NPC Vallaki Guardsmen

[Blight]

NPC Vallaki Guardsmen are misrepresented on the server by their level.

PC characters are supposed to be above their peers in talent and ability, and having the NPC Guards and Radu at level 10 is not accurately representing that relationship.

Furthermore, it creates more accountability for PC Guard players to reduce the NPC Guard level. Having low level PC Guards have access to level several level 10 summons at any given time is overpowered when taking into consideration that Vallaki is a starter area. It's often stated that Vallaki Guard are supposed to be underlevelled and outmatched but that really isn't accurate when they have access to such high level summons.

I'm recommending that the level of Vallaki Guard NPCs is reduced to level 5 to properly reflect the theme of the Vallaki Guard and to give more responsibility, accountability and focus to the PC.

This would also have the benefit of reducing the likelihood that the Guard Horn is used as a Win Button and assist in redirecting Guard PC mindset into less of an us vs them mentality and into generating additional non conflict related roleplay.

[peps]

Hardly any reason to justify this change. The guards are meant to add another layer of fear. If even a person who commits a week of average play can knock them down like dominoes, then why even have them present? For immersion?

I could only share this opinion, if there were PC guards abusing their power willy nilly, but that's not the case at all in my experience.

[booksarefun666]

A guard's going to use a guard horn when you resist them on a hood check whether they're level 2 peasants or not.

You don't really join the Vallaki guard to win. They're barely in the same league with the rest of us maniacs, I sincerely doubt the plucky underdogs need a nerf.

[Arawn]

The faction is essentially prohibited high-level gear; they can't cast magic; they reinforce the setting. So they have the power of law and official standing to offset that. It's carefully designed and has worked very well. Every PC doesn't get to be a "hero" and win over the "evil Garda." The Garda have the entire city on their side.

[Blight]

They can have the entire city on their side without the guards being Lvl 10. They can have official power too, without high level summons. I'm fully in support of that.

What they shouldn't have is mechanical advantage. They are a poorly trained and uneducated grunt force in a backwater village. And in any case where a PC is below level 10, they do.

Everything you described, Arawn, is still in effect whether the NPC Guards are level 10 or level 5.

The only difference is one is more accurately portraying the setting and level range of NPCs. These NPC Guards should not all be in the "exceptional" class in a backwater village when they aren't much more than paid, untrained thugs given a castle.

Changing the level of the NPC "Evil Guarda" isn't going to suddenly make the outlander "hero" suddenly triumph over them.

The same thing will happen as always. The Outlander will win in combat, the Guard will probably die, somebody will raise him and then that Guard will post a bounty. Some outlander will hunt down the criminal, kill him, and deliver the corpse to the house of the dead. This isn't going to change.

The only thing that is going to change is that Guard players won't have mechanical advantage over other PCs under level 10 as much as they do. I can say that in about 90% of confrontations, the very first thing the Guard does in a conflict scenario is blow that horn. Three guard npcs rush up, and even if that non-guard pc is level 9( which, by the way, is supposed to mean that PC is EXCEPTIONAL in ability), he is going to get steamrolled by the Guard NPCs.

If you go and read the bounty board, you're going to find that only about 10% of the bounty board doesn't read "CAUGHT!" Does that actually seem reflective of the setting? Are the Vallaki Guard ACTUALLY as underpowered and devoid of magic as people claim? I know of very few Guard PCs who aren't wearing a ghost hood. During my time in the Vallaki Guard  aside from very new PCs, I saw few Guard characters who didn't have gear on par with what most characters under level 10 do. Their arrest and prosecution rate is likely higher than any known police force in the entire world today, and that's with modern day technology.

All we would doing in reducing the level advantage the mechanical summon system is giving PC Guards the opportunity to think outside the box, focus more on create ambience in Vallaki,  and encourage them to rely on the power of the law and the only real results is their roleplay will be more cautious regarding picking fights with outlander away from the Vallaki walls and the diversity of how Guards choose to approach conflict will expand.

Isn't that the way it should be?

[Blight]

Hardly any reason to justify this change. The guards are meant to add another layer of fear. If even a person who commits a week of average play can knock them down like dominoes, then why even have them present? For immersion?

Yes, they're there for immersion. Fear? Not so much. But the level of fear that people have in the Guard isn't going to change because their npc buddies had their level reduced. It's just going to mean that the Vallaki Guard will have to rely more heavily on the power of the law to enforce  their brand of order, instead of just using mechanical advantage on new PCs.

This change, above all, encourages diversity in the approach the Guards have to take in conflict scenarios. It simply means that it will be a requirement of Guards to take new approaches to solving conflict instead of whipping out the swords and trying to take down any PC that tells them "No."

[Iridni Ren]

I think the "power of law and official standing" is always going to trump anything anyway. If someone has a huge bounty placed on her by the garda, she's going to have to stay away from Vallaki and the Outskirts, or other PCs will happily take her out.

Having the NPCs be 10th level, however, seems to be a mechanical fix that is immersion breaking (or at least counter to the setting) for the reasons the Good Doctor lists. The actual problem is the perennial tendency of high levels to lurk in the Outskirts.

Not using high-level gear and magic should be handicaps. Inflating NPC levels above what they reasonably would be to address that isn't reallly any better in terms of setting or preserving immersion than saying garda can use gear and magic.

