Blaustein Merchant

[julienchab]

To my grand surprise today when I went to sell to Raoul, in Blaustein, I reliazed that most of the items were now selling for about 1/4 of what they used to! Most of the usual "crap/junk loot" that we find in dungeons would hardly sell for more than 250 gold per item, and that's talking for those that used to sell at 1000. Most now sit in the 50-100 range. Even the most expensive of my items had a hard time going over the 500 gold piece per item sold.

I can only think this is intentional, since it is made right at the same time as the hak, but I saw no mention of it in the Changelog. How, I once again question the benefits of nerfing a merchant in such a hard way. A few months back, perhaps a year?, most of the merchants, including Raoul, were changed with the way appraised was calculated, and Raoul was maxed at a 1000 gold piece from items. This was already a hit to the amount of gold someone could make from adventures, since quite a bit of items used to sell for over 1000 if you had good appraise. Now this comes at ever a bigger hit, and makes it pretty much useless to go to Blaustein to sell the junk from adventures.

So my question... why?

Now, if it is to make people go sell to other merchants, it will work, nobody will ever bother going to Blaustein anymore, other than to kill reavers. If it's to make gold less accessible to players, I find it a very weird way to do so, as per my estimations, a trip to some of the desert temples will yield perhaps 4 to 6 thousand gold, which divided between the adventurers will make a very low income for everyone. Even hardly enough to cover the expenses of the caravan for someone who travels quite a bit between the domains.

Also, these prices are considered with an appraise score of 30, which requires skill investment, gear, and a lot of intelligence.

[Ciaran999]

Agreed; this change has me scratching my head. That's a significant reduction and it's not like the trip there was cheap, depending on where you were coming from. From Barovia it's a 500 gold round trip. I guess the plus side is I'll save myself the time and gold as now I'll only go to Blaustein for the rare RP and rarer (for me) Reaver caves.

[Chaoshawk]

Good night sweet prince.

[booksarefun666]

Good night sweet prince.

Another victory against the ninjalooters.

[Norture]

That merchant gave an obscene amount of gold before, it was pretty ridiculous. I made 7k in one trip and I don't even regularly trash junk loot, I can't imagine how much people made who used the npc regularly. IMO that's not a bad nerf. I wouldn't even call it an attack on ninja looters, it hits serial dungeoners more than ninjas. Ninjas are low str and loot for merchant stock.

[EO]

When we disabled Identify and capped stores across the module we thought it affected this merchant too; that it didn't was an oversight. As for the changes to Appraise, the merchant's Appraise wasn't changed at all but the store now uses the same Appraise caps as other stores in the module.

[julienchab]

When we disabled Identify and capped stores across the module we thought it affected this merchant too; that it didn't was an oversight. As for the changes to Appraise, the merchant's Appraise wasn't changed at all but the store now uses the same Appraise caps as other stores in the module.

When the change was made, I remember the Blaustein merchant was talked about and it was mentionned that it was wanted that the cap was now of 1000 to reduce the amount of gold that he was giving. I don't really see the point of cutting off 75% of what a merchant gives in terms of gold though.

I capped it in my last update to align it with other merchants that were capped. It's capped at 1000gp, which still makes it better than other merchants but not outrageously better.

Considering you said that over a year ago, I'm not sure I understand your point saying it wasn't working as intended, since it was indeed capped to 1000.

[EO]

Yeah, that was in August; the changes to domain maximum prices were implemented later. They were done at the same time as the Lore/Identifying merchants changes (a few weeks after that post really); because the Blaustein merchant for some reason didn't use the standard scripts, it was missed for a long time.

As intended, the Dementlieuse merchants have the highest cap since they're from the richest domain.

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=44080.msg555891#msg555891

[k_moustakas]

Just so you know guys, I have two appraise toons you can hire to sell your loot for you 

On topic, it's a shame because I think we all loved that there was a place on an island far away you could sell your loot to pirates for more gold. It's gonna be a dead zone now more or less. Who's gonna take two caravans and a boat just to visit the reavers?

[DM Cataclysm]

I have been playing around with this a lot today and it does seem that no matter how you try to sell items this is a pretty significant reduction. I think when the August changes were made that reduced selling some items in the 4,000 range down to 1,000 - that was definitely warranted. I feel like this further change (essentially just to Blaustein I know - but it was the primary selling spot) reduces things a bit too far.

From what I've read, the intention is to be able to get the highest prices from the appropriate merchants in Dementlieu (ie - gems to the gem merchant, weapons to Ragdar, etc). That doesn't seem to be how things are functioning for me. Ex: with +26 appraise I used to be able to sell a ruby in Blaustein for 1,000. At the gem dealer I get 420. In Mist Camp I get 540. I've also noticed the same thing that some other players have mentioned, when comparing prices offered to a high appraise character, vs a low appraise character (in this case +26 vs +7) there is only a small difference in pricing. It would add up across the sale of hundreds of items, but given the investment to get to higher appraise - I'm wondering if this could receive a small adjustment upward?

