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Author Topic: Sunbeam and Sunburst  (Read 4886 times)

Iridni Ren

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Sunbeam and Sunburst
« on: February 06, 2017, 10:13:42 AM »
Clerics with the Sun domain are supposed to get Sunbeam at 7th level rather than 8th.

But!!

According to the Wiki, Sunbeam isn't available to clerics at all. It's description only lists it as a 7th level Druid spell and it's not listed under cleric at either level.

Do clerics get it? Do Sun domain clerics get it?

Not important, but why do druids get it at 7? It's supposed to be 8 for them. They also get sunburst at 8, which is a better spell and clerics don't get. Do Sun domain clerics get sunburst?

Seems like druids have been made better with the Sun than Sun domain clerics. Grumble, grumble :)

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Night of Reod

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2017, 10:24:05 AM »
 Druids tend to get offensive divine spells one spell level earlier than clerics, and in return clerics get healing spells one spell level earlier than druids. There are exclusive spells to each class of course, but as a rule of thumb, clerics are more defense and healing oriented with their spells and how quickly they acquired them, and druids are more offense and debuff oriented.

 As for the other question, only sun domain clerics get Sunburst and they do it as a 7th level spell. It will be added to your spell list once you have a 7th level spell slot, and you can use it as regular. Do keep in mind that you can't use a spell slot you prepared a domain spell with for spontaneous casting, unless it is a cleric spell your domain allows you to access earlier.

 And sun domain clerics don't get Sunburst as a spell, sun domain should show as a feat on your character sheet and you can check the description for the details of what it provides at any time.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2017, 10:41:01 AM »
A general statement about when druids and clerics get overall spells does not answer why an individual spell was moved a slot lower for druids from regular NWN. From your answer, I also conclude that normal clerics don't get either spell now, so clerics aren't getting it one level later.

" only sun domain clerics get Sunburst and they do it as a 7th level spell."

You mean sunbeam? Because later you say they don't get sunburst.

I know what my character sheet says, but I was reading the NWN wiki to figure out why there are two spells so easy to confuse. Then I read the server wiki in hopes of better clarification, and I see that sunbeam is listed only as a druid spell.

Anways...thanks for your input.





 

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Night of Reod

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2017, 11:27:16 AM »
 I meant sunbeam indeed, and any changes from vanilla NWN are done by the development team for balance or flavour purposes. As you said, they get Sunburst at spell level 8, which is pretty much a better version of the spell, and that is probably why they moved Sunbeam a spell slot lower.

  And domain spells are treated differently. Domains can give you access to spells that are otherwise not accessible to clerics or even divine casters, for example a trickery domain cleric can cast invisibility, and they are treated as divine spells for armor penalty. The only limitation is the spontaneous casting, which I believe is a limitation of the engine more than anything else. That is why the wiki states Sunbeam as only a druid spell.

 There are changes to how many spells work, and there are quite a number of new spells as well. There are changelogs on the forums, I believe you can find more information regarding the changes to spell and the reasons behind them there.

 Perhaps adding relevant domain information to the relevant spells, such as changing the wording for the description of Sunbeam from "Spell Level: Druid 7" to "Spell Level: Druid 7, Sun Domain Cleric 7" could help avoid confusion in the future.

 

Iridni Ren

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2017, 01:20:01 PM »
I read through the spell change log before asking :)

Unless there's another thread beside this: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=2173

I'll say one more thing regarding your point about offense and healing:

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There are exclusive spells to each class of course, but as a rule of thumb, clerics are more defense and healing oriented with their spells and how quickly they acquired them, and druids are more offense and debuff oriented.

Sunburst and sunbeam are offensive spells, but their main target is undead. Much less effective against everything else.

Undead are more the specialty of normal clerics, not druids.

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Night of Reod

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2017, 01:31:59 PM »
 They are also very "natural" spells, utilizing sunlight, and druids represent nature and life, which is more or less the opposite of unlife. To my knowledge, there are quite a few druid orders who seek to destroy undead in Forgotten Realms and other settings.

 As for my point, I was mostly referring to the Heal and "Healing Circle spells, which the clerics get one spell slot earlier than druids do. Clerics also get Mass Negative Energy Protection and Mass Death ward a level earlier than druids, for example. As for druids, they get spells such as "Regeneration" and its variants a level early, as well as offensive spells such as Fire Storm and Ice Flowers. Clerics also have access to defensive spells that druids don't have access to, such as Magic Vestment and Aura Against Alignment, while druids have access to offensive spells that are not available to clerics, such as Deadly Lahar and Finger of Death, and some unique offensive spells as well, such as Call lightning and Sunbeam. It of course doesn't apply to all situations, for example the druids have access to Barkskin spell, which is a defensive spell unique to them and ranger class, but in general, druids have a spell list more focused on regeneration, debuffs and dealing, often elemental, spell damage while clerics are more focused on regular healing, buffing themselves and buffing others.

