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Author Topic: Suggestions for Shield feats  (Read 7560 times)

Amon-Si

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Suggestions for Shield feats
« on: February 07, 2017, 05:16:01 AM »
So, I had a big ol brainstorm with Flattened Fifth and we've come up with some stuff that might be groovy!
Obviously these are just general and totally up for discussion, modification, etc.

Skilled Blocking:
A talented shield user knows how and when to use even a small shield to good effect
Grants a bonus to AC based on [Skill] up to the point of a small or large shield being as effective as a tower shield

Shield Angling:
A devotee of the shield can lessen the power of a blow, even if it does pass his guard
Grants a damage a immunity (Physical) to a shield user based on that shields base AC
5% for small, 10% for large and 15% for Tower

Shield Wall:
You have learned to fight with a shield in a coordinated group with other, trained individuals.
For each other friendly player within X ft who also has the Shield Wall feat, you gain +1 Dodge AC Up to a cap of Y.

Mystic Block:
You have honed your skills to the point where you may anticipate and intercept incoming offensive, targeted spells
You gain a Spell Resistance equal to 10+3 for every base point of AC of your shield.
13 for small, 16 for large and 19 for Tower

Stoic Shield I, II and III
Your hard work and practice has paid off, making you harder to strike with your shield in hand.
Grants +1 AC for each level, taken to a maximum of [Skill]/10 Or +3 AC, whichever is lowest.

I thought [Skill] Could possibly be discipline, and all of these feats would need us to work out requirements of level, class, and stats.
So, what do y'all think?

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2017, 06:41:47 AM »
Shield Wall:
You have learned to fight with a shield in a coordinated group with other, trained individuals.
For each other friendly player within X ft who also has the Shield Wall feat, you gain +1 Dodge AC Up to a cap of Y.

I -really- like the idea of this one. I think it's best made as a timed activated ability, kind of like bardsong. I'm not sure if uses per day makes sense, but it would be infitting with the nature of the server. I don't know much about programming so I have no idea how hard or easy it would be to implement something like this.

Stoic Shield I, II and III
Your hard work and practice has paid off, making you harder to strike with your shield in hand.
Grants +1 AC for each level, taken to a maximum of [Skill]/10 Or +3 AC, whichever is lowest.

This particular skill might tip the balance too much into the favour of shields over swords.

FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 08:53:12 AM »
Stoic Shield I, II and III
Your hard work and practice has paid off, making you harder to strike with your shield in hand.
Grants +1 AC for each level, taken to a maximum of [Skill]/10 Or +3 AC, whichever is lowest.

I thought [Skill] Could possibly be discipline, and all of these feats would need us to work out requirements of level, class, and stats.
So, what do y'all think?

Did some math and review of available items, how about a single feat that grants +1 AC for every 15 points of discipline while using a shield, to a MAX of +2? Maybe grant pure class fighters an additional +1 ac, for a total of 3.

New Feat: Stoic Shield
Requirements: Base Attack Bonus +6, Shield Proficiency
Description: You've trained hard with using a shield in combat allowing you to use the shield more effectively. Devoted warriors can use the shield even better.
Effect: You gain +1 Dodge AC when using a shield for every 15 points of Discipline, up to a max of +2. Pure Class Fighters gain an additional +1 Dodge AC when using a shield.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 08:59:26 AM by FlattedFifth »

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 08:55:51 AM »
Shield Angling:
A devotee of the shield can lessen the power of a blow, even if it does pass his guard
Grants a damage a immunity (Physical) to a shield user based on that shields base AC
5% for small, 10% for large and 15% for Tower

Likey this one the best. I would like it even more if the immunity includes area of effect damage. Could be a seperate feat, but this is what I mean:

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lakhena

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2017, 09:08:44 AM »
Shield wall sounds amazing and reminds me of this Roman awesomeness:


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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2017, 09:47:23 AM »
A developer could address this better than me, but I think that feat would be more gnarly because of having to check all the time to see who in range has it.

