Race restrictions on native voodans

[Krosenq]

I would like to formally address a topic discussed in the discord dev channel and bring it up here for the community to share their thoughts.

Anyone who has ever tried to create a native non-human Voodan has likely encountered the message below during the character creation process:



Native Ravenloft voodans are limited to humans only. Here's what the sourcebook says about this:

"But in the 3.5 Edition Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends, the Voodans are presented as a class open to all races, but it is noted that nearly all Voodans in Ravenloft are human, with negligible numbers of members of other races, if any."

And here is the class description's take on race:

Races: In the Ravenloft setting, in which Souragne is the only domain from which voodan hail, humans make up the entirety of the class. (If any nonhuman voodan do exist, they are so rare as to make up a statistically negligible proportion.) In other settings, elves, half-orcs, and halflings from wilder regions sometimes gravitate toward worship of the loa. Gnomes and dwarves rarely find the faith appealing, but some of the monstrous humanoid tribes adopt it.

I want to emphasize that the voodan class is a base class, which means it can be played by characters from all settings . However, due to the specific lore of the Ravenloft setting, native characters have restrictions that do not apply to characters from other settings. The question then becomes: do we think a Barovian elf who learned from a traveler from Souragne is more disruptive to the setting than a forest gnome from Faerun who worships Lethede? If the spirits can be worshipped in other settings, why not in other domains?

"Voodans are presented as a class open to all races, but it is noted that nearly all Voodans in Ravenloft are human, with negligible numbers of members of other races, if any." - I read this as more of a guiding principle that points to the origins of the class. We live in a living, breathing world, that's different from a static d&d campaign. If we've had player Voodans traveling across the core for years, I find it hard to believe that their presence would have left no mark on the world.

While I can appreciate remaining faithful to the setting, the restrictions aren't very well-defined. I believe it might be a good idea to reevaluate this limitation. As a base class, the voodan should be accessible to all base races from all worlds, including the domains of dread. I have faith in the creativity of our server's players to come up with fitting backgrounds for their characters that respect the setting.

(As an aside, I would also like to mention that this is the only class that a caliban, regardless of origin, is unable to play)

Let's have a constructive discussion on whether or not the Voodan class should be opened up to other races within the Ravenloft setting.

[Maiyannah]

Given that *limiting* it to humans only represents a deviation from the source material, I would love to hear what the reasoning for it was.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

I want to emphasize that the voodan class is a base class, which means it can be played by characters from all settings.

This is likely straying from the intent of the thread's subject, but it was my understanding that the Voodan is an explicitly highly restricted base class only available to Ravenloft, Gothic Earth and Athasian origin characters. In fact, Athasian Voodan were a somewhat recent addition to that extremely limited list. Was this restriction further loosened to allow other settings/homebrew Voodan? One of the core detriments of the Voodan class from my perspective has been it's extremely limited pool of narrative concepts to play.

As to the original topic; I see no reason for the departure from the canon portrayal which permits non-human Voodan to exist. To me this seems like an oversight caused by misreading of the source material.

[zDark Shadowz]

While its open to all races, the origin of setting sort of implies that other races may multiclass into it later, but longer lived races that aren't human have plenty of time to convert their commoner class, and half elves would have direct parentage.

I think all native races except caliban should be fine for 1st/2nd lvl and calibans multiclass into it if tutored later.

[ladylena]

I thought the Voodan was a class that was made strictly for ravenloft?

[EO]

Each setting has its own restrictions for classes, alignments, etc. The Voodan's description you've quoted is straight up from Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends, the book that introduced Voodan, and is rather clear:

Races: In the Ravenloft setting, in which Souragne is the only domain from which voodan hail, humans make up the entirety of the class. (If any nonhuman voodan do exist, they are so rare as to make up a statistically negligible proportion.) In other settings, elves, half-orcs and halflings from wilder regions sometimes gravitate toward worship of the loa. Gnomes and dwarves rarely find the faith appealing, but some of the monstrous humanoid tribes adopt it.

As such there are no plans to expand it beyond that in Ravenloft. Ideally we'd develop a set of Loa for each setting but since that's rather time consuming for such a niche concept, we just have them re-use the Souragnan ones with the exception of Athas (where they sort of replace the role of Elemental Priests of AD&D) and Gothic Earth.

[Krosenq]

I want to emphasize that the voodan class is a base class, which means it can be played by characters from all settings.

