Author Topic: Suggestions for Shield feats  (Read 1351 times)

Sword

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2017, 10:09:06 PM »
Going to shamelessly double back to my percentage suggestions. Also, yeah, Shield users don't need any more AC, straight up. More utility, sure. Like some way to code a Shield Bash feat like PnP.
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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2017, 06:53:50 AM »
I think this is going about the wrong way. Wrong focus. Shield users don't need more AC. (Sure, small shield users could use some to compensate, that'd be cool. But only to a maximum of what's achieved with a tower, and only after taking feats for it).

But we do not need to be adding AC to shield users. Some of the stuff presented here is crazy high. Like, literally a feat for +5 more AC than what a shield could have already been giving? Plz no! We don't need to be adding new sources of large amounts of AC to the server balance in general. Those are huge changes that impact literally everyone.

Try to look at other bonuses, instead. Maybe the larger the shield, it comes with a larger discipline bonus. Maybe even a concentration bonus, to help against antagonizes (Though Divine Spellcasters would be very happy). Damage immunity is probably a little too much. AC is definitely a little too much. I personally like discipline bonuses with shields (Which can be as easy as adjusting lootbin items, or as hard as feats), because it gives you a more defensive umpf against knockdowns and disarms-- whereas the two-hander is going to be getting advantages in disarming due to size category. So it's like a flip-flop-- only, the defensive side also gets bonuses against KD.

Agreed. Giving Shields something along the lines of damage immunity is the one-up approach to redesigning, and then shields merely become superior again and parry will want buffs.

From a loot standpoint, there is already enough incentive on the server for people to use tower shields, there are some very beneficial bonuses for equipment. The only downfall really is that shields tend to favor the availability of magic vestment. I think where shields are lacking is any incentive at all to use small shields and occasionally large shields, as most of these lesser shields have drawbacks- The 'best' shields that I'm aware for these two types aren't high priority because they're merely +AC, and that doesn't stack with magic vestment, making tower shields more preferred for defensive builds. I can only really think of two 'magical' small shields and just a few large shields without much of a bonus compared to whats available on tower shields. If it was something I'd redesigned; I would of let Tower shields remain the higher AC bonuses, with looted shields keeping decent shield bonuses. I would then favor small and large shields to have more of the utility bonus; If they had the properties of things like the Blessed Bulwark or Svalinn, It follows the pattern that there is no best in slot item, but rather, a decision for the character to decide between unique utility vs maximum AC.

With that being said, I think in summary providing some sort of bonus feat to offer utility to shield users is still on the table- but otherwise the loot tables could use some new suggestions and maybe tweaking those shields that already exist to counteract the idea of "best in slot."

FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2017, 11:55:31 AM »
I think this is going about the wrong way. Wrong focus. Shield users don't need more AC. (Sure, small shield users could use some to compensate, that'd be cool. But only to a maximum of what's achieved with a tower, and only after taking feats for it).

But we do not need to be adding AC to shield users. Some of the stuff presented here is crazy high. Like, literally a feat for +5 more AC than what a shield could have already been giving? Plz no! We don't need to be adding new sources of large amounts of AC to the server balance in general. Those are huge changes that impact literally everyone.

Try to look at other bonuses, instead. Maybe the larger the shield, it comes with a larger discipline bonus. Maybe even a concentration bonus, to help against antagonizes (Though Divine Spellcasters would be very happy). Damage immunity is probably a little too much. AC is definitely a little too much. I personally like discipline bonuses with shields (Which can be as easy as adjusting lootbin items, or as hard as feats), because it gives you a more defensive umpf against knockdowns and disarms-- whereas the two-hander is going to be getting advantages in disarming due to size category. So it's like a flip-flop-- only, the defensive side also gets bonuses against KD.

No one has suggested that a feat grant 5 extra AC to shield users. As far as AC goes, most people who don't discount it all completely agree that +2 would be the absolute max, just so that a guy with a giant piece of metal on his arm can block as well as someone with a dagger in his left hand. Right now, the only way a guy with a tower shield can get the same ac as a parry build with two weapons is via MAGIC.  That's just silly.