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2017, 07:04:31 PM »
As reod said Druids are meant to keep the balance in everything.. that said Undead are a abomination to the balance and nature. they don't actively hunt them down like a cleric or pally might but.. they hate them just as much for upsetting the balance..

Sunbeam is also effective against oozes and puddings if I recall.

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2017, 08:04:10 PM »
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They are also very "natural" spells, utilizing sunlight,

You were talking about them in the context of offensive spells before. Plus, my original point was about Sun Domain clerics.

Who is more in tune with the Sun: a cleric that worships a Sun god and draws her power from that god, or a Druid, that is spread out all over nature, including clouds, the night, snow, many other things that are contrary to the Sun?

These "offensive" spells  target primarily undead.

You want to have it both ways by saying the Sun is natural and so druids have a lot of power when it comes to the things that are related to the Sun. On the other hand, you argue because undead are unnatural druids should have a lot of power over them as well.

You and Syl can't be serious in thinking druids are anywhere comparable to clerics regarding the undead. Can druids turn undead? No. Can they create undead? No.

Druids have all those animal-related powers that clerics can't touch. The comparable area of speciality for clerics is the undead. You mention negative-energy protection. In the standard game that's exclusively a cleric spell, so to me that's just another example of druids stepping into the cleric part of the playground here.

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2017, 08:33:02 PM »
Clerics with the Sun domain are supposed to get Sunbeam at 7th level rather than 8th.

According to our domain thread, that is correct.  Clerics with the Sun domain get sunbeam as a 7th level spell (Cleric level 13).  The Domain Switcher, Clerics, and You! ::GET YOUR DOMAINS AND GET ORTHODOX

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Sun Domain Spells:
2.) Searing Light
7.) Sunbeam

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According to the Wiki, Sunbeam isn't available to clerics at all. It's description only lists it as a 7th level Druid spell and it's not listed under cleric at either level.

Do clerics get it? Do Sun domain clerics get it?

Clerics do not get sunbeam but Sun domain clerics do.  See the above url for reference.  The Wiki isn't all encompassing for everything about the server.  It is a collective community effort to provide easily accessible information.  If you see something missing, feel free to update it (just make sure that you double check before making any changes).  As of right now, the cleric domains are not included in the Wiki.


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Not important, but why do druids get it at 7? It's supposed to be 8 for them. They also get sunburst at 8, which is a better spell and clerics don't get. Do Sun domain clerics get sunburst?
Druids get sunbeam as a 7th level spell per 3.5 D&D rules (See PHB page 190).  Sun domain clerics do not get sunburst on this server.  This was all carefully discussed and deliberated by the developers when they worked on the spells and the cleric domains for the server.  Clerics have many advantages that druids do not, so I'm sure it was all considered for balance purposes between classes.  There is nothing wrong with raising the question or making a suggestion for changes to the character classes.  Constructive and respectful discussions are always welcomed. 


Syl

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2017, 08:30:11 AM »
[quote author=Iridni Ren

You and Syl can't be serious in thinking druids are anywhere comparable to clerics regarding the undead. Can druids turn undead? No. Can they create undead? No.

Druids have all those animal-related powers that clerics can't touch. The comparable area of speciality for clerics is the undead. You mention negative-energy protection. In the standard game that's exclusively a cleric spell, so to me that's just another example of druids stepping into the cleric part of the playground here.
[/quote]

You seen to think just because druids have more nature powers then a cleric they cannot both hate undead. Last I checked a vampire.. Or Wight..Or a mummy our even a skeleton walking on it's own. Due to someone tipping the scales if balance, and their very existence is  against the natural balance of the world. They destroy life

Just because they can't turn undead or create it didn't mean anything.. you're just using abilities and spells to try and defend your claim when you're not looking at the lager picture of what the druid class represents. Which again is the balance of nature... and -life-

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2017, 09:38:45 PM »
The implementation of Sunbeam in Neverwinter Nights differs from the way the spell is described in 3.5e Dungeons and Dragons. For whatever reason, it's an inferior version of Sunburst (which was added in an expansion pack, while Sunbeam was included in the base game).

Anyway, as such, having Sunbeam and Sunburst both be level 8 for Druids did not make sense, as one spell was clearly superior. Looking at the descriptions of Sunbeam and Sunburst on d20srd.org, Sunbeam is listed as a level 7 Druid spell, and Sunburst as a level 8 Druid spell. It didn't take much thinking to just go with that, since it made sense the way the spells progressed in usefulness in Neverwinter Nights. There was also a third sun spell added at Druid level 6, completing a trilogy of sun-based spells that blind and damage undead and oozes.