This is likely straying from the intent of the thread's subject, but it was my understanding that the Voodan is an explicitly highly restricted base class only available to Ravenloft, Gothic Earth and Athasian origin characters. In fact, Athasian Voodan were a somewhat recent addition to that extremely limited list. Was this restriction further loosened to allow other settings/homebrew Voodan?

Yes, this is a common misunderstanding. Voodan, as a base class, has been open to all settings from the time it was implemented. It just wasn't clear what it was these non-natives were worshiping. The official stance is that any Voodan that is not from Ravenloft, Athas or GE, has to worship a local variant of one of the Ravenloft loas for balance reasons.

This is a quote from EO on discord, which explains it better.

[zDark Shadowz]

"If any nonhuman voodan do exist, they are so rare as to make up a statistically negligible proportion"

Aren't player characters also a statistically negligible proportion? ~0 isn't 0. This statement is leeway for DMs to allow it if they wanted to.

[MAB77]

The restriction on native voodan is just representing the fact that the demiplane is a relatively small place and that this religion really didn't had much time to spread yet in the demiplane. Souragne boasts some 3100 souls, only around 31 of them being non-humans. Very few Souragnian would be actual voodan, fewer (if any) would be traveling the Core, and fewer still would likely to be non-human voodan. In short, a non-human voodan from Souragne would be so rare that it would likely not exceed a single NPC.

We could go with the idea that after nearly 150 within the Mists it could have spread elsewhere. After all, we do allow non-human voodan from other settings. It's not like it would have any disastrous impact on the module. Though it keeps a specificity to souragnian characters and that does help to support the setting lore.

[Krosenq]

"If any nonhuman voodan do exist, they are so rare as to make up a statistically negligible proportion"

Aren't player characters also a statistically negligible proportion? ~0 isn't 0. This statement is leeway for DMs to allow it if they wanted to.

We also have official sources (Gazetteer) saying that there are Calibans in Souragne, so presumably, they make up most of the 1% of the non-human population. And if there is a caliban population, similar to what can be found in other domains, I feel like there could be room to open up the class to them, at least.

Both groups refer to themselves equally as Souragniens and think of themselves as natives to the island. However, only the darker skinned peoples are truly natives; the
fair-skinned Souragniens are settlers who came to the land many centuries ago. Apart from the double examples of humanity there is precious little sentience in this marshy land. There are a scattered few calibans who roam the swamps but few other demihumans.

[Krosenq]

The restriction on native voodan is just representing the fact that the demiplane is a relatively small place and that this religion really didn't had much time to spread yet in the demiplane. Souragne boasts some 3100 souls, only around 31 of them being non-humans. Very few Souragnian would be actual voodan, fewer (if any) would be traveling the Core, and fewer still would likely to be non-human voodan. In short, a non-human voodan from Souragne would be so rare that it would likely not exceed a single NPC.

We could go with the idea that after nearly 150 within the Mists it could have spread elsewhere. After all, we do allow non-human voodan from other settings. It's not like it would have any disastrous impact on the module. Though it keeps a specificity to souragnian characters and that does help to support the setting lore.

I agree with this interpretation. I just think that giving the players the option to bring that rare exception to life is something that could be considered.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

Yes, this is a common misunderstanding. Voodan, as a base class, has been open to all settings from the time it was implemented. It just wasn't clear what it was these non-natives were worshiping. The official stance is that any Voodan that is not from Ravenloft, Athas or GE, has to worship a local variant of one of the Ravenloft loas for balance reasons.

This is a quote from EO on discord, which explains it better.

So still extremely constricting on narrative options, then. Unfortunate. No Orcish Death Priests or Dwarven Ancestral Shamans, still.

[MAB77]

So still extremely constricting on narrative options, then. Unfortunate. No Orcish Death Priests or Dwarven Ancestral Shamans, still.

Those are certainly possible, they would just not be native from Ravenloft.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

So still extremely constricting on narrative options, then. Unfortunate. No Orcish Death Priests or Dwarven Ancestral Shamans, still.

Those are certainly possible, they would just not be native from Ravenloft.

Possible with a class other than Voodan, perhaps. The stipulation that they have to worship the Ravenloft-specific Loa is the coffin nail in the idea.

[herkles]

"If any nonhuman voodan do exist, they are so rare as to make up a statistically negligible proportion"

Aren't player characters also a statistically negligible proportion? ~0 isn't 0. This statement is leeway for DMs to allow it if they wanted to.

We also have official sources (Gazetteer) saying that there are Calibans in Souragne, so presumably, they make up most of the 1% of the non-human population. And if there is a caliban population, similar to what can be found in other domains, I feel like there could be room to open up the class to them, at least.