I think the biggest concern with receiving overall less for a loot haul is adventuring with larger groups. The best I can tell is that we're receiving about 50 - 60% of what we previously could have received in Blaustein, in a best case scenario. If you consider traveling with a 5 person group, to a location where you previously could have made 15,000 - this is a really small gain for individuals in the group. I've already heard a lot of grumblings about people wanting to travel in smaller groups now and I don't feel like that's overall better for the environment.

I don't think things would necessarily have to go back to the old Blaustein days, but meeting somewhere in the middle might be the most productive both for the economy and not encouraging small parties. Perhaps further increasing the caps and value increases for high appraise characters and giving an additional boost to item-specific merchants would help to get there.

And. . . I agree with Blaustein! I think the region will be somewhat untraveled now, as Reavers don't tend to net much experience gain and have a relatively small amount of items to be collected. Perhaps Raoul could purchase a specific type of item at a higher rate as well, to encourage travel to the domain so it doesn't become a ghost town.

[DM Cataclysm]

Also, another note here - scroll prices seem to have really increased (only when you purchase then, not sell).

Shadow Shield, for example, used to sell in Port for about 2,000 at the bookseller. Now the price is 4,050. His prices haven't gone up on purchasing scrolls though. When trying to sell a level 6 scroll, you're offered about 240.

This makes me cry.

[EO]

I did some quick testing in Dementlieu as a DM (max values for Appraise):

-Shadow Shield (base price: 3413) sold for 3583 and I could resell it to the same merchant for 853.
-Maximum buying price of an item is 1500 gold pieces (any merchant) if the item is worth enough and your Appraise high enough.

It's not just a matter of beating the merchant's Appraise. It's the difference between both. Here's an example:

You are in Dementlieu (base cap at 1000gp per item). You're dealing with a merchant who sells his items at 100% their base value and buys at 10% their base value. You have 50 Appraise, the merchant has 0 Appraise, so the difference between your Appraise and his is 50.

Instead of having a cap at 1000 gp, this merchant's cap for you will be 1500 gp (50% difference).
Instead of selling your items at 10% of their base value (which is about the norm for most shops), you will sell them at 40% of their value (because that part caps at 30%).
Instead of buying your items at 100% of their base value (which is about the norm for most shops), you will buy them at 70% of their value (because that part caps at 30%).

Now, say your Appraise is 0 and the same merchant's is 50, the difference is -50:

Instead of having a cap at 1000 gp, this merchant's cap for you will be 500 gp (-50% difference).
Instead of selling your items at 10% of their base value (which is about the norm for most shops), you will sell them at 0-1% of their value (because that part caps at -30% and doesn't go below 1gp).
Instead of buying your items at 100% of their base value (which is about the norm for most shops), you will buy them at 130% of their value (because that part caps at -30%).

[julienchab]

So all we need is to get appraise to 30 and we will be capped towards what we can buy and sell?

This is also a big change as it means everything we want to buy from NPC much more expensive, while we will get much less gold what we less to NPC merchants.

Which should bring also a hit to PC to PC mercantile, since it will be harder to gather gold and buy items from other players.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Assuming that I've read this right, getting your appraise to 30 doesn't mean you have reached the cap. The cap is a difference of 30, but the appraise of each individual merchant varies. So the effective appraise cap for PC's serverwide would be equal to the Highest NPC Merchant appraise +30. And even when selling to the lowest appraise merchant, the cap would be Lowest NPC Mercahnt + 30. Is this correct?

Also just for the sake of comparison and personal contemplation on what "meeting in the middle," as was suggested earlier in this thread, might look like - What was the most recent Appraise system in place on this server? And was the change made primarily in the interest of server economy or were there other major factors in play here?

[DM Cataclysm]

Hm, yeah - I see where you're getting the values based on that formula. But, I imagine most NPC merchants have a reasonable appraise and most PC's can't get super high appraise scores even with items. I think that generally +26 is considered fairly high where appraise scores are considered. I'm assuming the bookseller has pretty big appraise if the scroll's base price is in the 3400 range and I was purchasing at 4050 with a +26. I do think something changed here since the hak (maybe just the bookkeepr's appraise score?), because as of last week I could purchase those at a much lower cost.

I think the general appraise/merchant system and the scrolls are two separate issues though. Scrolls themselves (at least at Mist Camp and the Bookkeeper) appear to have increased since last week. And then I still think there'd be some benefit if items could be sold somewhere between what we can get now and what we used to be able to get at Blaustein.

As Chab mentioned, I think this will be difficult on PC merchants also, as some characters aren't going to be able to accumulate much gold at all. I have a vardo PC that sells items at really reasonable prices compared to both other merchant PC's and NPC vendors. I've noticed since the change in August, there are A LOT more people who have difficulty affording lower cost common goods. I think this will be compounded going forward without some option to get a little bit higher prices when selling to NPCs.

I am curious how most vendors now compare to how Blaustein was set up? Was it just that his cap was higher and his appraise was lower? Could current merchant caps/appraise scores be adjusted between where they are now and where he was to get prices to land somewhere in the middle?

