You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)  (Read 3269 times)

Inti

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« on: February 20, 2017, 09:07:10 AM »
I would like to make a suggestion/request for adding a feat for Bards allowing them to acquire additional 1-2 languages, to enhance their cultural/literary/linguistic RP.  I would suggest a per-requisite of INT14 and perhaps a minimal CHA and lore skill too.


I'm quite open as to how this could be implemented and balanced and perhaps even made available to other classes, but the main point is that entertainment, lore and communication are all part of playing a Bard and the needed focus on CHA at expense of other stats  often renders them rather limited in terms of learning extra languages.


I would welcome others' thoughts on this and on whether you think introducing such a feat would have a positive effect on RP and game balance.
“What makes the desert beautiful,' said the little prince, 'is that somewhere it hides a well...”  ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

William Roberts

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 680
  • Thrown a kettle over a pub...what have you done?
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2017, 09:28:28 AM »
I like this suggestion:

* I wouldn't limit it to bards.

* I would make the INT requirement less because IRL many people who are not otherwise brilliant learn multiple languages at a rudimentary level. That is, they would be able to follow the kind of conversations we have in RP, although they might not be able to read or otherwise understand anything more complex. Perhaps 13 or even lower.

* Lore seems like a good skill to tie to it. How about taking the feat grants one extra language for every 5 (or 10?) points in base Lore skill?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 09:31:10 AM by William Roberts »


Beauty like a tightened bow, a kind that is not natural in an age like this.

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2017, 10:45:46 AM »
Bards have no reason to have more languages than high-INT wizards. Languages are still regulated by capacity for learning. Afraid we'll be sticking with canon.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

William Roberts

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 680
  • Thrown a kettle over a pub...what have you done?
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2017, 11:29:16 AM »
Quote
Bards have no reason to have more languages than high-INT wizards

That's a pretty sweeping statement that's tersely dismissive of all contrary opinions. Inti, in fact, gave a specific reason:

Quote
[E]ntertainment, lore and communication are all part of playing a Bard and the needed focus on CHA at expense of other stats  often renders them rather limited in terms of learning extra languages.

You may find the reason insufficient, but it's something to address, rather than be hand-waved away.

Personally, I'm not invested in this idea at all, as I've never felt limited in my RP by the current system. If sticking to canon is the justification for denying it, that's fine. I do prefer, however, looking for ways to say "yes" to new ideas and encouraging some creativity among the player base, rather finding any reason to dismiss them out of hand.

For that matter, if wizards are equivalent to scientists and bards are equivalent to writers and poets IRL, then I think there's quite a bit of reason to believe a facility for language would accrue more to the latter.

Polyglots are not necessarily at the high end of the bell curve in intelligence at all.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7754088:
Quote
Polyglot and non-polyglot Italian subjects were given tests assessing verbal (phonological) and visuo-spatial short-term and long-term memory, general intelligence, and vocabulary knowledge in their native language. Polyglots had a superior level of performance in verbal short-term memory tasks (auditory digit span and nonword repetition) and in a paired-associate learning test, which assessed the subjects' ability to acquire new (Russian) words. By contrast, the two groups had comparable performance levels in tasks assessing general intelligence, visuo-spatial short-term memory and learning, and paired-associate learning of Italian words. These findings, which are in line with neuropsychological and developmental evidence, as well as with data from normal subjects, suggest a close relationship between the capacity of phonological memory and the acquisition of foreign languages.

At the end of the day, though, I think this is a neat idea that doesn't seem hard to implement. If it breaks canon, well, I guess forget it then.


Beauty like a tightened bow, a kind that is not natural in an age like this.

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1796
  • dat boi
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2017, 11:56:37 AM »
The added functionality of the language system has been quite neat, but it's always seemed very bizarre to me this stringent idea that we cannot have a feat or something to assist in gaining additional languages for no other reason than a persistent claim that it must be based on your intelligence modifier.

I think it's pretty silly to limit the ability to learn a new language through roleplay (and then acquire it through a feat/skillpoint purchase) on a roleplay server.  Potm is the only server I've been on in 10 years of NWN that does such, and it's baffled me since the language system came out.

I personally think a feat would be great, or even a skill that could represent the knowledge of languages.  I wouldn't necessarily limit it to Bards though.



Zwickelfaust

  • The Gorefist
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1521
  • Catching natural 20s from monsters since birth.
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2017, 12:07:35 PM »
Bards have no reason to have more languages than high-INT wizards. Languages are still regulated by capacity for learning. Afraid we'll be sticking with canon.

It is true that a character it's limited by its capacity to learn. There is a simple solution to this though. When you roll your character for the first time, sink the necessary points into INT. Now, instead of choosing some of your languages through creation, just save those language slots. That way, through good old fashioned rp, you can learn said languages and add the slots as you go. You could also add points to your INT while leveling up.
Hjorta the Heartless- Seidr Wight
Allek Mars- Dawnbringer
Asmund Ingvar- Berserker Runemaster

Nightmare

  • Squatbold
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 972
  • Reality Unhinged
"Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft

dark_majico

  • Guest
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2017, 04:57:26 AM »
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm

Yeah I'll come out and say it, we don't need a bunch of Mary Sue's who can speak every language the world has ever known because they put a few points in a skill on level up.

Bards have no reason to have more languages than high-INT wizards. Languages are still regulated by capacity for learning. Afraid we'll be sticking with canon.

Right on sister  :fonzie:

William Roberts

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 680
  • Thrown a kettle over a pub...what have you done?
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 09:00:35 AM »
Yeah I'll come out and say it, we don't need a bunch of Mary Sue's who can speak every language the world has ever known because they put a few points in a skill on level up.