Both groups refer to themselves equally as Souragniens and think of themselves as natives to the island. However, only the darker skinned peoples are truly natives; the
fair-skinned Souragniens are settlers who came to the land many centuries ago. Apart from the double examples of humanity there is precious little sentience in this marshy land. There are a scattered few calibans who roam the swamps but few other demihumans.

Clarification. The Souragnian Gazetteer is a fan-made product by the FoS and isn't considered canon for our server.

[MAB77]

Possible with a class other than Voodan, perhaps. The stipulation that they have to worship the Ravenloft-specific Loa is the coffin nail in the idea.

The ruling is that the loa of Ravenloft are the Loa of the D&D multiverse.
Forgotten Realms, Planescape, and Greyhawk are settings from which non-human voodan can be from.
Dark Sun too, using the spirit of Athas as loa equivalents.

[Krosenq]

"If any nonhuman voodan do exist, they are so rare as to make up a statistically negligible proportion"

Aren't player characters also a statistically negligible proportion? ~0 isn't 0. This statement is leeway for DMs to allow it if they wanted to.

We also have official sources (Gazetteer) saying that there are Calibans in Souragne, so presumably, they make up most of the 1% of the non-human population. And if there is a caliban population, similar to what can be found in other domains, I feel like there could be room to open up the class to them, at least.

Both groups refer to themselves equally as Souragniens and think of themselves as natives to the island. However, only the darker skinned peoples are truly natives; the
fair-skinned Souragniens are settlers who came to the land many centuries ago. Apart from the double examples of humanity there is precious little sentience in this marshy land. There are a scattered few calibans who roam the swamps but few other demihumans.

Clarification. The Souragnian Gazetteer is a fan-made product by the FoS and isn't considered canon for our server.

Gotcha- thank you!

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

The ruling is that the loa of Ravenloft are the Loa of the D&D multiverse.
Forgotten Realms, Planescape, and Greyhawk are settings from which non-human voodan can be from.
Dark Sun too, using the spirit of Athas as loa equivalents.

It was my interpretation of the Voodan religion writeup that Voodan from Athas are closer to elemental shaman; they don't use the Loa. They use a patron elemental spirit instead, as per https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=50127.msg731410#msg731410

Spoiler: show

As the world of Athas has no deities, it stands to reason there would be no spirits to act as messengers of the gods. Yet, it is still a land inhabited by powerful elemental and para-elemental spirits that are somewhat similar to the loa in nature. These are known as the spirits of the land. They inhabit the various geological features (mountains, hills, rock formations, hot springs, river beds, winds, skies, etc.) of Athas. They have little direct contact with the world, but these are the same spirits which empower the Athasian druids. Few except druids have ever seen or had any contact with a spirit, but every now and then a mystic of sort also communes with a spirit of the land. These mystics are called voodan, a term dating back from the Green Age of Athas. The voodan of Athas act to preserve and promote the element and natural formations associated with their patron spirit.

Spirits of the land are said to inhabit nearly all the terrain features of Athas. They are revered and worshipped by druids and voodan, respected by the common folk, and ignored or abused by defilers. A spirit does not need to be worshipped to survive. It is content simply to exist in its chosen terrain feature. It is believed spirits whose resident land feature is destroyed either die or return to the elemental plane, no one is certain which. This is a mystery no one can answer. Neither does anyone know where the spirits originated. The popular theory is that Athas was once a world so filled with life energy that the spirits may have been responsible for the creation of life itself. On Ravenloft, these spirits never physically manifest themselves to mortals, but the voodan are adamant they are still there providing omens and counsel to those listening.

Athasian Voodan can be of any alignment. Unlike elemental clerics, a voodan is not obligated to take an elemental domain, but available domains are restricted depending on the patron spirit's element.

Ultimately I would have preferred for the Voodan base class to adopt similar options for choices as to what the patron spirits empowering each Voodan is represented by; currently the only options in town are worshipping the Loa of Ravenloft, or if you're Athasian having a patron elemental spirit, which cuts off all manner of options, examples of which I mentioned above; an Orcish Death Cleric whose patron spirits are in fact tormented wraiths chained to them after ritual sacrifice, a Dwarven Ancestral Priest whose patron spirits are his honoured forefathers, etc, etc. Which is all outside the scope of this thread, admittedly.

[MAB77]

[...]
Dark Sun too, using the spirit of Athas as loa equivalents.

