Starvation

[dazza555]

It doesn't have to be too fancy. A penalty to physical stats that become more extreme as malnutrition sets in. Much like raise fatigue and how that can't be cured with restoration. I think it will add another layer to the whole desperate survival metagame.

What would be even better if recovery effects weren't immediate. Say you were facing large physical penalties for not eating in awhile. Having a large meal won't suddenly fix that either. Recovery would be gradual.

[ILLY6666]

I think the basic concept is great, but I have two observations based on previous experiences that had similar systems.

On Arelith this hunger/thirst ticks way too fast which means any prolonged conversations are interrupted by the sudden craving TO BINGE EAT UNTIL YOU ARE FINE.
Generally, people see it as a hindrance more than anything especially because it offers no positives, only musts.

ThayPW's system is that you regain a few hitpoints whenever you eat and are hungry. Amount depends a little on HOW hungry you were and eating when you're not does nothing.
Now, they also allowed their hunger system to be turned off. Which meant you don't get the boons but you don't have to eat or drink either.

TL:DR;
- Don't make a system that ticks too fast.
- Possibly make it optional
- Have a boon to being satiated and not just the requirement of hunger.

[Night of Reod]

 As much as I like the idea of adding more RP elements, I don't think this is a good idea and my argument against it is pretty much why most major RPG titles don't have starvation as a feature.

 Unless you design your game around it, starvation doesn't really add much to the game. You either remember to have food with you, or you suffer for it. It adds more mental strain on the player's end, more things to keep track of, and possibly quite major consequences without adding any real game play other then talking to an NPC and buying ration items. It would also require periodic messages to remind people to buy and eat food, which is more work developers have to deal with. I think at its best, it doesn't really add much to the game, and at worse it makes the game less fun.

 The whole desperate survival idea is really cool if you design your game around it, but otherwise it is often best left alone.

[DM Erebus]

I echo many of Night of Reod's comments. I love a good survival game, but PotM is not a survival game. Food is plentiful and easy to come by and carrying capacity, though buffs and bags and whatnot, isn't any sort of real limit on how much you can haul.
A penalty, therefore, for not eating, would just be another thing to keep track of. I just assume that my characters' basic needs are met when i'm not around.

I'd be all for a cooking system which gives (small) buffs, rather than penalties, but i'm not volunteering.

[Inti]

I think it ll depends how exactly it's implemented. I think, since food is quite easy to get, it shouldn't suddenly turn the place into a survivalist setting.

The fact is, while some would find it an unnecessary annoyance, plenty of others would find it an actual RP and immersion aid, another level of realism to interact with.

How about this: the 'countdown' to stat penalties only kicks in if you Rest on a totally empty stomach (the current 'weakened perception, etc.' message).  So basically, you retain a degree of control over whether it becomes an issue or not (in terms of being prompted with messages and sustaining increasing penalties). At the very extreme end of the penalties, you would actually have to rest on a 'full stomach' to recover, while lighter ones can be removed by just eating stuff.

And yeah, any cooking craft system (which would be a pretty cool addition in itself) could be made to play into the above in some ways.

[Arawn]

While I see your point, Inti, that system would effectively become much more punishing for casting classes and basically not effect non-casting classes, just because of the way the mechanics of NWN work.

We've considered making starvation more punishing a few times. In general, the consensus centers around the fact that we're not sure exactly how much this would add to RP (especially because there really isn't a part of our server that is far away from available food) and instead just become an irritating chore.

[Inti]

While I see your point, Inti, that system would effectively become much more punishing for casting classes and basically not effect non-casting classes, just because of the way the mechanics of NWN work.

We've considered making starvation more punishing a few times. In general, the consensus centers around the fact that we're not sure exactly how much this would add to RP (especially because there really isn't a part of our server that is far away from available food) and instead just become an irritating chore.

Well, maybe I don't have a clear understanding of the rest-hunger dynamic, since I thought that hunger depended on time alone and was not related to how often you rested. If the only thing that depends on food is HP recovery during Rest, and casters tend to get wounded a lot less in battle - I suppose you have a point where they could just forget about food altogether for many days on end... - Thus if you are on a hunt where you are expected to rest several times to recover spells, you will have to have some rations/food on you - just in case you hit that 'extreme hunger' end mid-stride.