Another problem with believing that inflating the level fixes it is that it increases the disparity for beginning PCs but doesn't do much for experienced PCs. A band of four 2nd level PCs isn't going to challenge three or four fifth level garda with any chance of success, just the same as they wouldn't a band of 10th. But high-powered PCs who have no business rampaging through the Outskirts will still squash both.

Regarding fear, Joe Sixpack garda should be just as much afraid as everyone else. That's why they go into the city at night and lock everything down (which doesn't make a lot of sense for a group of 10th levels). The futility of fighting them should stem from the knowledge that they have an "entire city on their side": you might be able to kill the individual, but after that you're never going to be able to rest easy again.

[Blight]

I think the "power of law and official standing" is always going to trump anything anyway. If someone has a huge bounty placed on her by the garda, she's going to have to stay away from Vallaki and the Outskirts, or other PCs will happily take her out.

Having the NPCs be 10th level, however, seems to be a mechanical fix that is immersion breaking (or at least counter to the setting) for the reasons the Good Doctor lists. The actual problem is the perennial tendency of high levels to lurk in the Outskirts.

Not using high-level gear and magic should be handicaps. Inflating NPC levels above what they reasonably would be to address that isn't reallly any better in terms of setting or preserving immersion than saying garda can use gear and magic.

Another problem with believing that inflating the level fixes it is that it increases the disparity for beginning PCs but doesn't do much for experienced PCs. A band of four 2nd level PCs isn't going to challenge three or four fifth level garda with any chance of success, just the same as they wouldn't a band of 10th. But high-powered PCs who have no business rampaging through the Outskirts will still squash both.

Regarding fear, Joe Sixpack garda should be just as much afraid as everyone else. That's why they go into the city at night and lock everything down (which doesn't make a lot of sense for a group of 10th levels). The futility of fighting them should stem from the knowledge that they have an "entire city on their side": you might be able to kill the individual, but after that you're never going to be able to rest easy again.

+100000

You sir(or madame)  are a poet. I couldn't have expressed it better myself.

[booksarefun666]

If you go and read the bounty board, you're going to find that only about 10% of the bounty board doesn't read "CAUGHT!" Does that actually seem reflective of the setting?

Just to be a little nitpicky but a fair bit of them are unable to be caught because they don't log back in ever again.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

First of all, from what I can remember from when I played my guard, the Vallaki Guard aren't level 10, I won't reveal their stats though.

Also... the Vallaki guard are really easy to kill as it is right now. When I had my Lance Corporal, I was allowed to have two guard NPC with me, and even then I was still super careful with whom I picked fight because I knew that even me and two guard NPC combined would likely still get wrecked by most people around in the outskirt, lowering the level of those NPC wouldn't really change that.

Also, I do not think any guard PC have been using the NPC in any abusing way, I think the current guard are doing a fine job and I have seen none abusing of their NPC up to now. There are also rules and guideline about using NPC for faction who have NPC available for companion.

Regarding fear, Joe Sixpack garda should be just as much afraid as everyone else. That's why they go into the city at night and lock everything down (which doesn't make a lot of sense for a group of 10th levels).

Barovian people have grown up fearing night and, in most case, were taught to fear it and take shelter before dusk. It's not simply about their strength, but also about who they are, their culture, and their education. Some of them may at some point get over their fear, but those are mostly player character.

[Arawn]

I think the "power of law and official standing" is always going to trump anything anyway. If someone has a huge bounty placed on her by the garda, she's going to have to stay away from Vallaki and the Outskirts, or other PCs will happily take her out.

Yes, that's right.

Having the NPCs be 10th level, however, seems to be a mechanical fix that is immersion breaking (or at least counter to the setting) for the reasons the Good Doctor lists. The actual problem is the perennial tendency of high levels to lurk in the Outskirts.

They're not that strong. They die to werewolves and to any PC with decent kit. When we fought the Battle of the Banner I killed a few Vallaki Garda with nothing but a level 9 PC with no magical gear and a halfway-decent build. The Outskirts support PCs up to that level. And if it does seem like an OOC decision, well, yes. Sometimes we have to make those to ensure balance. Letting the Garda be autokilled by anyone who doesn't like them doesn't work from a game dynamic even if you do believe that their NPCs should be a lower level.

Not using high-level gear and magic should be handicaps. Inflating NPC levels above what they reasonably would be to address that isn't reallly any better in terms of setting or preserving immersion than saying garda can use gear and magic.

Again, they're really not that strong, and just matching the highest level we expect in Barovia (forget high-levels loitering around) seems about the right place to aim for (and has historically produced the dynamic we're looking for). We don't adjust them for high-levels (and haven't adjusted them for high-levels) because they just massacre them anyway.

Another problem with believing that inflating the level fixes it is that it increases the disparity for beginning PCs but doesn't do much for experienced PCs. A band of four 2nd level PCs isn't going to challenge three or four fifth level garda with any chance of success, just the same as they wouldn't a band of 10th. But high-powered PCs who have no business rampaging through the Outskirts will still squash both.

You're speaking like we changed it; we haven't. The disparity is meant to be great at first. As the Garda go up in level they tend to rely less on the NPCs anyway.

Regarding fear, Joe Sixpack garda should be just as much afraid as everyone else. That's why they go into the city at night and lock everything down (which doesn't make a lot of sense for a group of 10th levels). The futility of fighting them should stem from the knowledge that they have an "entire city on their side": you might be able to kill the individual, but after that you're never going to be able to rest easy again.

