Author Topic: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update  (Read 4771 times)

Legion XXI

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Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« on: April 17, 2017, 09:21:00 PM »
So I brought this up in the Developer Query discord chat earlier- I'd like to make a quick suggestion for the "Rogue Only" or Shady Looking Man vendors.  I really like these vendors and the idea behind them, but I feel like most of the selection on them might have been set up for a much earlier time in the server's history where better gear wasn't as prevalent as it is today.  In that line of thinking, I have suggestions for an update if the Dev team feels like one is in order.  (I'm trying not to be too spoiler-ish with the merchants and their names/exact locations/specific bonuses on gear, but I can edit things to reflect that if you want)

Traps -   Most of the traps on these merchants are "Minor" traps, and have a pretty high price tag relative to the extreme low level they'd be useful at.  Adding selections of even "Average" traps would do a lot for low-mid level rogues who need extra options for defense or PvP (because of the price tag on traps sold from vendors, they're not likely being used heavily in dungeons outside of maybe 'boss' encounters).  Adding up to "Strong" would even ensure that higher level rogues have a reason to come back to these merchants. (Edit - Strong is probably too powerful for area, suggesting Average, as well as player craftable trap kits and advanced trap kits)

Rogue Gear - There are 2 different shadowed hoods that give a lower and a higher amount of hide, though they're both out in Port-a-Lucine.  Any Rogues who are based in Barovia (Gundarakites, Garda, RVT, ect) have to run out there to buy one.  While that's not a terribly big deal, it's pretty OOC and I feel like there's no real reason the shady merchants in Vallaki wouldn't be able to get their hands on this kind of product - especially merchants who basically only sell to thieves. 

Aside from the hoods, there are the special daggers that give a bonus to disable trap/pickpocket that could be welcome additions.  Especially in Vallaki where you have less skill points to fall back on in places like Tergs that start to get the tougher traps.  Also, Lock Picker's friends.  There is already a place to buy these, and while it is very accessible, these just feel like an item that a Rogue-Only vendor would want to sell as well.

Rogues Gloves are also available from a shop in Port-a-Lucine, though it's just a normal shop and this gear isn't in any of the rogue only shops.  Same as above, it feels like an item they'd definitely carry.  As it stands, the guy who has these gloves is a better rogue vendor than ALL the rogue-only shops.  He's got better traps, better gear, and will sell to any PC, rogue or no.  It makes the rogue only shops feel more like flavor than anything actually useful.

A Lockpicking belt or Thieves Utility belt would also be cool.  The second one is available in a shop in the Vallaki area, but I figured I'd throw it in here since it fits with the theme of the store and makes sense.

Scrolls/Magic Items - The vendor in Degannwy sells nature scrolls including One with the Land and Camouflage.  You constantly see underworld/sneak players tromping through elf-town to buy bags of these, it seems much more IC for these shady merchant guys to market things like that to their clients.  They already sell scrolls, so this wouldn't be new, they'd just sell BETTER scrolls that people actually use.  A final suggestion would be maybe some of the weakest weight reduction bags or something, since most rogues have crap STR and the weakest bags are already in shops in the mod that are available to the public.  This is exactly the kind of item that rogues want to carry around, especially when low level looting.

Level Restriction - I don't know if this is possible, but if it is, it would be neat.  Could a second conversation option (Something like [Show me your special stock]) be added for people who have more than 5 levels in Rogue, or at least 1 level in a PrC like Assassin or Shadow Dancer?  That cuts out the skill dumpers and low level characters who have lots of money from using the store.  What I imagine for this section is that they have all the stuff the base store has, but maybe better versions.  This is where I'd put this like strong traps, the weakest weight bag, rogue gloves, the stronger hide hood, ect.


In closing: What I have suggested is just making certain items commonly used by rogue players more readily available in the Rogue-Only stores.  All of the items I have suggested to be placed in the shops can ALREADY be bought at other stores who sell to anyone and don't require keys/faction access.  All this would do is save a bit of time and OOCness of running to places like Degannwy and Port to hit those specific vendors.  The rogue merchants are cool, and I really like the concept, but they are outshined in every way by some other merchants who are willing to sell to anyone.  To me, it stands to reason that if a merchant is restricted to a small group of people, it has every reason to be at least on par (but maybe better) as the ones who sell to anyone, otherwise there is no incentive to use them.  Especially at the very high price they charge compared to other merchants.

