Author Topic: Starvation  (Read 7321 times)

LeviShultz

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2016, 03:17:08 AM »
Pardon, but, if PoTM is not a survival game, then what in the nine hells is it? XD

From Potm's main page http://www.nwnravenloft.com/
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Our greatest emphasis, however, is on character and story. Our ambition is to set the perfect stage for roleplay, and we strive to hone that in all that we do: both in the depth and details of the world, but also in how the game itself is played. To us, that does not mean hardcore realism with all its tedious micro-management and trivial tasks, but that the world and the gameplay is conceivable as real, even if it is all fantasy. We want to give you the opportunity to feel, think and act like you were there.

To be blunt, Potm is a Gothic horror role-play setting. While realism is important to any game to make it believable to the player, I don't think a starvation system will meaningfully contribute to enjoyable role-play. While the requirements of everyday living shouldn't be ignored, they also shouldn't detract from our focus on Gothic-Horror and the fantasy that comes with it.

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Blight

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2016, 07:12:17 AM »
Prisoners of the Mist is a shared narrative, not a survival simulation. We use the Neverwinter Nights engine because it has been designed in a way that allows and encourages collective storytelling.

The current mechanics already involving eating before resting is tedious as it is and in my opinion does not enhance the shared narrative.  Adding further mechanics to make eating and drinking somehow mandatory tasks only wastes time and could potentially and likely harm the flow of roleplay. I will roleplay eating if I see that the shared narrative would benefit from a pause or break in the current activity. I do not need to have my hand held with forced mechanics to take advantage of those opportunities.

But above all else, our server is a Ravenloft Campaign under the ruleset of Dungeon and Dragons 3.0. The developers time is focused on enhancing our experiences within the ruleset. While occasionally they step out of the lines due to the limitations of the neverwinter nights engine, their intent is not not develop a one-size-fits-all video game.

Without having any sort of insight into the current projects of the development team, I can confidently say that beyond what is already present in the game, a starvation mechanic will never happen, if only because the development teams time is spent on more important projects such as new domains and also because the overshadowing majority of the server is here to play dungeons and dragons, not a survival simulation.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 07:16:06 AM by The Good Doctor »
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Re: Starvation
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2016, 07:55:56 AM »
Prisoners of the Mist is a shared narrative, not a survival simulation. We use the Neverwinter Nights engine because it has been designed in a way that allows and encourages collective storytelling.

The current mechanics already involving eating before resting is tedious as it is and in my opinion does not enhance the shared narrative.  Adding further mechanics to make eating and drinking somehow mandatory tasks only wastes time and could potentially and likely harm the flow of roleplay. I will roleplay eating if I see that the shared narrative would benefit from a pause or break in the current activity. I do not need to have my hand held with forced mechanics to take advantage of those opportunities.

But above all else, our server is a Ravenloft Campaign under the ruleset of Dungeon and Dragons 3.0. The developers time is focused on enhancing our experiences within the ruleset. While occasionally they step out of the lines due to the limitations of the neverwinter nights engine, their intent is not not develop a one-size-fits-all video game.

Without having any sort of insight into the current projects of the development team, I can confidently say that beyond what is already present in the game, a starvation mechanic will never happen, if only because the development teams time is spent on more important projects such as new domains and also because the overshadowing majority of the server is here to play dungeons and dragons, not a survival simulation.

I admire your dedication to rp. Do you guys remember when there was a famine in Barovia and food was scarce? There Was signs on the inns saying there was no food, yet all the merchants were fully stocked. I think if there was a system in place to handle the negative effects of starvation that event would have been better. I remember taking food from the slums morning Lord temple and bringing them into the outskirts to feed everyone. It was disheartening to find that very few were actually rping the hunger. There Was a shortage of food, yet everyone was well feed and healthy. No one seemed to care about that awesome plot point, but it proves that implementing a system like that would be difficult. Lots of people do not like to have thirty characters seem vulnerable. That event could have been great, but missy people ignored the great opportunity to rp
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Mereyn

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2016, 08:04:37 AM »
What you have to keep in mind about that plot in particular is that only Vallaki was starving. Individual outlanders would get by, because they needn't rely on the same
sources as the Barovians do. (or the amounts thereof)

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2016, 08:06:34 AM »
I had a Barovian become a maid for the Garda at that time. She was not paid in coin, but in one meal a day.