It was my interpretation of the Voodan religion writeup that Voodan from Athas are closer to elemental shaman; they don't use the Loa. They use a patron elemental spirit instead, as per https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=50127.msg731410#msg731410 [...]

You do realize you are stating exactly what I just said, using a post I wrote as a reference?

[Krosenq]

The ruling is that the loa of Ravenloft are the Loa of the D&D multiverse.
Forgotten Realms, Planescape, and Greyhawk are settings from which non-human voodan can be from.
Dark Sun too, using the spirit of Athas as loa equivalents.

It was my interpretation of the Voodan religion writeup that Voodan from Athas are closer to elemental shaman; they don't use the Loa. They use a patron elemental spirit instead, as per https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=50127.msg731410#msg731410

Spoiler: show

As the world of Athas has no deities, it stands to reason there would be no spirits to act as messengers of the gods. Yet, it is still a land inhabited by powerful elemental and para-elemental spirits that are somewhat similar to the loa in nature. These are known as the spirits of the land. They inhabit the various geological features (mountains, hills, rock formations, hot springs, river beds, winds, skies, etc.) of Athas. They have little direct contact with the world, but these are the same spirits which empower the Athasian druids. Few except druids have ever seen or had any contact with a spirit, but every now and then a mystic of sort also communes with a spirit of the land. These mystics are called voodan, a term dating back from the Green Age of Athas. The voodan of Athas act to preserve and promote the element and natural formations associated with their patron spirit.

Spirits of the land are said to inhabit nearly all the terrain features of Athas. They are revered and worshipped by druids and voodan, respected by the common folk, and ignored or abused by defilers. A spirit does not need to be worshipped to survive. It is content simply to exist in its chosen terrain feature. It is believed spirits whose resident land feature is destroyed either die or return to the elemental plane, no one is certain which. This is a mystery no one can answer. Neither does anyone know where the spirits originated. The popular theory is that Athas was once a world so filled with life energy that the spirits may have been responsible for the creation of life itself. On Ravenloft, these spirits never physically manifest themselves to mortals, but the voodan are adamant they are still there providing omens and counsel to those listening.

Athasian Voodan can be of any alignment. Unlike elemental clerics, a voodan is not obligated to take an elemental domain, but available domains are restricted depending on the patron spirit's element.

Ultimately I would have preferred for the Voodan base class to adopt similar options for choices as to what the patron spirits empowering each Voodan is represented by; currently the only options in town are worshipping the Loa of Ravenloft, or if you're Athasian having a patron elemental spirit, which cuts off all manner of options, examples of which I mentioned above; an Orcish Death Cleric whose patron spirits are in fact tormented wraiths chained to them after ritual sacrifice, a Dwarven Ancestral Priest whose patron spirits are his honoured forefathers, etc, etc. Which is all outside the scope of this thread, admittedly.

As I understand it, your non-native Voodan is not limited to a strict interpretation of the Ravenloft loa. I think you have some freedom to put your own spin on the spirit and its religion, as long as its in line with the general concept. You could even call it seomthing else ( as long as you have the Ravenloft name in your deity field). Take this spirit for example:

Tonthomba, the Burning Man
One of the wildest of the loa, Tonthomba is as capricious as the flame he represents. He is vital to civilization, providing light in the dark and heat in winter, but he is also one of the world’s greatest destroyers, easily angered, difficult to control. He is revered by all who use fire, which means nearly all civilized men and women pray to him at some point. He is particularly worshipped by pyromaniacs and devotees of chaos and destruction. He is usually portrayed simply as a great being of flame; when he appears as human, it is as a muscular young man with deep red hair and flaming eyes.

I don't think it would be inappropriate to have your own take on a chaotic fire spirit that wants to destroy things. A lot of the Ravenloft spirits embody simple concepts that you can flesh out in any way you want.  Travel, destruction, death, fire, family, healing, nature. It's all there.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

You do realize you are stating exactly what I just said, using a post I wrote as a reference?

I'm disagreeing with your assessment that the Athasian Voodan are using 'loa equivalents'. None of the listed spirits of the elements come close to the same cultural and narrative threads that the Ravenloft Loa deal in.

[MAB77]

You do realize you are stating exactly what I just said, using a post I wrote as a reference?

I'm disagreeing with your assessment that the Athasian Voodan are using 'loa equivalents'. None of the listed spirits of the elements come close to the same cultural and narrative threads that the Ravenloft Loa deal in.

Nowhere have I said there where the same. They are equivalent in the sense that we consider they fulfill similar roles: being conduits for divine powers. One may be more spirittual and the other elemental, ut in effect very similar.