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Author Topic: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix  (Read 21259 times)

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2017, 12:44:16 AM »

Level 12.
15 Base Parry
+2 Dex
-7 from half plate
That's only +1 parry AC because you're leaving out the two feats you need to take it to +3 and the -at least- one wasted gear slot on a +3 parry bonus.

I'm not leaving out anything. I'd get +3 from improved parry, +3 from skill focus parry, and have +2 parry bracers (or better, if they exist). Total of -7 from half plate, +8 from feats and dex, +2 from bracers, and +2 from bard song, total +5 adjusted, plus the 15 from spent points at level 12, equals +4 ac.

Please don't make assumptions. If I say I can do it, I mean I can do it.

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2017, 12:50:45 AM »

Because that person who has invested and trained extensively in a skill can and should have skills equal to or better than someone who strapped some wood to his arm and went herr durr shield.

And that's why my suggestion is for there to be an option to invest in feats, training extensively to use shields more effectively, NOT for parry to be nerfed, NOR for shields to be given any automatic advantage.

Really, no one is suggesting your greatsword-weilding teifling be changed in any way. Relax.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2017, 12:53:49 AM »
and have the same AC at the end

There's the operative phrase. That one right there. 18 Strength character with Greatsword = 1d12 + 6 damage. 18 Strength character with Longsword and tower  shield = 1d8 + 4 damage. Weight of greatsword, about 12 lbs, I believe? Weight of tower shield + longsword = minimum 30 lbs. These two should not EVER have the same AC on a permanent, non-buffed basis.

With all due respect, your opinion isn't fact and the majority of people here seem to disagree with your assessment.  You may feel strongly that things are unbalanced but generally speaking when the majority of people agree on the state of something, that speaks more for it being balanced accordingly to the satisfaction of the community than not.

You seem to be a new player.  You're tossing about a lot of claims that just aren't factually consistent and I think if when you've been on the server as long as some of the people responding to you you'll see that.  Fact of the matter is you have no evidence to suggest the lack of shield use is purely - or even half - to do with any form of mechanic.  You're also a quite bit off on the assumption that only a small amount of people enchant their items that can be dropped.

I think maybe you should play a bit more, get a better feel for things.

Summing up my opinion in an eloquent manner, thank you  :)

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2017, 12:56:39 AM »
FlattedFifth your entire thread is based on your own assumption that there is a lack of shield use due to mechanics.  I would request that you prove that before you start telling other people not to make assumptions of their own.



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Re: Shields/Parry discussion
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2017, 12:58:13 AM »
You said you could get +4 Parry AC in your half plate with dex. You didn't cover all the -other- things you'd need to do it at that level and you certainly never mentioned buffs. Don't move the goal posts, please.

Night of Reod

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2017, 01:00:24 AM »
Going to play the devil's advocate here.

It doesn't matter that if it's "balanced" or not. It matters that it makes 'sense' more than anything.

What are you going to trust to stop a great sword coming at your left side that you can't evade? A flimsy parrying dagger, or a tower shield? Lol. Something should be done about shields, regardless. I find it absolutely pointless to have one because one blade apparently = +5 ac (enchanted tower shield?).

 If we are talking about "making sense," there is a reason why shields were less commonly used towards the late medieval period, after the introduction full plate armor, and why halberds started to become very common. Also, in terms of making sense, a 45 lbs tower shield is not really something you can lug around in combat or use to parry blows with to much effect. Historically, they were almost exclusive used by archers and more commonly crossbowmen to reload/redraw behind. And there is a slew of other historical inaccuracies and mistakes in both DnD and NWN.

 
Were I to suggest anything, I would suggest adding % immunity based on the weight class of each shield. 5% for small, 10% for large, 15% for tower shields. They should make up for that weight instead of just shoving it into a magic bag when you're done using it at the very least. If this is the case with some shields already, I have no idea, but some input from a Developer would be nice.

This is also an excellent idea, and I like it a lot, though this would not require any feats. A lot of people seem to be fixated on the number of feats the parry build requires and my pointing out that feats are cheap here seems to be falling on deaf ears.

 You may be of the opinion that feats are cheap, but it is one I disagree with. With how high DCs can get in PotM, how important having access to expertise and even improved expertise feats can be, and especially if you are a spellcasting class that wants to use metamagic or class specific feats, feats can actually be quite tight. Currently my shield using character has 15 feats, and I don't have power attack, cleave and skill focus: listen even though I want them because I don't have feats to spend on those.