I understand that possibly a reason the Port guys sell better gear is that players are expected to be a higher level by the time they reach that place and maybe you don't want that stuff floating around Vallaki.  Though with the current server availability of gear and ability to sell herbs easily 2k a box, what ends up happening is I often see level 2-4 rogues sell 2 boxes of herbs, then make the OOC dash to Port to buy the necessary rogue gear with no IC explanation of how they even know about these "secret" vendors.  It's just become common practice and the spawns on the road are easily avoidable for experienced players who know how to run them.  Also, all of the gear I'm suggesting to be added gives +1s to skills, with the exception of the stronger hide hood.  To me it really doesn't feel "overpowered" for the Vallaki area, even when considering the implications of stacking the bonuses.  Also, it's going to be locked for rogues only, which is a notoriously weak class at those low levels, especially considering that ML Crypts and Tergs (two of the 'staple' low level dungeons) are entirely undead.

-Edited to be more ambiguous with item names and accompanying stats
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 02:42:58 PM by Legion XXI »

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2017, 10:41:23 PM »
First the scroll, I think it makes more sense the elf in Degannwy sell those scrolls since they could very be the one who makes them. And I also don't like the idea of making scroll easier to get for rogues. If it was my choice and my choice alone, no NPC would be selling scroll since it's suppose to be a low magic setting. That said the scroll in question aren't that high level so it is still not bad and very much plausible.

The rogue gear, that one is tricky, I first thought it was a good idea, but when I was writing the scroll part I thought... I don't like the idea of giving access to the scroll easier, so why would I want the gear to be easier to access. IC'ly what you says makes sense to me with the knowledge I have. Though, sometime we have to consider OOC effect and stuff like that when taking decisions like this I personally don't think giving easier access to those gear is a good idea. IC'ly I also think the current situation, I could very well see higher level rogue taking advantage of this and coming back to Vallaki to sell that gear to the lower level. It could also make good adventure RP... a group of low level who have heard about that gear being only available in Port plan a trip there to go buy the gear or something alike. Selling the gear in Vallaki just kills that opportunity. And last thing, I don't like the idea of giving an easier access to better gear for low level. As it is right if they want better gear they need to get it through RP and I like this way.

The traps... I think it makes sense. Average and strong trap could be added and I currently do not see any real downside to this. Traps are cool! They're annoying when you step on them, but I think that if use well they can be great for PvP RP, I myself stepped on a trap setup by a player a few times and I think it was great that people were using them.

Finally the level restriction, I simply do like that idea... it reminds of items with level restriction and I simply do not like it. I love the rogue only shop and I think it was a really good idea to add them, it gives more purposes to being a rogue. Though I do not see why we should add an secondary shop with a lvl restriction on it.


It's pretty late here as I write this, so sorry for butchering grammar, forgetting words, etc.


All that said, I'd like to know what you think of my point of view Legion, you seems to know much more than me about those shady shops and I might be wrong on certain things :P
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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2017, 10:52:30 PM »
Can't argue with any quality of life changes.
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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 11:21:21 PM »
Can't argue with any quality of life changes.

Sums it up.

Also consider that it's not exactly "hard" to get access to these things so you wouldn't really be making it "easier".  You'd be making it more convenient, as well as making a bit more sense IC for some people.



Legion XXI

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2017, 11:37:54 PM »
Hey, thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate you giving this a look.

As for my own experience with this, I'll put it this way-  I made a rogue character 2 days ago.  He's a gundarakite.  I've already made enough money to buy all of this stuff from selling herbs and doing deliveries, and sometime today I'll probably just sprint out to Port-a-Lucine and buy it all from the merchant there.  Then I'll come back to Vallaki and keep playing my character as normal, and try not to talk about the time I decided to run all the way to Port-a-Lucine to a secret back alley merchant because he's the only guy in the whole core with the technology to have hoods that hide you better or gloves that help you disable traps.  It's not an issue of "availability", because you can make the round trip in like 30 minutes on a level 2 character with minimal risk if you travel by day.  It's just quality of life.  Why would these shady merchants, who's entire function is to specifically sell to rogues, not sell the items that rogues actually want and use?  Especially when their competition does sell those items.