An argument based on a somewhat sexist aspersion is not much of an argument at all. Your use of "Mary Sues" is not precise to its meaning:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

The reason I find your language sexist is the behavior in question has no gender association per se, but you are using a term with a feminine gender connotation to critique it. "Special snow flakes" is more likely what you mean.

In any case, it would be better to argue game balance, immersion, etc. rather than what "we need."  As in the other thread about shield feats where you say "this isn't what the Prisoners project is about," that's a personal preference you are using rhetoric to universalize, rather than considering that others may have differing views from yours.

We RP that Perform can apply to every musical instrument ever known, as well as drawing, dancing, acting, and whatever else we want. We assume that with a certain set of feats a fighter becomes skilled with every conceivable weapon. Through crafting it is possible for a character to master diverse skills in a host of disciplines in just a few months. Do you have an objective reason that language needs to be treated differently?

What bothers me about posts like the above is the fear of true diversity underneath them. That is, they imply that only one view of RP is correct. Again, if polyglots break atmosphere, upset game balance, are difficult to implement, etc., those are legitimate criticisms. Characterizing someone else's preferred RP as acting like a "Mary Sue"  I don't find persuasive.


Beauty like a tightened bow, a kind that is not natural in an age like this.

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1796
  • dat boi
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2017, 09:45:11 AM »
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm

Yeah I'll come out and say it, we don't need a bunch of Mary Sue's who can speak every language the world has ever known because they put a few points in a skill on level up.

Why?  We already have a bunch of master stealth experts, duelists, loremasters, and performers and we are going to keep getting more.   All because they "put a few points in a skill on level up".

This is literally one of the fundamental mechanics of the game you are playing. It sounds to me more that you have a personal objection to how certain people chose to play the game rather than an objective mechanical argument for why the skill is bad. Which is fine, but it's not a fair measure of why the skill may or may not be balanced.



Phantasia

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1337
  • ¿
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2017, 10:17:55 AM »
DnD is meant to be a far cry from the real world, and even in the real world, there are people who can speak 10+ languages rather accurately, with regular use and brushing up. In DnD, I imagine this is easily much more, especially in a world ruled by /magic/ where there is a Bard SPELL that lets you interpret and speak ANY language.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:20:36 AM by Sword »
Le cœur voit plus loin que l'esprit.
The heart sees further than the mind.

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2017, 11:10:17 AM »
I'd be fine with a Speak Language skill, provided that I could implement it correctly, but I wouldn't use class-based language bonuses. For Speak Language, 5 permanent ranks per language (on top of other languages) would seem more reasonable than one language per point, which is ridiculous.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

Phantasia

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1337
  • ¿
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2017, 11:23:05 AM »
I'd be fine with a Speak Language skill, provided that I could implement it correctly, but I wouldn't use class-based language bonuses. For Speak Language, 5 permanent ranks per language (on top of other languages) would seem more reasonable than one language per point, which is ridiculous.

Absolutely. It needs to be balanced for NWN. 5 hard ranks = 1 additional slot all day. It could easily be made to work with the current system in place. Or maybe 10 hard ranks + INT and custom feats. I'm all for that sort of implementation.
Le cœur voit plus loin que l'esprit.
The heart sees further than the mind.

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1796
  • dat boi
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2017, 01:10:05 PM »
I'd be fine with a Speak Language skill, provided that I could implement it correctly, but I wouldn't use class-based language bonuses. For Speak Language, 5 permanent ranks per language (on top of other languages) would seem more reasonable than one language per point, which is ridiculous.

Absolutely. One point per language would be crazy but five is in line with other skill point investments we have. It's straight forward and wouldn't need any other bonuses.



julienchab

  • Guest
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2017, 01:15:35 PM »
I'd love to see a skill system for languages added on top of the languages we get from INT. It would allow some characters with low int to learn some more languages and bring some RP that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

Inti

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 06:01:34 PM »
I'd be fine with a Speak Language skill, provided that I could implement it correctly, but I wouldn't use class-based language bonuses. For Speak Language, 5 permanent ranks per language (on top of other languages) would seem more reasonable than one language per point, which is ridiculous.


Is there any chance of this being implemented on the next hak update?  Can using an existing skill (Lore) in the same way be a viable labour-saving alternative?
“What makes the desert beautiful,' said the little prince, 'is that somewhere it hides a well...”  ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 06:18:11 PM »
Speak Language is being added in the hak update.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1796
  • dat boi
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 09:18:09 PM »
Out of curiosity, will this just be for learning new languages?  Will the languages our characters have now remain the same?



Iluvatar / Madness

  • Ex-Community Council
  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 3487
  • The Madness
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2017, 11:49:27 PM »
The language you have right now will remain the same because they are based on your int modifier. That aspect of the language system remains unchanged. We are only adding new means of learning a language
Iluvatar
Iluvatar-2
Iluvatar NCE
Madness

Tycat

  • The Tabasco Bandit
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2850
  • Discord: Tycat#2415
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2017, 03:03:00 AM »
Will we have the option to relevel to accomodate the skill points? This is an exciting thing to add.
Tycat#2415 (discord)
Facebook Art Page @thetabascobandit
Instagram art Tycat_thetabscobandit
DeviantArt /Tybookins
YouTube Tabasco Bandit Theatre

Blessed Be, and keep creating.

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Extra Language Feat (for Bards)
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2017, 03:31:28 AM »
Yep!
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.