 
Were I to suggest anything, I would suggest adding % immunity based on the weight class of each shield. 5% for small, 10% for large, 15% for tower shields. They should make up for that weight instead of just shoving it into a magic bag when you're done using it at the very least. If this is the case with some shields already, I have no idea, but some input from a Developer would be nice.

 I stuff my armor into a magic bag when I am done as well, or my weapon for that matter. Shields are indeed heavy, but their weight is nowhere near unmanageable, especially if you use a chitin shield.

 I think you are overestimating how much more damage a two handed weapon user gets over a shield user. Assuming 30 str and comparing an enchanted bastard sword and enchanted greatsword, the greatsword only does 8 damage more per hit on average, and the shield gets one to two more points of AC. 30 str is quite high and not accessible to many characters. A more commonplace assumption would be 24 str, and it is also likely that +4 enhancement will be available for most high-end situations, which brings the damage advantage of the greatsword over the bastard sword to 5.5 damage per hit on average. Considering a single point of AC can potentially halve the damage you take, and you spend one to two feats and 20 skill points less on the bastard sword, it sounds like a very fair trade to me. Not to mention, you get +1 to all saves from an enchanted shield, and there are magical shields in the game, including the strongest DR item I am aware of and a shield with 50% fire immunity and only 18 lbs of weight, I think there is definitely an incentive to go for a shield using build.

 As for dual wielding builds, dual wielding requires the investment of at least 15 dexterity, 17 if you want to get improved two weapon defence, as well as at least 4 feats and the usual 20 skill points. If you are using heavy armor, you will likely need 5 if not 6 feats to get the full benefit of parry, and otherwise you will need to invest more into dex. Not only does this stop you from using certain types of weapons, as you want to use finesse weapons, but it also means you have less points to spend on your other stats, and there is the usual penalty to ab from dual wielding. In the end, you do end up with lower ab, often less HP and carry weight, less skill points and considerably less feats than a shield user, and if you are fighting against something with DR, or something with high AC, you can end up doing significantly less damage. As I stated before, I wouldn't mind having dual wielding parry AC cap at 6, but otherwise, it does have steep requirements and certain disadvantages. Again, I can definitely find an incentive to go for a shield using build.

 I think trying to give absolute power to shields in the form of AC is not required, they are certainly viable for all the content the server has to offer. I think implementing such changes would make other options too weak compared to shields even. If there must be something added to aid shield users, I would like to see it in the form of utility, such as a shield bash that can give a bonus to knockdown attempts or a feat that makes it easier for a shield user to resist knockdown attempts, or bonuses to certain skills.

 On the other hand, small shields are almost completely useless, and large shields don't have much charm as well unless you are a halfling or a gnome. I would love to see something implemented that makes these two options viable at the cost of some feats, and/or skills points.


You're right, the tower shield has more.

By the time the greatsword user peaks at +5, which is very difficult without some dexterity and lighter armor, the tower shield user will have an enchanted tower shield +7 to AC.

You know a lot of people who enchant something that drops when they die? And by level 12 I could get +4 ac from parry, with my character's 14 dex and half plate.  Not difficult then to get +5 by lvl 17 without even raising my dex above the 14 it was at character creation. If I wanted to go the 2 handed route, I could get +7 if I raised my dex at lvls 8, 12, and 16, which would still leave my character with 16 strength.

No, you can't convince me that parry isn't over-powered. Which would you rather see? Parry nerfed, or shields be made a bit more worth the added weight and lowered offense?

 Saying you can't be convinced that your opinion may not be true is really not a healthy attitude for a constructive discussion.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 01:14:03 AM by Night of Reod »

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2017, 01:08:12 AM »
How about a feat that let you use 3/4 Parry with small shields and 1/2 parry with large shields?
That way we could have a more viable selection with the shields and decrease a portion of the lovely, but [mostly] unused large and small shields.

Night of Reod

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2017, 01:11:20 AM »
How about a feat that let you use 3/4 Parry with small shields and 1/2 parry with large shields?