The vendors in Vallaki sell rings that give a lore bonus, minor traps, and black dye.  That's basically it.  The only scrolls they sell are Identify and Find Traps.  With Identify being done by the Vistani now, the scrolls are like 10x more expensive than most items end up being.  Nobody will use them, especially not in a low level area like Vallaki.  There is absolutely zero hide/ms gear (not even the hide bonus and MS bonus boots that the NPC in the marketplace sells.  They have LESS stealth gear than the commoner's clothing NPC and the New Character Area NPC both.  This selection is less than useless, even for my level 3 character.  Even the starting shop in the new character area sells a hide bonus hood!  I have never and will never use those shady merchants in their current state (aside from rings of insight, but there are even cheaper stores to get those in).  It's a super cool idea, and I really WANT to use them, but they don't actually sell anything rogues would need.  They are eclipsed by other, non-rogue NPCs both in Vallaki and Port-a-Lucine.  Even the Drain merchant NPC sells more rogue gear than they do.  The one out in Wachter territory is even worse, he doesn't even sell the rings of insight or black dye.  Just normal shortswords, normal daggers, and minor traps.

-Edited to not have item names with accompanying stats
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 11:55:11 PM by Legion XXI »

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2017, 12:13:35 AM »
Traps.
I thinking it is good to add only average traps but not strong ones. 
After some point it is more easy to find few places with many traps which is beyond than 'average' and collect this traps. And I'm not sure what 'strong' trap it is something what some shady merchant can easy have.
Some rogues selling dungeon traps to NPC merchants, some just collecting them. So selling more better traps it is nice opportunity for another characters do shady things and not give it to NPC.

Gear and scroll.
Personally I think it will be nice add some scrolls, not just everything what uses rogue but some, yes. Like 'invisibility' or 'true strike' in Vallaki one.
What about other gear and point about Port-a-Lucine.
If 2 level rogue sells 5 boxes of herbs and runs to Port-a-Lucine it is only player problem what his character in very rush need make long run and surprisely quickly find 'first time' shady merchant and runs back like it is nothing happened. And it is also includes 'bags'. It is nothing forbids same 2 level rogues sell more boxes of herbs and buy lesser magic bags in Port-a-Lucine.
I had experience when player know perfectly recipes for herbalism but still very nice plays character which is don't know any recipes and about herbs. So it is all depends only how to play character. If character can't live without using of meta-knowledge then it is only left this little troubles in gold and distance. If character can ignore and forgive about all this meta then character can jump in some RP what can leads to seeking knowledge and other things.
It is true what Vallaki one merchant have lack of some shadow stuff what is selling all other Vallaki(and elven) merchants and need perhaps some little improve but only little in my opinion.

Level Restriction.
Perhaps add or replace some of merchants in more hidden place or behind secret doors what requiers 'search' or 'open lock' and setup DC of this 'level restriction' sounds more better than base it on character rogue levels?

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2017, 12:29:23 AM »
I've played a few roguish type characters so I'll add my thoughts.

First the scroll, I think it makes more sense the elf in Degannwy sell those scrolls since they could very be the one who makes them. And I also don't like the idea of making scroll easier to get for rogues. If it was my choice and my choice alone, no NPC would be selling scroll since it's suppose to be a low magic setting. That said the scroll in question aren't that high level so it is still not bad and very much plausible.

I think Legion's suggestion was less about making scrolls easier to access and more about creating a thematically appropriate way for rogues and shady types to buy their stealth scrolls. Adding Camouflage and a Lightstep scrolls to a rogue vendor would increase foot traffic there. Degannwy which is a mere two zones south of the outskirts so you're really not making it anymore or less difficult, just bring foot traffic into Vallaki which I think could be beneficial for RP. You could keep the One with the Land scrolls just in Degannwy as a niche item though. Speaking from personally experience, it always feel a bit awkward showing up in degannwy just to buy Stealth scrolls.