However, AC is not the only option on the table. The more I think about it, the more I think a very small amount of damage immunity makes good IC sense. I do still think it should require training via feats and skill, it shouldn't be free.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 11:59:35 AM by FlattedFifth »

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2017, 10:50:24 PM »
This honestly feels a bit pointless to debate about. Normally that would mean I wouldn't respond, but here's why:

Despite it being easily conceded that dex-based people might have a leg up people that wish to use shields -- especially those that are of fighter and barbarian ilk can do so and still do what they typically wish to do so in spades (tanking) because of their high hp pool. While a rogue could probably get to an equivalent AC they'll never be able to BS the HP a barb/fighter gets with or without buffs.

Balance is actually on point because nothing ever feels pointless to roll with. You don't ever feel like you're taking a bullet for the sake of concept... Well, except maybe fighters, but 20 feats is crazy and you can do some crazy stuff with that.

But a group feat like shield wall? Where if people had similar group feats and got concealment? Well, that'd really play into the self-motivated nature of this playerbase and might make shields more appealing for the super min-maxer.
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FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2017, 12:48:40 AM »
Here's an idea: Make light and medium shields, which are light-weight enough to move around, gain limited benefit from parry skill, but make large, bulky tower shields remain as they are.

No new feats. No changes to skills. Just an adjustment to how parry works.

If you have Improved Parry and a Light shield equipped (which imposes a -1 parry penalty), you gain +1 dodge AC for every 6 points of Parry, to a max of +4.

If you have Improved Parry and a Medium shield equipped (which imposes a -2 parry penalty), you gain +1 dodge AC for every 7 points of Parry, to a max of +4.

Numbers subject to change by dev team of course.


No change to tower shields, they remain the big dumb block of wood of choice for the big dumb blocker.


This would make light and medium shields a viable option for those looking to build a defense focused character who's willing to loose a little in offense and spend the skill points and feats

Thoughts? Night of Reod?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 12:57:16 AM by FlattedFifth »

Night of Reod

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2017, 05:06:27 AM »
Here's an idea: Make light and medium shields, which are light-weight enough to move around, gain limited benefit from parry skill, but make large, bulky tower shields remain as they are.

No new feats. No changes to skills. Just an adjustment to how parry works.

If you have Improved Parry and a Light shield equipped (which imposes a -1 parry penalty), you gain +1 dodge AC for every 6 points of Parry, to a max of +4.

If you have Improved Parry and a Medium shield equipped (which imposes a -2 parry penalty), you gain +1 dodge AC for every 7 points of Parry, to a max of +4.

Numbers subject to change by dev team of course.


No change to tower shields, they remain the big dumb block of wood of choice for the big dumb blocker.


This would make light and medium shields a viable option for those looking to build a defense focused character who's willing to loose a little in offense and spend the skill points and feats

Thoughts? Night of Reod?

 There is no need to make light and medium shields, there are already small and large shields. I think the idea of having Improved Parry work with those is good one as at least a placeholder if it doesn't require a hak update to implement, though I have no idea if it does or not. However, I would put the values at +1 AC max for large shield and +2 AC max for small shield that stacks with the shield AC bonus present on the shield already, putting them on par with a tower shield. That way, you can choose between being able to use a cool large/small shield and having to carry around less or having more feats and skill points as a shield user, or have the option of using cool large/small shields as situational shields if you are willing to carry the extra weight around and invest the feat and skills.

FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2017, 02:50:46 PM »
You misunderstand me. My fault.

By light and medium shield, I meant small and large. Since they're useless in the OC and most servers (unless you play a hin or gnome) I never use them and so forget what they're called.

To clarify, what I meant was cause the two smaller types of shields to gain limited benefit from Parry. This would make the lighter weight shields the shield of choice for the skilled, thinking warrior and the tower shields the default for the untrained.