One of the guards was obsessed with Mariska's Apple Pie and would send her out to buy it. Thanks to then-DM Tarrokka, Mariska charged more than double the usual price, and it wasn't fresh. So food, or more particularly, the scarcity of food, can add to RP, but handling it with mechanics alone can be very tedious.

Zwickelfaust

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2016, 08:10:44 AM »
Do many typos in my post, my phone had terrible auto correct. Anyway, it makes sense that Outlanders were better off.
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Inti

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2016, 08:42:57 AM »
Prisoners of the Mist is a shared narrative, not a survival simulation...


I don't really have much of a dog in the fight here, but this comment provides an interesting illustration to how differently [what is 'good RP'] can be viewed by different people and how one and the same thing can add to immersion and story for some and detract for others.

I actually like RPing a character react to external factors they -cannot actually- control, rather than 'I am choosing to pretend this is happening because it will make a better story'.  Thus for some people it is quite fulfilling to engage in almost 'text-based' RP and weave their stories that way, while others, myself among them, would welcome a greater degree of realism in the environment for the character to RP against/in response to.  There are also those who choose to side-step the more dramatic/hardcore aspects to just relax by advancing through regular dungeon runs and light banter and would only see any 'extra realism' getting in the way of that.


Overall though, this poll seems to show that here the majority would not welcome that kind of immersion/RP incentive, and may even see it as quite the opposite. Yet a sizable minority would feel it would significantly improve how they experience RP here.

If I had the means to actually lend a hand in bringing this about (and didn't suspect it would be damn fiddly and labour intensive in any case), I may suggest implementing an 'opt-in' system in most areas for those that wish it and perhaps make one of the new zones where it becomes compulsory (as per water in Har'Akir). It may also come into play elsewhere in times of famine and such. Again, I would  'start the hunger timer' only after a person -chose to- rest hungry, thus giving the player a greater degree of control over when and how this becomes an issue. Even the penalties can be staggered: (no prompts or reminder until just before 1st 'very hungry rest'; prompts and eventual light skill and roll penalties after 1st 'very hungry rest'; and prompts and increasing stat penalties after 2nd, 3rd etc. 'very hungry rest'). I mean... most people carry rations with them anyway to heal properly after fights, so this would -only- become relevant if access to food is problematic for IG story reasons.


Anyway... not having this is less of an issue for me than seeing people who have just been raised from dead  to immediately start running around and acting as if nothing happened, and other immersion breakers of that kind.  But I would not complain or tell off the player, since  I've made peace with the fact that we have quite a mix of playing styles here.

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dazza555

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2016, 12:17:47 PM »
I briefly played on a server that wouldn't allow you to rest in armour unless you were playing a class specifically adapted for that kind of thing like fighter, barbarian or ranger. Other classes would face some kind of penalty. The attention to detail was amazing, you had to unequip weapons in order to do things like pick locks and climb ropes because you generally need your hands free for that kind of thing. There was also an interesting mechanic where you would be paralysed for a few rounds whenever removing or equiping heavy armour to add realism to the time consuming process of it.

Not really relevant to my own op. I was just citing an example of server realism that worked.

booksarefun666

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2016, 01:16:46 AM »
"Anyway... not having this is less of an issue for me than seeing people who have just been raised from dead  to immediately start running around and acting as if nothing happened, and other immersion breakers of that kind.  But I would not complain or tell off the player, since  I've made peace with the fact that we have quite a mix of playing styles here."

The guys that eat, drink, and bathe in full plate and try to make their full plate look like clothes with the robe function because of the vague possibility of encountering an assassin rustles my jimmies too, but at you're not alone when it comes to noticing minor things. :p

I wouldn't mind a starvation function, but food isn't especially scarce anywhere and even a caliban runt can murderize a deer for an easy meal or buy one in the drain if he has a few coins so nobody would see the bad end of the starvation stick. It already affects how much hp you regain in resting though, so it's at least something.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 01:18:18 AM by booksarefun666 »

Revenant

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2016, 03:53:18 AM »
For those that wish to RP starvation, hunger, etc. - they already can. If they're so dedicated to this "realistic" rp, there is truly nothing stopping them. I've seen time and again people pausing from their adventures to have a meal in the Lady's Rest, talking over their stories and journeys together, adding that "extra bit" as it were, and all without prompting from a little red box at the top right of their screen.