To Legions point about gear and where it's sold
 
There is absolutely zero hide/ms gear (not even the hide bonus and MS bonus boots that the NPC in the marketplace sells.  They have LESS stealth gear than the commoner's clothing NPC and the New Character Area NPC both.  This selection is less than useless, even for my level 3 character.  Even the starting shop in the new character area sells a hide bonus hood!  I have never and will never use those shady merchants in their current state (aside from rings of insight, but there are even cheaper stores to get those in).  It's a super cool idea, and I really WANT to use them, but they don't actually sell anything rogues would need.

They do actually sell +2 hide hoods in Vallaki, just not where'd you would expect it- The armor smith on the south side of the Market District. The same could be said for the +2 Hide Cloaks which are again, only available in Degannwy. Moving them to some of the rogue merchants or adding thematically appropriate mirrors might be a good way to fix it. +1 Gloves of the Rogue are available from NPC merchants in Port and could be add somewhere in Barovia. Perhaps leave the Lamoridan Pocketknife in the Port's Black Market again as a niche item that might encourage people to travel abroad?

As for traps, adding the basic craft trap kits that could be loaded with varnishes would be a huge boon. There is no reason why they wouldn't exist in Barovia. I'd also say adding certain strong traps would be ok- The acid blob, fire and electrical types might be a bit much though. You have to consider the intended level range for the area. Those traps have the potential to one shot several PCs at once.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 01:30:47 AM by Philos »

Legion XXI

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2017, 02:23:57 AM »
Yeah, with the traps I never figured Strong would make the cut but the loose strategy was to ask for it, and hopefully end up with Average as a middle ground  :lol:

As far as the gear thing - I actually didn't know about the hood, never thought to check the armory of all places.  Still, this shady merchant is being one-upped on sneak gear by a blacksmith now.  How embarrassing.  And as for Degannwy, that's like half the reason I made this post.  I know you can get the hide cloak there, as well as the camo/one with the land scrolls, but it's obnoxious to keep seeing Caliban, Barovian, Borcan, and Gundarakite criminal underworlders running into pixie and elf land and buying stacks of scrolls, just to run out and pretend they've never been there.  Again, these shady merchants, who are mechanically locked to only sell to rogues, don't sell any rogue gear.  That's the main issue for me here.  They don't sell anything at all with hide, ms, open lock, or either of the trap skills.  Yet tons of merchants around them do.

As far as the argument of "don't be such a powergamer, worry less about gear, and just play your PC"  goes, here's my thing-  I've got max skill in disable trap and open lock for my level, yet I'm unable to get any of the doors in the ML crypt, any of the chests in the werewolf cave (unless minimum spawn), and the only locked chest in the shadow woods (unless on minimum spawn).  Disable trap tends to be ok, as long as I'm encountering minor traps.  I'm definitely in no position to recover any traps until I am over-leveled for an area, since it adds so much to the DC and we've got only a very few items that boost disable trap.  The point is: while I could get a "good RPer" gold star by just playing my PC without all this gear, it's going to be useless to my permanently level 2 self because nobody wants to bring the rogue along on a dungeon who can't actually deal with the chests/traps for his level range.  Most players are going to go for any edge they can get, especially if the cost is something so easy as a short run to Port and about 2-3k.  If you don't also do it, you're always going to be second pick to those guys.

As for player crafted trap kits, that could be useful too.  I know they've been updated since I last looked into it, but does crafting a trap still require leveling up 3 different craft skills?  Last time I talked to some crafters about it, the consensus was that it's way too much work and way too narrow of a market to be worth it.  Which makes sense, considering I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever seen a player selling crafted traps.  It's just way more lucrative to make things like armor and weapons, that many players buy constantly.  Even out of all the active rogues, only a small number use traps.  An even smaller number use them regularly enough that they need to replace them often enough for a craftsman to feel like making more than a few is a good idea.  That's the main reason I was pushing for better non-crafted traps.

Edit - Got new information, see later post for correction/new suggestion
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 02:41:39 PM by Legion XXI »

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2017, 02:26:07 AM »
I don't agree, keeping things at a special or even hidden merchants makes them rarer and also more special for new players, if just about everyone can buy these things without even trying they become mundane. Also a few items you mentioned are, by my knowing, sold in higher level parts of the server because they are for higher level PC's.   
 
I had a lot of fun looking for the special stores, and places, and know for a fact that some players, or if the players are honest their PC's, don't know some special stores. Keeping it like this gives the server depth and motivates (new) players to RP while looking for new gear or buy things at PC merchants.