As far as Clerics go, yes, the removal of Sunbeam from the general spellbook was thematic. There were a few spells that were removed from Druid or Cleric that were not official 3.5e spells for the class (that Bioware had added I presume to pad out spellbooks or make the campaign easier) selections that I felt did not fit the theme of the class, and reasoned the class roles would be clearer without these spells (what Night of Reod described in terms of Druid and Cleric spell selection is prettymuch exactly what I was going for). Examples would be the removal of Spell Resistance from Druids and the removal of Sunbeam from Clerics. It may have been a mistake to remove spells for any reason, I don't know, though I tried to avoid removing spells from classes as much as possible.

The only regret here is that Clerics of the sun domain are missing Sunburst at level 8, but changing domain spells for Clerics is a complicated thing since there are so many domains to choose from, and while for some it may be possible to fill out a domain spell for every spell level, for others there are only a handful, which would make some domains vastly outshine others. Reworking Cleric domains is something that had been heavily discussed but ultimately never went anywhere, since disrupting domains could crush entire character concepts in the name of "balance", it seemed better to not shake the foundation of the class any further. You are always free to make suggestions for individual domains, however, if it is clear other players are on board and the changes seem fair and thematic.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2017, 09:58:19 PM »
Thanks for all that info and background.

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2017, 08:49:35 PM »
Who is more in tune with the Sun: a cleric that worships a Sun god and draws her power from that god, or a Druid, that is spread out all over nature, including clouds, the night, snow, many other things that are contrary to the Sun?

This is contradictory to the very essence of druidic paths which is balance. They are every bit as tied to the sun as they are clouds. Does this mean that druidic power are diluted? No because nature magic is different than arcane and divine magic that comes from deities or other beings of divine power.

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These "offensive" spells  target primarily undead.

Yes but they are just as potent against oozes. Undead upset the balance so I do not see an issue.

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You want to have it both ways by saying the Sun is natural and so druids have a lot of power when it comes to the things that are related to the Sun. On the other hand, you argue because undead are unnatural druids should have a lot of power over them as well.

I would hardly call two spells a lot of power regardless of the spell circle. Arcane casters have far more power over undead that druids.

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You and Syl can't be serious in thinking druids are anywhere comparable to clerics regarding the undead. Can druids turn undead? No. Can they create undead? No.

Which is precisely why two spells do not give them more power over the undead than clerics... sun cleric or otherwise.

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Druids have all those animal-related powers that clerics can't touch. The comparable area of speciality for clerics is the undead. You mention negative-energy protection. In the standard game that's exclusively a cleric spell, so to me that's just another example of druids stepping into the cleric part of the playground here.

Again... a protection against a force that could throw off the balance of nature. What animal-related powers do you refer to? I am curious. Animal shape (including elemental shape) and what else?
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2017, 02:40:02 AM »
Who is more in tune with the Sun: a cleric that worships a Sun god and draws her power from that god, or a Druid, that is spread out all over nature, including clouds, the night, snow, many other things that are contrary to the Sun?

This is contradictory to the very essence of druidic paths which is balance. They are every bit as tied to the sun as they are clouds. Does this mean that druidic power are diluted? No because nature magic is different than arcane and divine magic that comes from deities or other beings of divine power.

You say it's contradictory, but then repeat what I said! You just disagree and believe the Druid should be master of all, even surpassing a priestess who focuses exclusively on the sun.

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These "offensive" spells  target primarily undead.

Yes but they are just as potent against oozes. Undead upset the balance so I do not see an issue.

I don't understand what you mean here.

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You want to have it both ways by saying the Sun is natural and so druids have a lot of power when it comes to the things that are related to the Sun. On the other hand, you argue because undead are unnatural druids should have a lot of power over them as well.

I would hardly call two spells a lot of power* regardless of the spell circle. Arcane casters have far more power over undead that druids.

When I said a "lot of power," I wasn't talking about two spells. I was specifically responding to Syl's general statement about why druids should have power over undead: "You seen to think just because druids have more nature powers then a cleric they cannot both hate undead." And then her proceeding to argue that because undead are not natural and upset the balance, druids should have dominion over them as well. By that logic, nothing should be out of the druid's "specialty."  It encompasses everything natural because "nature"...and everything unnatural because..."balance"!

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You and Syl can't be serious in thinking druids are anywhere comparable to clerics regarding the undead. Can druids turn undead? No. Can they create undead? No.

Which is precisely why two spells do not give them more power over the undead than clerics... sun cleric or otherwise.

See previous.