Nothing about a starvation feature would be particularly enhancing to RP. Those of us that want it may already eat as we please. To add a mechanical impetus will result in people pausing mid-RP to devour a number of items from their inventory. Imagine, if you will, a gathering of Ezrties, preaching to those they seek to convert - only to stop mid-way through to scarf down a number of bland rations from their inventory to satisfy a mechanical demand.

The time scale of a proposed hunger system and the time scale of a given player's roleplay may not necessarily align. This could cause immersion breaks in its own right, as we see people [Using a small, square item] in the middle of a tense conversation. I believe an opt-in hunger system would also be questionable in use - people may already opt-in to acting out their own hunger, and if they are so dedicated to nailing down realistic survival RP such as starvation and draught, they are free to do so already - nothing is preventing them from setting a timetable for their characters to eat and to adjust behaviour according to said timetable.

To implement a system that forces a mechanical impetus for "realistic RP" upon everyone is to force your ideals of what constitutes "good RP" upon everyone, and I don't believe that's something Ravenloft is interested in doing. In all but the most dire, grimdark, lost-in-the-woods PnP campaigns I've taken part in, consumption of food has largely been handled by an exchange of currency and a brief sentence acknowledging its consumption. This is because even in a setting such as Ravenloft, where you have desperate peasants scrabbling for the coin to get a fresh pair of shoes, the majority of player characters are /not/ these peasants - they are adventurers, hunters, guardsmen, people who have a reasonable expectation to not be starving or begging for handouts, whether for the coin they have or their personal ability to generate sustenance.

And, should you decide to play a destitute beggar, or a Gundarakite who has been barred from all but the shadiest of establishment and has little way of making ends meet? Then you would be welcome to portray this, to present yourself as a starving pauper or a struggling survivalist. A lack of mechanical representation of starvation prevents you from doing this no more than a lack of mechanical representation prevents a wizard or sorcerer from "practicing" new spells. If anything, not being forced to consume arbitrarily obtained items on a server-clocked timetable allows you to be more flexible with your starvation-focused RP, and thus add this atmospheric element at a time and place of your choosing, such that it contributes the most to the overall tone and narrative of the server.
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Syl

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2016, 07:15:43 AM »
"starvation" or at least RP wise can be notices as a game mechanice already but not a life or death one. As mentioned a few times if you don't eat and you just rest you'll only get so much health back. This is often more noticed on characters that A: don't have any food. B: can't start a fire. C: not welcomed anywhere else and has limited locations they can go to.

My tiefling Sirius, for the longest time I swore he had a flint on him... well turns out I was wrong and for the better part of a month RL he was unable to cook his meal. Now sure he could go down into the drain... BUT he was also limited on gold, and isn't the biggest fan of the Drain. so I basically only got healed when there was a server reset.  thus limiting how much health he got back. even from bandaging. if you don't eat you don't get all your recovery health.

I'm normally for making the server a bit harder, I recall a time when finding a +1 ab weapon was like a gift from the gods. adding starvation wont add to anything, everyone eats when they have to IG and they make comments and asks if anyone has food.

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ethinos

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2016, 04:05:14 PM »
My tiefling Sirius, for the longest time I swore he had a flint on him... well turns out I was wrong and for the better part of a month RL he was unable to cook his meal. Now sure he could go down into the drain... BUT he was also limited on gold, and isn't the biggest fan of the Drain. so I basically only got healed when there was a server reset.  thus limiting how much health he got back. even from bandaging. if you don't eat you don't get all your recovery health.

For future reference, you can cook meat over the cookpot placeable at the Vistani camp near the Outskirts. I asked for that feature to be added awhile ago.
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Syl

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2016, 09:07:20 PM »
My tiefling Sirius, for the longest time I swore he had a flint on him... well turns out I was wrong and for the better part of a month RL he was unable to cook his meal. Now sure he could go down into the drain... BUT he was also limited on gold, and isn't the biggest fan of the Drain. so I basically only got healed when there was a server reset.  thus limiting how much health he got back. even from bandaging. if you don't eat you don't get all your recovery health.

For future reference, you can cook meat over the cookpot placeable at the Vistani camp near the Outskirts. I asked for that feature to be added awhile ago.