Glad you like the concept, but I disagree with your statement of +2 and +1 max. I think that if someone actively trains with them, they should get better defense without resorting to magic than someone with two weapons. I keep repeating myself, I know, but I think choosing between defense and offense should be a thing here, instead of certain builds having the best possible of both. A +4 max would only give a medium shield user the same ac as a two weapon user, but then at least enchantment would make for a better ac in exchange for the loss of offense, instead of needing enchantment just to be on par.

Maybe a +4 max for the lightest shield and a +3 max for the medium shield? That way, someone who trained to use a shield effectively can get almost as good a defense as a two weapon user without enchantment, then get enchantment to get slightly better.

Right now, the best any shield user can do is blow xp points to invest in enchanting a tower shield at lvl 14 and get the exact same ac as a result as a fighter/rogue with improved two weapon defense can at lower lvls; and only do better by using temporary dispellable effects. That is simply neither fair nor sensible. Please dont' mention shields with DR, that's only a bonus in favour of shields if you cant get armor with DR.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 03:20:10 PM by FlattedFifth »

Night of Reod

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2017, 05:15:17 PM »
 You seem to be forgetting that two weapon users make a commitment of:

-Two Weapon Fighting

-Ambidexterity

-Two Weapon Defence

-Improved Two Weapon Defence

-Improved Two Weapon Fighting

-Skill Points

-17 dexterity

 And in some cases, some feats to bump their parry as well, and they suffer an at least -2 penalty to their AB. If we compare this to your suggestion, a shield user needs to invest it:

-Improved Parry

-Skill Points

-13 int, which you likely want for expertise feats in the first place

 And they suffer no penalty to their AB and they are carrying a 15 lbs shield, which is not all that heavy, and they get whatever benefits their shield might have. I have seen large shields with spell resistance, blind fighting and some rare damage resistaces, as well as respectable AC bonuses.

 I think the dual wielding needs to invest a lot more than a shield user to get that AC bonus, and I think that makes sense from a balance perspective. If anything, I would reduce dual wielding shield AC to cap at +6, but even that I don't think is absolutely necessary.

Slaog

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2017, 05:27:44 PM »
Glad you like the concept, but I disagree with your statement of +2 and +1 max. I think that if someone actively trains with them, they should get better defense without resorting to magic than someone with two weapons. I keep repeating myself, I know, but I think choosing between defense and offense should be a thing here, instead of certain builds having the best possible of both. A +4 max would only give a medium shield user the same ac as a two weapon user, but then at least enchantment would make for a better ac in exchange for the loss of offense, instead of needing enchantment just to be on par.

I second the higher magic defense idea. I like the image of unenchanted, trained soldiers forming a testudo to block a decent amount of dragon fire, boiling oil, average magic attacks etc. while the losers with two weapons are scalded :P

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2017, 04:11:38 AM »
By your suggestion a person with 30 ranks in parry, a large shield and the help of a cleric, could get +10 AC. That sounds unnecessary.

Many characters use large shields because they can't afford to bear the weight of a tower shield. Typically clerics that are not front liners. Small shields exist in a niche for certain caster-tanks because the small shield only imposes 5% arcane spell failure, but can offer +5 AC with no skill investment and relatively little weight.

The suggestions to allow a skill investment to put small and large shields on par with tower shields sound more reasonable, though I still think that's not necessary, as all the shields do have uses already.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 04:13:39 AM by Bad_Bud »


FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2017, 11:19:53 AM »
Night of Reod,

If we didn't have so many feats, for example, a bonus feat for every single level for fighters on top of one per three levels, I would say that the feat investment for two weapon users to achieve +7 ac is daunting. But, since we do, it's not.

You can keep your systems and talk of shields with DR (SO WHAT? GET AN ADAMANTINE CHAIN SHIRT!) and keep your talk of dispellable temporary effects,   the REAL question is, is this a roleplay server? If so, how are we to roleplay that the guy with a dagger in his left hand is able to block more blows than the guy with the giant piece of steel covering half his body? Not to mention, as someone else pointed out, apparently deflecting arrows with that dagger better than the guy with the huge shield does?