As a former Garda, I know well the frustrations and expectations of being griefed at any moment by players who don't want to be hassled. But ultimately, it's what Iluvatar said--it's about roleplaying Barovians properly, not about us trying to make them afraid OOC. We select levels mostly based on game balance and the dynamics we want to see play out, and then leave it to the players to tell the story in the setting. Obviously we wouldn't have, say, level 20 garda NPCs, but some flexibility in the design of the game is essential.

And, by the way, the situations in which I've seen garda have a big mechanical PvP advantage thanks to the NPCs they cart around are far outnumbered by the number of times I've seen players kill garda NPCs for being annoying. So I just don't really see the reason for the change. The faction is working as it's designed to.

[Blight]

I'm going to go out on an edge here and go ahead and say that the NPC Guards are abused constantly and without variance.

But it's nobody's fault. No one player  does it. It's a fault we as a server have because it's a behaviour entrenched in everybody's roleplay.
These are behaviours that have been ongoing from a time where the server was still new  and we as a community weren't as nuanced in our roleplay. It's the behaviour where we don't treat NPCs as logical people with their own thoughts and beliefs.  We end up emulating shallow caricatures without realizing that these behaviours aren't improving our roleplay but rather detracting from it and reducing the amount of possible roleplay outcomes, not to mention detract of the overall accuracy of how an effective Guard organization would actually behave.

I'll explain.

The Vallaki Guard horn, it's effectively an alarm system, right? Guard is in trouble, so he blows that horn and all the nearby guards come running.

Im sure there is at least one other person here who's served their country in the military. And those people, along with any person who has worked in security, law enforcement, prison industry, or the military, I'm sure you're all familiar with emergency codes and response systems. If you were on duty, in a minor conflict with a civilian and they disagreed with you, or told you "no," to a request you made, you then immediately called for an emergency situation over your radio or comm, what do you think would happen when your commanding officer pulls you aside after?

He'd look you straight in the eye, and ask you why in the hell you just pulled four units off their posts because some civilian had a mouth on him. He'd then call you an idiot, officially reprimand you, and then if you don't lose your job or get demoted he'd tell you that if you ever abuse the emergency response system again, you're finished in your career. He'd also very likely tell you that this job probably isn't for you and if you can't handle a simple verbal conflict with a civilian without calling for backup then you probably should consider other career options that don't require self-confidence.

Vallaki is a city besieged by Gundarakite Rebels, oultanders,  and all manner of monsters in the night. If we're going to roleplay a military force, no matter how primitive, we have to realize that there's a very good reason Guardsmen are posted at the gate at all times, and every time that horn gets blown for some stupid little spat in the outskirts the Guard who blew it just put the entire city at risk. It is NOT something taken lightly.

So why do we blow the horn?

I'll be a bit ruthless here and say its because we as players know that those NPC guards are higher level and we now know that with their help we actually have a chance of winning a combat scenario. And that horn gets blown on a -whim- because the player knows that there is no IC repercussion for how that horn is used.

Take that away, reduce those NPCs level, and what will change? Those PC guards are no longer mid level combatants, and they're going to have to be very careful about who they pick fights with and how. They have to make sure it's for a good reason, and plan preemptively instead of just approaching every PC in the outskirts, do the standardized hood check and name and occupation stuff, and hope one of them talks back so that a conflict can ensue.

I think it's a terrible demonstration of how actual guards would act and completely out of character behaviour based on out of character knowledge of character levels. Guards  especially in Vallaki, wouldn't want to leave the city. They wouldn't be hood checking and harassing every outlander around because they KNOW they aren't in a safe location and if they overstep their ability they are going to end up dead. Our setting? The guards should be quite fearful of walking outside the city walls, the walls were made to protect them from dangers.  You reduce the NPC Guard level, and suddenly that Guard has a much, much smaller meat shield and actually begins to appreciate that parapet or gate he can stand behind to keep him safe. The power here shouldn't be in the level of the NPC Guards, but the WALLS of the city, the size of their military force, the citadel itself, and the backing of the Count and the Burgeomeister.

This is what the reality should be for the Guards. Hesitance, caution, and only fighting if they need to. I have witnessed first hand guards on dozens of occasions go around hood checking every character in the outskirts BUT higher level/ better known or equipped characters. They treat them much more politely, and instead focus on the characters they "know" can be culled by summoning level 10 summons.

I want to clarify that in my opinion, I would say that only 50% of the Guard PCs I have encountered have engaged in the negative behaviours I've mentioned. There are some truly excellent people who have been and are guards and those people, I salute you. Your roleplay is top notch.

For me, 50/50 odds of getting a Guard PC who acts consistently with the setting and has a basic understanding of how guard would perform his duties is just too poor of odds to not address.

I've seen several people defend the current level of the Vallaki Guardsmen in very abstract ways and argue that the change simply isn't necessary, but nobody has yet to explain how or why the current Guard NPC level is NECESSARY for their roleplay.  Does having level 10 summons "improve" the Guard's ability to effectively roleplay their control of the region? Level 10 is still pretty low, and anybody higher level who wanted to could still put the entire Team Garda in the ground. The only thing it does is allow Guardsmen to subjugate brand new characters with confidence knowing oocly that they don't have to fear losing.

In my opinion, if it's not a big problem, then you don't need higher level summons. If changing it won't make a difference, then putting them to 5th level shouldn't be a problem when the upside is we are building a more nuanced and accurate depiction of Vallaki.

