Author Topic: Scroll Price Increases  (Read 4057 times)

Dante101

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Scroll Price Increases
« on: October 21, 2017, 06:38:27 PM »
This was brought up in another thread but figure it deserves it's own topic for discussion. There has been a good bit of heated discussion on the discord server about the 100% increase to the cost of scrolls at all merchants. I'm curious to hear the reasoning behind it (especially since it was coupled with the Bleustein merchant nerf), and I think it's valuable for people to be given the ability to write out their thoughts in an environment like the forums where there isn't the pressure to respond immediately.

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 06:46:06 PM »
I wasn't involved with the scroll changes, so I can't speak to that. But the Blaustein merchant thing isn't new. He was missing a setting, but that was corrected... jeez, six months ago? I don't think that's a new thing, and it's certainly not connected to the other matter.
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Dante101

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 06:49:59 PM »
Fair enough. Personally I rarely utilized the Blaustein merchants, but I feel like this scroll change is a very large leap attempting to tackle a specific problem.  My concern is that the logic behind it and the problem it's attempting to fix hasn't been communicated to this point.

I know the change is fresh and new, but clarity is greatly appreciated.

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2017, 07:01:05 PM »
I believe the connection with the blaustein merchant is that it is 2 nerfs that are connected. One side the buying prices double, and on the other side the selling prices go down half, effectively making it 4x more expensive to buy scrolls.

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2017, 08:43:51 PM »
It is supposed to be a low magic world where scrolls are difficult to come by in secreted locations... Just my take on it.
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Pav

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2017, 08:54:26 PM »
It is supposed to be a low magic world where scrolls are difficult to come by in secreted locations... Just my take on it.

OK, and yet caster classes cast all of those magic spells without any issue whatsoever. The low magic world argument is invalid when you allow your level cap above 10.

My thoughts on this topic need to be constructed more thoroughly, so I'll be back later with my take on it, and I doubt many will be surprised on how strongly I feel about this subject.

booksarefun666

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2017, 08:59:05 PM »
It is supposed to be a low magic world where scrolls are difficult to come by in secreted locations... Just my take on it.

Agreed. Lets put wizards, paladins, bards, and clerics behind applications.

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2017, 09:02:22 PM »
"Low magic" has nothing to do with level (maybe?), but the abundance of magical items and magic itself (not sure on the latter but probably correct). You can be level 30 but the best weapon you can get in the persistent world you play on at the time is a +2 AB longsword with like, an extra one slashing damage, and that's more than likely "low magic."

That said, Ravenloft has always been a high magic setting from what I understand in the source books. However, there is a negative to playing either side of the spectrum. I might kick up a lot of dust saying this, but the risks for caster types seems to thin out more and more as time passes here. That's just my opinion though (and usually wrong lol).

Honestly, the more difficult it becomes for mundanes to fend off their not so mundane counterparts, the less risks there are in that regard. Mundanes will be far less better equipped, but a lot of it still comes down to the situation at hand. RP often trumps any mechanical advantage in the moment, but there are those times where fighting breaks out, and the mundane having to pay 100% more for scrolls may just not have had enough to buy that one thing to save his poor arse. And some of the prices per scroll are already pretty ridiculous for those that don't have reliable means of making coin, or the inability to ninja loot at will.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 09:24:32 PM by Sword »
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Pav

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2017, 09:07:02 PM »
"Low magic" has nothing to do with level, but the abundance of magical items and magic itself (not sure on the latter but probably correct). You can be level 30 but the best weapon you can get in the persistent world you play on at the time is a +2 AB longsword with like, an extra one slashing damage, and that's more than likely "low magic."

I flat out disagree. If you can cast high level spells (timestop, g-sanc, et cetera), frequently and without complication, that is also a definition of high magic. You can't have a +1 AB item be the end of all loot, have level 9 spells available, and call it low magic. That is simply illogical.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 09:08:57 PM by Pav »

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 09:09:20 PM »
Magical equipment still factors into that equation. But all right, I'm wrong there.
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Pav

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2017, 09:11:56 PM »
Magical equipment still factors into that equation. But all right, I'm wrong there.

You're right, and we have both of them.