 That is along the lines of what I would suggest as well, up to a cap of course. So for a small shield, a parry skill of 10 or 15 could be necessary to get you up to par with a tower shield, and for a large shield, a parry skill of 5-10, and of course having a feat to enable this bonus to take place, much like how improved unarmed combat enables gaining parry bonus while unarmed.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 01:18:49 AM by Night of Reod »

Amon-Si

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2017, 01:19:48 AM »
Perhaps, for Balance you'd want to make it harder to get parry out of the large shield.
So, say 14 Parry will get you +2 with a small shield but only +1 on the large shield? That alone would take them to tower shield levels, and you could have items like Bucklers.

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields/Parry discussion
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2017, 01:20:15 AM »
You said you could get +4 Parry AC in your half plate with dex. You didn't cover all the -other- things you'd need to do it at that level and you certainly never mentioned buffs. Don't move the goal posts, please.

No one's moving goal posts. I said I could do it. You should have believed me. You know that those feats and gear would be required , I know it, too. I didn't think it was necessary to spell it out. If I use my lvl 8 and 12 ability bonuses on dex and switch to banded mail, I wont even need any bard song because +3 dex +6 from feats +2 from bracers -6 from armor gives a net gain of +5. This is common knowledge too.

I really don't know why everyone is getting so upset, but I am starting to remember one of the reasons why I killed off Tabby and left 5 years or so ago.


How about a feat that let you use 3/4 Parry with small shields and 1/2 parry with large shields?
That way we could have a more viable selection with the shields and decrease a portion of the lovely, but [mostly] unused large and small shields.

I like this idea, too. Maybe keep the Improved Parry Feat requirement, and make it so that you get, as you say, ac bonus equal to Parry/5 * .75, rounded up? Down? Who cares, at least it would make shields worth their weight and, as you say, make light and medium shields useful.


the majority of people here seem to disagree with your assessment.

Actually, looking back and counting, it appears that we have, including myself 7 people who agree that shields need to be made more useful in some way, 4 people who do not, and four people who seem to be ambivalent about whether or not anything needs to change.


 So.... that's 7 for, 4 against, and 4 abstentions. But as usual, the against camp types the longest and most often (except for myself). :D


Night of Reod

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2017, 01:26:45 AM »
Perhaps, for Balance you'd want to make it harder to get parry out of the large shield.
So, say 14 Parry will get you +2 with a small shield but only +1 on the large shield? That alone would take them to tower shield levels, and you could have items like Bucklers.

 I was more thinking you would need more parry skill to make use of the small shield as effectively, and the large shield has a higher armor check penalty and more weight to balance it out.

Amon-Si

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2017, 01:30:23 AM »
Perhaps, for Balance you'd want to make it harder to get parry out of the large shield.
So, say 14 Parry will get you +2 with a small shield but only +1 on the large shield? That alone would take them to tower shield levels, and you could have items like Bucklers.

 I was more thinking you would need more parry skill to make use of the small shield as effectively, and the large shield has a higher armor check penalty and more weight to balance it out.

That makes sense too, the devs would decide in the end, of course!

I still don't feel there is an imbalance with Parry vs Shields, certainly not as glaring a one as you seem to feel, Fifth.
I have extensive experience playing both Character types over the last five years and I have a shield user who can hit 70AC and none of my parry builds can even scratch that.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2017, 01:37:12 AM »
I thought FinalHeaven had to be joking or sarcastic the first time he tossed this off:

Quote
Perhaps the rarity of shields has nothing to do with mechanics and instead has to do with what people prefer for their character aesthetics? 

But then he repeated it twice more so does he truly believe it???

Then there should be no objection to adding FlattedFifth's suggested feats!!

No one is going to use them anyway because we all just build our characters based on aesthetics rather than mechanics. So unless shields are made prettier for us, we'll never use them :)
Quote
your entire thread is based on your own assumption that there is a lack of shield use due to mechanics.  I would request that you prove that

If you read this thread and the detailed statistical arguments (based on mechanics) being made, it's all the evidence you need how most players make their decisions. I've not seen a single post saying, "Oooohh...I'll never use a shield because it's just too darn ugly."

They are much easier to equip right before combat without breaking immersion than actual armor is. But plenty PCs forego a nice dress and go banging around in full armor despite the appearance because of the mechanical advantage.