In my opinion, the debate here seems to be between mechanical strength vs roleplay and setting accuracy. It's a mechanical advantage that is neither warranted by the setting or needed. If the point is to blow the horn, to give the outlander a "show of force," then it shouldn't matter what level they are if the point is to just make a point that the Guard has the numbers on his side. The level is arbitrary and if somebody is suggesting that the level of those summons matters, then they're missing the entire point of those summons.

So let's look at this objectively. What are the cons of reducing the NPC Guard level? What are the benefits?

[Arawn]

I don't see much of that. When I was a Garda I blew the horn only if I was in immediate physical danger, and that's mostly what I've seen from the players, too. That 50% statistic is far out of proportion and invented from thin air. I can't take you on client and show you, so you'll kinda have to take my word for it.

From everything I've seen this just isn't a problem. I'd welcome reports of misuse of the guards or screenshots of a situation where the behaviors you and others report occurred.

[Blight]

I don't see much of that. When I was a Garda I blew the horn only if I was in immediate physical danger, and that's mostly what I've seen from the players, too. That 50% statistic is far out of proportion and invented from thin air. I can't take you on client and show you, so you'll kinda have to take my word for it.

From everything I've seen this just isn't a problem. I'd welcome reports of misuse of the guards or screenshots of a situation where the behaviors you and others report occurred.

Well, I can say that very rarely has any of my characters ever opposed the Vallaki Guard in a physical fashion, but it is slightly more likely that verbal conflict will ensue.

When verbal conflict ensues, I can say CONFIDENTLY that at least half of the time, NPC guards are summoned, even if the dispute is minor and my PC is unarmed. I'm not making that number out of thin air. The truth is, I was being generous with that number. But for every time it happens from here on out, I'll send you a screenshot and you can decide for yourself. No amount of screenies with show you the amount, though, just that it happens.

But let's say for the sake of argument that the number is 0%. Let's say that there has never been a single instance of abuse.

How does that change anything regarding the NPC level? If there's no problem, then why is it necessary for the Vallaki Guard NPCs to be the level that are? It's not needed, according to the people who are defenders of the current setup, since higher levels steamroll across anyways. So why advocate for the higher level?

It doesn't improve the quality of roleplay to have them inaccurately portrayed in level and it doesn't actually give the Vallaki Guardsmen any significant power over anybody but the lowest level characters.

Does that not, by definition, make them an "erroneous and ineffective creature" that should be replaced for the integrity and accuracy of the mechanical abilities available to them? What is the purpose of keeping something in "just because" if nobody is arguing that it's wrong, just that it is not a big deal?

We have an entire thread of erroneous and ineffective creatures and while very few of them were ever a big deal that needed to be addressed, we changed them for accuracy's sake.

[RickDeckard]

I'll explain.

The Vallaki Guard horn, it's effectively an alarm system, right? Guard is in trouble, so he blows that horn and all the nearby guards come running.

Im sure there is at least one other person here who's served their country in the military. And those people, along with any person who has worked in security, law enforcement, prison industry, or the military, I'm sure you're all familiar with emergency codes and response systems. If you were on duty, in a minor conflict with a civilian and they disagreed with you, or told you "no," to a request you made, you then immediately called for an emergency situation over your radio or comm, what do you think would happen when your commanding officer pulls you aside after?

He'd look you straight in the eye, and ask you why in the hell you just pulled four units off their posts because some civilian had a mouth on him. He'd then call you an idiot, officially reprimand you, and then if you don't lose your job or get demoted he'd tell you that if you ever abuse the emergency response system again, you're finished in your career. He'd also very likely tell you that this job probably isn't for you and if you can't handle a simple verbal conflict with a civilian without calling for backup then you probably should consider other career options that don't require self-confidence.

Vallaki is a city besieged by Gundarakite Rebels, oultanders,  and all manner of monsters in the night. If we're going to roleplay a military force, no matter how primitive, we have to realize that there's a very good reason Guardsmen are posted at the gate at all times, and every time that horn gets blown for some stupid little spat in the outskirts the Guard who blew it just put the entire city at risk.

So why do we blow the horn?

I'll be a bit ruthless here and say its because we as players know that those NPC guards are higher level and we now know that with their help we actually have a chance of winning a combat scenario. And that horn gets blown on a -whim- because the player knows that there is no IC repercussion for how that horn is used.

When the NPC Garda sound their horn and it turns out it was for one rat, I go and yell at them, regardless if possessed or not by a DM (so I'm essentially yelling at myself). As for why we blow the horn, most likely due to be threatened (where we will be attacked), people resisting arrest so we need backup (because things are/will get violent) or we see a Caliban in the outskirts (when they won't go away after being warned because it would be stupid for me to engage a Caliban and we are meant to deter them away, not fight them).

Take that away, reduce those NPCs level, and what will change? Those PC guards are no longer mid level combatants, and they're going to have to be very careful about who they pick fights with and how. They have to make sure it's for a good reason, and plan preemptively instead of just approaching every PC in the outskirts, do the standardized hood check and name and occupation stuff, and hope one of them talks back so that a conflict can ensue.