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Quote
Druids have all those animal-related powers that clerics can't touch. The comparable area of speciality for clerics is the undead. You mention negative-energy protection. In the standard game that's exclusively a cleric spell, so to me that's just another example of druids stepping into the cleric part of the playground here.

Again... a protection against a force that could throw off the balance of nature. What animal-related powers do you refer to? I am curious. Animal shape (including elemental shape) and what else?

Animal companion, animal empathy are a couple more examples.

*By the way, I can throw your same "two measly spells" argument back at you. If sunburst is so minor, how does a Sun domain cleric having a single spell added to her repertoire unbalance the game?

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julienchab

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2017, 07:42:24 AM »
Clerics don't even get their powers from their gods in Ravenloft btw, they lose their connection with it when they enter the Core.

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2017, 07:54:34 AM »
Actually as per Blues ruling they do.  What they lose is a direct connection to their god which allows such things as commune spells.  Same with paladins, which is why they can in fact fall.  As can clerics.

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2017, 09:10:57 AM »
Clerics don't even get their powers from their gods in Ravenloft btw, they lose their connection with it when they enter the Core.
Actually as per Blues ruling they do.  What they lose is a direct connection to their god which allows such things as commune spells.  Same with paladins, which is why they can in fact fall.  As can clerics.

Actually, I'm almost certain it's somewhere in between:

When your god exists, is alive and he favors your cleric, you gets spells from the god.

When your god is dead or is a fake god, or he stopped favoring you whatever reason, the dark powers can surrogate them and give you powers in their stead, making you think you are still getting spells from your alleged god.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2017, 09:18:42 AM »
That issue was argued a lot in this thread:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=44763

I'm going with MAB77's statement about it until someone in authority says otherwise:

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It's plain simple. You cease to believe in the ideals of the power granting you your powers, they cease granting them to you in return. The rules of the D&D multiverse do not change completely because you are on the Demiplane of Dread. The Unspoken Pact only prevents gods from acting directly on the Demiplane, for all practical purpose they are still (probably) the ones granting abilities to their clerics and paladins. The Dark Powers would likely only fill in for darklord candidate individuals.

But!! I also think because of game mechanics we get used to the idea something has to have a definitive answer. In "reality," we can't be certain that all answers work that way. It's kind of difficult when you mash several milieus together and try to make all of them sort of work.

That's why we can have the quasi religious debate we're having about druids versus other types of clerics. (...See how neatly she brings it all back to topic ;)

If in one pantheon the sun is personified and the actual object of veneration but in another pantheon the sun is part of the natural world and subject to human control like an elemental force, how do we reconcile that? We (probably) can't be real-world-centric and say, "We know the sun is not unique at all but one of hundreds of billions of stars." Can we?

Is the sun in Barovia the same sun as in Faerun or Oerth? The answer to that in conventional terms would likely be no, but I think it's more complicated. To make things works you have to gloss a lot and treat a lot of things as ambiguous, even when intellectually we want to be able to answer such questions with a well-informed yes or no.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 09:21:30 AM by Iridni Ren »

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2017, 09:24:29 AM »
I think I read somewhere that the constellations in the Ravenloft sky are fake, they are not destinations where you could actually go. Take this with a huge grain of salt though, been years since I read it and I don't remember the source.
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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2017, 10:27:12 AM »
When your god exists, is alive and he favors your cleric, you gets spells from the god.

When your god is dead or is a fake god, or he stopped favoring you whatever reason, the dark powers can surrogate them and give you powers in their stead, making you think you are still getting spells from your alleged god.

I think I read somewhere that the constellations in the Ravenloft sky are fake, they are not destinations where you could actually go. Take this with a huge grain of salt though, been years since I read it and I don't remember the source.

These are correct.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Sunbeam and Sunburst
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2017, 11:45:37 AM »
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I think I read somewhere that the constellations in the Ravenloft sky are fake, they are not destinations where you could actually go.

To me this is an example of glossing, though. What does "fake" mean?

They could be a collective hallucination with no basis at all in reality, but then Ravenloft itself would almost have to be entirely in collective PC imagination as well.

If not imaginary, then they have to duplicate many of the same functions of "real" constellations to achieve their fakery. Form and function tend to drive one another, so they also therefore must have much of the same form of real constellations.

(That "they are not destinations where you could actually go" does not matter that much in terms of defining what makes them fake. Because of the nature of the Mists, many real places cannot--for all practical purposes--be reached.)

I would guess they are defined as fake to gloss the very inconsistencies I'm talking about. Whenever they don't conform to real-life constellations or some other paradox comes about, the handy explanation is, "They're not real constellations. They're fake."

Just like "Dark Powers!" :P

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