In fact it seems obvious to me that those who dislike the aesthetics of a shield would be most happy that shields are underpowerd. That way Port dandies don't have to be at a disadvantage by foregoing them :P

I don't think FlattedFifth has to prove something is self-evident in a mechanics-based game to anyone not being disingenuous.

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FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2017, 01:46:03 AM »
I thought FinalHeaven had to be joking or sarcastic the first time he tossed this off:

Quote
Perhaps the rarity of shields has nothing to do with mechanics and instead has to do with what people prefer for their character aesthetics? 

But then he repeated it twice more so does he truly believe it???

Then there should be no objection to adding FlattedFifth's suggested feats!!

No one is going to use them anyway because we all just build our characters based on aesthetics rather than mechanics. So unless shields are made prettier for us, we'll never use them :)
Quote
your entire thread is based on your own assumption that there is a lack of shield use due to mechanics.  I would request that you prove that

If you read this thread and the detailed statistical arguments (based on mechanics) being made, it's all the evidence you need how most players make their decisions. I've not seen a single post saying, "Oooohh...I'll never use a shield because it's just too darn ugly."

They are much easier to equip right before combat without breaking immersion than actual armor is. But plenty PCs forego a nice dress and go banging around in full armor despite the appearance because of the mechanical advantage.

In fact it seems obvious to me that those who dislike the aesthetics of a shield would be most happy that shields are underpowerd. That way Port dandies don't have to be at a disadvantage by foregoing them :P

I don't think FlattedFifth has to prove something is self-evident in a mechanics-based game to anyone not being disingenuous.

This.

All. Of. This.

I'm not at all suggesting, folks, that anyone suffer any disadvantage, or that parry be nerfed. Just that someone be able to specifically train to be able to get more defense out of a shield. 2 additional ac is all I suggested for the 20 lbs added weight and less than 3/4 damage,in exchange for spending additional feats, and yet some have reacted as though I've suggested that shields have pop-out glider wings that allow us to fly over our enemies and drop bombs on them from the sky.

Come on, I'm saving that suggestion for another thread. :P

FinalHeaven

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2017, 01:49:31 AM »
I thought FinalHeaven had to be joking or sarcastic the first time he tossed this off:

Quote
Perhaps the rarity of shields has nothing to do with mechanics and instead has to do with what people prefer for their character aesthetics? 

But then he repeated it twice more so does he truly believe it???

Then there should be no objection to adding FlattedFifth's suggested feats!!

No one is going to use them anyway because we all just build our characters based on aesthetics rather than mechanics. So unless shields are made prettier for us, we'll never use them :)
Quote
your entire thread is based on your own assumption that there is a lack of shield use due to mechanics.  I would request that you prove that

If you read this thread and the detailed statistical arguments (based on mechanics) being made, it's all the evidence you need how most players make their decisions. I've not seen a single post saying, "Oooohh...I'll never use a shield because it's just too darn ugly."

They are much easier to equip right before combat without breaking immersion than actual armor is. But plenty PCs forego a nice dress and go banging around in full armor despite the appearance because of the mechanical advantage.

In fact it seems obvious to me that those who dislike the aesthetics of a shield would be most happy that shields are underpowerd. That way Port dandies don't have to be at a disadvantage by foregoing them :P

I don't think FlattedFifth has to prove something is self-evident in a mechanics-based game to anyone not being disingenuous.

A 3 page forum thread is not representative of most players on the server.  You are quite literally making up that the "majority" of players make their decisions this way.
In my history of playing Neverwinter Nights I have never played a character that uses a shield because I find them visually unappealing.  So, that is at least one.  How many more do you think might be of a similar opinion? 

I welcome you to quote where I stated that I object outright to the suggested feats.



Actually, looking back and counting, it appears that we have, including myself 7 people who agree that shields need to be made more useful in some way, 4 people who do not, and four people who seem to be ambivalent about whether or not anything needs to change.


 So.... that's 7 for, 4 against, and 4 abstentions. But as usual, the against camp types the longest and most often (except for myself). :D

Your math is interesting.  When I go back and look I can't find 7 people that agree with your proposal in it's original form with no other comments or suggestions of their own.  I suspect you're taking liberties with their posts and assuming that because they like the potential for new feats for shield users that they agree with your broad statements.

