Rogues:

I'll admit I've given this more thought because it's easier to come up with than Fighters, especially with what we're provided in 3.x.

Splitting Rogue feat selection to level 6, and level 16. The level 6 ones would be the weaker, less substantial additions from the current list, and the level 16 ones would be the better ones. To both lists I would recommend adding new feats to fit their power level, and, just a brief example, what this would look like with what we currently have and what I think is balanced -

Level 6 selection,
Slippery Mind
Opportunist
Skill Mastery

Level 16 selection,
Defensive Roll
Crippling Strike
Improved Evasion

Thinking of perhaps a couple of more feats to add to each list should be a balancing act, and perhaps encourage pure Rogues. I would go a step further and add a level 11 list, as well as the ability to take a rogue bonus feat at every normal level past 15, but I doubt that'd be received well (for whatever reason, as most of the other classes currently around have more ridiculous bonuses than any of those feats can ever count for).

Feedback would be welcome to this specific post.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Obviously, at this point, this would be for the next Hak update, and arguing the power of the new added feats is moot because they are extremely powerful, and the wait and see attitude is plain wrong when we look at a game construed almost entirely by numbers.

The game may be constructed almost entirely by numbers, but the humans who play it are far less predictable. Gameplay balance is an extremely complicated concept, even aside from the factor of human error. No one person can accurately determine the current balance amongst the classes represented in this server. Human perception, reception, and reaction has a profound impact on gameplay balance and overall server class spread. And this very human aspect of the server is not so easily predicted at the forefront of change, such as those made in this Hak update. For that reason, we have a dedicated and hard working team of DMs, Developers, Community Council, and opinionated players that work collaboratively to develop an informed and diverse opinion on gameplay balance. So, I think the wait and see mentality is completely viable and even the most effective means of evaluating the impact of this Hak Update and its new feats.

With that in mind, I like these Feat suggestions and think they should certainly be on the table of discussion for the next Hak Update.

[Pav]

Obviously, at this point, this would be for the next Hak update, and arguing the power of the new added feats is moot because they are extremely powerful, and the wait and see attitude is plain wrong when we look at a game construed almost entirely by numbers.

The game may be constructed almost entirely by numbers, but the humans who play it are far less predictable. Gameplay balance is an extremely complicated concept, even aside from the factor of human error. No one person can accurately determine the current balance amongst the classes represented in this server. Human perception, reception, and reaction has a profound impact on gameplay balance and overall server class spread. And this very human aspect of the server is not so easily predicted at the forefront of change, such as those made in this Hak update. For that reason, we have a dedicated and hard working team of DMs, Developers, Community Council, and opinionated players that work collaboratively to develop an informed and diverse opinion on gameplay balance. So, I think the wait and see mentality is completely viable and even the most effective means of evaluating the impact of this Hak Update and its new feats.

Yes. A player who is not good at the game will not make much use of the good parts of their class, you're right.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Nor will any two players play the same class in exactly the same way. Nor will they prioritize every asset of every class in exactly the same order. Nor will they value every character strength in exactly the same way.

[Night of Reod]

That's essentially is the thing. I don't think 3.0e was designed with the idea of persistent worlds in mind that has complex inter-player politics that eventually boil over into often lop-sided fights. It was designed with a group of buddies in mind and a DM present, with a challenge rating in mind. PnP is a good reference point but it's always best to remember what the source was intended for when refering to it for class balance.

 That is indeed true, but I don't think that takes away from what the Fighter class accomplishes within the game. It still has its multiclassing function in place, it still serves as a good starting class for someone who is new to the game, and it accomplishes its niche very well, and the changes to the ranger and barbarian classes make it so you have even better options to multiclass into than you do in base NWN.

 Someone also mentioned that epic feats such as devastating critical and high end magical equipment are missing from the server, which is indeed true, but those feats and those equipment are not available only to pure fighters either. You could very well make a character who has no fighter levels but can take full advantage of those, and you could splash in some fighter levels if you need the extra feats to get those feats and other feats you want, which brings us back to fighter's utility for multiclassing. Making a non-caster Fighter/Rogue or Fighter/Rogue/Ranger gives you a mundane character that is perfectly viable for all stages of the game, without any sort of application requirement or need for any specific kind of roleplaying alteration like the Paladin class. That is what the class is balanced around already. That is why Fighters get access to weapon specialization at level 4 and not later down to road, because you can get your 4th attack on an otherwise 3/4 BAB growth character with 4 levels in fighter or some other 1 BAB growth character. I think the elements that highlight why fighter is intended as a starting class, and a class for multiclassing for more experienced players, are there and quite visible.