I totally didn't know such would work lol I never even thought of trying but... then again why would he use someone else's? lol But still The more you know. :D

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bocian

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2016, 06:58:12 AM »
Remember one thing - we are playing on a role playing server. I believe that we don't need mechanical changes to help us roleplay better. At least that's how I see it. The system that we have at the moment is annoying enough, my character goes hungry even when I'm not logged on, there are no prompts reminding me about the fact, and I tend to forget to "use that ration object in my inventory". Using objects in inventory is hardly a role playing action - that's why, when I have the occasion, I am RP-ing ordering food, or preparing it myself, same as I'm RP-ing bathing and washing clothes. That means, not so often as a character would do that in real life, but enough to just point out the fact that it happens. That is a game, and a game, even if we play it realistically, has its specifics.
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Blight

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2016, 03:06:24 PM »
To me this thread seems kind of pointless. The people who are advocating for a starvation mechanic don't really need one. There is nothing at all stopping them from role-playing hunger and starvation right now.  They could do it, and there's no reason not to if this is the rp they desire. The request to add such a mechanic doesn't add anything to their roleplay, it only forces  -others- to roleplay in accordance with the mechanic. Which isn't in the spirit of the server, at least in my opinion.

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Re: Starvation
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2016, 05:49:28 AM »
Well before we talk about adding in a starvation system (which I would be in favour of if it was done correctly) we should really talk about the existing hunger/first system. As it is now, it's quite old and under used. It doesn't make a lot of sense either. There are water canteens that work, and water canteens that don't, we have rivers and streams and lakes everywhere but outside of Har'Akir I don't actually think you can fill them up. We have a fishing rod, but we can't fish. We can hunt deer, and squirrel (and other things), but instead of getting venison or squirrel meat when we cook over camp fires, we get manufactured tinned cans. How do we get tinned cans? We can't even bake a loaf of bread.

I think a better hunger/first system would first of all encourage more people to use it, because I have a suspicion that the vast majority of players never pay attention to hunger and thirst, I do sometimes, but very very rarely. We could do some fairly simple changes to improve it, we don't have to put penalties on people who don't use it, but I think we can see a benefit from fleshing it out a little, make it more fun and meaningful to play with. Here's what I think could be done.

1) Replace tinned cans with glass jars. I loathe those tinned cans lol, Glass jars make more sense for the vast majority of the domains technical limit, tin cans became used around about the early 1800's, Gothic Earth characters can't come from time periods later than 1650 so I feel it doesn't really add up properly. Now I don't know if any of the Ravenoft realms have developed tin cans specifically, but it just seems a little jarring to have them. If we wanted to manufacture glass jars it would seem to me too fit better than tinned cans, sand deposits, a shovel, and a coal furnace would easily craft glass jars in game, much more plausible than tinned cans.

2) Deer's drop raw venison, squirrel drops squirrel meat, throw in some game birds and we have raw poultry. Cooking meat over fire creates a few pieces of cooked meat, not tinned cans.

3) One glass jar + raw meat with campfire = rations. Rations have X number of uses, so they can be used multiple times to simulate preservation in glass jars with cork tops to re-seal. I think the only suitable looking items in game for containers aren't stack able, so that gets around the none stacking issue.

4) Create locations to fish in streams and rivers. Fish can be eaten raw or cooked.

5a) Create some basic baking, flour, water, salt, yeast, ovens = loaves of bread. Bread is a staple food source and it would accommodate characters who don't eat meat to actually make their own baked bread as rations.

5b) Make some generic vegetables/edible plants relieve hunger so character who don't eat meat can forage for food.

6) Create filling locations for canteens. OK so this one would take time but frankly it's something that can be done slowly, to explain how not every water source is going to be a filling point, we just say that water sources that don't have a filling point are not fresh water, its polluted due to human/animal waste, contains parasites or water born plagues, or just local superstition means locals don't use it. We could even create water based monsters, that randomly spawn demons, or mischievous water spirits that drag people to their deaths. It would be great to have monster that drag people into the lakes and drown them in the underwater areas, or just jump out of the lake and fight you, the Vallaki lake is supposed to be full of sea monsters.

7) Cooking should take a little bit of time, make the character do an animation over the camp fire instead of BAM instantly created tinned food.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 05:55:56 AM by dark_majico »