Doing it like bard song might help?

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Night of Reod

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2017, 11:31:07 AM »
Skilled Blocking:
A talented shield user knows how and when to use even a small shield to good effect
Grants a bonus to AC based on [Skill] up to the point of a small or large shield being as effective as a tower shield

 I am wholly in favor of this. Feat name could use work though.

Shield Angling:
A devotee of the shield can lessen the power of a blow, even if it does pass his guard
Grants a damage a immunity (Physical) to a shield user based on that shields base AC
5% for small, 10% for large and 15% for Tower


 Please keep in mind that immunity is applied before any DR is, which means for most of the mid to late game content, this feat will constantly be blocking two to six points of damage for a tower shield user. Considering even adamantine is 3/- DR and it requires quite a bit of time and some resources, as well as a skilled smelter and smith, to get and it sells easily for up to over a 100,000 gold, giving equivalent or even superior kind of damage reduction to a feat that stacks with and even amplifies all the other forms of DR doesn't make sense to me.


Shield Wall:
You have learned to fight with a shield in a coordinated group with other, trained individuals.
For each other friendly player within X ft who also has the Shield Wall feat, you gain +1 Dodge AC Up to a cap of Y.


 This is interesting, but there is also a reason why most of the people I played Pathfinder with hates teamwork feats. If you have a stable group with people who invested in such feats, they can be very strong, but if no one you are traveling with has them, they are utterly useless. It is feast or famine. I would suggest that if this is to be implemented, it gives at least some minor bonus, perhaps a +3 to discipline, and instead of giving AC, gives temporary HP. Temporary HP is much easier to balance around and keep in check over dodge AC, and it accomplishes the intended purpose of making shield users and a group of shield users fighting together tankier. And I agree that making it a timed, active ability you can use a limited amount of times like bard song would be the way to go.


Mystic Block:
You have honed your skills to the point where you may anticipate and intercept incoming offensive, targeted spells
You gain a Spell Resistance equal to 10+3 for every base point of AC of your shield.
13 for small, 16 for large and 19 for Tower


 This is clearly inspired by the Mystic Rage feat, and it has all the benefits and more for having none of the drawbacks. To get good use out of Mystic Rage, Barbarians need to invest in a lot of feats, and it is also only lasts for the duration of their rage, and they have the exhaustion to deal with after their rage ends. On the other hand, this provides 19 spell resistance, which is enough to resist the spells that an Ancient Mummy Lord casts 25% of the time I believe. On the other hand, most end game content features casters with a CL of at least 20, which means this feat would be completely useless against them. I think this feat would be too strong against early to mid game content and be useless for end game content. I would consider changing this into a +1, possibly +2 to against spells, though I don't think even that is necessary.

 

Stoic Shield I, II and III
Your hard work and practice has paid off, making you harder to strike with your shield in hand.
Grants +1 AC for each level, taken to a maximum of [Skill]/10 Or +3 AC, whichever is lowest.


This one, I already discussed my feelings about in detail. I think it is too strong, and I think it is completely unnecessary to give more AC to shield users.

Amon-Si

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2017, 01:33:28 PM »
All good feedback! Keep it coming!

Also:
Shield Bash
Sacrifice your atracks for the round for the chance of a strike with a daze effect.

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2017, 02:01:34 PM »
What about instead of increasing ac, have a feat that gives shipped users damage reduction or absorption?
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FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2017, 02:37:36 PM »

This one, I already discussed my feelings about in detail. I think it is too strong, and I think it is completely unnecessary to give more AC to shield users.

Necessary isn't the issue. It would be nice. Currently melee characters have two options: Train hard to learn how to fight effectively without a shield, or train nothing and use a shield. What is so wrong with a third option: training hard at being better at using a shield? That shield means a sacrifice of offense. It's not going to hurt anyone. What it will do is open up new build options and opportunities for people who actually LIKE the knightly aescthetic of plate mail and shield.