We already are very careful of who we pick fights with, my Garda has the belief that all outlanders are capable of magic to some extent and our best weapons are most likely....Silver-Gilded weapons, great for Neuri and such but we don't have an edge on outlanders. And if the NPC Guards were lowered, well I can just expect them to click a few buttons and wipe out all the Garda with me when an outlander refuses to be arrested knowing how low level they are. I have seen single Caliban wipe out an entire patrol of 5-6 Guardsman, including a mix of NPC and PC's, I know because I was a victim of that patrol. It's not exactly difficult to destroy us with your magic weapons and magic, I don't think it would be fair for the NPC's under my wing to be nerfed where I will just get destroyed because some outlander doesn't want comply with being arrested. The DM's have done an excellent balance of the faction.

I think it's a terrible demonstration of how actual guards would act and completely out of character behaviour based on out of character knowledge of character levels. Guards  especially Vallaki, wouldn't want to leave the city. They wouldn't be hood checking and harassing every outlander around because they KNOW they aren't in a safe location and if they overstep their ability they are going to end up dead. Our setting? The guards should be quite fearful of walking outside the city walls, the walls were made to protect them from dangers.  You reduce the NPC Guard level, and suddenly that Guard has a much, much small meat shield and actually begins to appreciate that parapet or gate he can stand behind to keep him safe. The power here shouldn't be I'm the level of the NPC Guard, but the WALLS of the city, the size of their military force, the citadel itself, and the backing of the Count and the Burgeomeister.

As an active Garda I honestly don't know the levels of 99% of players and the ones I do (I mean I don't see my character's wife attacking me...), all I know is that they are a vraja dealing outlander and I need to be smart and misleading to get them to back down or arrest them....That's backfired on me before. Also we do not hood check every outlander because that is a waste of time and my character has been chewed out for doing so in his earlier time of the Garda, we do it if you are suspicious of you or you appear to be committing a crime.
 

This is what the reality should be for the Guards. Hesitant, caution, and only fight if they need to. I have witnessed first hand guards on dozens of occasions go around hood checking every character in the outskirts BUT higher level and better known characters. They treat them much more politely, and instead focus on the characters they "know" can be culled by summoning level 10 summons.

I can only speak for myself, I am polite to people I like (or I NEED to be polite to them for some reason, most likely diplomatic) ...that's it, not their levels or any of that. We only hood check everyone if we are ordered to or on full alert for someone.

[Iridni Ren]

And if the NPC Guards were lowered, well I can just expect them to click a few buttons and wipe out all the Garda with me when an outlander refuses to be arrested knowing how low level they are.

Didn't I read that you're not supposed to kill NPCs unless a DM is around or something like that?

That a PC is always supposed to back down from fighting NPCs without DM approval?

I don't think it would be fair for the NPC's under my wing to be nerfed where I will just get destroyed because some outlander doesn't want comply with being arrested.

It seems to me that all other PCs have to face that same worry, though. No other PC gets to enforce her will on you fearlessly. Why should garda?

If you have several NPC garda with you, and the PC resists, then here are some possible outcomes:

1) The PC kills you all, no DM is present, you screenshot it, and the PC gets disciplined for the rule break (killing the NPC garda).

2) The PC complies with being arrested.

3) The PC flees and to the best of your ability you give chase.
  a) The PC gets away (increased chance because the NPCs are weakened, but that's hardly gamebreaking)
  b) The PC does not

4) The PC tries to kill your PC character only. She is still at a disadvantage because she has to leave the NPCs alone, and fifth level or not, they'll be doing some damage. They will also make it more difficult to get away with your body. But isn't that the risk of playing an aggressive PC likely to get involved in PvP?

Also, if the garda horn catches a DM's attention or a DM just happens to be watching, anything at all might happen to the PC.

I don't think bumping all the NPC gardas to 10th is the best solution to this problem is all. I'm always skeptical, for example, when "game balance" happens to be achieved at such a nice round number like 10

If inflating levels above what they reasonably would be to fix an issue is okay, why not make the Vistani all 20th (or at least the caravan drivers), so they don't ever get killed accidentally? Or set them to invulnerable? That would fix the problem of no caravan being available because something wandered out of the Mists and killed the driver.

[TheGrinningHound]

Didn't I read that you're not supposed to kill NPCs unless a DM is around or something like that?

Let's think about that for a minute:

If you weren't allowed to attack NPC's, and if a Garda character acquired NPC followers to try to arrest you, then you wouldn't be able to resist arrest at all without DM supervision, for the fear that it might break into violence-- and you might have to attack an NPC.

This isn't the case. If a character in a faction makes faction NPC's follow him, they're more or less treated as an extension of that specific character and his/her role in the faction.

Generally speaking, you're not supposed go willy nilly and attack NPC's. But there's an OCR system that automates violence and has a violent NPC reaction scripted (So you're pretty much free to interact with that as necessary, in terms of defending yourself). And there's also a faction-follower system that allows you to manipulate and use NPC's.

It seems to me that all other PCs have to face that same worry, though. No other PC gets to enforce her will on you fearlessly. Why should garda?

If you have several NPC garda with you, and the PC resists, then here are some possible outcomes:

1) The PC kills you all, no DM is present, you screenshot it, and the PC gets disciplined for the rule break (killing the NPC garda).

I don't believe this is a rulebreak: see above.

~ ~ ~ ~

Honestly, I never have had an issue with the way that Garda NPC's are balanced. The difference between a level 10 Garda NPC and a level 6 Garda NPC is a bit more AB, and a bit more health. And that's.. well, about it. He doesn't have 3 attacks per round (Level 11). He doesn't have adventurer loot. He doesn't have magic abilities, and probably has subpar saves.