This feels to me only like a request to make the server easier on a OCC level and not chance it for the better.   
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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2017, 02:28:29 AM »
I am all for anything to make starting out as a rogue a little less tedious, especially now pickpocketing NPCs has become virtually useless.

Edit: I still think the point is pertinent, so I am not going to remove it, but I'll just say that now I've raised it, let's not turn this into a thread on the subject! :P
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 02:43:29 AM by emptyanima »

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2017, 04:09:21 AM »
I'd honestly really enjoy if a location existed that was accessible only by rogues/thieves similar to the location that exists on the server for wizards/sorcerers (being purposefully vague to avoid spoilers).  A place that serves as a fence and purveyor of illicit merchandise or wares that cater to those of a more clandestine lifestyle.  It could have a password of sorts and/or some set of trials like finding a secret door, disarming several traps, and unlocking a door/chest:  a thief's crucible.  It could work to establish an underworld element that is independent of the current factions and has no interest in getting involved in that.  Maybe a small detachment of displaced members of the Bard Guild from Darkon (just spit-balling) that are just interested in sowing discord by equipping thieves in a foreign land and/or keeping their ears out for any manner of secrets spilled whilst doing business.  You can make it level accessible based upon the skills required to gain access and/or being invited/guided by another thief that knows the way.  They can sell all the low level accessible rogue's gear mentioned before without forcing a someone through the Drain or RVT.  It could promote some additional underworld/unscrupulous roleplay and result in some interesting and engaging scenes between lower level rogues in Barovia.   Just a thought.

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2017, 05:27:05 AM »
I don't agree, keeping things at a special or even hidden merchants makes them rarer and also more special for new players, if just about everyone can buy these things without even trying they become mundane. Also a few items you mentioned are, by my knowing, sold in higher level parts of the server because they are for higher level PC's.   

That's just the point though. The items we're talking about are already mundane. They are the most basic and entry level items of the rogues trade- we're talking single point skill bonuses in order to make the first dungeons you enter possible. We're talking about how these "special" or "hidden" merchants don't actually sell these items and instead are found else where in areas that either don't make sense for them or are so far removed from the starting domain it places and unrealistic burden on player.

An adventure to a higher level domain with the possibility of better gear would be great- if it were actually better. There are no special +2 or 3 pocket knives available just because you ventured to Port. There are no better wire cutters to help you disable traps just because you managed to make it to Har-thelen. There are a few +1 items, available from merchants that will allow you to fill a slot. That's it. The basic, most mundane and entry level tools...ought to at least be available from specialty rogue merchants close to the starting area. 

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2017, 10:43:07 AM »
I'm pretty new to the server, and I've not levelled a rogue yet (although the apparent rogue shortage that I've encountered as Baern has me leaning toward levelling a rogue alt) but I get the OP's point about the logical disconnect of "shady vendors" having gear less appropriate for rogues than that which can be purchased from vendors in an obvious trade area with a giant sign in front of their shop (although apparently the blacksmith is a Shadowdancer, given his ability to Hide in Plain Sight!) 

I have spent a pretty significant amount of time playing around with the crafting system though - though admittedly almost exclusively on smelting, smithing arms & armor, and the leatherworking and woodworking skills to support those, and a bit on herbalism.  However, I do think some player crafted options would be really helpful here.  What if blacksmiths could make thieves' tools?  +1 for Iron, +2 for steel?  Maybe they can and I've just never seen the patterns... maybe the patterns could be added to the shady vendors?  This adds a reason for rogues to visit the rogue vendors frequently - to pick up patterns for their smithy suppliers or to use themselves.  It also helps with small bonuses for low level rogues who can't handle the DC's of locks in the starter dungeons.  Maybe a similar consumable item could be added and included in the crafting system to give a 1-time bonus to Disable Traps?  Like a "Trap Springer" tool or something?  In PnP (at least in 5th edition) one proficient with Thieves' Tools uses them for both purposes anyway....is it possible to modify the in-game tools items to add the bonus to both OL and DT?  (I mean, I know it's possible in the toolset - just wondering if it's something worth considering in-game w/out upsetting balance)  You have to have points invested in OL to use the tools at it is, so it's not like these are going to give any advantage to non-rogues.  And using consumables stimulates economy, as a gold-sink for rogues, and a repeat customer base for smiths. 