Shield Angling:
A devotee of the shield can lessen the power of a blow, even if it does pass his guard
Grants a damage a immunity (Physical) to a shield user based on that shields base AC
5% for small, 10% for large and 15% for Tower

 Please keep in mind that immunity is applied before any DR is, which means for most of the mid to late game content, this feat will constantly be blocking two to six points of damage for a tower shield user. Considering even adamantine is 3/- DR and it requires quite a bit of time and some resources, as well as a skilled smelter and smith, to get and it sells easily for up to over a 100,000 gold, giving equivalent or even superior kind of damage reduction to a feat that stacks with and even amplifies all the other forms of DR doesn't make sense to me.

I actually agree with you there, in regards to the numbers. Maybe 3%, 6%, and 9% would be more appropriate.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 03:39:54 PM by FlattedFifth »

FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2017, 04:31:02 PM »
Further ideas: 2 feats, one for deflection, one for absorption.


Name of Feat: Shield Style: Buckler
Requirements: Shield Proficiency, Improved Parry
Effect: You have grown adept at intercepting and turning aside blows with smaller shields, actively moving them towards your opponent to intercept blows before they reach full momentum instead of keeping them passively at your side. When you have a light shield equipped you now gain +1 Dodge AC for every 5 points of Parry skill you have, up to a maximum of 5. If you have a medium shield equipped, you gain +1 Dodge AC for every 8 points of Parry, up to a maximum of 5. You do not get any Parry AC bonuses for using a tower shield.


Name of Feat: Shield Style: Wall
Requirements: Shield Proficiency, Base Attack Bonus +6 or better
Effect: You have mastered the art of absorbing blows with the parts of the shield not directly over your arm, and flexing your arm to cushion the impact. When you have a medium shield equipped, you gain 5% physical damage immunity. When you have a tower shield equipped, you gain 9% physical damage immunity. You do not gain any damage immunity for using a light shield.


All numbers above are placeholder suggestions and are negotiable. Please do not attack the entire concept because you disagree with numbers. Only if you disagree with the whole concept.

Note that a parry build who can overcome the -2 penalty of the medium shield can take both feats and while using a medium shield, benefit from both
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 04:34:07 PM by FlattedFifth »

Night of Reod

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2017, 05:08:51 PM »

This one, I already discussed my feelings about in detail. I think it is too strong, and I think it is completely unnecessary to give more AC to shield users.

Necessary isn't the issue. It would be nice. Currently melee characters have two options: Train hard to learn how to fight effectively without a shield, or train nothing and use a shield. What is so wrong with a third option: training hard at being better at using a shield? That shield means a sacrifice of offense. It's not going to hurt anyone. What it will do is open up new build options and opportunities for people who actually LIKE the knightly aescthetic of plate mail and shield.

 Since it seems I couldn't manage to get my point across, I will try to explain my argument in more detail. Because of the way AC functions, it has increased returns. The more you have of it, the better it gets, up to a degree after which it stays stagnant.

 Take this example: If you are fighting against enemies that hits at a roll of 11 or above, that means you have a 50% chance of getting hit. If you then were to increase your AC by 5 points somehow, and only got hit at a roll of 16 or above, that means you have a 25% chance to get hit. That means that you are half as likely to get hit. Since you will, on average, only get hit half as much, you will also take also, on average, take half as much damage. In this case, 5 points of AC is roughly equivalent to 50% damage immunity.

 And this is where the increased returns part comes in. If you are getting hit at a roll of 19 or above, then that means you are getting hit 10% of the time. If you somehow increase your AC by 1 point, then you would only get hit at a roll of 20, a 5% chance. This means you are, on average, half as likely to get hit and you will take, on average, half as much damage. In this instance, a single point of AC is roughly equal to 50% damage immunity.