You still have yet to prove that the (assumed) disproportionate ratio of shield users to dual wielders has anything to do with mechanics.  You've yet to prove that most people don't enchant items that they can drop.  The only thing that you've proven without a doubt is that you believe yourself to be knowledgeable about a community that you have admitted to not being a part of for 5 years and that you have a knack for shifting the goalposts.

I certainly hope that you will continue to play and enjoy the community and it's state of balance for what it is today, I think you'll find that you can easily get yourself back to a knowledgeable state of things as they are now with time and effort.



Amon-Si

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2017, 01:51:30 AM »
I'm in favor of more shield AC for pure fighters.
Make it a fighter only feat that needs a certain number of levels like weapon Spec does and I'm on board.
AND maybe allow the small and large shield a parry bonus for a greater range of options in both aesthetic and play style


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« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 01:54:51 AM by Amon-Si »

FlattedFifth

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2017, 01:57:11 AM »


Actually, looking back and counting, it appears that we have, including myself 7 people who agree that shields need to be made more useful in some way, 4 people who do not, and four people who seem to be ambivalent about whether or not anything needs to change.


 So.... that's 7 for, 4 against, and 4 abstentions. But as usual, the against camp types the longest and most often (except for myself). :D

Your math is interesting.  When I go back and look I can't find 7 people that agree with your proposal in it's original form with no other comments or suggestions of their own.

AHEM

Please show me where I specifically said there were 7 people who agreed with my proposal with no other comments or suggestions of their own. Look, what I said was......

7 people who agree that shields need to be made more useful in some way

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2017, 02:04:08 AM »


Actually, looking back and counting, it appears that we have, including myself 7 people who agree that shields need to be made more useful in some way, 4 people who do not, and four people who seem to be ambivalent about whether or not anything needs to change.


 So.... that's 7 for, 4 against, and 4 abstentions. But as usual, the against camp types the longest and most often (except for myself). :D

Your math is interesting.  When I go back and look I can't find 7 people that agree with your proposal in it's original form with no other comments or suggestions of their own.

AHEM

Please show me where I specifically said there were 7 people who agreed with my proposal with no other comments or suggestions of their own. Look, what I said was......

7 people who agree that shields need to be made more useful in some way

I'm not going to continue a game of quoting back and forth with you if you're going to snip out parts of the quotes so that they lose context and better fit your narrative.

Person A agreeing with the idea of a new feat (or something else) making shields more useful does not mean that Person A agrees with your continued insistence that the system as is is broken or unbalanced.



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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2017, 08:43:48 AM »
Mr. Heaven: With all due respect, bless your heart!

Poodle-de-doo  :P

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2017, 09:46:31 AM »
This thread is pretty much going nowhere at the moment. Most of the latest arguments are calling out people.

Most people seem to agree that shields could get a little more love, but calling shields underpower and parry overpowered is somewhere I wouldn't go.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2017, 09:55:00 AM »
This has been going no where for some time now. I'll content myself with the knowledge I've gained on certain personalities in this thread and let you all carry on. 

 :P




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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2017, 11:26:28 AM »
I don't usually pop my head in on these things but let's not forget shield has the added benefit of  being able to enchant and being another thing that can be buffed by a friendly cleric. Vestment spell giving your shield a bonus up to +4 is incredibly useful. That alone is +7 ac with just a regular old tower shield u picked up for a handful of coins. This is the same ac given by max parry and two feats.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2017, 11:45:01 AM »
There is very few people who actually enchant their shields, because they can be dropped and lost, they are so costy to enchant, and that most people who use shields are actually clerics who don't need encahnted shield to get the +4.

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2017, 12:02:58 PM »
There is very few people who actually enchant their shields, because they can be dropped and lost, they are so costy to enchant, and that most people who use shields are actually clerics who don't need encahnted shield to get the +4.

Personally, I would poll everyone on the server before making such a claim. Maybe they don't enchant their shields because of aesthetics  :P

As for clerics, we are notorious for our fashion crimes :)

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Re: Shields too weak compared to Parry, suggested fix
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2017, 12:06:03 PM »
There is very few people who actually enchant their shields, because they can be dropped and lost, they are so costy to enchant, and that most people who use shields are actually clerics who don't need encahnted shield to get the +4.

Personally, I would poll everyone on the server before making such a claim. Maybe they don't enchant their shields because of aesthetics  :P

As for clerics, we are notorious for our fashion crimes :)

You already brought up that point, not sure why you bring it up again?