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Cheesy builds and the level rules

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Iridni Ren:
First some background as a spoiler. I'm putting it in for those who are interested in my motivation, but I don't want to discuss the particular case. I want to make a general point.Spoiler: show

Way back in January - February when I was leveling like gangbusters I realized Iridni was not built the best in the world: too much charisma, not enough wisdom. Someone suggested to me that good feats for her would be Divine Might and Divine Shield. So I looked into those and the word "divine" got me thinking also about the Divine Champion prestige class for her because she was never going to be a great pure cleric.

Then I noticed that she couldn't do that without an AB she would get only at 10th level. That meant it would be very hard for her to multiclass if she was turned down on her DC app. I was talking about this in chat and Bastellus said: 1) she could apply even before the AB was high enough; 2) the level cap didn't apply to Prestige Classes.

The second answer wasn't completely reassuring because I still realized that meant I would have to get approved for a prestige class or reach a dead end with her down the road. But it made me feel a little less resentful about the 30-day reapplication deadline (which is really 40 days because the CC takes 10 days to evaluate your app, and in my case actually took more than 10 days).

If you're 10th level and apply you have to hang fire for 40 days about leveling. From 7th (the first time I applied) to 10th, I actually had to slow down Iridni's development because of fear these mechanics would not be allow her to evolve into the character I wanted her to be. Even though she wanted to be a Divine Champion, she had to refrain from high XP things like adventuring and combat!

IC she spent a lot of time just hanging around the Lodge talking to people. Some Divine Champion.

Okay, that's my story. Now the point:

In chat it has been clarified that the 10 level difference rule has no exceptions, not even for Prestige Classes to prevent cheesy builds such as one level of Shadow Dancer. I understand all that.

But!!

1) A level is not a level. To get to level 2 on this server costs nothing as we all begin at level 2. In contrast to get to level 11 costs 10,000 XP (the difference between 10th and 11th). To get to 20th level costs 19,000 XP.

2) In time they are not equal. This is more difficult to measure because people play at different rates, but for the same level of activity a character will level much more slowly down the road than at the beginning.

3) In usefulness over the life of a character they are not equal. What you do at 1st and 2nd lasts for your whole career. Twentieth level may have zero usefulness to you as you may never reach it but it will definitely be toward the end.

The conclusion from the above is that cheesy builds are mostly cheesy when someone take cheesy levels to start rather than at the end. The Prestige Classes somewhat prevent that by having prerequisites and having to be applied for. You can't start as a Shadow Dancer for two levels and then switch into something else, but if you could, that would be an example of a build that reaped immediate, longterm benefits at the cost of minimal time and XP.

In contrast, if a 15th level rogue decided, "I'd kind of like something fancy at the end of my character's life," and took Shadow Dancer for the last five levels, that doesn't affect game balance nearly as much.

Not that many rogues are going to be in that situation, for one thing. You would have to make it to high level and stay dedicated to the rogue concept. In other words, I think that the PC's longevity on a difficult, RP-based server  is already a testament to not being a cheeser much more than what someone can cook up on an application.

For casting classes the benefits are even less from a cheese perspective. A 14th level who goes for a prestige class is giving up her next level of spells. Since she has to put five levels in the prestige class eventually, she is giving up her two highest circles. I don't think anyone would do that lightly to be first level in the baddest of bad prestige classes except for the character concept.

It would hardly affect game balance at all because I don't think there's any prestige class that the first level of is more valuable than the 12th level of some other class. (If there is, then game balance is already whack because PCs who are not in that prestige class must all be getting screwed.)

Another proof that it does not affect game balance is this: 15-5 builds are allowed.

If a 15-5 build is not over-powered, then it is impossible to believe a 15-1 is over-powered.

In conclusion, the way the rule would be logically coherent is to say that, if you multiclass, you cannot take levels in a class that will increase the gap between the two classes to more than 10. But if you already have 10 or more levels in a class, decreasing that gap is allowed.

There is no logical consistency in saying a player can go 2 rogue then 12 wizard, but cannot go 12 wizard then 2 rogue. Why would one be more OP or cheesier than the other when they arrive at the same 12/2 wizard/rogue build?