 In my personal experience, if you have more than 25% chance of getting hit, that is at a roll of 16 or above, you probably don't want to be in the melee in the first place, as you are likely to die before accomplishing much of anything. Taking that as an example, increasing your AC by 1 point in such a situation, your chances of getting hit would go from 25% to 20%, which means you are, on average, 20% less likely to get hit and hence you will, on average, take 20% less damage. In this case, a single point of AC is roughly equal to 20% damage immunity.

  I believe that helps explain why even a single point of AC can make a huge difference, especially when you are facing late game content with very high AB numbers.

 As for your other point, I don't see how this will open up new "build options," as you put it. Shield builds are completely viable, from the start of the game to end game content. Just today I fought in Sithicus with my shield using character, and I actually had a two handed weapon user and a dual wielder with me. I had +3 shield AC on my shield, which is readily available to everyone via varnishes and enchanting, and I was the only on who was capable of holding the enemies there in large numbers, due to my AC. Even though you seem to be convinced that shield builds are somehow unviable, I assure you from my experience with both playing a shield using character and witnessing other shield using characters in action, they are completely viable, even for late game content such as Sithicus, and they do perform their job of being defensive quite well.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 05:10:26 PM by Night of Reod »

FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2017, 07:50:30 PM »
Saying that giving shield users more build options is not the same as saying they are not viable.

Would allowing shield users to spend feats and/or skills to be better at using a shield hurt anyone? No.

Would it add variety? Yes.

Problem? Still no idea.

Night of Reod

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2017, 10:58:32 PM »
Saying that giving shield users more build options is not the same as saying they are not viable.

Would allowing shield users to spend feats and/or skills to be better at using a shield hurt anyone? No.

Would it add variety? Yes.

Problem? Still no idea.

 As you can tell by reading my comments on the feats and the other thread, I am in favour of adding flavour for shield users. I merely think that adding feats that give shield users extra AC is not a good idea, for the reasons I stated.

 I am not certain what you mean by "more build options," can you please elaborate on that? Are you referring to giving shield users more options in terms of feats, or a different way to build them entirely?

 As for hurting anyone, adding changes that upset the game balance and give one type of character clear power over others is hurtful to the people's enjoyment of the game, I'd argue.

 I think the problem we are having is that you are simply requesting new feats be added, and ignoring all the problems people pointed out with the said feats. Please, do explain in detail why you think adding the feats you requested is a good idea, other then "making shield users be better at using shields," preferably using some numbers and tangible values. I am sure we can come up with ideas that will add more flavour to the shield users without over-tuning them. As far as I am aware, a Hak update is necessary to add or alter feats, and as such adding feats that effect the game negatively would be hard and bothersome to fix.

FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2017, 04:00:54 PM »
Mainly for IC sense reasons do I harp on the more AC thing. I don't think it makes IC sense for a guy with a giant piece of wood and steel covering most of the left side of his body to be less good at blocking blows than a guy with a dagger in his left hand, and has to resort to MAGIC to get as good or better.

However, I'm not completely married to the idea of higher AC for shields. See my last suggestion which involved Parry builds able to use light and medium shields, and non-parry builds to train for added benefit from medium and tower.


((Quote edited to remove numbers because I'm not married to the numbers ))


Further ideas: 2 feats, one for deflection, one for absorption.


Name of Feat: Shield Style: Buckler
Requirements: Shield Proficiency, Improved Parry
Effect: You have grown adept at intercepting and turning aside blows with smaller shields, actively moving them towards your opponent to intercept blows instead of keeping them passively at your side. When you have a light shield equipped you now gain +1 Dodge AC for every X points of Parry skill you have, up to a maximum of Z. If you have a medium shield equipped, you gain +1 Dodge AC for every Y points of Parry, up to a maximum of Z. You do not get any Parry AC bonuses for using a tower shield.