With regard to traps themselves, I've not attempted to craft any yet myself but requiring 3 seperate crafting skills to craft does seem a little cumbersome for a 1-use item...unless the DC's are all low to moderate (10-15).  Use of traps gives rogues some tactical options (I'm a terrible PVP'er, so I'm mainly looking at this from a PVE approach) for dealing with the multitude of sneak-attack immune enemies in DND, so the demand is there...there's an opportunity here as well for the robust crafting system to come to the rescue, and rely on the players to provide solutions rather than NPC's selling traps.  I *love* the idea of mixing varnishes in with trap crafting to create some of the elemental traps.  I would think that Divine damage traps would be a pretty popular option...maybe with Holy Water created by Cleric PC's or purchased from Church vendors?  I'm just brainstorming here.... the crafting system is just so well developed here, and I generally prefer looking for PC-driven solutions before NPC-driven ones whenever possible/logical.  Maybe trap patterns could be something else that these Shady Vendors could provide though...that makes logical sense. "The Man" isn't going to approve of normal vendors carrying these in their shops aside from the ones used in hunting game, and as with the tools diagram above, provides a consumable resource that would require frequent trips to the shady vendor to restock.

Probably something you could do with Herbalism and Poisons for rogues (and assassins, by extension) too....not 100% sure what that would look like, but it makes logical sense. 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 10:53:12 AM by BlueWizrobe »
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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2017, 11:08:33 AM »
I pretty much agree with Legion on everything except the scrolls. Iluvatar makes a good point there. I can see the elves there as the only ones who can make them. It's wierd for a native rogue vendor to be selling scrolls, even if sneaks use them all the time.
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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2017, 11:31:54 AM »
Quote
the apparent rogue shortage that I've encountered

I doubt there's a rogue server shortage. Maybe there aren't too many pure rogues, but I bet they're awfully common as a multiclass option. Half of my PCs have taken rogue levels. To me they have it good (fun-wise) because of their versatility, which makes up for not being able to whup much straight on (unless they multiclass).

At low levels it's tough because you have to take your first two in the same class. Then you kind of want the third level as rogue because of the boost to sneak attack. After that, though, they start to become more playable.

On topic, if this thieving gear is common (and becomes more common) in Barovia, I hope it's treated the same as guns and necromancy during garda searches. In other words, players have to reveal they have it, especially if they're carrying tons of traps and lockpicks with them or wearing a Batman utility belt of rogue tools.

The one thing I would not like to see result from any changes is the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. In other words, it becomes easier to be a beginning rogue if you have OOC knowledge of how to come by all these goodies that a true newbie does not have. To counter this, perhaps the new character setup shop could sell a couple of beginner items (like lockpicker's friend) at bargain prices. It would make sense that a 2nd level rogue might come into the Mists with something like that.

I recall a certain Dwarf merchant who will remain nameless sold the newbie Cailey two lockpicker friends for the bargain price of 600 gold each. :roll:
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 11:34:41 AM by Calliope »


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Sewerfish

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2017, 12:41:15 PM »
Generally think the rogue stores could use some revamping.

Level/alignment/class/origins/race/Stat (combined dex+int=+5) restricted stores could be fun. So many ways to limit access to dedicated rogues vs general public if desired.

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2017, 02:46:03 PM »
So I just spoke to Dread, who knows much more about the "new" trap crafting system than I do.

Apparently it was made much more accessible and no longer requires 3 crafts to make a trap, it's a very neat and perfectly viable thing in its current state.  Mechanically, the traps aren't really objectively "better" or "worse" than the vanilla nwn traps, both seem to have their advantages that make for an even trade-off. 

That being said, I'd still like Average level traps at least, but if we're worried about balance or vendor items eclipsing player made items, could we at least get the player craftable trap kits added?  That would be amazing, and could promote shady characters getting together and having their own exchange of crafted goods similar to the people who run armor and weapon shops.

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2017, 05:59:37 PM »
Quote
the apparent rogue shortage that I've encountered

I doubt there's a rogue server shortage. Maybe there aren't too many pure rogues, but I bet they're awfully common as a multiclass option. Half of my PCs have taken rogue levels. To me they have it good (fun-wise) because of their versatility, which makes up for not being able to whup much straight on (unless they multiclass).