They're also just as easy to escape from as level 5 NPC Garda. They're not any faster, they don't have new tricks.

A level 6 adventurer could probably beat a level 10 NPC garda. What makes it strong is the man standing next to him. And the PC standing next to him. And the potential threat of the whole city watch, and bounties to follow. And I don't honestly have a problem with this.

I don't really have a problem with OOC immersion and information on an NPC's character chart, when it meets the physical parameters that, at the end of the day, produce the desired result of instilling a dangerous atmosphere. What I mean by this, from a design standpoint, is that the player never really is supposed to know the levels, the feats, the skills, etc that an NPC has. There are many different ways to create NPC's to reach a desired amount. Usually they're looking for HP, saves, AC, AB, and damage. Sometimes that means "inflating" a level, to make up for other malluses. Sometimes that means equipping an NPC with really nice equipment instead (See: Dementlieuese Guard). It's literally just a design feature, and ya'll are looking too much into the specifics. The real question at the end of the day is: does the Garda NPC fulfill its role in the server?

It's like trying to argue that NPC-Only equipment is overpowered.

[Blight]

Edited by me.



You know, sometimes i'm pretty harsh when I write things. Sometimes i can be pretty hard on people, too. Unlike my nature in real life, when i'm writing i come off as very strongly opinionated. I come off as incredibly invested in what i'm talking about, when the truth is i'm really not. I'll complain about something, or insist or encourage change, but at the end of the day i really care much less than i demonstrate in the content I write. By the time I'm done writing a post, I've already moved onto thinking about something else.

I can use a keyboard at 70 wpm, so churning out long-winded posts comes pretty easily to me and really doesn't take that much time investment for me. I guess what i'm saying is that in some ways, i probably misrepresent how strongly i feel about certain things. I've lately been getting a bit too dramatic, because sometimes i find myself just really trying to push through the point i'm trying to make.

I'd just like to clarify a few things, since it's related. And before anybody thinks it, nobody asked me to do this. A friend on the server asked me tonight if i was so discontent with the server, why I keep coming back. It didn't take long for me to have an answer.

There isn't a person on the server I dislike. I have the attention span of a peanut and really don't have it in me to dislike people.

If I was so discontent with the server, I wouldn't be here. I have lots of games, and this isn't my favorite because I love the art direction.

I enjoy the people. I enjoy the stories we create. I love the storytelling process, and I enjoy the narrative that is born from all of us sharing the same server space. Sometimes I see something that i feel is limiting things and i can get overzealous. So for that, I wanted to apologize. Yes, I want certain things to be changed but sometimes i'm not always fair to the other members of the community when I do so. This is a great community, and i'm happy to be a part of it. Much of my "zeal" stems from the very simple fact that I want to server to always be better than it was yesterday, even if that's just my opinion.

If you've felt like i don't hear your opinions, or I am just here to stand on my own soap-box, I apologize. I'm sorry.

[Iridni Ren]

TGD: Most of what you say is true of me as well...though I've been known to type even faster!

I mean...

if i was so discontent with the server, why I keep coming back.

"America: Love it or leave it!"

That's basically the same sentiment, isn't it?

TGH: See here...

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=15243.msg174928#msg174928

And here: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=2863.msg34636#msg34636

NPCs:

- Attacks upon NPCs are expected to be handled in character and always under DM supervision. Killing an NPC needs to have a valid role-playing reason - being "evil" is not sufficient. And be aware that wholesale slaughter will likely get you executed.

I think there are other examples, but those are the first two I found.

[Nemesis 24]

Going to throw my hat into this ring.  I believe that the garda are absolutely balanced, for a wide variety of reasons both IC, and OOC.

First, they enhance the setting.  But this requires an establishment of the setting itself, and understanding it, and the first part in understanding is that the setting is about the players against the very setting itself - and almost inevitably failing every time.  It is also a setting where the players are, quite deliberately, firmly removed from power and player agency being freely available.  We've gone over that a few times before, and it is extremely necessary.  As this isn't a pen and paper game where the players are the protagonists, we are instead regulated to the role of existing, and surviving in the setting.  The true protagonists of the setting are the Dark Lords, and our efforts basically consist of trying to avoid or simply survive their attentions.

Despite the fact that the garda are played by players and NPC's alike, they are the first and most direct representation of Strahd's power.  That power is, in his realm, quite nearly absolute and his garda represent that power.  They are, as a result, almost mythically feared in the game, and this honestly is how it should be.  Short of Strahd's undead minions making themselves present more or less constantly (which is unlikely, if not outright improbable) the extension of his will and power is the Garda.

Vallaki has many purposes.  It has the most factions, it is the first place you find when you get here, and it is, quite frankly, a containment zone.  It has the highest population, and undeniably the highest level of frankly immersion breaking behaviour (which is also entirely forgiveable, its why the place exists).  But as a result of that, it often requires a firm hand, and that hand is the garda as the DM's cannot (nor should they) be continually present to simply keep people in line.

As a result, the sense of danger, regardless of who you are, is maintained.  Be you on the side of extreme good or extreme evil, or simply highly chaotic, and you're going to have to be careful, and in so doing also respect the setting and your place in it, and the garda are necessary for that.  They need to be strong.  But they are not, as has been noted, 'too' strong.  AMPC's massacre them.  I've seen a single lvl 15 character drop two potions and take out over two dozen garda without taking a scratch.  They are strong perhaps, but they aren't overwhelming.  For a force that has as many enemies as they do, they do remarkably, wonderfully well with limited resources.  But levels are pretty much the only edge that they have.