(( Where Y > X ))


Name of Feat: Shield Style: Wall
Requirements: Shield Proficiency, Base Attack Bonus +6 or better
Effect: You have mastered the art of absorbing blows with the parts of the shield not directly over your arm, and flexing your arm to cushion the impact. When you have a medium shield equipped, you gain X% physical damage immunity. When you have a tower shield equipped, you gain Y% physical damage immunity. You do not gain any damage immunity for using a light shield.

((Where Y > X ))


Note that a parry build who can overcome the -2 penalty of the medium shield and has sufficiently high parry skill can take both feats and while using a medium shield, benefit from both


Another thought that just occurred to me is that the second feat could have the amount of damage immunity based upon the character's Discipline skill. Such as with a medium shield the character gains 1% damage immunity for every Y points of Discipline, up to a maximum of Z, and using a tower shield gains 3% damage immunity plus 1% of damage immunity for every X points of Discipline, up to a maximum of Z+4(ish), where Y > X. This would result in the damage immunity feat having the same amount of feat and skill and gear investment as Parry. Or something. Point being that damage immunity to be based on Discipline skill, and it being easier to get higher immunity and at lower levels with a tower than with a medium.

The two feats together would make light shields, "bucklers", popular with "fencing" Parry builds who are willing to forgo the extra attack of two weapons in favour of no attack penalty, without loosing out on AC, Tower Shields would still be the way to go for non-parry builds, and medium shields might become popular with those willing and able to invest in both Parry and Discipline.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 04:17:16 PM by FlattedFifth »

Zwickelfaust

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2017, 07:42:05 AM »
I like the idea of using discipline over parry for these feats.
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Syl

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2017, 10:11:39 AM »
So.. an idea just came to mind fir a feat.. blame fifth edition for it but more so to help fighter still even if but a little.. But say have a feat for pure fighter where they grown quick enough with using the shield they can add it's ac to their reflex. Small giving +1  large +2 tower +3

This could be seen as over powering but since many fighters only wear heavy they tend to have a low dex

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FlattedFifth

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2017, 12:01:14 PM »
I like the idea of using discipline over parry for these feats.

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I think it should result in the same investment of feats and skills (The new feat + skill focus discipline + discipline gear ). However, there's no armor penalty to Discipline, so the amount of discipline required should be quite high. Maybe for every 10 or 15 instead of Parry's 5.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 12:03:24 PM by FlattedFifth »

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2017, 12:17:17 PM »
I like the idea of using discipline over parry for these feats.

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I think it should result in the same investment of feats and skills (The new feat + skill focus discipline + discipline gear ). However, there's no armor penalty to Discipline, so the amount of discipline required should be quite high. Maybe for every 10 or 15 instead of Parry's 5.

Could have it set to 5 points naturally invested like tumble

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2017, 12:41:59 PM »
So.. an idea just came to mind fir a feat.. blame fifth edition for it but more so to help fighter still even if but a little.. But say have a feat for pure fighter where they grown quick enough with using the shield they can add it's ac to their reflex. Small giving +1  large +2 tower +3

This could be seen as over powering but since many fighters only wear heavy they tend to have a low dex

 My character wears full plate, uses a tower shield, and he can easily get to 20 reflex saves before factoring in spellcraft. He is high level, granted, but that is still a respectable number. I don't think adding a feat similar to this is necessary, but if any is to be added, I would suggest adding a feat that gives +1 to fortitude saves.


 
Mainly for IC sense reasons do I harp on the more AC thing. I don't think it makes IC sense for a guy with a giant piece of wood and steel covering most of the left side of his body to be less good at blocking blows than a guy with a dagger in his left hand, and has to resort to MAGIC to get as good or better.

However, I'm not completely married to the idea of higher AC for shields. See my last suggestion which involved Parry builds able to use light and medium shields, and non-parry builds to train for added benefit from medium and tower.


((Quote edited to remove numbers because I'm not married to the numbers ))


Further ideas: 2 feats, one for deflection, one for absorption.