Mereyn

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2017, 12:09:06 PM »
Maybe this is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of mine of D&D, and I dare say the AC system is something to mull over, consider this:
AC is the value that determines whether you get hit, or not. So it's not a matter of actual deflection of a blow, but more or less a mechanical evasion.
In which case, sure, the dude who doesn't have that large piece of metal strapped to his left (or arguably right) arm is going to be better at dodging.

Or you could now argue that this system is entirely retarded because a half-plate, chain mail or scale mail (all armors that in the base game impose more penalty than the AC worth makes up for) should have even less AC because you can't dodge as well as someone with form fit armor.

To add to the discussion at hand, AC feats won't change anything and the system was basically balanced to be the way it is now for a reason, as I understand.
Shields should perhaps get slam feats or something that increases your reflex save against AoE while you're wielding one (being able to deflect fireballs with your shield, is the idea.) But otherwise you're just playing back and forth until a normal character who has no interest in taking all these obscure feats will be left in the dust when he gets smacked.

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2017, 12:30:44 PM »
All good feedback! Keep it coming!

Also:
Shield Bash
Sacrifice your atracks for the round for the chance of a strike with a daze effect.

I love the idea of giving an offensive benefit to shields - so much of the focus (in both the conversation to this point and in the Shield vs. Parry debate) is solely on the defensive benefits they provide, but a *truly* practiced shield warrior would use the shield as an extension of himself, just as the Weapon Master sees his weapon of choice.  Making attacks with the shield not for damage but for crowd control purposes keeps things balanced.  A daze effect would be cool, but I'm almost more inclined to think a Knockdown effect would be even cooler thematically, not to mention making the ability useful vs. skellies and zombies, who would normally be immune to daze.  The feat could just simply be a bonus to your Knockdown DC based on either your discipline (reflecting how practiced you are with shield-fighting and time spent honing the skill) score, the size of shield you use (+1, +2, +3 for Small, Large, Tower respectively) or a combination of the two. 

As someone who plays mainly as Crowd Control, I would *gladly* sacrifice my damage for a round if it meant getting more control over a particularly dangerous mob (I'm looking at you, Huecuva & Huecuva-adjacent palette swaps.)

As I think about this more, I'm further reminded of my time playing World of Warcraft, when I mained a Protection Warrior from TBC through Cataclysm, and one of the most welcome changes was the ability to Charge in Defensive Stance so that you could use Charge - Shield Slam as your opener on your primary target. Rushing up to an opponent and laying into them with a spike-covered car door leashed to your arm had a visceral element to it that got the adrenaline going.  Being able to open up a can on some neckbiter by waffling them with 40+ pounds of oak and steel crafted by the finest artisans in Dvergeheim would just feel......great.  It would just be great.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 12:40:54 PM by BlueWizrobe »
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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2017, 01:33:50 PM »
Night of Reod,

If we didn't have so many feats, for example, a bonus feat for every single level for fighters on top of one per three levels, I would say that the feat investment for two weapon users to achieve +7 ac is daunting. But, since we do, it's not.

You can keep your systems and talk of shields with DR (SO WHAT? GET AN ADAMANTINE CHAIN SHIRT!) and keep your talk of dispellable temporary effects,   the REAL question is, is this a roleplay server? If so, how are we to roleplay that the guy with a dagger in his left hand is able to block more blows than the guy with the giant piece of steel covering half his body? Not to mention, as someone else pointed out, apparently deflecting arrows with that dagger better than the guy with the huge shield does?