Just to make clear - I'm not suggesting you wake up on a 'hunger penalty' countdown each time you failed to eat just before Rest, only if you Rested at the current 'extreme hunger' end of things. It would not kick in at all before you choose to rest in such a state. Anyway, I don't claim to know the hard-coded intricacies of NWN, just putting forward a possible way this may work.


Perhaps the more important question is, indeed, how it would enrich RP? Since, I'm quite aware it may do so for some, but for others not so much, it may be worth thinking of how to make this kind of thing optional (heck, on some servers even permadeath is optional, though I'm yet to get my head around that one.)


Since, like the original poster here, I'm more on the 'hardcore' side of things in my tastes, I know it would give a more real extension to RPing such things like illness, 'being lost in the wilderness' (or in the mists), loss of desire to eat due to grief, shock ... fear of poisoning, exile from civilized areas + inability to hunt for some reason.

As for no part of the server where lack of food may become a real problem...  I don't know what development (or 'metaplot') plans you guys may have, but perhaps one day such a place would appear (e.g. Borca) or certain existing parts of the server (e.g. Hazlan, perhaps even Barovia and Dementlieu) going through periods of famine or poor harvest.  Anyway, I better stop right here, before the ideas popping into my head right now force me to go and submit a DM application due to their sheer force of numbers. 

[Phantasia]

Played on Arelith for a minute where they had that tic system. Just became an annoying chore to be honest, and offered no stimulating reason to keep your numbers in check. Your character just slumped every two seconds because you're engaged in lengthy RP and can't get to any food. No thanks.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Generally with systems like this you want to add, not take away. Something that gives a small bonus for eating regularly would be good.

[Norture]

Played on Arelith for a minute where they had that tic system. Just became an annoying chore to be honest, and offered no stimulating reason to keep your numbers in check. Your character just slumped every two seconds because you're engaged in lengthy RP and can't get to any food. No thanks.

This sounds like a good reason to not have it. Maybe if you're out dungeoning or something fast paced a survival system would make sense, but imagine what would happen at long drawn out RP sessions such as plays or DM events. The disconnect between game time and ig hunger vs real life time passage would be really jarring, because we use real life time during RP sessions.

[Nemesis 24]

Yeah, my initial vote was yes - but reading more into it, going to slide back into a no.  It does sound more trouble than its worth all round.

[Night of Reod]

Played on Arelith for a minute where they had that tic system. Just became an annoying chore to be honest, and offered no stimulating reason to keep your numbers in check. Your character just slumped every two seconds because you're engaged in lengthy RP and can't get to any food. No thanks.

This sounds like a good reason to not have it. Maybe if you're out dungeoning or something fast paced a survival system would make sense, but imagine what would happen at long drawn out RP sessions such as plays or DM events. The disconnect between game time and ig hunger vs real life time passage would be really jarring, because we use real life time during RP sessions.

 I agree with this, and I think the water/thirst system in Har'Akir is a good example of this. It doesn't add much gameplay, but it adds to the atmosphere of the place and it is fun to make someone the waterboy whenever you go to Har'Akir. But it just works in the specific circumstances of Har'Akir, I wouldn't want to deal with it all the time. Perhaps a similar mechanic could be implemented if a new area that would lend itself to it ever gets added?

[FinalHeaven]

I'm in favor of systems that add something rather than take away.

I've never taken a water source with me in Har'Akir for instance because I find the system tedious and it doesn't set me back any not to have one.

[Dud_Goose]

I've never taken a water source with me in Har'Akir for instance because I find the system tedious and it doesn't set me back any not to have one.

Yeah, I agree.  Other than the quick message about being thirsty, there doesn't seem to me to be any mechanical incentive to stay hydrated in the desert.

[Night of Reod]

It does reduce your saves and some skills eventually, though the only time I saw that was when I had a lengthy RP session at the oasis there I think.

[FinalHeaven]

It does reduce your saves and some skills eventually, though the only time I saw that was when I had a lengthy RP session at the oasis there I think.

Interesting.  I've never encountered it, even after a few hours spent in the desert both with and without combat.  I wonder if the system needs looking in to.

[Knight of Rhodes]

This is not accurate. Enable your debug messages so that you can see the numerical value for your exhaustion. Each time the thirsty message hits, it adds 1 to your exhaustion. The longer you are thirsty, the more often the messages show!