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2017, 09:15:47 PM »
From my admittedly limited knowledge of Barovian lore, it seems unlikely that Strahd would permit high level casters (arcane and divine in nature) or an abundance of scrolls to remain in his realm, (unless of course the scrolls remained in his castle). Both seem a little out of place in my perception of Barovia.

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2017, 09:22:57 PM »
I flat out disagree. If you can cast high level spells (timestop, g-sanc, et cetera), frequently and without complication, that is also a definition of high magic.

You may disagree, but if you search the forums for past discussions on this topic, you find it's not the definition the admin and DMs share with you. The low/high magic divide is not about power, but about whether the average peasant sees it commonly. Magic in Ravenloft has never been particularly weak.

But don't take my word for it, as I said, this point is often repeated.
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Pav

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2017, 09:24:05 PM »
Sure, aprog, in terms of roleplay that is not wrong at all. Mechanically speaking, however, this is a high magic server. Not the highest, but high.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2017, 10:50:26 PM »
I believe the connection with the blaustein merchant is that it is 2 nerfs that are connected. One side the buying prices double, and on the other side the selling prices go down half, effectively making it 4x more expensive to buy scrolls.

Yes, and the same classes (rogues and bards) tend to have both good UMD and appraise. So, rogues (who didn't receive anything in this hak from what I hear) got a pretty good kick in the keester. Were they considered OP before? Rogues?

As far as whether this is a low-magic/high-magic server, well...

Scrolls are one-shot items. I don't see how you can have the spells at all and then say the scrolls violate the "low magic concept." If a wizard or sorcerer can cast them every day multiple times, then that has to be "higher magic" than the one-shot scroll.

I don't understand the nuances of this server anywhere near the degree most of you do. But I respect Pav's opinion and thoughtfulness about such matters.

Consistently in chat I've been told that Wizards are the strongest class. How does this change not increase the disparity between what would seem to be one of the weakest classes (rogues) and wizards?

Since the hak I've also heard several players talking about how they were going to dust this PC off or roll up [insert class here]. I've not heard anyone say she wanted to roll up a rogue now.

I do agree money is currently almost worthless. My PC almost never takes a share of anything because of her faith, yet she never suffers any scarcity. At least not if you're in a faction. Other PCs give her money, varnishes, potions, herbs, and there's not any equipment she wants to buy because she's always weighed down anyway.

If these changes are aimed at fixing that, however, they do not seem to hit all PCs equally.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 11:04:26 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2017, 11:17:28 PM »
I believe the connection with the blaustein merchant is that it is 2 nerfs that are connected. One side the buying prices double, and on the other side the selling prices go down half, effectively making it 4x more expensive to buy scrolls.

Yes, and the same classes (rogues and bards) tend to have both good UMD and appraise. So, rogues (who didn't receive anything in this hak from what I hear) got a pretty good kick in the keester. Were they considered OP before? Rogues?

As far as whether this is a low-magic/high-magic server, well...

Scrolls are one-shot items. I don't see how you can have the spells at all and then say the scrolls violate the "low magic concept." If a wizard or sorcerer can cast them every day multiple times, then that has to be "higher magic" than the one-shot scroll.

Consistently in chat I've been told that Wizards are the strongest class. How does this change not increase the disparity between what would seem to be one of the weakest classes (rogues) and wizards?

Since the hak I've also heard several players talking about how they were going to dust this PC off or roll up [insert class here]. I've not heard anyone say she wanted to roll up a rogue now.

I do agree money is currently almost worthless. My PC almost never takes a share of anything because of her faith, yet she never suffers any scarcity. At least not if you're in a faction. Other PCs give her money, varnishes, potions, herbs, and there's not any equipment she wants to buy because she's always weighed down anyway.

If these changes are aimed at fixing that, however, they do not seem to hit all PCs equally.

I think this is a very strong presentation of an argument that I agree whole-heartedly with.
1. If there is an issue with the "high magic" status of this server, I don't see scrolls as being the issue either. I think this server has done a very good job of providing a consistent balance between various classes, but Rogues remain one of the weakest classes on the server in my opinion, largely due to the nature of Ravenloft as a setting rampant with undead.
2. I've also found money to be almost useless, in fact if it weighed anything I probably wouldn't even keep most of it. So I am all for any solution aimed at addressing that issue. However, I agree that this fix will not affect all characters equally. And if there was a class of characters that needed the hit the least, I have to think rogues are pretty high up on that list.