The garda are frustrating, difficult, and often obnoxious.  But they are -supposed- to be.  Honestly, a stronger garda makes the setting itself stronger.  The sense of oppression and frustration and even hopelessness is, to me (by this point) a major underpinning to the overall atmosphere of the setting.  To make them weaker so we can feel stronger as a player base is, I think, missing a fundamental core aspect of what the experience is supposed to involve in Vallaki.  Yes, it can be hair tearingly frustrating to get your butt handed to you by them.  But that's the risk you take when you start making moves that attract their attention.  Consequences need to exist here, and they need to be forceful.  Garda should be viewed as dangerous for them to function, and if this is the best option to make sure of that, then I think it should stay that way.


Note:  Pardon if I blather here.  Fighting a nasty headache as I wrote this.

EDIT:  Iridni, I think that rule exists with discretion.  Its primary purpose is in regards to the use of killing named NPC's I believe.  Killing a garda is one thing.  Trying to kill Lizuca is quite something else.

[RickDeckard]

Going to throw my hat into this ring.  I believe that the garda are absolutely balanced, for a wide variety of reasons both IC, and OOC.

First, they enhance the setting.  But this requires an establishment of the setting itself, and understanding it, and the first part in understanding is that the setting is about the players against the very setting itself - and almost inevitably failing every time.  It is also a setting where the players are, quite deliberately, firmly removed from power and player agency being freely available.  We've gone over that a few times before, and it is extremely necessary.  As this isn't a pen and paper game where the players are the protagonists, we are instead regulated to the role of existing, and surviving in the setting.  The true protagonists of the setting are the Dark Lords, and our efforts basically consist of trying to avoid or simply survive their attentions.

Despite the fact that the garda are played by players and NPC's alike, they are the first and most direct representation of Strahd's power.  That power is, in his realm, quite nearly absolute and his garda represent that power.  They are, as a result, almost mythically feared in the game, and this honestly is how it should be.  Short of Strahd's undead minions making themselves present more or less constantly (which is unlikely, if not outright improbable) the extension of his will and power is the Garda.

Vallaki has many purposes.  It has the most factions, it is the first place you find when you get here, and it is, quite frankly, a containment zone.  It has the highest population, and undeniably the highest level of frankly immersion breaking behaviour (which is also entirely forgiveable, its why the place exists).  But as a result of that, it often requires a firm hand, and that hand is the garda as the DM's cannot (nor should they) be continually present to simply keep people in line.

As a result, the sense of danger, regardless of who you are, is maintained.  Be you on the side of extreme good or extreme evil, or simply highly chaotic, and you're going to have to be careful, and in so doing also respect the setting and your place in it, and the garda are necessary for that.  They need to be strong.  But they are not, as has been noted, 'too' strong.  AMPC's massacre them.  I've seen a single lvl 15 character drop two potions and take out over two dozen garda without taking a scratch.  They are strong perhaps, but they aren't overwhelming.  For a force that has as many enemies as they do, they do remarkably, wonderfully well with limited resources.  But levels are pretty much the only edge that they have.

The garda are frustrating, difficult, and often obnoxious.  But they are -supposed- to be.  Honestly, a stronger garda makes the setting itself stronger.  The sense of oppression and frustration and even hopelessness is, to me (by this point) a major underpinning to the overall atmosphere of the setting.  To make them weaker so we can feel stronger as a player base is, I think, missing a fundamental core aspect of what the experience is supposed to involve in Vallaki.  Yes, it can be hair tearingly frustrating to get your butt handed to you by them.  But that's the risk you take when you start making moves that attract their attention.  Consequences need to exist here, and they need to be forceful.  Garda should be viewed as dangerous for them to function, and if this is the best option to make sure of that, then I think it should stay that way.


Note:  Pardon if I blather here.  Fighting a nasty headache as I wrote this.

EDIT:  Iridni, I think that rule exists with discretion.  Its primary purpose is in regards to the use of killing named NPC's I believe.  Killing a garda is one thing.  Trying to kill Lizuca is quite something else.

+1, couldn't have said it better myself if I tried.

And as for the NPC thing, in regards to Vallaki Garda NPC's if an NPC is following say me and I get in a fight the NPC's will rush to defend me, so it's pretty much free game in regards to that. If you decide to slay all the Garda NPC on the wall because you feel like it and no one is around, that isn't generally met very well and you may need to explain yourself to the DM's if it gets their attention.

[APorg]

On the face of it, I would agree that NPC Garda being level 10 or thereabouts might seem over the top. But one must consider that there's a certain factor of level inflation across the whole server.

The ghosts in the Ghastrian church are at least level 20. (I know this, because they would instantly kill my level 10 cleric with PotM's version of Word of Faith, where anyone with level -10 HD under the caster instantly dies.) In some dungeons, they're even higher, I believe. Many NPCs also have had their levels adjusted upwards, AFAIK. As Nem said, this is done because this is a persistent server, and to maintain the appropriate sense and themes of dread, the threat has to be dialed up.

[TheGrinningHound]

We should have a DM chime in, then.

I agree that simply walking up to NPC's and killing them requires supervision. But if a faction member uses faction NPC guards as followers, it's really not much different than that faction player using say.. summoned creatures. They are subordinate faction NPC's, and while under the control of the faction PC should be considered simply an extension of that player character.