Iridni Ren:

--- Quote ---There is no logical consistency in saying a player can go 2 rogue then 12 wizard, but cannot go 12 wizard then 2 rogue. Why would one be more OP or cheesier than the other when they arrive at the same 12/2 wizard/rogue build?
--- End quote ---

For reasons explained in the first part of my post, if anything, I think the allowed path is actually cheesier/OP.

booksarefun666:
I think what they've done is trying to squash the NWN meta - things like 19 sorc/ 1 paladin or it's evil variant 19 sorc/1 black guard and the five level splash forces you to miss out on the final class of spells. This five level mandate hurts spellcasters way more than it does more physical classes and doesn't make nearly as much sense in the context of a rogue.

If I'm a wizard I can't splash in any classes at all in order to get time stop or gate. A rogue still get all their things with that set up and a fighter can still splash into 5 rogue for tumble and other utility access and I think it's fine personally, not too draconian like paladin and monk can be where it requires you to go through the CC to prestige class if you want to multi class at all.

Now of course, that means that a new POTM meta will take it's place which rarely ever gets realized because max level isn't achieved by everyone but it's way less killer than the nwn meta. Think 1 monk/19 cleric, you don't need to have platemail anymore and that 14 str hump with clerics isn't that annoying while still reaping everything a cleric gets at max level.

The PrCs aren't amazing, they're just neat role-play enhancers and more snowflakey when they're gated behind people with a long, annoying process -- with only a notable exceptions like RDD/pale master. Even then, pale master sucks in the context of playing a spellcaster.

Fortunately, I think you'll need a fair bit of levels in all of these PrCs to make them worthwhile but in your particular example: A 19 cleric/1 divine champ or 17 cleric/3 divine champ is now essentially reaping all the rewards of cleric and gets access to final tier spells while having paladin abilities (smite evil/lay on hands) with none of the alignment strings attached. The 5 level gap is meant to grill spellcasters is what I'm getting  from having ran theory builds.

Iridni Ren:
Sorry if I don't respond to everything you wrote because I'd like to stay focused :)

Many of the examples you cite are prevented with the 5-level minimum rule, so the 10-level difference isn't needed to prevent them.


--- Quote ---The PrCs aren't amazing, they're just neat role-play enhancers and more snowflakey when they're gated behind people with a long, annoying process
--- End quote ---

This actually supports my point. You can't get a PrC class without an application already, so (once more) the 10-level max is irrelevant. The five-level rule prevents the specific examples you give should the application be approved.

My view of PrCs (and I think a supportable one by both their name and the need for prerequisites) is they're based on accomplishments. As such, they're something a character should grow into, rather than the player thinking 10 levels ahead, "Oh, I have to do this, or that won't work out." Like enchantment, they could give high levels something to think about as their characters head toward the homestretch. Instead, if you're an 11th level whatever, your fate is baked.

The current rule discourages such spontaneous, organic growth, while encouraging dipping at the beginning with an eye toward one's eventual build.

In a real setting there would always be those who started out with a given set of abilities, went as far as those abilities could take them, and then developed a different "muscle" because they could no longer progress beyond their earlier achievements. So you have the wizard who is not quite smart enough to master 9th circle spells but has always had a hankering to pick up the lute, for example.

The goal of the 10-level rule is to prevent certain builds. But most of those builds are prevented already through the 5-level rule. What the 10-level rule prohibits is certain paths to certain builds. It can force a player down only one path in her character's development, rather than leaving open many roads.


--- Quote ---A 19 cleric/1 divine champ or 17 cleric/3 divine champ is now essentially reaping all the rewards of cleric and gets access to final tier spells while having paladin abilities (smite evil/lay on hands) with none of the alignment strings attached. The 5 level gap is meant to grill spellcasters is what I'm getting  from having ran theory builds.
--- End quote ---

Responding to this only because it has a lot wrong in it.

Lay on hands: it is per class level modified by charisma. If you take only 1 level in DC, Mr. 20th level, you are going to be healing maybe four points with this awesome feat. Why a cleric (with access to healing magic) is OP'd by such you'll have to explain to me :P

You cannot smite evil at all with DC if you do 19/1.  It is also class-level-dependent. If you did a 17/3 build, you add 3 whole points to damage. For that you give up 18th, 19th, and 20th levels in cleric?

None of that really is on point, though, because the five-level rule prevents the builds you suggest.

(As for five and 10 as limits, I'm pretty sure they were chosen for no greater reason than we have five fingers on one hand and 10 in total :P )

booksarefun666:
Yeah, you got me. I'm not staff anyway so I shouldn't of had comment on the thought process being the rule being made up.

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