[Night of Reod]

This is not accurate. Enable your debug messages so that you can see the numerical value for your exhaustion. Each time the thirsty message hits, it adds 1 to your exhaustion. The longer you are thirsty, the more often the messages show!

 I don't see how this means thirst doesn't have additional penalties as it gets worse.

[Dud_Goose]

I know we all play heroes, but even a matter of hours in the desert sun without adequate hydration can be crippling, especially for anyone with less than ideal health. 

Are there pnp guidelines to starvation/thirst for 3.5? 

[rapsam2003]

I know we all play heroes, but even a matter of hours in the desert sun without adequate hydration can be crippling, especially for anyone with less than ideal health. 

Are there pnp guidelines to starvation/thirst for 3.5?

There are exhaustion rules and such in the DMG/SRD. There's also stuff about surviving in a desert: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#starvationAndThirst

[NecropolisV]

I voted yes to begin with. I'm really fond of the thirst system used in Har 'akir as yes the longer you go without drinking there the faster you become exhausted! I wouldn't mind this being a thing with that in mind where if you went too long without drinking or eating you became exhausted easier, though anything more serious would become a crippling chore

[ladylena]

I can see why it would take away from the setting if it's not well thought out and planned. If a system could be implemented for it, it could perhaps function the same as exhaustion? 

Now I have no idea how the coding works. But if it were possible to set a time limit on when the hunger would add to the exhaustion? Like a tick every 8 hours? I could see it adding a neat element to the rp if/when a cooking system is in place. It could become part of a rp. Dungeoning or what have you, and you are all waiting to rest cause it needs like 2 hours or something, during this time, the two could be combined. You could rp cooking a meal and it would encourage players to eat.

But on it's own, I can see it being a pain in kiester.

[Syl]

I do recall not drinking often in the desert it did begin to reduce your skills and saves, I don't recall how long it took, nor if it is still around. I always thought such was a cool thing in the desert.

I don't see a need to add in starvation since not eating already has it's drawbacks IG and that is reduced health return upon resting.

Forcing us to eat more often while interesting is far more a hindrance.

[Zwickelfaust]

I like how when you are hungry, you don't get hit points back from rest. I think it would be cool that when your hunger gets really bad, when you rest, it takes away hit points. Sure, you can get them back through healing, but after so long the amount drained from rest would exceed the amount of hit points you have. Go to sleep one night and never wake up because you starved to death. It would take longer for higher levels to die, as they are tougher. Barbarians and the like would fare better too. Just a thought.

[NancyTehVampyre]

I echo many of Night of Reod's comments. I love a good survival game, but PotM is not a survival game.

Pardon, but, if PoTM is not a survival game, then what in the nine hells is it? XD

PoTM is all about survival, the fear, the needing to live another day.

And about food in abundance; food should be more difficult to procure in that there should be a cooking skill to see if you can even cook what you DO find and not ruin it (unless you're buying food).

There should be a penalty for sleeping outdoors without a bedroll and tent imo too; which gets worse with weather conditions, because not only will it add onto the RP -- it'd stop people from randomly deciding to flop over wherever and ruin emergence.

To anyone who thinks that there would be no RP element to needing to eat and drink, you are sorely mistaken, because what more reason is there to RP than to stop and make camp on treks to make food, talk to the other players' characters and sit and huddle around a fire and fear for the night should it be falling before you reach your destination.

I think people take the server way too much by its mechanics rather than all the true-world RP elements that can and should be implemented into RP.

It's one of the points I've come to dislike from the server, this server is good, I am not saying it is not -- but, a lot of people never RP as much as they should and want everything to revolve around dungeoning and killing things (which again, is not bad, it's something people should be able to do if they want).

But, not having something that WOULD VERY, VERY MUCH enhance RP and the fear factor of the server and the importance of tactics, skill and speed to move with the fading light of day as well as ensure your character actually has real world characteristics to make things even stronger, more beautifully constructed in terms of realism for the RP'ers soul -- just because it'd mean you need to be realistic about what you carry around -- such as prepared rations, camping gear and the ability to make food -- when trekking around the vast, wide server -- because it'd mean you need to Gods forbid need to ACTUALLY slow down a little and enjoy the realistic RP air the server could offer ..

I think it's silly.