This is pretty common sense. It's very telling to me that in the links you've posted, none of them at all mention anything about NPC's that are under the command of players.

Even if you were right, and that any NPC's that a player commands to follow him cannot be harmed whatsoever, under any circumstances, without DM supervision.... that would basically be giving a player total and 100% immunity to conflict without DM supervision. And that's just not how it is. Has every player who has ever resisted a Garda arrest been banned for rulebreaking? No.

Also, as a faction player myself, I know that I have the ability to set a player to faction dislike, as well. It's not to be used willy-nilly, or just because I dislike a player (That's stated in the rules of it use), but I can use it without DM supervision to set my faction NPC guards to attack a player, if a situation required it. And I also know that in doing so, I can't simply report to the DM's that the player who got attacked by my guards fought back, and broke NPC rules. That just doesn't make sense.

In fact, I just went and looked at my faction forums and found the rules and guidelines for NPC followers (Posted by DM's). The only relevant stipulations are that NPC followers are not supposed to be used for dungeoning, or killing NPC's. It says nothing about them being attacked by players, and you having to report to the DM's that there was a rulebreak.


Generally speaking, the reason we have rules that say that you can't kill NPC's without DM supervision is because:
- There aren't an accurate amount of NPC's available in the module. Even if you killed all the peasants in a village, it's not representative of a population, or how such a population would react to mass murder.
- Non-generic, specific NPC's have specific importance and reactions.
- NPC's aren't usually scripted to react properly.
- There aren't systems in place to account for your vile actions and how it would be received by other NPC's.


The thing is-- Ravenloft takes care of most of these problems by having the OCR system, and the faction tool for faction NPC's. It's still generally against the rules to kill NPC's, probably more because the first and second reason than any of the others. But the OCR system and faction tool system were both designed so that the world would react without DM supervision to some of what you're doing. That's literally their intent.

If I get attacked by a guard due to my OCR, I can defend myself. If I get attacked by NPC guards that are being specifically controlled by a player, I can defend myself.

[Arawn]

If a player has active control of NPCs, you don't need a DM present.

[Blight]

@Nemesis24

I appreciate how much you've idealized the Vallaki Guard, but there's quite a bit in your message that's conjecture.

Vallaki Guardsmen are not "Strahd's." They don't work for the Count. Guards who walk around saying that they do are simply trumping themselves up. The Count didn't hire the Guards, he doesn't pay the Guards, and he doesn't care about the Guards. What Strahd cares about is his taxes. He has is own army. He allowed certain prominent and wealthy individuals to maintain land holdings in exchange for giving them the responsibility of collecting taxes from said land. Those people are the Burgomeisters. Those individuals hired Guards for the sole purpose of protecting themselves, the taxes they collect, and the land they keep. But those guards aren't working for the Count. They are responsible for enforcing Strahd's Three Laws, but that is the maximum extent of their relationship with the Count. Aside protecting the Vistani, they have no real or unique commands that come from Strahd.

Also, the population of all of Barovia is under 30,000. The population of Vallaki is much smaller. It's a backwater town, barely even large enough to be considered a city. And the Vallaki Guard simply NOT considered legendary or feared as such. The Vallaki Guard are little more than paid thugs. They have poor training, are uneducated, and most of them, including officers, don't even have the ability to read and write. They are disorganized, likely spend most of their time drunk, and generally pretty brutish. Most of them were farmers before they became Guard, and they're simply not very skilled at what they do, because at the end of the day it's a small town and nobody really cares to make them into anything more. It's not an army. It's a village guard.

If you're a foreigner, they're likely to rob you, throw you in jail for no reason, or wail on you with a stick because they're bored. They aren't intended to be as militarized as we represent them on our server, and it's not grounded in canon lore. They have a limited number of laws and their job is to make sure that they don't get broken, nothing more.

But, I digress. At the end of the day, the setting of the server is not affected whatsoever by reducing the level of NPC Guards. It will have no negative effects on roleplay. Those who are going to murder Guards are still going to do it, and whether they are level 10 or level 5 makes virtually no difference. Those level 10 Guards are simply keeping low-level Guards mechanically "safe" and free from repercussion when in conflict with low level characters. The purpose of the Guard is not to teach players that the first 10 levels of their character, the Guard has the upper hand and then afterwards they can go ham. That's the mindset that creates.

To argue that it's necessary to keep the level where it is... well, it's contradictory. From what i've seen, nobody has been able to successfully defend the level of NPC Guards for any In character reasons, citing that it's necessary to preserve the setting. But, how is that true? It doesn't create any sort of balance. The power in the Vallaki Guard lies in their numbers, the Burgomeister, their citadel, their ability to dig into deep pockets and issue a bounty on anybody that pisses them off, and that they have the city on their side. Insisting that mechanically the NPCs need to be level 10 for the purpose of "maintaining atmosphere'' is, no offense to anybody, a pretty lazy defense. We are roleplayers and the strength of the Guard lies IN their roleplay, not their mechanics.

Again, have a look at the Bounty Board. Count the numbers of bounties issued and the numbers of criminals that have been caught. The number is so illogically high that in my opinion the Guard have MASSIVELY more strength than they need or even should have. It's not even reflective of the setting. There's not even a MODERN day police force that have a conviction rate that high. Clearly they're doing just fine, and the level of NPCs has nothing to do with it.