 It seems I missed this. The amount of DR I was referring to is "virtual" and not actual DR, and 50% DR is much, much more impactful than the 3 DR adamantine offers, not to mention adamantine is fairly rare and "so what, get an adamantine chainmail" is not really a valid balance argument.
 Varnishes and magic vestment spells are not dispellable temporary effects, as they effect the items and not the character, dispell spells on the character will not effect them.
 As for this being a roleplaying server, of course it is, which is why you are free to, and even encouraged to, roleplay your shield user in any way you want so long as it makes sense and doesn't involve cheesing. This is not a discussion about how to roleplay shields, this is a discussion about game balance.
 As for realism, the guy with the giant piece of steel covering half his body makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Having such a big shield that weighs 45 lbs would not only be extremely cumbersome and tiring, but it would also be too slow to be useful for parrying, and it would also make it really hard to use body mechanics and your body weight when throwing cuts/jabs, making your offence and defence much weaker. Which is why there are pretty much no accounts of these kinds of shields being used in actual melee historically. I believe the only thing that comes close is big wooden shields, but those were made out of wood and not metal, and they were mainly to defend against arrows and stones and were discarded once melee started. Shields that big were not used in in melee in Medieval warfare, which is what DnD combat tries to "emulate," if you can call it that. The tower shield in DnD is inspired by the pavise, which was used by crossbowmen as cover to reload behind, and even those were occasionally carried by a groom because of how cumbersome they were and how difficult they made moving around, let alone fighting. That is not the only historical/logical inconsistency in DnD system as well. Holding two swords doesn't really make you attack any faster, for example. Rapiers are not light, they are quite often heavier than arming swords, which DnD 3.5 calls "longsword" even though most historical longswords were made with two handed usage in mind. The list goes on and on. Both DnD and NWN are not realistic and they are definitely not historically accurate, and I think it is not very sensible to use realism as argument for something that is inherently not realistic in many aspects, and even then, this is a game and we are discussing game balance, and game balance is separate from concern of realism. In any game where you have a competitive mechanic, which NWN very much does, I believe you have to try to put game balance above other things.

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2017, 08:14:46 PM »
So, I had a big ol brainstorm with Flattened Fifth and we've come up with some stuff that might be groovy!
Obviously these are just general and totally up for discussion, modification, etc.

Skilled Blocking:
A talented shield user knows how and when to use even a small shield to good effect
Grants a bonus to AC based on [Skill] up to the point of a small or large shield being as effective as a tower shield

Shield Angling:
A devotee of the shield can lessen the power of a blow, even if it does pass his guard
Grants a damage a immunity (Physical) to a shield user based on that shields base AC
5% for small, 10% for large and 15% for Tower

Shield Wall:
You have learned to fight with a shield in a coordinated group with other, trained individuals.
For each other friendly player within X ft who also has the Shield Wall feat, you gain +1 Dodge AC Up to a cap of Y.

Mystic Block:
You have honed your skills to the point where you may anticipate and intercept incoming offensive, targeted spells
You gain a Spell Resistance equal to 10+3 for every base point of AC of your shield.
13 for small, 16 for large and 19 for Tower

Stoic Shield I, II and III
Your hard work and practice has paid off, making you harder to strike with your shield in hand.
Grants +1 AC for each level, taken to a maximum of [Skill]/10 Or +3 AC, whichever is lowest.

I thought [Skill] Could possibly be discipline, and all of these feats would need us to work out requirements of level, class, and stats.
So, what do y'all think?


I'm bumping this, because these propositions are interesting.


I'd also like to add a couple of mine:


"Protection (couldn't come up with anything more suitable)"
You've learned to use your shield to protect your party's most vulnerable members, and take the heat off their backs.
An ability that can be used on anyone within range, giving them +2 Dodge AC. (This is the basic idea, a guy with shield adds AC to someone without one, e.g. two hander. Should be multiple use to make sense; don't know if it would be possible to do the same way Expertise or PA work, other idea is to make the shields have unlimited uses, and the bonus would be added by "using" the shield on other player character).


"Shield offense"
A good shield can also be used as a weapon, given skill. With this feat, +1 AB is granted as long as the character has his shield equipped.
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MAB77

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2017, 08:10:58 AM »
I know EO tried to add some shield related feats, unfortunately they proved impractical to implement.
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