At low levels it's tough because you have to take your first two in the same class. Then you kind of want the third level as rogue because of the boost to sneak attack. After that, though, they start to become more playable.

On topic, if this thieving gear is common (and becomes more common) in Barovia, I hope it's treated the same as guns and necromancy during garda searches. In other words, players have to reveal they have it, especially if they're carrying tons of traps and lockpicks with them or wearing a Batman utility belt of rogue tools.

The one thing I would not like to see result from any changes is the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. In other words, it becomes easier to be a beginning rogue if you have OOC knowledge of how to come by all these goodies that a true newbie does not have. To counter this, perhaps the new character setup shop could sell a couple of beginner items (like lockpicker's friend) at bargain prices. It would make sense that a 2nd level rogue might come into the Mists with something like that.

I recall a certain Dwarf merchant who will remain nameless sold the newbie Cailey two lockpicker friends for the bargain price of 600 gold each. :roll:

Very true there aren't many Pure Rogues. I know I have one and so while it seems like Rogues are on a shortage it's because everyone and their mother multi's into rogue so there is never really a NEED for a pure rogue.. [sighs] what to do with 9d6 sneak damage...

That said when I've often used Monica as a teacher for other rogues and have done many trades, picks for scrolls since she has had very little need for picks and use to get them like they were candy.

As for trap sellers, wit hwhere the area is located minor and average traps are pretty decent enough, there are places that sell strong and maybe one or two deadly but if you seek someone out maybe try and find other rogues that recover traps and might be willing to sell them.

gear? there is enough gear venders out there just need to look for em.

Now if there was rogue shops that had restrictions, might be nice. sells higher picks and traps. but require 6+ rogue levels.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 06:04:11 PM by Syl »

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2017, 01:00:21 AM »
redacted
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 06:52:46 PM by booksarefun666 »

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2017, 05:07:00 AM »
I think these changes would definitely be welcome in making the rogue merchants serve their purpose. I always thought it was odd a non rogue merchant would sell a better rogue item than a merchant who will only talk to you if the rogue class is taken. These are some nice quality of life proposals that I'd love to see around.
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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2017, 04:11:23 PM »
This is a nitpick, but I dislike the idea of a Rogues-only vendor because it's a bit of an OOC distinction. I think it would be better in principle to gate access to certain vendors using certain skills -- be it Influence, Disable Device, Set Traps, etc. That would have more IC logic behind it since it directly correlates to character capabilities.
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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2017, 04:28:34 PM »
This is a nitpick, but I dislike the idea of a Rogues-only vendor because it's a bit of an OOC distinction. I think it would be better in principle to gate access to certain vendors using certain skills -- be it Influence, Disable Device, Set Traps, etc. That would have more IC logic behind it since it directly correlates to character capabilities.

I never thought of this, and at first I was inclined to agree with you. But then it occurred to me that perhaps this is supposed to work IC based on Thieves' Cant? In other words, the rogue uses some special secret sign or word that the merchant recognizes?

(I don't recall the server's stance on Thieves' Cant.)

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2017, 04:35:48 PM »
IIRC Thieves' Cant wasn't in 3.0/3.5... and I believe PotM does not support it, or at least this post here seems to imply it's not.
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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2017, 06:40:53 PM »
A rogue only vendor wouldn't be a OOC thing.. There have always been shops in the world that specialize in certain things.. Shops that only deal with certain types of people.. or their wears are more focused towards them.


Like Victoria's secret or a skateboard shop...
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 10:28:07 PM by Syl »

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Ciaran999

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Re: Rogue Only Vendors - Suggested Merchandise Update
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2017, 03:05:27 PM »
IIRC Thieves' Cant wasn't in 3.0/3.5... and I believe PotM does not support it, or at least this post here seems to imply it's not.

Does this stop characters from using/inventing a cant and actually speaking in it? I'm not talking about "[ThC] Let's torture that guy" but rather "I think Mark needs to have tea with the pigs". Seems like it would be better if those using it spent time RPing what the TC terms mean instead of just assuming they understand each other from the get go; particularly with rogue characters from different realms.
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