Pav

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2017, 12:15:52 AM »
Alright, I am going to put down my thoughts, and by extension some of my thoughts on the state of mundane classes, which has been directly affected by this. I will preface this by saying that I play this server day-in and day-out, and will go to the lengths of calling myself proficient with the mechanics and balance of the module as it stands in many respects. I highly appreciate the work the Developers put down for the Hak update, bringing us all this delightful new content, and this may seem a bit harsh or unfair to some of you, but it needs to be said.

You are correct in saying gold is currently weightless and worthless. There is no denying this. Personally, I do not enjoy grinding for it, and I do not seek it out at all, not even on PCs that are supposedly merchants. My characters earn money purely through roleplay, and even then it's large quantities only once in a while, so I'm set in that regard.

However, to perform what was once the basic function of my class, that is, to stealth (and I am using this as a personal example because I do not self-buff with scrolls that often), I will now have to spend 24k gp to do that for a week, casually, maybe an hour or two every 2 days. That's a huge amount of money, and I would argue that 12k was too much for that same amount of scrolls to begin with, but I understand that may appear as biased so I will not. Claims that this is a crutch are fairly unsubstantiated and unrealistic. "Play a Ranger and use those spells instead!" is not a viable argument, because it further degrades the Rogue into uselessness. Ranger already outshined it in almost every department, including damage (which is a Rogue's primary appeal alongside skills[!!!]), as did Bard, the other stealth-oriented class that has a stealth spell, albeit just one. There is at the moment no sense in playing a rogue, because everyone else does what you do better. Traps and locks? Wizard. Stealthing and damage? Ranger and Bard! This is made all the truer for the latter with all those fancy new feats Bards have gotten in the Hak update, which is another point I'd like to touch on, perhaps on a different thread (on how the most broken classes currently on the server were buffed further for absolutely no reason).

Returning to my statement about 24k gp, this is further made ridiculous by the new changes to merchants, potentially ruining returns by 50% to 75% from dungeoning/ninjalooting. Not only does this mean mundanes will have to fight four times as hard to get money for gear that they are 100% dependent on, they will then have to grind to do it four times as much (if I hadn't made my point clear yet) to gather the money for ONE USE, WITH ARCANE SPELL FAILURE, CRAPPY DURATION AND CASTER LEVEL of level 2 and 1 spells. The price for 30 such scrolls is utterly exorbitant (24k), and doesn't last for nearly as long as anyone might think.

To elaborate on my anti-crutch stance, mundanes sorely need that crutch to come near their non-mundane peers. If someone tells me not to use a crutch on a mundane and play a non-mundane instead, that is purely terrible balancing, and not a solution, because mundanes will always need that crutch, be it UMD, or something else. Gear is available to everyone, so it won't be that. No one seems to bother to want to give them actually good new feats, unlike the barrage of feats to the non-mundanes that have been now made all, as a collective, much stronger. I fail to see the gameplan of the development team, here, and nothing I was explained thus far comes close to answering any of this in a convincing manner - and I've included my rebuttals to those statements in this long-winded reply.

My suggestion is to change the merchant modifiers on level 0-3 scrolls, specifically. Those are not the best spells out there, and they are not all that useful in dungeons to the players that could afford a bunch of them. Instead of a doubling of price, perhaps 1.5x, or 1.3x. I don't think this is much to ask in terms of balancing, but it may be in terms of work.

Were they considered OP before? Rogues?

Yes, though misguidedly so. They are strong in the hands of mechanically apt players that spend a lot of time getting rich to buy scrolls / traps with. A rogue that is not mechanically apt or has no time or desire to buy his way into actual utility, will not be good. Ever. They are second-rate in combat, if they are your primary class, without the utility crutch (apparently) of scrolls.

Apologies for the loaded reply.