Name of Feat: Shield Style: Buckler
Requirements: Shield Proficiency, Improved Parry
Effect: You have grown adept at intercepting and turning aside blows with smaller shields, actively moving them towards your opponent to intercept blows instead of keeping them passively at your side. When you have a light shield equipped you now gain +1 Dodge AC for every X points of Parry skill you have, up to a maximum of Z. If you have a medium shield equipped, you gain +1 Dodge AC for every Y points of Parry, up to a maximum of Z. You do not get any Parry AC bonuses for using a tower shield.

(( Where Y > X ))


Name of Feat: Shield Style: Wall
Requirements: Shield Proficiency, Base Attack Bonus +6 or better
Effect: You have mastered the art of absorbing blows with the parts of the shield not directly over your arm, and flexing your arm to cushion the impact. When you have a medium shield equipped, you gain X% physical damage immunity. When you have a tower shield equipped, you gain Y% physical damage immunity. You do not gain any damage immunity for using a light shield.

((Where Y > X ))


Note that a parry build who can overcome the -2 penalty of the medium shield and has sufficiently high parry skill can take both feats and while using a medium shield, benefit from both


Another thought that just occurred to me is that the second feat could have the amount of damage immunity based upon the character's Discipline skill. Such as with a medium shield the character gains 1% damage immunity for every Y points of Discipline, up to a maximum of Z, and using a tower shield gains 3% damage immunity plus 1% of damage immunity for every X points of Discipline, up to a maximum of Z+4(ish), where Y > X. This would result in the damage immunity feat having the same amount of feat and skill and gear investment as Parry. Or something. Point being that damage immunity to be based on Discipline skill, and it being easier to get higher immunity and at lower levels with a tower than with a medium.

The two feats together would make light shields, "bucklers", popular with "fencing" Parry builds who are willing to forgo the extra attack of two weapons in favour of no attack penalty, without loosing out on AC, Tower Shields would still be the way to go for non-parry builds, and medium shields might become popular with those willing and able to invest in both Parry and Discipline.

 I believe everyone agrees to adding something that makes large and small shields more relevant, including myself, and everyone also seems to agree that adding a feat and letting them scale with parry up to tower shield AC is a good way to go about it. I don't see its relevance to this discussion, as unless you have a different suggestion on how to do it, it is up to the developers to decide if it is something that should be implemented and then work out the numbers and specifics.

 As for your other point, we are talking about an OOC mechanic and how to balance around it. Feats that are more appropriate for IC fluff were suggested, but this is a game that has OOC mechanics behind it and those have to be considered before adding anything into the game, even for IC reasons. The only time and situation I think it makes sense and wouldn't be overly strong to give shield users more AC would be against ranged attacks. If you have a justification for giving shields more AC or damage immunity based on how they function on the OOC spectrum of the thing, from a balance perspective, then please go on ahead and share them with us. Otherwise, I think it would be healthier to work on things that are good for IC fluff but don't give unnecessary strength to shield users.

 And on a somewhat less relevant point, can someone explain to me why everyone seems to want to lock feats behind pure fighter? Aside from the fact that they would have to have a level requirement of 16 to be truly exclusive to fighters, but I don't see the point. Fighter class has always been the class that is designed for those who are new to DnD. They don't have to bother with spells, spell slots and preparing spells and the like, they don't have to bother much with skill points and how to allocate them, which is more of a PnP problem than a NWN one, and they get a lot of feats so the player can experiment with different feats, and otherwise is very straightforward to play. They also get weapon specialization to give a little more power to the class, and it has a requirement of fighter 4 and not more because 4 levels of fighter works well into many multiclass builds, for example splashing 4 levels of fighter with any 3/4 bab growth class will give the character a 4th attack. I think the fighter class has its place as a simple class for new players, and as a class that is the staple of many multiclass builds, as well as very feat hungry builds. I don't see what we have to gain by adding full fighter only feats or bonuses, and it might even detract from its other qualities.