[SingASongOfDeath]

EO said earlier, on the Discord server, that scroll prices were doubled intentionally, so that’s where the increase came from.

[Dante101]

I think folks are interested in the reasoning behind the 200% price hike on scroll purchase price, more so than the math behind it. I am, at least.

[Pav]

My opinions on these changes have been voiced in the Discord earlier today, but as for the main topic of this thread, I don't believe that it's necessarily an issue. If you raise the point of "no one will go to Blaustein anymore", then I raise you the fact that going to Blaustein to sell doesn't make it into an inhabited domain, nor will people not going there anymore be felt on the server as a whole.

I should add that I agree an island of pirates offering you the best prices is a bit silly.

[Tycat]

Blaustein still buys stolen goods. Right? That's a reason to see that merchant if you're not a rogue. Although I liked the idea that the pirates could be the better merchant. Buying and shifting wares on a sort of shady market front. Dementlieu doesn't seem to reflect very well the prices being higher there, but I will have to double check.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Don't worry too much about Blaustein - we keep close track on area usage and it was well visited before it became the residency of the prime trader of loot. If it turns out that the place will now be left completely barren though we'll think of something.

But to comment on the reasoning behind our current setup in general, the primary (and sometimes overriding) objective when planning out things is to naturally generate player interaction (and thereby roleplay). The placement and setup of merchants factor into this in (at least) two ways:

1.It should generally be preferable to sell your items to other PCs when possible, because that in itself entails some interaction and roleplaying (things such as bargaining etc.), which then leads to more. But for anyone to be willing to hold on to the items until they can find someone to sell it to, there needs to be a fair margin in favour of doing that compared to selling it to an NPC merchant who is always available. That's why merchants offer so low buying prices.

2. Even if it's preferable that items are traded and exchanged between PCs, there will of course always be a significant number of items sold to NPC merchants due to oversupply, lack of inventory space, lack of time, etc. - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with people doing this. But then NPC merchants can also be used to generate more interaction by simply making sure that there are certain very frequented merchants so that people will bump into each other at the store - and that the stores are located so that people will naturally pass by other zones of regular PC presence ("hubs") on their way there. That's what Murnu (and to some degree Petre) does in Vallaki and what the trader does in the Mist Camp.

[Iridni Ren]

But then NPC merchants can also be used to generate more interaction by making sure that there are certain very frequented merchants so that people will bump into each other at the store - and that they are located in places where going there naturally makes you pass by other zones of regular PC presence ("hubs"). That's what Murnu (and to some degree Petre) does in Vallaki and what the trader does in the Mist Camp.

That's thoughtful and clever, but!!

I'll mention that trying to RP around frequently visited merchants is almost impossible because of the transaction spam. I would find it very difficult to start up a conversation with someone new under the circumstances. If I bump into someone I know, I always suggest we move away from the merchant to talk.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

But then NPC merchants can also be used to generate more interaction by making sure that there are certain very frequented merchants so that people will bump into each other at the store - and that they are located in places where going there naturally makes you pass by other zones of regular PC presence ("hubs"). That's what Murnu (and to some degree Petre) does in Vallaki and what the trader does in the Mist Camp.

That's thoughtful and clever, but!!

I'll mention that trying to RP around frequently visited merchants is almost impossible because of the transaction spam. I would find it very difficult to start up a conversation with someone new under the circumstances. If I bump into someone I know, I always suggest we move away from the merchant to talk.

Still in this case, the merchant caused the both of you to bump into each other and even if you're moving somewhere else, the merchant served is purpose

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Don't worry too much about Blaustein - we keep close track on area usage and it was well visited before it became the residency of the prime trader of loot. If it turns out that the place will now be left completely barren though we'll think of something.

But to comment on the reasoning behind our current setup in general, the primary (and sometimes overriding) objective when planning out things is to naturally generate player interaction (and thereby roleplay). The placement and setup of merchants factor into this in (at least) two ways:

1.It should generally be preferable to sell your items to other PCs when possible, because that in itself entails some interaction and roleplaying (things such as bargaining etc.), which then leads to more. But for anyone to be willing to hold on to the items until they can find someone to sell it to, there needs to be a fair margin in favour of doing that compared to selling it to an NPC merchant who is always available. That's why merchants offer so low buying prices.

2. Even if it's preferable that items are traded and exchanged between PCs, there will of course always be a significant number of items sold to NPC merchants due to oversupply, lack of inventory space, lack of time, etc. - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with people doing this. But then NPC merchants can also be used to generate more interaction by simply making sure that there are certain very frequented merchants so that people will bump into each other at the store - and that the stores are located so that people will naturally pass by other zones of regular PC presence ("hubs") on their way there. That's what Murnu (and to some degree Petre) does in Vallaki and what the trader does in the Mist Camp.

Thank you for this explanation Zarathustra, these are a couple of points that I had not considered, and can definitely see the logic behind. Any change that facilitates more opportunities for RP has at least that inherently strong advantage to it, and I can definitely see where this modification could accomplish exactly that.