EDIT: Someone said somewhere that gold being weightless, as I have said, shouldn't impact me on buying scrolls. To clarify, it is weightless to those that pursue it, and as I said in my post, I do not.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 02:05:34 AM by Pav »

Dante101

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2017, 01:10:02 AM »
I've only been playing on the server for a few months now, but I wholeheartedly agree with Pav on this. Scrolls were a good, yet expensive option for dungeon runs in the event that you had a small group without a mage present or wanted to tackle something solo. With these changes, I think it's cost prohibitive now (for mid level characters, at least) to use scrolls for this purpose.

Would I want to travel and dungeon crawl with a mage if given the option? Absolutely. Their spells last longer and are free. But unfortunately they aren't always available, and I feel like it shouldn't be a hard and fast requirement to have one to successfully run a dungeon with some friends.

I know there are other uses for scrolls beyond dungeons, but that has been my limited exposure - and what I personally found most appealing about Use Magic Device and scrolls in general.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 01:26:38 AM by Dante101 »

Pav

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2017, 01:13:38 AM »
With these changes, I think it's cost prohibitive now (for mid level characters, at least) to use scrolls for this purpose.

A player with a level 20 character I know has said onto me when this news was given to us - "Time to go bankrupt myself even more!"

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2017, 01:53:13 AM »
^ Pav and Iridni Ren have some great comments on this. Couldn't agree more. I'd also like to note one other thing in conjunction. . .

I think this is fairly damaging to UMD as a skill. We've had 2 substantial increases to UMD DC's fairly recently. It bumped the DC's for some things (like overcoming alignment restrictions) out of reach for a lot of characters. Scrolls were still items that you could use more reasonably, but this further limits that - making the massive investment to allow UMD to be viable a little more painful. 

Philos

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2017, 02:11:30 AM »
I'm going to preface this post with some screen shots I'd like everyone to take a look at. I think I puts into perspective with hard numbers how this change has and will affect players.

Spoiler: show










First off, this is issue is not just about scrolls. ANY item with charges or casts of spells has now has its valued doubled. This means potions, scrolls, consumables, trinkets. Anything a mundane class is going to use is now either twice as hard to find or twice as expensive. The reason scrolls are being brought to the forefront is they are available reliably from NPC merchants that allow us fufill our class. Rogues, as a class, are designed around acquiring and using items and consumables. Their unique skills are centered around this. Stealth, open lock, pick pocket, disable trap and use magical device are all about being able to get and use that edge.

Scroll usage is core for the rogue class.

Having played a stealth Rogue/ Ranger for the last three I can vouch for Pav's numbers. I'll burn through 10-15 of each of the three required scrolls a week and often more if I'm active. I'd rather spend my time eavesdropping, breaking and entering, and generally being a sneaky sonofabitch than farming dungeons for gold to pay for what I'd rather be doing.

A 100% increase in the cost of magic is extreme.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 02:14:40 AM by Philos »

swizzlesaurus

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2017, 02:19:21 AM »
A 100% increase in the cost of magic is extreme.

Wow I didn't find out about this until just now, and I completely agree with Philos on this one. A 100% increase to the prices of any magical use item (Potions, staffs, anything with a charge, basically anything) its quite extreme. These scrolls such as Camouflage, One with the land, and Light Step are my bread and butter. The fact that I can no longer reliably pay for these items or any scroll for that matter really make my build almost non-functional. I can't express to you how badly this change is for my character. I will make less money looting and it will cost me more to buy the things that will help me loot.

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2017, 06:56:00 AM »
If what Philos says is true, it means that items like that

Spoiler: show


And any items will charges of spells should also double yes? If such an item is already worth 7k in the loot tables, will it now go up to 14k?

I think it illustratres pretty well what Emptyanima and Chaos were trying to explain in another thread about the "vendor trash" that as exceptionnaly high loot value.

Philos

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2017, 07:10:55 AM »
On the plus side Chab, if that does make that item 13-15k, it will never, ever- drop. Or better yet, it'll be over the teams 8k gold limit for loot items and it'll just be removed. We're saved!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 07:13:38 AM by Philos »

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Re: Scroll Price Increases
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2017, 07:53:35 AM »
Only the price of scrolls was adjusted.

But guys, I get it that it affects the playstyle of a few of you. Though I suggest you give it some times. I do not believe it is nearly as extreme as some make it. But I promise you we will seriously reevaluate the balance of this all in due time.

And remember, good rogue oriented wares were added with the HAK. You need only to find them.
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