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2017, 02:55:01 PM »
Your character is also part rogue  there Night. Lol
And the feat would require a pure fighter
A pure fighter went have that high. Even if say my tiefling fighter level , 15 that's 5 from levels 4 from dex that's only 9 reflex 10 with luck of hero's and the feat would only give him another 2 from the shield reflex feat. Giving a 12 reflex. Let's add enchanted gear. +1 from boots +2 from armor. Thanks 15 reflex  before spell craft so for a pure fighter the feat is useful fir any fighter rogue silt.. no need


Though I an curious why would it give fort?

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2017, 03:50:12 PM »
Although the topic already has split once, maybe the discussion should be in one thread and the feats in the other?? Like with suggested items?

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2017, 04:38:14 PM »
Your character is also part rogue  there Night. Lol
And the feat would require a pure fighter
A pure fighter went have that high. Even if say my tiefling fighter level , 15 that's 5 from levels 4 from dex that's only 9 reflex 10 with luck of hero's and the feat would only give him another 2 from the shield reflex feat. Giving a 12 reflex. Let's add enchanted gear. +1 from boots +2 from armor. Thanks 15 reflex  before spell craft so for a pure fighter the feat is useful fir any fighter rogue silt.. no need


Though I an curious why would it give fort?

 Fortitude works better for a shield from my perspective, much more so than reflex, and there are also shields in the game already that have a penalty to reflex saves, because they are cubersome things, and there is at least one shield that gives a bonus to fortitude saves and a penalty to reflex saves, The Traitor's Penance.

 Also, it's not only full fighters or full clerics that use shields, and how it might effect different type of characters is something that needs to be kept in mind while making balance changes. A full ranger even, for example, would have a higher reflex save than my character, and even though they are often played as archers or dual wielders, I had success with shield using rangers in the past and they work quite well.

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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2017, 07:00:19 AM »
I rather like these ideas, but perhaps to balance it out with parry users, the AC granted is an additional shield AC applied to your shield! With tower shields having a maximum bonus of +2, large +3, and buckles +4, this balances out to match parry evenly, and yet even so can be made higher with varnishes or a high enough caster, however having these bonuses means you won't always need such, and are more prepared and skilled to use them without magic. The bonuses would essentially permit a buckler user to get the max AC they can after they've invested enough skill, a large shield user to be naturally as good as they can be before someone can grant +4, and a tower shield user more than skilled enough to get a solid AC bonus that they won't have to have varnish or spell applied- yet still can for higher than a +2. This keeps them on pat with parry users, still allowing them to be better with magic as natural of a shield+Magic combo, and yet doesn't unbalance things with dodge AC permitting a shield user to stack tower +3, with dodge bonuses, and then magic which is another +1-+4. This essentially would represent skill with a shield quite well, giving them their due bonuses to remain on par with parry always, yet still allowing magic to bump them a little higher as someone using a shield rightly deserves.
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Re: Suggestions for Shield feats
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2017, 08:29:00 PM »
I think this is going about the wrong way. Wrong focus. Shield users don't need more AC. (Sure, small shield users could use some to compensate, that'd be cool. But only to a maximum of what's achieved with a tower, and only after taking feats for it).

But we do not need to be adding AC to shield users. Some of the stuff presented here is crazy high. Like, literally a feat for +5 more AC than what a shield could have already been giving? Plz no! We don't need to be adding new sources of large amounts of AC to the server balance in general. Those are huge changes that impact literally everyone.

Try to look at other bonuses, instead. Maybe the larger the shield, it comes with a larger discipline bonus. Maybe even a concentration bonus, to help against antagonizes (Though Divine Spellcasters would be very happy). Damage immunity is probably a little too much. AC is definitely a little too much. I personally like discipline bonuses with shields (Which can be as easy as adjusting lootbin items, or as hard as feats), because it gives you a more defensive umpf against knockdowns and disarms-- whereas the two-hander is going to be getting advantages in disarming due to size category. So it's like a flip-flop-- only, the defensive side also gets bonuses against KD.